I also agree with Brad, I like deals same as anyone, but the current state of most stores is a risk. I would like some better insurance that the 100-200+ fish are going to survive.

Lee

So how about we ban their import. Or at a minimum ask all the stores to only carry the cultured stock.
It is pretty hard for a newbie and his girlfriend to say no to a clownfish no matter what it would cost. IMO it is one of the first fish a newbie buys as it represents the marine hobby. Look at Canreefs logo and others.
Think about it. Would a newbie pay ten dollars more for a clownfish

The LFS in Victoria would tell you to get stuffed!! They generally don't give a damn about livestock. Fish and corals are a commodity. Bottom line is profit and can they afford that new truck they've been looking at. I tried to explain to my LFS that anemones are not a good choice for the average aquarist. Biggest seller we have, she claims! And she's right. I see 5 or 6 new anemones come in every shipment. Some die, some get sold (and then die). Exuse me ma'am, should I buy an anemone with this here clowny fish?? You bet, maybe buy two so it can choose!! And it happens everyday in every city that has a LFS. Asking any store to do the right thing in lieu of profit is going to get you tossed from the LFS PDQ!!!

Thats why we need a law.
We can start on trying to ban the import of fish and coral which we all know has no chance of success in even the experts tanks like many butterflyfish for example.
And even if they dont like to hear it, we should voice our unhappyness with what we see. We should also only support those shops which have some ethical standards.

naesco, who is going to pass this law? Nobody! And since we make up such a small part of the purchasing force in any LFS, they couldn't give a damn if you supported them or not. Let's face it, you aren't good for business. You tell other customers about J&L, you talk customers out of buying things and you buy most of your stuff online. I for one am surprised my LFS even lets me in the door. If I told her I was going to shop on the other side of town, she'd pay for a cab!!
Now don't get me wrong, I agree fully with the intent of this topic, but reality is this. You and I are nothing to the average retail fish/pet store. They would rather we went to the competition and told their customers about online prices.
To make us happy, they would have to hire more people and take home less money.
I learned something long ago while working for a pet chain ....if you like animals, the pet business is not the place to be. If a fish gets sick, you flush it. Flushing is cheaper than medicating. If a customer asks if the tang fits in the 20g, you say yes. Sell 'em a bigger tank next month, but don't let them leave with money!! I got in trouble for not selling those little blocks to feed your fish for a month while you're on holidays! Sell the customer what they think they want and smile as you tanke their money. That is what the retail LFS biz is all about. Once in a while you see a decent moral store in business, but not very often.

Brad the mentality that; it can't be fixed so why bother, is why there are such critical issues with the hobby now. It's only a matter of time before some organization does get up a head of steam and forces through some laws that either stop the hobby dead in its tracks or put a serious rise in pricing. The state of our oceans in general is depressing and the people that care are eyeballing this hobby as a needless drain on natural resource. It doesn't matter if hobby impact is minimal compared with other more destructive practices, they'll look at it as one small step towards a greater goal. I don't deny what your saying, only that they can't and won't continue to make unethical choices in the fish/coral industry. Your absolutely right about the stores caring about profit and that is precisely why we need a law that says; if said animal is available captive bred it is illegal to bring in wild caught specimens. How to implement that is another question.

I was very vocal with John and Grant about bringing in captive bred and both have tried. Both said that almost every customer asks why the clown on the left is more than the one in the other tank. "It's captive bred.""I'll take the cheaper one, its colours are a little brighter." I can see an easy way of avoiding that; don't have two different choices. If people can't understand the importance of captive raised stock then screw them. If you take a clown from an anemone the anemone dies, if the anemone is taken the clowns die. There are two species affected by the collection of one or both. People can't figure it out then they don't get to make the choice, that's how it should be and in the not to distant future, how it will be.

Well I, for one, was so excited to see that J&L had brought in captive raised fish. While they weren't exactly the ones I would have chosen (yes I know there aren't that many species that are being aquacultured yet), It certainly opened my eyes to fish that I chould be thinking about having in my tank. I mean an orchid dottyback is one beautiful fish, and hey I wanted a royal gramma but the dottyback is pretty nice and aquacultured so why not, as long as its compatible with my other fish (yes Brad, I buy them because they are pretty :P). Now that I hear that they are sending shipments back due to low demand I am very disappointed.

Living here in Nanaimo, I have virtually no access to any livestock. I went down to Victoria this past Saturday and was absolutely horrified in one store to see at least one dead fish in each tank and one tank that had a large angel (not sure what kind) that had some sort of tumors growing all over it. Their reef tank had several bleached corals and a medium sized caulastrea that was selling for $459!! (I'm not quite sure if that was a typo or if it was one of those "rare" corals that victoria LFS love to carry). The last time I was in there there were no less than 6 dying rotting anemones in another tank that wiped out almost every coral that was in there including a couple of shrimp. I can honestly say that I am no longer interested in ever going to that store again. I would be scared to buy anything from there. And I have had this experience with another store in Victoria as well. Consequently I have one store left to go to in Victoria. (Vancouver here I come! :D ).

Now I really enjoy going into fish stores and having a look even if I don't buy (which I usually do). I have absolutely no problem paying $10 more for an aquacultured fish. NONE. Thats only because I know fish. I don't necessarily know tropical marine fish per se, but I know fish. I know that a aquacultured fish will take alot more stress and adapt to its new environment a heck of alot faster than a wild one and you know, if I go buy a wild fish and it croaks, I will want another one eventually which means a heck of alot more than the $10 I could have saved if I had bought the cultured one which more than likely would have survived in my tank. After my credit card recovers from my purchase at seacare (hey did you know they were having a sale?? :lol: ). I will be getting an orchid dottyback from J&L (if they have any left).

Anyway, I'm finished ranting ;)

Christy:)

PS. Somebody tell me if that LFS stuff I put in there is a no no.

Wow, what a fabulous discussion.

Christy, no no-no. Excellent points.

Troy, wow. Awesome points. I agree: when the choice is available, let's remove the choice. If customers are going to whine about an extra $10, then it's time to get out that typical LFS superiority attitude, and give the speech that since they're captive bred, it's better for the hobby, it's better for the animals, and it's better for the buyers. If they still have a problem, well I guess you can't please everyone.

Brad's totally right, the average consumer is probably a total idiotic twat. It's going to be an uphill battle to convince them one-by-one. So if they're incapable of making the right decisions, then let's make them incapable of making the wrong decision.

Steve, I know you say you'd just buy the cheaper option, but I look at your setup, and I look at your toys er tools and camera and stuff, and I look at your photographs .... and I know there's no way you're not convinced that superior products are more important than just good deals every time.

The problem with captive raised is it requires an investment, and so to make the effort worthwhile, there has to be return on that investment. So, maybe the answer is in part to artificially inflate the price of wild-caught. Obviously that would have to be done at the govenmental level by introducing levies or taxes or duties, because otherwise it's just going into somebody's pocket, and that's no answer either (the idea is to discourage the excessive import of wild-caught).

Just my $0.02. I know that I tend to take a naive view on things, but it really does seem unsustainable as it is right now, doesn't it. We'll need to do something, eventually.

Troy, I think the problem with enforcing a law, providing you can find someone to do so, is it promotes another avenue of abuse. The wild caught will still be caught but just passed off as captive raised/bred. How is anyone going to monitor these fish? Certifications? I can print those right now. I think it is a very noble idea to wish for a law like this, but it isn't going to happen. There may very well be a law banning all fish because it's easier and takes less administration.
I also have met LFS owners that do care, but they are either broke or already out of business.
I would like to see a survey done summarizing how many people in North America have a marine tank and how many of them think the fish in it are real live animals(rathr than ornaments). I think it would be a dismal account of our hobby.
On the law thing again, I was talking to my wife who thought it was a good idea. She also thought it would be good to expand it to dogs and cats. No selling of dogs or cats as long as some were available inexpensively at the pound. Afterall, they'll be put down if they don't find homes.
How about people. Maybe we need to stop letting people in the country as long as residents here need jobs. Troy, I can relate the intent of your law to almost any facet of our society. Wonderful in theory and intent. Just not practical to implement.

You say "If people can't understand, then screw them" As far as the LFS is concerned, that's screwing 99% of their customers!!! Not good business sense!
I agree that removing the choice is the only thing that will work, and if the LFS only had 24 dollar clowns, they would sell. It escapes me why they don't. I guess my LFS would just raise the price of wild caught to match the captive raised down the street. More profit that way.
Until the government comes to the LFS and dicatates what they can and can't sell, which is nevergoing to happen, things will remain as they are.
I know you don't like to hear that, but that's the way I see things. I hope one day you can make me eat these words though...really, I do!!

I believe in the Open Market Supply and Demand model for Economics. What'll happen when the price goes up and you keep the supply and demand curves constant is that you'll have lots of excess inventory of clowns left over because the demand for clowns is less at the higher price. For $24, people who only want to buy $15 clowns will now buy a tang or something "better" instead. What'll happen then is that sales of tangs or other substitutes go up and then you create pressures on other species. :) :)