actualy trust me.. walking him through it isn't a good idea.... at all....

Steve

actualy I was reading a few threads last night after work on people pushing the 3 year mark with there DIY LED setups and from the pictures they are getting good results. one guy posted pictures every 2 or 3 months and you could see the improvment in each one over his MH lights.

granted most are just hitting the 1 year mark now but there are some hitting two and 3 years of sucess. and concidering how often you ripp your tank down and start over..... :mrgreen: seriously though

LEDs have been used sucessfully in growing plants for over 7 years now, so it is proven that they provide the nessasary requirments for photosynthis... it just took a few more years to develop the power needed to punch through water :wink:

Steve

Yes I agree with the theory but that's all it really is, a theory. Solaris fixtures came out in 2007, that was 4 years ago and yet no price drop in LED fixtures yet, some cost more. So in another 3 years you expect to see a 75% reduction in price? Give me a break dude. I'll put money down that LED fixtures will not drop more than 20% in the next three years, if that.

OP was based on 100 gallons, and how do you get enough LEDs, drivers and heat sink to replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental for $1200? That's more than 200 LEDs which will cost over $2000 with basic drivers and a heatsink. Also 300W of LED will not replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental, they aren't that efficient. And supplemental is an option, you could run 14-20K halides and be satisfied, if you added supplemental to 10K halides you would need even more LEDs to compensate.

Of course the bigger you go the more money you'll save and the shorter the payback but put your application on the 100gallon size range as requested.

As for a chiller, it's a moo point, I've always ran halides and never used one.

Lastly if you compare pricing over the lifespan of the LEDs then you must include the cost of replacing all LEDs after 11 years.

There is of course big potentials for saving with LEDs but not so much with the average size tank, you will still save money but it can take a few years before you break even which is simply something to think about and be aware of. If someone is setting up a 90 gallon tank and wants to use LEDs with the intent to save money then they better make sure they will be keeping the tank long enough to make it worth while. As for you guys with 300+ gallon tanks, yes I get it.

I just use cheap China MH bulbs - 3 years worth for just over $100 (9 x 250 watt halides) :biggrin:

oh so many and where do I start.. sphelps, I am not even sure if it is worth it with you as you are a die hard anti-LED person anyways but

as for the original poster and a 100 gal, doesn't matter as for my example I said we would use brads tank.

sorry I did make a little mistake. its actualy 432 watts of LED so I have to add 13% to the power usage. I changed the current I am going to drive them at. you know what.. lets add another 48 LEDs and setup so i'll take it up to 1600 bucks for you and it will be about 576 watts so now were running at 1/3 the power so the actual 8 bucks a month I used in the example so power costs are actual to my example now as I over estimated the Led usage to start as for efficiency.. the best MH is about 88 lumin/watt LEDs are now getting close to 150 lumin/watt now as for 300- 500 watts of LED replacing 1200 watt of MH.. actualy easy. you don't think you getting any where near the full 1200 watts of light into that tank do you? I would hazord to guess at most your getting a 75% efficiency of light transfer even with a very good reflector. and that is a very generous guess. with LEDs you are getting 100% of the light into the tank. when they start making MH bulbs that only shine on one side then well be revisiting this one :mrgreen:

yes and no.. the money value gets bigger but the % should remain simular

good for you.. so have I and I found the problems were from not having a chiller. where you live in your house you may not need one.. do you have central air, do you have low humidity? if you have high humidity remember the heat transfer due to evaporation is going to suck.

nope, cuz at the 50,000 hours the LEDs are rated to only lose 15-20% of there output with no color change.. LEDs lose that during the break in so realy you could keep on using the LEDs for a long time after this

I do a comparason for the 30 gal I am building for you after I take the kids to school

Steve

I'm not anti LED, I run LEDs right now on a nano and I'm considering LEDs on my 100 gallon. I just look at things from both sides rather than forming bias opinions and examples to prove a point. You need 1 LED for every 12 square inches, 3 400W halides can easily light a 9 foot x 3 foot area with the right reflectors and you could keep anything you want under that. You would need 324 LEDs to replace that and that's 900W. So it's all on how you look at it and how you compare, very easy to come up with bias examples to support either side. Here's another one:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/review
That tank will require on the low side 1 LED per 15sqin meaning close to 270 LEDs or 810W

I think it's just hilarious how some people worship LEDs like it's the second coming of Christ, they just simply aren't as good as some people seem to think. Yes they are a good option but certainly not the only one or always the best.

I'm not trying to support or not support LEDs, OP asked about LEDs for a 100 gallon, since I'm considering the same thing and have experience with almost all forms of lighting I simply stated the saving will not be "huge" and it may not be worth while if the tank won't be kept for long term and if the goal is better color for SPS.

Steve, do you even currently run an LED setup on one of your tanks? Has anyone run an LED fixture for 11 years and compared PAR ratings?

I think the overall tone of the topic is that nobody is really sure..ok, they look pretty, they can do lightning storms and adjust color a bit. But my primary objective is to grow the blueist and purplist corals I can, long term. I don't believe that LEDs can do that (yet?). Also, the cost over five years, for new lighting setups may be beneficial over five years, but I couldn't afford a LED fixture up front, even if it's going to save me money in the long term. I can however afford 300/yr for bulbs over the next five years without a problem. It's the same principle of my mortgage, I'd save tons if I had that kind of cash :)
I have run 400w radiums for years, and continue to do so. I can find years worth of awesome tanks running the same config, so I know that these do the job I need done. LED, at this point, is still a lot of speculation on what MAY be a good lighting system 4 or 5 years down the road.
No lighting system is the best for every application, so one needs to decide what is best for their application, and for me, the MHs are the system of choice. Maybe it costs me more over 5 years, but so what? This isn't a budget hobby, and for my money, I know what I'm getting in terms of light. It's tried and true. 5 years from now, I may look at LED when it's affordable by the common peasant, but for now, to me anyway, it's a rich man's lighting experiment!!

This is probably a dumb question but I have three little LED light fixtures (Robot LED IQ3) that I use for a nano and within a month on one of them 3 of the 12 lights just stopped working (3 in a row.) One of my fears of going to LED's for my 120 G someday is that I get an expensive commercial system (Vertex etc) and there is so many more parts to break on it. I hate hassle's and having to deal with manufcturers etc. With my Sunlight Maristar MH T5 combo I know it could break too but it just seems to me it would be alot easier to take care of and less opportunity for something to malfunction (just in sheer number of parts and complexity)....?

good point...

I guess if I applied my logic to cars i should be driving a vintage automobile and I am not. But lately for a lot of tings you have to bring your car to the dealer to get it fixed due to computers and specialized engineering. Will there be a local certified repair specialist for my sophisticated LED fixture?...

Some interesting comments for sure. Just for fun, I'll throw in my 2cents.

LED technology is not new and unproven. In fact, it is completely proven by many successful tanks. Fewer here in Canada but there are lot's of success stories on RC and LED lighting is hugely popular in Europe.

With that in mind, there are very few LED solutions that are really ready for mainstream SPS tanks and can fully replace MH lighting. In my opinion, the short list is Vertex Illumina 260, Pacific Sun and ReefTech. All of these solutions will exceed the PAR output of a 250W MH and depending on the configuration will also exceed the PAR output of a 400W MH. All of these solutions are fully controllable with rising sun/Kelvin/Lighting/Etc.

There are of course many niche players in the LED market place, but in my opinion, none of the other solutions are ready for full SPS tanks. There are many reasons for this including light spread, LED density, LED Watts and manufacturer, etc. We can argue this point, but I personally woundn't invest in any solution other than the ones listed above.

Of the three manufactures that I listed, none are first generation solutions. The Vertex product is second generation, the Pacific Sun solution is third generation with the fourth generation set to launch very soon. ReefTech is a new company but the technology is an evolution of Pacific Sun.

LED pricing will come down a little bit, but not enough to justify waiting if you need the lights now. All of the solutions I mentioned are modular and upgradable when new LED chips come out.

Specifically, CREE has released a new XPE High Effeciency White (HEW) chip that I figure will show up in Reef lights soon. It is said to be 50% brighter than the standard XPE chip which should make it equivelent to the XPG chips but at a lower cost.

Also interesting is the trend away from optics. Of the three leading manufactures (Vertex, Pacific Sun, ReefTech), none of these use optics. Pacific Sun and ReefTech have optics as an option, but they basically only recommend them for very deep tanks. I personally agree that if the light intensity is sufficient without optics, they should not be necessary and I would not use them.

I guess we have to mention AI - They use optics, but but I have concerns about the solution in general. I'm not going to say much about this solution other than I just don't think it qualifies for the short list.

The magic number for LED lighting seems to be 160W per 2 foot of tank based on CREE XPG White.

Vertex Illuminata X00 series - 80W per foot
Vertex Illuminata 260 series - Can't find the data - It's at least the same as the X00
Pacific Sun - 160W and 190W modules
ReefTech LED - 180W modules

There will continue to be more and more inovation and the next generation fixtures will likely be even more impressive, but that is true of everything in the consumer market. At some point you have to buy in. The real question is whether the technology has matured enough to justify the investment and in my opinion it has.

abcha0s im not sure if i agree with you on the optics

if you do not use optics, you are restricted to the old way of thinking on mounting a light over your tank. few inches above the water level.

If you use optics, you got alot more options to think out of the box. Mounting it up against the ceiling high above your tank for a unique look.

I think part of the problem with these pre made fixtures is that everyone is following the old school way of doing lighting. LEDs give you so many new options like spot lighting an area in your tank and having shadows in other areas, using different colors all along your tank, etc etc

thanks one of my pep peevs about "kits". you are restricted to what someone says it should be made like.

dont think inside the box!

Wow, this turned from a tank shot page to a Why LED page quick :P

My 2 cents. Cost isn't going to be huge saving, like people have said and showed, cost of builds and electricity savings are going to eventually pay off the LEDS. But as also stated, people are assuming the LED's and drivers won't malfunction during that time (technically they shouldn't... but...). Same goes with MH too though, as i'm sure anybody using an old humming ballast knows.

The HUGE benifit in my opinion is the wave length on LED's... it doesn't change. No color shifting after 6 months like MH(even the best bulb will have some shift.) The output is at least 70% after 5 years of 12 hours a day use. Most people are underdriving their DIY systems, so they can increase to get that 70% back later on. Big setups are usually driven to max, but have sufficient cooling so that it won't matter.

People ahave been arguing the PAR rating etc, but PAR is a poor measure of what we need, most meters check all light between 400nm-700nm and give back the average over that amount. What we really need is the used wavelengthss since coral doesn't use an average from 400nm-700nm. PUR is better, but hard to measure. What you CAN see is the output of LED's on a wavelenth compared to what algee needs to grow. This is why i'm going LED's(not cree LED's or a good MH bulb/balast, but you can find wavelengths for both from cree's site and from sanjay's site, just a good general example)
http://aquariumdigest.files.wordpres...mh-4.jpg?w=500

Here's some links on LED's that should relate to this "tank pics":

benfits:
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/inde...owtopic=186982
Tank Pics(nano's but shows):
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/inde...owtopic=200335
LED build with par readings(my favorite LED tank so far):
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1761942
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&postcount=388 (vid's)

Here's a pic of that tank(Not Mine, one on RC):
http://i45.tinypic.com/ibkvth.jpg

Dez how are they working out for you what are the par readings like and what are the 10K's like are they white or the 14K are they dark looking

That's why I decided to try them out side by side.
Left: Weipro is the cheapest but not even close to acceptable. Money wasted.
Middle: KEY Aquarium LED, entry level LED. Color is good and soft coral is growing fast. I got a small Birsnest frag and will see how it does. BTA is doing ok too.
Right: Marineland Reef LED. Newly setup, need more time and more frags to test, but color is not as good as the KEY.

So on the Key LED light, did you order the CREE version or did you go with their standard non-cree version. Which Key LED is that?

It is the CREE version. 72cm wide version.

my 150g reef tank lit by one Panorama 36 LED Retrofit

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/...IMG_0887-1.jpg

the rating for 50,000 hours is right from the cree data sheet, as is the drop off rating for MH's the reason for the drop off in MH is due to the gas and rare metals inside being subjected to the heat inside the bulb. I was looking at the specks for the MH we use int he arena which last longer than the bulbs we use on the tank and they have a 60% dropp off after 20,000 hours and believe me I can tell looking at them as there are a bunch we need to change haha. the rating for the cree is something like 15% after 50,000 hours and because there is no gas or rare earth metals that are being heated and vaporized over and over there is also no color change. also running the new crees at 700mA instead of 1000, or even the rated 1500mA extends the life even longer.

as for running them 11 years I doubt it but I do know street light using high power LEDs have been around for about that so I suspect that the manufactures know what the actual drop off is as it only takes 5 years at 24/7 to get to 50000 hours.

like you I have run the full gambit of lighting, spent over 10K doing it on my 90 gal. wish I didn't but 10 years ago there was no info on lighting.

for the record I am a MH guy, I think T5s are way over rated but good for supplementing color, But I have been playing with Leds for about 5 years maybe more now but for the purpose of moonlighting and supplemental color as the powerful ones were just to expensive until recently.

now for a 30 gal tank (which I am putting together now although it will be a very slow build, as I have to insulate, drywall and heat my shop first) LEDs make way more sense.

this tank will be a SPS high light requirement tank.

the metal halide way I am looking at two fixtures at 250 watt each. I could get away with one, but from experience with my 90 gal and my PAR meter even using a good reflector looses a lot of light at the edges and I find the PAR drop off is significant enough outside of the 20 inch square. to even this out you have to raise the light farther which also drops the overall intensity. so in order to get the levels I want I am looking at two fixtures which will give me about 400 PAR on the tank bottom.

Also I will require a 12" box on top of the tank to enclose the fixture and prevent light spillage. kinda looks funny on a smaller tank

I also like a color in between 10K and 14K so MH bulbs alone don't cut it..

so a decent MH setup from J&L is 312 each x 2 is 622.00
to add 2 DIY T5 bulbs, standoffs, ballast and reflector is 170.00 granted most will be satisfied with 1 MH so for this example we will use 1. so 311.00 plus 170 = 481.00 plus what ever it costs to make you canopy.

if you want to go with a sleek fixture and have a open top like the LED will give me then you are looking at 583 for a 24" fixture with one 250 watt mh and two 24" t5s

for me to do LED for my tank I can get a 48 Ultra Premium LED DIY Kit with Dimmable Drivers for 460 plus 80 for the heat sink, so 540.00 all together. granted I have to build it. and we can add a little more to make it look sweet (like building a hood)

Now this set up with 40 degree optics will also give me PAR levels of 400 on the bottom of my tank.

so the initial purchase on the first MH setup is 60 bucks cheaper and the second MH is more expensive.

power consumption on the MH setup is going to be about 420 watts for a magnetic M80 ballast which I like better because of the higher outputs or about 350 watts for a fancy electronic ballast model plus the T5s so say about 70 watts so 490 or 420.

for the LED set up the power consumption with be about 146.88 watts so a little over 1/3rd of the electronic ballast option.

now the subjective parts. my preferred combo is AB 10K 250 watt SE with uri super actinic VHO the 13K of the ab's plus the URI VHO give a color that is simply unbeatable and the power to match, but the AB bulbs are 180 each. so now my MH set up is going to increase by 100 for a 1MH set up to 200 for a 2 bulb set up but if you like the look of other bulbs that are cheaper then thats a mute point. and I will use 80 buck bulbs as an average for this comparison.

so 11 years changing bulbs once a year for the MH setup is going to be
1430.00 assuming all bulbs last 1 year even the T5s
so now total costs for hardware is

MH 1911.00
LED 540.00

in my case the LEDs save me money before I turn them on, which for a small tank make it more desirable in a small single tank it will take 1 bulb change to make the LEDs cheaper.

lets talk about pros and cons on a small volume tank (say under 50 gal)

PROs

MH
proven track record and the power to grow anything well.
simple to buy and install
wide selections of bulbs

LEDs
proven track record up to 3 years in Canada and US is common, longer in Europe and Asia.
no radiant heat
any color combination you want changeable at whim.
lighting effects from gradual dimming to rock shows able to be made by adding a 70 buck PC controller like and adrunio setup.
directed narrow spread light so light is only where you want it.

CONs

MH
have to change bulb to change color
lots of radiant heat into water
large enclosure/hood required to contain light

LEDs
expensive for a ready made solution, cheaper if you have the skill to build yourself
shorter track record than MH, but still longer than T5's :wink:

one thing I haven't mentioned is actual electricity costs. BC has one of the lowest power costs in north America so on the example tank the difference might be only 8 bucks a month in power consumption but imagine what it might be in California?

another thing to note is actual power requirements to the tank area.. especially on a larger tank. how many circuits do you need for your MH lighting. even on my 30 gal in the example with the two 250 watt MH I will need two 15 amp circuits to run it. if I go with the LED I can run the whole tank on 1 circuit.

another thing that is a huge huge concern on a small tank that I haven't gotten into is heat. one 250 watt MH on a 30 gal tank is going to make a lot of heat and in most cases will require a chiller. so the cost of this plus the power to run it should be taken into account also.

Finlay I am not pushing LEDs only stating the opinions I have formulated over 5 or more years of tinkering with them, and especially from my research in the last year and a bit on the high power LEDs like the Cree.
they just make sense.. to many pros and to many savings.. it just to bad that instead of a 100% mark up that they companies who are making decent fixtures are doing anywhere from a 500 to a 1000% mark up over the cost to make them.

Steve

Thanks for the kind words Brad, you are one of the first people to see it really (Ronnie did beat you to the punch tho)

Here are some pics of the Dimmable LED+T5 DIY for those interested:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/IMG_2068.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/IMG_2055.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/IMG_2062.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/IMG_2058.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/IMG_2053.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/IMG_2051.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...s/IMG_1996.jpg

sweet looking setup, nice and neat.. I feel much better now that there is some one who can keep Brad from burning his house down :mrgreen: keep an eye one what he does :wink:

how about some details on the setup its self?

Steve

Sure thing!

Main Tank:
================================
Tank: 265 Gallon Perfecto
Lighting: 16 x 39w HOT5, 60 x 3 watt CREE LED's (ATI Dimmable Ballasts, Meanwell ELN-60-48D Drivers)
Pumps: 4 x Hydor 12V Korallia 4's, 2 x Hydor 12V Korallia 6's, 2 x Tunze Nanostream 6055's

Sump:
================================
Tank: 75 gallon
Skimmer: Bubble Magus Cs 220
Calcium Reactor: Vertex Rx6 Duo
Dosing: GHL Slave 4 Doser w/Bubble Magus Dosing Chambers
Controller: Profilux 3ex w/expansion Box, 3 x 6 Outlet Bars, 1 x 4 Outlet Bars, 3 x Pump Control1 modules, much more.
Reactors: 2 x TLF 550 Media reactors with BioPellets, 1 x TLF 150 Reactor full of FM Power Ultra Phos

Fuge:
================================
Tank: 120 Gallon (48" x 24" x 24")
Lighting: 5 x 54w HOT5
Pumps: Various Korallia hand me downs

Here is a crappy video I shot of the tank with my iPod a week ago, kind of get an idea of how its set up...

Gareth and Megan's 265 Gallon

Would love to see this setup...do you allow visitors? I get to the Island for business about every 5 weeks or so.

Here's some detail. You do not want to tank sit this setup when Gareth goes on vacation!! :)

For sure, I'm usually good for evenings, or Tuesday-wednesday when I'm not working.

LOL... its gonna run itself while I'm away... one week isnt too bad. Just needs to be fed. Doing my water change tonight/tomorrow and it will be good till I'm back from Cuba..

*fingers crossed*

how long you going to sit and stair at all the diffeent colored wires?

Gareth, lock up the electronics if he is babysitting.. that way he can't screw anything up haha

Steve

No, I'm not watching it. And I'm pretty sure all the wires are the same color!

lol yes they were, got a good deal on the right guage wire so I had 1000 feet to use..

Steve, your 30 gallon example is worse than my 9x3 foot tank example :lol:. You're dreaming if you think 48 LEDs will compare to 500W of halide plus T5s. And who runs that much light on a 30 gallon? Also 40 degree optics shouldn't be used on a tank unless it's exceptionally tall, all you'll do is create hot spots because a 40 degree optic will actually concentrate most of it's light at around the 20 degree range or lower. You will not get the same par overall, you will get hot spots which may make you believe you do but you won't. But anyway like I mentioned very easy to make up bias examples to prove a point and anything other than that related to a 100 gallon tank size isn't that relative in this thread and the OP.

Couple other things I'll point out:
50,000 hours based on manufacture data sheet means nothing and I believe it's 30% drop, not 15%. Metal halide data sheets state the same deal, 70% remaining after 20,000 hours which is about 5 years (70% is that standard used for bulb life and is based on lumen output). We obviously sometimes experience more par drop due to color shift with certain types of bulbs but be aware that you can keep PAR constant with certain bulb types and using an HQI ballast. Efficiency and color is sacrificed but this may not be a concern as the power used will not be significantly more and if supplemental lighting is also used. Most don't look into this because they figure a couple bulbs aren't that expensive to replace on a yearly bases.

As for street lights some cities have introduced some but reports have shown they do not live up to suppliers claims due to moisture and different climate conditions so LEDs for reef tanks could suffer similar effects due to the moist environment. I did a feasibility study on LED streetlights using aluminum poles in university. The idea was to introduce aluminum poles instead of steel for safety and lower maintenance, we included LED lights to promote better payback periods however in the end the LED lights proved to be more problematic than we originally expected.

As for electrical circuit requirements, 500W of halide is just over 4amps so it can easily run on a single circuit in addition to other equipment. I just installed a bathroom vanity light in my house which uses 5 100W halogens, I didn't have to run a new circuit to power it. You do however typically want two circuits for any tank to have the ability to run life support equipment on a separate circuit.

Since LED fixtures typically only use blue and white LEDs the amount of color changing ability is actually very limited. You could add other colors but it's not very common practice and it's not always that easy to blend them in to avoid color spots. T5s can also be dimmed and with a range of bulb colors and with the ability to change them so easily you will find better color options available in T5s.

It's also pretty hard to tell what a company is using for mark up, 500-1000% percent is highly unlikely. Why don't you start up a business, lease a plant and all the equipment you need, hire workers including at least one electrical engineer, cover all the R&D for development, hire customer support, sales, marketing and possibly even patent costs to protect your own designs or to use another companies. Oh and then make money too. It's not the same as building a fixture in your basement that looks like an electrical hazard and saying "wow that's way cheaper, those companies are just ripping people off".

Another topic to discuss relating to LEDs is resale. Many of us constantly change our tanks out for bigger or smaller versions and sometimes sh** happens and we need to sell it all or most of it. So how will LED fixtures do in the used market?

Since LED fixtures can in theory last 10+ years how will one confirm the life remaining on the LEDs? With halide and T5 fixtures bulbs are typically replaced anyway to be on the safe side since they aren't too expensive.

If you buy a fixture today for $4K how much can you realistically sell it for in a few years? Since solaris fixtures are one of the few that have been around for long enough I would opt to use that as a guideline although the prehaps not the best example but when they came out reviews were still on average pretty good. The fixtures cost over $3K when they came out, recently seen people trying to sell them for around $600-$700 with little luck.

If you build your own fixture I think your chances of selling it for close to what you paid are significantly lower, although a simple system to the builder the buyer will see something significantly more complicated and may be concerned about integrity, especially when DIY controllers are also introduced. Those with LED experience will see more value but will most likely opt to build their own rather than buy someone elses.

Halide and T5 fixtures can sell for a reasonable amount, especially lower end fixtures that didn't cost that much new such as TEKs and PFOs. I purchased a used giesemann fixture a few years back, with new bulbs that fixture was as good as new, I'm confident I could sell that fixture for pretty much the same price I paid and the buyer would simply stick in new bulbs and the fixture again would be as good as new. Can the same be said about LED fixtures?

Funny enough, I've been really researching the DIY LED side of things as I will be building my own and of the various setups that have been made via the detailed threads on RC and NR, a lot of them have been sold for more than they cost. Their reason for selling...to make bigger and fancier ones of course...that's what DIYer's do.:biggrin:

That's strange cause a quick search on RC shows nothing of the sort

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&highlight=led

Perhaps this was a special circumstance from a reputable builder on RC? I can see someone that people would consider an expert and has spectacular build quality could sell their DIY fixtures for a decent amount in comparison to the cost of parts alone but for us average Joes, I doubt it.

Many fixtures do allow you to replace leds. Aqua illuminations sells their led pucks incase one expires and maxspect you can change out each individual one with a variety of colors now if you choose. i think Vertex is getting into this idea as well with their newer auxiliary models.

I agree that there are a few fixtures and some DIY unit that are going to be inhibited by this problem but i can see a lot more companies in the led market giving the consumer the ability to customize the fixture.

I hadn't even looked at the FS forum on RC, I was simply talking about some of the long DIY threads where I've followed the builder through multiple renditions of their light (as they sell each one to help pay for the next build).

Yes I know, most fixtures being produced now have replaceable LEDs, but for how much? My point was you can replace a couple halides and T5s for around $200-$300 depending on the type and quantity. You can also usually get an idea on how old T5 bulbs and halide bulbs are by their brightness and color. LEDs are a little trickier and at probably around $10 per LED depending on the manufacturer you could end up spending close to $1000 for a 4 foot fixture.

Yea i agree they are expensive at the moment. i think a puck with three leds from AI runs about $25 USD. But like everything as more products become available price should start to fall.

Aside from DIY LED are still in their infancy compared to MH and T5. we need those early adopters to to weed out the crap. haha

Haha...well who knows if I will end up regretting my decision to go LED...but I'm invested now and my research suggests that it will be well worth it.

Yeah I agree however special puck LEDs like those in AI will likely not drop in price unless the company allows other manufactures to make them which is doubtful as the replacement LEDs will be a good source of revenue in the future. They could also change the design in new fixtures 10 years from now so I would worried about being able to purchase such a unique replacement in the distant future.