I was under the impression that the first and second criticisms were both constructive.

Sorry Michael, but you cannot just sweep corroborated opinions under the rug and tag them as negative marketing.

Here's the quote that bothers me:

Unfounded and, as of earlier in this thread, debunked. Without that particle, I personally have no issue to level against Ultralith.

I Typically do not like chiming into these threads as they get too heated.
I'm a huge supporter of ULNS I don't care if your with FM or Zeo.

I do not think Claude was attacking Zeo, if you read his post without bias you will see he was just explaining the differences in the system.
English not being Claude first language may give him some difficulties expressing himself as eloquently as he could have in German.

Let keep this thread going with out getting too emotional. So far so good

J

Hi
Albert

I try to explain this words

I mean that my first thing is to create a system where everybody
can use it without have issues even when it will be overdosed
As sample Wodka methode an idea from a german friend of mine i
have a lot of critic to him why he published this methode and he also not understand me.
it is not the system byself which is dangerous it is extrem difficult to find the right dosing for each tank with this methods so hundreds of tanks crashed it is not the mistake of the product byself this can!! work but it is to dangerous for a lot of users.
the same with different products on the market or my own some are easy to use some are difficult and you need a lot of feeling to create with them good results.
What i mean is that it is sometimes not as difficult to create extrem stuff
which works fast and great but you ever must see the long time effect which such products will have and this is in my opinion one of the most important things which an producer have to think.
So we write on the most products all ingredients and we did not work
with extrem stuff like as sample high copper dosings.
Ok the results are then lower but also safer.
Only a different way that all

I hope now is better to understand my meaning

Greets from germany :-)

Agree 100%

Many thanks.

I think this thread really will have a whole lot more relevance in 6 months once the new kid on the block has been given the chance to stretch his legs, i think we will see a great balanced review on all systems. I for one am setting up some big reviews, one lucky CANREEF member has been given the chance to do this and is in the middle of setting it up, so I think time will tell and bring great positive attributes to both the systems and CANREEF.

this is being googled already :)

This is not what I intended this post to be. I was looking for peoples results using the 2 different methods. I believe that the manufacturers and the distributors should stay out of it. Of course they are going to protect and advertise for their product. If they notice that one or more people had or are having issues with the systems, then they should contact them via PM to help solve the issues. Quit taking offense to what YOUR customers are saying. Use it to improve on your product and service.
Everyone's tanks and dedication to their tanks are different, so therefore results will be different. I just just wanted to make an informed decision on which way to go, and ask the users of the products questions about their success and or failure.
So lets relax out there and let people say what they think of the products out there. Realize that everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, and that is what I was looking for. Not an advertisement for anyone product.
Thank you to those who did let me know what they thought of the 2 products.

I agree and it is a shame the other companies are being quiet It would be good to hear what they have to say about their systems, so without their presence I can understand the bias and marketing feel.

One thing i think is important and that is to get to know Claude, not as the company but as the person, Claude has massive knowledge far beyond so many and the very unbiased advise he gives on other forums can easily be transported over to here.

So to bring this thread more on track i will post in my forum in the coming days a sticky thread of who Claude is and his history and then an ask Claude thread. He really is quite the guru and we all can learn masses from him.

My reasons for writing this here is to then see that when claudes answers it is not so much product related but for a passion for what he does.

As I said before, in 6 months this thread will become a lot more even balanced, some at present are basing rightly or wrongly on the false start fauna has had in this country and now that has been rectified i really look forward to seeing this great thread come alive and also hopefully benefit CANREEF as more people tune into such an active and passionate topic.

basically the difference I see between fauna marin and zeovit is zeovit's been around longer. They've been tested for longer and have had more time to build up users of their product.

The question I'm wondering is whether the market will even out in a couple years once the newcomers have had time to refine and market their products or will somone be left standing as king of the bacterial product market?

I think your 100% right, any new kid on the block is going to come under stiff opposition and in a few years as you say when more users adopt the methods it will give people great choice. Also I would not be surprised to see other brands of equal quality coming to the market also, which is fantastic for consumers.

I personally like the competition it gives us something to work for for sure.

How did you manage to slip this one past me Sean? :P

There already is a King and he's not budging...

I do not see anyone wearing a crown, especially between these two manufacturers.

Just like in Europe there will always be two camps, both manufacturers promoting positively their product, and the users fighting it out between themselves ;)

This can only be good for getting LNS more known which can only benefit both companies equally.

I do not believe one system is better than the other they both have their own merits it comes down to personal choice and thats for the user to decide not the manufacturers or even the distributors including me :wink:

Claude
\
You told me to pm you, I have done this three times, and still no reply.
You should know who I am from the Ultralith forum and you sent me pm on there as well when i first brought this to your attention.

I am not sure what you are saying here, is it that using this additives (which ever flavor you want) is the only way to achieve a low nutrient system? or that by using these systems it is proven to have long term success?

from what I have been seeing and reading neither statement is accurate unless your a sales man trying to sell products.

1) there are plenty of ways to create nutrient free systems with basic equipment and no additives, and they have had amazing and long term success and are easy to do.

2) show me a long term success with Zeo or what ever? its only been here for a couple years how can you call that long term? and I don't care what there doing in Germany or Japan, as I have said before I am German, and have been there several times... So is VW and that doesn't spell quality either. German stuff is the same as Canadian stuff, some good, some crap and a bit awesome. how about some long term success tanks right here in Canada that is all because of Zeo or what ever?

I don't know why I read these sometimes, but I get so &*^% off at the "you can't have a nice tank with out using" sales pitches that are blatant lies because you can have just as nice of a tank with less work.


Ok I will stop my rant over and Merry Christmas to all. got to go play santa now :mrgreen:

Steve

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. There's a big difference between achieving low nutrient via chemical media filtration and probiotic. For one, I KNOW I can dump a full canister of flake into my SPS tank and now have a brown out or disasterous drop in ORP. Would I ever do this? No, but it lends credibility to the resilience of the system.

Yeah, and power to the people who care to use them. You don't need to use Kershaw or Henkel knives to cut your food, but I do and I'd never go back.

Look for Iwan's tank. It's fairly well know and had been set up for some time before he upgraded to a larger, even more mack-daddy tank, which has also been running long term. No offense to everyone who doesn't run probiotic, but his tank, and many others utilizing probiotic put many of the so-called iconic tanks to shame. Hard. But that's strictly an opinion and should be taken as such.

Zeo, VSV, Prodibio, etc have a limited pool of selection here in Canada because of the relatively high learning curve and formerly high costs associated with them. This is changing and, just like in the States (namely Cali), I expect to see a very pronouced movement towards this type of methodology. I'm including the use of VSV (vinegar, sugar, vodka) under this claim since the fundamentals are the same.

But I digress. For Canadians, check out Snappy's tank. Greg (correct me if I'm wrong man) has been a longtime user of Reefresh, a probiotic system developed by Polylabs. I, along with a great deal many others, have had the pleasure of seeing his system firsthand. It is worthy of every bit of praise and attention it receives worldwide.

Is this a personal attack? Cause calling me a liar, a BLATANT liar, seems like one. I was under that impression that moderators are here to prevent this sort of behavior.

If you are uncomfortable with people saying that there are different ways of doing things, that's fine. But expect that people are going to start treating your opinions as absent rheotorical, just as you seem to have made up your mind about my opinions.

No more EGGNOG for you...

Well the real facts are LNF systems have been around for over 10 years, with many tanks in Europe employing this highly successful system (s)

If you want to look for long term success, just spend an hour scrolling through the German boards, you will find multiple LNF systems

Just because a product has not been in North America that long does not mean either it does not work or is new and should be overlooked like some sort of alien, North America seems to be the last place on earth to embrace new ideas in this hobby and I think a lot of that comes from the unwillingness to go outside a set comfort zone.

Whether you use Fauna or zeo or what ever they are all proven to work and when used as directed produce results that really cant be acheived in any other way. It is then up to the interested party to embrace this or bury our heads back in the sand hoping it will go away so we can get back to our comfort zone.

Yes you can have a nice tank without using these systems, but you also can have a much more vibrant healthy and colourful tank when using them. You need to understand the concept first I guess to understand this. You are removing all unnatural pollutants from the tank and replacing with the exact aminos bacterias and trace elements found in the wild, so providing a natural enviroment, well this is how fauna works and I think zeo is not far different, they just employ different dosing strategies and a few different concepts.

Merry christmas one and all ;)

[quote=albert_dao;371420]Is this a personal attack? Cause calling me a liar, a BLATANT liar, seems like one. I was under that impression that moderators are here to prevent this sort of behavior.

quote]

Nope not at all and not directed at you, but rather the ones where I have been in a LFS (not necessarily in Victoria either) and overheard the sales people telling newbies that you cannot have a nice tank unless you buy this (brand X). it is a blatant lie and as far as I am concerned it is taking advantage. I know the world is buyer beware and that we should educate ourselves, but this is why you see so many new people start up tanks with all this top notch equipment and then 3 months later there selling everything off for less than 50% of what they have paid.

My main problem with these methods isn't that you don't need them or they do or don't work, but rather that they make having a tank so labor extensive. I know Aqua is going to re-mention the pump system, but there is an extra 800ish on top of the rest. so for some one on a budget is isn't feasible.

Steve

I agree 100% it should NOT be sold as the saviour of the reefing world, it is for people with dedicated LPS and SPS systems that want to go the extra mile.

In regards to labour intensive, I would have to disagree - You feed your fish daily right? maybe twice a day, so how much more effort is it to put a couple of ML of nutrients in tha tank at the same time, Hmmm 1 minute a day extra at the most. But in saying that i am talking about one system only maybe the other is more labour intensive but I wont go down that road as i will be accused of marketing ;)

Lets see some pictures to back up your statements.

Some before and after pics would be nice.

I think the most labor intensive part is that you can't readily miss a few days while you go away for the weekend for example. Most fish will be fine without food for a couple days. And if I needed to be away for longer than a couple days I could quite easily have someone feed my fish specific quantities of food. However I would be worried (unless I had another ULNS hobbyist sitting for my tank) that someone could easily mis-dose my tank.

I've long wanted to try the Fauna range of products for ULNS but my experience with VSV in the past coupled with my frequent travel schedule always left me concerned while I was away with someone else dosing my tank. I could very well automate things with an additional dosing system but a) I'd still be worried about malfunctioning of the dosing system and b) the cost of the dosing system would leave me having to wonder if it was justified in comparison to the results attained without it.

The great results obtained with several of the ULNS are very appealing. And I agree that as they become more mainstream with better customer service/support --> improved understanding and knowledge there will continue to be transition towards their use. The uncertainty about things like potassium dosing and the lack of any quality test kits to obtain valid and reliable results does make me a little leary about dosing those things in my tank however. Hopefully continued use of ULNS will contribute to greater understanding about a lot of the essential components and weed out some of the unnecessary ones.

http://www.korallenriff.de/bilder/ga...gross/6985.jpg
http://www.korallenriff.de/bilder/ga...gross/6988.jpg
http://www.korallenriff.de/bilder/ga...gross/6986.jpg
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/q...n/CIMG3606.jpg
http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/o...marine/FTS.jpg

I hope that backs up the statement pretty well, but if not I have a library full of users tanks that all use this system.

actualy no, every 3rd day. If I have to do anything daily I wouldn't have a tank. I go away to much for a couple days to a couple weeks to have to do daily stuff, thats why I am looking at the proflux and balling set up for the new tank.

Steve

the pics are nice, but what would be real nice would be to see a pic right befor the start of the FM , then at several intervals during the process to see the physical change. Also a little write up showing tank peramiters and such.

Steve

everyones situation is different, if we all used the same things in life, wouldnt life be boring!!!!!

I personally fed twice a day so now issue