"sentenced it to death"?? Get a life
 

Oh come on Steve read my last post. "sentenced it to death" don't you think that's a little to harsh? How many fish do you have in your tank that you "sentenced it to death"?

Oh one more thing...
 

Hey Steve since you own or work at Island Aquatics what do you think about all those dead fish in your tank? Why are you so negtive about my little ananos from the local water? Are you scard that you will losse sales in your store?

You should watch what you say. You don't want to get a bad image for Island Aquatics now do you?

heh, I don't think that's a real store... :mrgreen:


But seeing these and other examples of (your) local wildlife, including that great pic Adam posted, has caused me to re-evaluate my bias toward tropical species.

Seeing all those vibrant green anemones at the Van Aquarium, I used to go "wow" and then, "but they're only cold-water." Don't hink I can do that anymore...

I really don't see a problem with a coldwater tank. Very neat, very challenging, very rewarding.

But that doesn't make the other points wrong. Wildlife collecting does require a permit (I think just a fishing permit may suffice, but it would be better to check), and certainly never collect anything out of a protected area. Releasing anything back that has been exposed to non-native species should also be avoided.

And, unfortunately, yes, if a species is coldwater but manages to survive temporarily at warmer temps, that doesn't mean it is "thriving." I mean, we just don't know. If the species natural range extends into waters where the temperatures are that within your tank, that would be one thing; but if the range doesn't extend that far -- that has to tell you something. I'm not saying it is, I'm not saying it's not; I'm saying that just plunking something into your tank and the fact that it doesn't die right away -- doesn't tell you enough to make an accurate judgment call. More careful research needs to be done. Ultimately, I think forcing an animal to adapt to conditions is less optimal than the artificial environment being adapted to the animal.

All that said, I myself would love to do a coldwater SW set up some day myself, and "more power" to anyone who does so themselves too (as long as it's done "properly").

There ... now I've said my piece. Oh, and yah. "Chill." Isn't that what we're talking about anyhow????? :mrgreen: :lol:

Coldwater tanks isn't the issue here. He is keeping what can be regarded as a coldwater species in a warm water tank.

When I asked what species it was a definitive reply was not given, but was rather vague. This leads me to believe that the "homework" that was done isn't so much for any research and experimental purposes, but rather just trying to save a few $. Am I right, Himself? (I get that you are very anti-LFS).

The link that monza provided states that the species, assuming that it is the species in question, ranges all the way to Panama. So the species appears to be capable of living in warm water, but one could argue that the local specimens are acclimatized to coldwater and thus should remain in coldwater.

The link also says never remove this species from their native habitat.

I think a little more "homework" and "calculation" should have been exercised regarding this before the anemones were removed from their habitat. JMO.

Cheers,

PS- I tried bringing up Vancouver Aquariums website to find out any local info on this species but their website appears down now. (Can't bring it up).

Re: Oh one more thing...
 

:rolleyes: Listen, if you didn't want to hear people's opinions on your "free" anemone experiment (both pro and con) then why did you post here? Steve stated his opinion and backed it up. This reply was unnecessary.

Yes, I've already inquired with the DFO and a fishing licence is all you need to collect native species. However, you must still abide by the regulations ie: bag limit, area and species closures. I'm still planning my coldwater tank. I should have water in it any year now. LOL!

I understand that it is a distinct issue.. I did also make comments regarding the practise of animals inside environments not specifically tailored to the needs of those animals. You don't need to argue with me per se, I think we're on the same page here. :biggrin:

cheers

ahem,

Chill.

ahem...

Yes, I agree that we are on the same page. I wasn't trying to argue with you re: coldwater tanks. It's just that I saw you refer to that a couple of times, in this thread, and I see this thread as a discussion on something different than that. I was merely trying to point my view on that out to you. As for including your input on species range, in the "Delphinus Wrote" part, the intent there was for continuity sake for the reader. The intent was not to argue your point. *Edit: Re: my input regarding species being already acclimatized to coldwater... I suppose the phrase "one could argue..." was the wrong phrase to use. What I meant was more along the lines of..."something else to think about..." Edit complete*. No offense was intended. :smile:

Cheers,

Re: reply
 

????????? :confused:
When scuba diving in the Carribean I see lots of urchins every time I go.

how's that any different than anyone else in the world?

err, I don't think he has quite sentenced it to death Stir... I mean , I haven't been paying super close attention to the thread, but didn't he mention he was having success keeping these anemones long-term?

If so.... they haven't been sentenced to death.

And good point Invigor.

They are suggesting that the annemonies will die prematurely(which is highly likely), which technically is sentencing it to death.

Chris

OCDP, Gawd, change your avatar! That thing is frickin huge! :razz:

And none taken John. It's just that this thread is really quite about a lot of different things. The coldwater tanks, yeah, OK, a little out in left field maybe, but I mentioned it only in passing as a lead-in to the other points I was trying to make, which I thought were more important. 1) Collection process, permit vs. no permit, 2) research of a species environmental tolerances, 3) what to do with the animals if/when they start to decline. Amongst others too, of course. Anyhow, I guess the problem is if you quote me, I feel compelled to respond. If you're the same as me in that regard, maybe we can stretch this out a couple more pages and maybe even we can see how many more times we can get OCDP to say "chill" too. :razz: :lol:

:lol:
Page 5 is comin' up soon!
Oh, and no problem, IMO.
:biggrin:

Cheers,

Whew!
 

The testosterone certainly is swimming around in this post. I have an extra bag of ice for the winner! :agrue: :lol:

Re: reply
 

Here is quote from Dr. Shimek's article on reef keeping this month talking about what Danny is referring to (not included is the picture):

Figure 4. This image, taken in 1981, gives an idea of the abundance of Diadema antillarum in the Caribbean prior to the disease that ravaged their populations in 1983. Diadema are ecologically extinct throughout the Caribbean today.

Re: Oh one more thing...
 

first I don't have a store, and yes I own Island aquatics which will only deal in custom equipment and acrylic fabrication when it is officially opened. so as for you taking a local species and subjecting it to conditions that are not what it should have (mainly temperature related as I could care less about the size of tank and lighting issue in this case because we can provide the proper things in those areas easy enuf)

In effect you have taken a creature that could possibly live 50+ years left in the wild and reduced its lifespan dramatically, and I am not talking about it happening from lack of care and food ect.. but from a simple excessively high Temp that will raise its metabolism dramatically hence shortening its natural life span.

about 3 years ago I had the same idea as you but instead of running out and doing it I sent e-mails to people who would know if it is a feasible thing to do, Dr Ron Shimek's e-mail was the one that convinced me to not do it as he is the only one who's specialty is the cold water species of invertebrate off of Vancouver Island. his email said yes you can keep it in there but it will have a unusually shore life span as compared to the ones in nature. an increase in temp increases the metabolism shortening the life of the critter. further more when I asked if they could be adapted over generations the answer was "no, well not in our life span anyways"

Steve

Ok here is page #5
 

Can anyone say their tank has the idenical condition as the waters where your fish came from?

If the answer is no then why are we taking these fish and putting them in an inferior condition?

Would that be negligence on us?

We are all on the stand here. So before you go bashing around think twice.

Please don't use excuses that we are trying our best or at least is legal. When was the last time you went to the LFS and ask to see the licence of their supplier, are their workers working unerder a save condition, is there child labour involved or how about human rights?

Even though we are trying our best to match the conditions of their natural habitat but in our heart we know is not even close. Is there a chance that these anaimals will die prematurely in a inferior condition? I belive the answer is YES and for those that does not agree then that is just pure ignorance.

P.S: Since most of the life stook is from 3rd world countries like the Philipens and Indonesia what do you think about the working condition? I have been to these countries (out side of the resort and the tourst area) and I don't know how to say it but some how it makes you understand that is not these people don't care about the ocean but they have no choice.

Re: Ok here is page #5
 

Nobody here will claim that their tank is the same conditions as the ocean, and nobody can. And no one can say for certain whether a specific animal could have lived longer in the ocean. I won't claim that my tank is looking out for the best interest of all the inhabitants, if I wanted to provide them the best I would not be in this hobby at all, and my animals would be in the sea. But what I TRY to do is replicate their environment to the best of my abilities with the tools and information that is available to me, and think that giving my visitors a chance to have a close up look at the occupants will give them a greater appreciation for what many take for granted.

So where do we draw the line? How about the shoes you wear everyday? Where do you think those were made? Or you mp3 player, digital camera, the computer you are using right now, etc. etc.


The fact is that you're keeping a cold water anemone in a warm water tank, and that you are not even TRYING to replicate its natural environment. But when it comes right down to it, everyone has their own ethics, and if yours allow you to keep anemones in your tank, then go for it.

BTW, we hit page 5! :biggrin:

As a new member I thought I would jump right into the fray



First of all we should all go reread the introduction to Martin A Moe Jr.’s Marine Aquarium Reference (Systems and invertebrates) (Martin is still the King)

To those of you who are ranting I would suggest that you direct your energies towards the fisheries and some if their practices that kill off 1000s of “waste” fish and inverts every day, who knows they might adapt just fine.......

To HimSelf where do you reside,

Shame on you for not running a cold water tank. Some of the fish and inverts are just to cool for words and according to the people I talked to at the Vancouver aquarium easier to keep than the tropical types.

Cheers
Mitch#3

I just got back from a visit to Ucluelet on Vancouver Island. They have a mini-aquarium there that is phenomenal! Every spring they dive to collect local oceanic animals and set up this aquarium. Then, every fall they dismantle it and put the animals back in the ocean.

You do need a permit to harvest animals from the ocean! They obviously have one.

My point, however, is that you may get information on keeping or releasing Himself's critters from the biologist at the aquarium. They are huge into education there and very helpful.

The website is http://www.uclueletaquarium.org/

I'm sure if you email them they can help you.

Re: Ok here is page #5
 

back the bus up! are you trying to compare taking an animal that is adapted to living in 51 to 53 degree F water and putting it in a tank that is 76 degrees to taking an animal that is used to 78 degrees f and putting it a tank that is 79 or 80?

if so you better step back and do a serious reality check here.

Steve

YES I agree 100%, the marine environment around Van may be "cold" but it is stunningly beautiful. :lol:

cheers
Mitch#3

man i just want to the see the pictures :neutral:

Okay I can see both sides of this arguement. Collecting a local species and adapting it to tropical conditions is not natural. Yes our local waters can warm up in the summer. As a dive instructor I've seen local shallow bays hit 75* F in the summer HOWEVER most invert and fish life goes to the deeper area below the thermocline where it can be in COOLER water. You rarely see anemonies in the warmer water if they can escape, mussels that are attatched can adapt if they need to, let's face it they cant just pack up and move 20 feet deeper.
How many of us do water changes, not all our water is treated through sewage systems. How many of us have dumped out water from our tank into our toilet or bath tub. YES there is fresh water there but you know, alot of us keep fresh water as well so our parasites etc are still being introduced into the environment. Am I saying it's no big deal??? Absolutely not (Christy would kick my butt). But seriously, it is a big deal, look at our local area's where sewage out fall and drain out fall has hurt local dive sites. An area can be stripped of all life in just a couple of short years once our waste products start being introduced into the area.
In reef keeping when you are talking about anemones that have 50-150 year life span, can we say 9 months to a year is long term. One of the anemonies is splitting, that's great, or is it. How do we force anemones to split, by introducing stress, force them to split because they know when they are stressed, they need to try to propogate the species.

My opinions are simply, bad move but you've done it, learn from it maybe it will work out, I think it's irresponsible though. Our local waters have life that can rival that of any tropical dive area. Jacque Cousteau named Vancouver Island as one of his favorite dive destinations in the world. Let's keep cold water species in cold water, warm water species in warm water and let's not take cheap shots at people who offer an opinion when you posted the topic in the first place. Steve isn't your enemy, either is Muck or anyone else. Mature people have mature discussions and that doesn't have to lead to fights.

Just my 2 cents worth.. (okay maybe a bit more than that)

Doug

this thread cracks me up.

i'm with you

I gotta agree with BC Orchid guy and soooo many others here...when this thread was started did you really think that everyone would think it was the coolest idea ever to remove local anemones and put them into your warm water tank? There is controversy to any subject...you opened the door to everyone posting "their" 2 cents worth....you will hear things that you don't want to...and of course things that you do...in anything you have to take the good with the bad....buck up....enjoy the discussion that you have started (take the responsibility for such a controversial topic) and hopefully you will take some of the advice and not feel the need to bite back. No one bit you...just gave you some food for thought!

Nice post BCOrchidGuy/Doug
Thanks for the good debate "Himself".
Nice to see a decent debate, although I think it was done a few pages ago.

Oh yeah please try to remember it's spelt:
:arrow: ANEMONES!

If anything was gained by this thread could it at least be, learning the proper spelling? It was misspelled 10+ times!

lol yeah that improper spelling was driving me nuts. :crazyeye:

yer tellin me i went through 5 pages of crap for no pics!!!! come on man! put on the pics!

you picking on my spelling? :mrgreen: anyways good to see you back around, sence I couldn't get to see you for coffee while you were in Gods country I will have to check in with you this fall when I am in Vancouver for school.

Steve