Can't shut some people up, eh :razz:

boB,

Already had all that equipment on hand :eek: Must be some kind of reef freak... or something :razz:

There are very specific signs of the kind of worm that slimes snails to incapacitate, then eat them. Pic of dead snail covered in slime and detritus from the BB tank. Of particular note is the stray mucus with bits of detritus floating up from the snail shell into the water column. Had the presence of this worm confirmed by Dr. Ron over at RC, so I'm pretty confident, along with the following quote and my own observations, that we got a baddy in our 120g :2gunfire: :

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/120g-deadsnail-1.jpg

This quote is from http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rs/index.htm

Too bad this worm isn't out during the day when I'm awake to see it :confused:

Wild caught clowns are notoriously poor shippers, percs especially. Usually captive raised ones ship better but if they are shipped from the far ends of the earth and then sit on a loading bay in some back water hole and then get bounced around here and there and then dumped into a tank at a pet store that housed a fish that did have ICH well chances are you'll purchase a fish with a problem. QT a new fish, lower the salinity over a period, with in reason the slower the change the better as long as the fish is alright.
Are you sure these fish keep coming down with Ich, and not Brooklynella or especially Amyloodinium? Amyloodinium is extremely difficult to recognize until it becomes advanced. A six day treatment in a 1.011ppt specific gravity will most likely help. At this SG the cysts fail to encyst and excyst (hatch). The final thing you can try is a dip in praziquantel treated water, it's an anti parasitic, it is usually used for internal parasites but external parasites will most likely be killed off by the dip as well.

Doug

Thanks for everyone's posts, I've definitely learned a few new things about ich. I agree, its definitely stressful (to the fishkeeper) when this happens and I hope you end up with a healthy fish recovering on its own!

I had a ich problem recently myself; I just added a great Coral Beauty on the weekend and 24 hrs later it showed some signs of ich. It had as many as 20 tiny spots I guess. Long story short, I put it in the main tank (a 33 gallon reef, understocked so not a HUGE risk) directly after a slow 3 hr acclimation period. I have done this with all my livestock and never lost a thing. I DO have a QT standing by incase things get worse (but honestly I've never needed it in 8 months of reefing!!). Anyway, I cranked the temp to 86, got the new C.B eating and kept a close eye on maintaining pristine water parameters. Did small water changes and sucked out as much extra detritus and debris from the bottom as I could.

The C.B. now after 4 days shows NO signs of ich but I will definitely keep watching closely. All other fish(Scooter Blenny, Clown Goby, and Maroon Clown) show no signs either, What a relief!


I do have a couple questions about this whole process though and after reading the other posts here:

1. The coral beauty was litterally trying to swim straight up out of the bag almost the entire acclimation process. I assume trying to get air, but I had an airstone in the bag as it was dripped. I did not want to dump it in fast since the salinity in my tank was much higher! The fish was obviously stressed, so its no doubt it showed ich after getting in the main tank. Is this an oxygen problem or simply stress? Should a fish be moved quickly to higher salinity if it lookeds like it is severely stressed? I was debating just dropping it in the tank since it was litterally going crazy swimming up for over 2 hours!

2. It sounds like ich can hang around in the tank for a long time if the fish introduced it and it might come back? If I see no signs of ich for several months, can the fish really still be carrying it? There doesn't seem to be any way to erradicate a tank of ich then if it has ever had it before and you keep fish the whole time.

3. And finally, I have read a lot that people feed with garlic soaked food. Is this some fish store product you must use or is there some garlic extract at the local supermarket you can use? Is it harmful to feed all the fish with this even if they don't have ich?

Thanks for all the great help everyone!

OMG, you acclimated for 3 HOURS! That’s WAY to long! The signs that your Coral Beauty was showing you were severe stress and lack of oxygen, which you ignored.
The longer the organism has been in the bag, the greater the build-up carbon dioxide and other waste and this may affect other parameters, such as dissolved oxygen. He was running out of oxygen! HELP he was saying, HELP! You’ve been lucky not to lose a fish yet. But a larger fish (i.e. powder brown tang) uses much more oxygen; polluting the water it was in, creating ammonia, then you chance loosing the fish. This has happened to me. A powder brown I was acclimating didn’t even make it out of the bag. It went through a spasm and flipped on its side and dead. I was so in disbelieve. But it happens. Many factors to consider. The LFS water condition, the temp drop on the way home effecting temp, and many more factors.

How long should acclimation take? “Unless the water parameters are vastly different, for example a large difference in specific gravity, 30 to 60 minutes is all that is required for the majority of organisms to adjust to changes in conditions. The exception to this is the echinoderms: sea stars, brittle stars, crinoids, sea cucumbers and sea urchins. Echinoderms are generally intolerant of large changes in water properties, in particular salinity. It is necessary to take significantly longer to allow echinoderms to acclimate ”

Check out this site it will go more into detail. As a quote from the link above.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...climation.html

Also raising the temp to 86! My gawd that’s extreme! Its very hard on the fish and as mentioned before on this thread it does have pro’s and con’s. Regardless it just makes the cycle run faster, including the fish.

Of course your fish would not show signs visible signs of Ich after 4 days, the life cycle of the parasite can be drop off in 3-7 days. But the peak time is 4-5 days. Meaning the Ich cysts fall off the fish once the cysts mature & then they fall right on your rock or substrate and divide (multiply) and then look for a host (your fish) again. Knowing how the Ich life cycle works is KEY to understanding the stages it goes through and breaking them. Check out this web site for detailed info on the life cycle of Ich.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

Again many factors already mentioned in this thread & debated. If you get an outbreak and you treat with proven methods of treatment, leaving main tank fallow and then quarantine EVERY new addition (includes inverts, corals, frags, etc.) then your tank will remain Ick free. As long as you don’t get impatient and do the gamble and just add that new addition without QT or treatment.

Some have their own recipe of garlic, I use a product you can get at BigAl’s or most LFS’s for about $11 bucks called “Garlic Extreme”, it by Kent. Great stuff and saves you the hassle of mixing or chopping up your own. Also is not harmful for your fish if their not infected, but think of it as an added booster. It’s said to act as some what of an immune booster for the fish. Garlic soaked foods for your fish also are used for fish that are finicky eater or are not eating.


Hope this answers all your questions. :mrgreen:





:mrgreen:

So what exactly are the chances of garlic extract working on a clownfish with ich? Are the chances pretty much slim , or do I have a chance?

A quick update... last night I seen about 10 spots or so on each clown, maybe less on the male clown. Still are acting normal, no signs of stress YET. I did a water change on the tank when the spots were shown less on the clowns . I fed about 6 pinches of cyclopeeze to them yesterday as I didn't have a chance to get to the grocery store. Just trying to keep their bellies full. Will be grabbing garlic tonight.

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I can't say if it will work or not but the link I posted on immunity led me to believe that fish can develope a defense against parasites. Which fish will actually succeed is unknown, but its definately worth trying. Nate at BA's says he feeds garlic as a weekly regiment to boost immunity, though there is no real scientic evidense to support the theory, it is claimed to work.

Lee, you seem to know a lot about fish desease, please check my new thread, I have a problem with Mr. Phooms.

Interesting.. thanks Danny, just curious if anyone has some first hand experience with it... maybe I'll try RC and see if anyone has had any success.

Sorry to hear about Mr. Phooms

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Well said! :wink:


Hmm...don't seem to see a post on Mr. Phooms. Can you send me the link?

:mrgreen:

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Its ready now

http://www.canreef.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17638

Ok so I have been thinking, and IF possible.. with a talk with the rents... I will try to setup a QT for my fish... I just dont know where the tank will go.... I just need to have fish to look at, 6 weeks is too long.

So, if I choose to buy the supplies for QT, hoping I can do this cheap.. I am broke... what should I treat? hyposalinity? with a hydrometer? is that risky ? seems like it could be... and I definitely can't afford a refractometer (sp)

Or would I treat with meds?? Would I treat all the fish in my tank? Or just the clowns??

**Edit** : Also, I am going to BC next Thursday and will be back on the Monday, I won't be able to get the QT up and running and start treatment until then (if I can go through with this) ... will this be OK???? I am worried it might be too long, but then again.. if I can set it up, I can get them in there by Tuesday evening.

hmm, new thought again hah... the QT will need to cycle..... right? so i pretty much am screwed even if i decide to go qt...

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Not really, I just used tank water from my main tank. I also picked up some LR rubble from Wai's to use for bio support. You don't need this if you can use some kind of etablished filter media. Even a piece or two of base rock will work fine. Consider this, it will take three days of changing out water in the Q-tank to achieve the lowered salinity. This means at least 3-4 water changes, resulting in pretty healthy water, I buys you some time.

hm well I have a 20g tank.. I mean I could take water from there, but that would be like... half the tank :razz:

Soo if I did do that, I would just be doing a nice big watercahnge on the display tank... ?

I have an Aquaclear 150 (small) on the 20g.. it has ONE small piece of sponge in there, but it hasn't been in for very long.. 3 weeks? maybe longer.. but it's fairly small.

I need to get a heater, 10g tank (can all 4 of my fish go in there?) , my hydrometer (will this work?) .... and something for flow... ?

How hard is it exactly to do the hyposalinity with a hydrometer.. makes me a little nervous.

*Patience is the key to this hobby to be successful. You would need to leave your main tank to fallow for at least 6weeks or else why bother doing treatment on your fish, cause then they will go back into a tank and will become infected again. (Ich finding a host).

You could perhaps ask local reefers if they have any spare supplies kicking around that you can borrow and at a later time when you have more funds you can purchase the stuff you need for a QT used on buy/sell hardware forum.

If you do treatment of Hyposalinity it’s important to use a rafractometer as the plastic hydrometers are not accurate. Since your new to Hyposalinity treatment & there is many cautions you must take and monitoring, perhaps in your case, depending on amount & type of fish you are treating (Please post me this info) As well as your not sure if its ONLY ich that you may have, then I would suggest you to go with, Coppersafe product ($10 or less at any LFS)…NOT Cupramine but “Coppersafe” Although you do need a copper test kit (NOTE: get only the test kit from Seachem to monitor this copper) , its cheaper then a refractometer by far and Coppersafe (depends of fish species being treated) Is really easy to administer when correctly following the directions on the bottle. Also what I like about Coppersafe (NOT Cupramine ) is that unlike Cupramine (falls out of solution-has to be monitored VERY closely), Coppersafe copper stays in the water for 30days after you completed the dose. Then after the 30days, you do the steps to dilute the copper in this QT but leave the fish at least for another 10days in the tank, so you can monitor the fish (Parasite Free) as well as, giving your main tank the time (6Weeks) to fallow.

If you need step by step instruction I would be happy to assist you with it over the phone. Let me know.


Mentioned above. Treat ALL fish! Don’t want to miss anything and also don’t want a go through it again do ya?

Questions for you….

1. What size tank are your fish in now?
2. Is there any inverts in there?
3. How many fish do you have?
4. What species of fish, list?
5. Are the fish all eating?
6. Do the fish show signs of lethargic breathing?
7. Do they swim close to the surface of tank?
8. Do your fish scratch on rocks or sand?
9. Do your fish dart around in tank?
10. Can you supply pictures? Perhaps will give a better idea to the severity of infection.

Also to…Forgot to mention. Yes you do NEED established media for a quarantine tank setup, that’s the MOST important part. You need this to cheat the new tank setup cycle. Although if not done properly you can experience a mini cycle. To get established media if you don’t have, you can ask fellow reefers if you can borrow established media since you’re to far from me.

More questions for you…..

1. Are you running a skimmer on your current tank?
2. How long has your tank been running for?
3. How much live rock do you have?



O.k Off to lunch I go… Will check back with ya.

:mrgreen:

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Scott, improvise man! Remember that with no fish in your main tank there is less bioload. My skimmer hasn't taken much out of my main tank since the fish have been gone. If you have a power head in the main tank I'd just put the aquaclear on the Q-tank. If you absolutely can't get your hands on a refractometer, I have an old glass lab hydrometer you can use. I'll even chart where you need to be against my refractometer for the treatment.

Okay... let me try and do this in the correct order hehe

I am aware the tank must be left fishless for 6+ weeks.. I was simply saying if I can QT them myself, I will.. so I have fish to at least look at and to have experience in removing ICH as well. Just to clarify :mrgreen:

I think I can find a 10g tank, heater, and a HOB filter for a decent price, I realize now it's critical to have, and would rather have my own at home for good.

So you think I should do coppersafe instead of hypo? I am fine with that, no problems.. just a couple questions. How effective will the coppersafe be? Will it further stress my fish (i have heard copper is hard on fish?) And I will make sure I get COPPERSAFE, COPPERSAFE, COPPERSAFE haha (knowing me I'd end up coming home with cupramine lol) And I will need a copper test kit by seachem only?? I have never seen a test kit by seachem, I don't know if I'll be able to find that?? Does it have to be seachem? (I understand it's to match the coppersafe brand with the test kit brand..)

I may take up your offer for the telephone call just to be safe, I don't want to do more harm than good. Once this is all organized, and I've broke the news to the parents..... :rolleyes: I'll let ya know !

I figured I would need to treat all fish haha, duuuuuh :redface:

Now to your questions:

1.) 20 gallon tank
2.) There is 3 snails, 2 scarlet hermits, 1 Rose bubble tip anemone, and 4 Bubble tip anemones
3.) I have 4 fish.
4.) I have, 2 true percula clowns, 1 yellow watchman goby, 1 bicolor blenny.
5.) Yes, all fish are eating (like pigs)
6.) Err... lethargic breathing? Does that mean fast? lol! If so, no not so much, haven't payed super close attention, but no.. breathing is not fast on any fish
7.) The only two that sometimes swim near the top is the clowns.. no one else. But clowns are known to do that aren't they?? They by no means at the top of the water surface all the time.
8.) No. I have not seen them do so once.
9.) No. I have not seen any dart around... only if something startles them, or the clowns are bickering.
10.) I can take photos tonight, yes (at work) .. I doubt you will see any ich on them from a photo... I have to go right up to the glass and stare to see the ICH (I honestly don't think it's that bad, YET... but im no expert)

As for the media, all reefers in Calgary seem to be on opposite ends of the city.....but I suppose that's my only option? Like I said, I have an AquaClear 150 on the 20g that has been running for a month or so with a small piece of sponge in it. I assume that's not sufficient though.

Answers to more questions ..

1.) Yes, I am running a skimmer (AquaC Remora)
2.) My tank has been up since August 23 or 24th , of last year (almost 1 year old)
3.) I would say I have about.... 20lbs. MAX... maybe 15 pounds.. hard for me to say.

And just one last quick question... fallow means, just having a fishless tank right??

Phewph I think that's it.... Lee, I owe you big time for all this help... I hope I can do this on my own, my biggest worry is finding someone close (every local reefer seems to be on opposite ends of the city as me) for media, and finding a spot for the QT.. I know I can get a 10g with what I need for under 60$ or so...

haha Danny, my brain works slow.. give me time for improvising lol

so are you suggesting to take the skimmer off the display once the fish are in QT ,and use that on the QT? And then just use a powerhead for circulation in the display?

I can do that... I am already running a Fluval 404 on the 20g.. and I have a spare powerhead now.

I think I may be trying the copper method, but if I go hypo, I will give you a shout, really appreciate the offer Danny.


Thanks for ALL of your guys's support so far.... I really would be doomed with you all.

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If you are going to use copper, don't put anything in the Q-tank that you will want to use in the main tank after. It will transfer copper and kill your corals.

hahahaha oh wow... now see... it's a very , very good thing you told me that.

i forgot , copper is really deadly... thanks danny. told you id be doomed.

:eek: O.k you got me worried now.


Start here.... http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...cupramine.html

Even though this is for Cupramine by Seachem it has mainly the same principles. Also to search www.reefcentral.com under the disease forum and read many posts about copper to get the general idea of effectiveness. You can Google " Coppersafe by Mardel Lab " for info on that copper. To answer your other Q, about test kit, you can also read on Reef Central people's experiences as well as fights with the companies directly on the accuracy of the test kits. In my own experience I have come found Seachem's test kit to be the most accurate and easy to follow for to use with Coppersafe even though made by different companies.

I'm not even going to go into the chemistry difference between the two coppers (chelated copper, etc). Please read and Google and you will see.

Copper needs extreme caution and understanding to treat your fish without killing them yourself.

My suggestion would be if Bob if offering to treat them for you, I would be more likely to suggest his offer. Not only would it save you some money but also maybe the headache. I would just hate for an overdose or spike to happen or not monitor the levels and result in lossing your fish.

Also as Danny mention (Good point Danny) you do not want to add any equipment from your main tank that you want to use again. So you would leave the skimmer on the main tank.

One more thing….I noticed you mentioned you are running a 404 Fluval canister filter on you 20gal. Am I correct to say that you only have 1 small filter sponge media in your canister, even though this canister has four long slots made for sponge media on the side panel in the canister?? :eek:


:mrgreen:

Ok, soo..... I guess I don't QT them now? hah.

I guess I will have to talk to Bob...

I hope I didn't make a wrong impression as if I know absolutely nothing about the hobby... haha, I do know a bit, I read every day on the websites, books ,etc.

Anyways.. the Fluval 404 did have sponge. I threw them out as recommended by other reefers, because it builds up nitrates and such.

At home now... just checked the fish, and there are no spots right now.

I see the most spots at night, with actinic lighting... actinic goes on around 8, i see the most spots around 8 30 - 9 00 . How come?

Sooo..... time to send Bob a PM!

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How are the fishes appitites and activity now? If the ick is clearing up it could be that they are encysting, the ick will come bck even worse. This would be a good time for you to get them over to Bob's, before the cysts burst again and infect your fish even more.

The fish are eating fine, like pigs as usual, activity in all fish is normal.. nothing odd. No spots noticed since Thursday, which was only one or two spots.

I have been feeding garlic with the food.

Like I had mentioned earlier, I don't know if I can get them to Bob's this week, I am busy (I don't drive) , I have lots of stuff around home to do before we leave for B.C .. that's why I asked if it could wait until I get back. I can TRY to get them to Bob's before then, but I doubt I can.

Danny, wouldn't I have seen more ich than I did before they started encysting though.. I basically seen ich on the female clown ONLY one time ONLY , which was only about 10 spots max... I have seen maybe 1 speck on the male clown the entire time, I have seen no ich on the bicolor or yellow watchman the entire time..... Would it really be so bad to just keep trying the garlic?

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No it wouldn't be that bad if it seems to be working. I would question if is acutully ick that your fish have though. How long are you going to BC for?

I will be back on Sunday... so if some family member is feeling ambitious after the road trip, we could snatch up the fish and run them to Bobs (if hes ok with it of course) ... but I am betting on Monday or Tuesday evening :neutral:

If not ich, what would you guess it could be ? What would be a symptom to look for? Sorry for all the recent Q's ... just lots to learn I guess

ick
 

Maybe I just got lucky, but when my fish got ick, I tossed a couple of extra cleaner shrimp into the tank - a couple of days later . . . no more ick! Don't use copper treatment on the mandarin - it'll kill him. They don't get ick anyway because of their skin. My sister's fish had ick, she spent $$$ setting up a QT, medications, etc. Lost all the fish. Besides, cleaner shrimp are fun!

They might not show signs of Ick but add any stress for your fish and you could see that Ick is still in your tank. Hopefully not!

Dave

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Or clowns, or lionfish, or any scaleless fish for that matter. There shouldn't be any need to treat a manderine for ick anyway, they rarely get it.

I am under the impression now that ick is always present in our tanks. And just an update.... back from BC and my clowns still look healthy as can be ???? They don't look any worse since when I left, if anything I'd say better.

:question: