Kien,

These questions were answered.

"How long was the power out? 4hrs? Slightly more

What is you total system volume? 1100 litres

How many fish? Too many apparently

How did the inverts fair and which ones do you have if any? Fine until ammonia spike"



BTW, in case anybody bothered to check (which I did before I posted), the OP was NOT on Canreef since the 15th, when the original post was made, until she responded to yesterday, which explains why the questions were left unanswered. Again, everyone here should remember Canreef is not the OP's home site (UK-based, not a Canadian reefer).




From my own experience, I once made a totally stupid & very costly (for my livestock) mistake of forgetting to turn my power bar back on one of my tanks after a water change. I was in a rush because my father-in-law had called while I was in the middle of doing water changes with free tickets to a Canucks game. I rushed through my water change, plugged everything back in, but took off without looking to see if the power came back on (which it didn't since I turned off the powerbar before starting the water change). By the time I came home, I had lost 3 fish , which I felt very guilty about since this was a totally preventable accident. The tank was much smaller than the OPs, but my bioload was also much smaller, yet in the 4 hours I was gone to watch the hockey game, the oxygen level had dropped enough to kill the biggest fish, which then increased the rate of oxygen depletion and caused an ammonia spike. So yeah, a tank crash can happen in less than 4 hours if all the stars align against you and your tank (Murphy's Law). Not one of my finer moments in my fish-keeping career, but I now am very anal about ensuring everything is plugged in and working after a water change.

This is another lesson I hope others can learn without going through it themselves. "Double check everything post-water change"!!!

Anthony

Canucks probably lost too! Insult to injury!

:mrgreen:

How big was the tank Anthony? How much water did you drain out of it before you took off to the game? What three fishes died? Sorry for all the questions, I just have a genuine interest on this topic. I just can't seem to believe this can happen in such a short time. There is gotta be a better explanation to the cause of it. Thanks for your time.

If I'm honest I don't actually know wha the plan is, I think I'm just leaving things to settle for now. Literally can't afford to restock at the mo net so I don't really have an option. I'm selling off some coral because I'm more of a fish person

Seahorse very good :)

I'm far from a scientist but I enjoy making the videos... which is why I do it.

I actually have a learning difficulty which is why I speak slightly slowly, one of the reasons I started doing the channel was for that (I'm improving compared to my first videos you'll notice)

No one pointed it out to me, I normally post and then come back to check, I make my videos in an effort to help beginners. Not experts, I've been doing this nine years now so I know a little but I never claim to be an expert.
I've given my explanation in the video, everything which I know pointed to tank losing oxygen. I had a reasonably heavily stocked tank and I think that probably contributed to it. The only thing I did the night before was clean the glass.

No, actually this was a few years ago and the Canucks WON!!!:wink: I've only been to a handful of games, but they've actually won every game I've attended over the last decade or so. This wasn't true in the 80s or 90s though.

Rich,

it was only a 34g RSM, so much smaller than the OP's reef tank. I never had much luck with that tank and tore it down and replaced it with my 93g cube after this incident. I lost a med. Marine betta, a Naoko fairy wrasse and a third fish I cannot remember now. It was a complete Brain-fart moment and I still feel bad that my carelessness lead to their needless deaths. I admit I was really shocked that they died in such a short period of time without circulation. Before this happened, I would have sworn a tank could go half a day without power without suffering any casualties (unless overstocked like my main reef tanks usually are). The third fish may have been a mandarin goby. My leopard and yellow canary wrasses survived, but they hid in the sand for another day or so. I was in the process of planning a switch over to a bigger tank and had just recently added the MB in anticipation of that upgrade. My theory is the water change dropped the tank's ORP and without turning on my powerbar, the oxygen level dropped quickly. The 2 wrasses survived probably because they are used to surviving on lower oxygen levels when they bury themselves in the sand every night. As long as the pumps were working, this bioload was fine but without circulation it was clearly too much for the available dissolved oxygen levels in that size tank (4 small fish & 1 med.).

I had done a 10g water change and did another 10g change when I came home from the game.

Now I own 3 battery operated air pumps, a generator and a battery back up (UPS) in case of blackouts to ensure that I can at least keep my tanks oxygenated. I also check every piece of equipment after each water change to make sure everything is plugged in and working again.

Not only was your tank reasonably heavily stocked, the fish you kept were mostly large tangs and other species that require heavily oxygenated waters to thrive. Once circulation was lost, these large tangs would have been the first to go and then it would have been a cumulative effect in a very negative way since each death would have depleted the oxygen level even faster and create a dead zone at the bottom layer of water, which is of course where the living fish would settle to conserve energy (Murphy's Law at work). Without the energy to stay near the surface, those fish would have been the next to succumb to oxygen deprivation. This is my theory of what happened in your tank.

Anthony

Would have never noticed, you speak very well in your videos.

We all go through ups and downs in this hobby. I've seen guys with full flourishing sps reefs make a mistake and crash the whole thing losing a fortune in coral. If its something you love, ya just gotta keep on going. If I were you, I'd re aquascape first. Make your tank look different than when it crashed like a fresh start sort of thing. Then go slowly from there bringing in new favorite fish!

Here's a vid of a friend's tank (Cabinetman) who posted earlier in this thread. This tank went without power for over a half a day and its full of big tangs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PEHCTBfDXQ

From his post on pg 2: "Something ain't right. I don't doubt she had a mass die off but I don't thing 4 hours without power did it. I've got 3 times the bioload and I've had power go out for half a day before and I lost nothing. Id like to know what really happened."


I don't think o2 levels drop that fast to fatal levels (1 hour or so as OP claims) when this tank went over 12 hrs with no
fatalities.

From the speed of the tank crash I can only guess that even though all looked well that the tank was red lining on Dissolved oxygen content already and the power out pushed it over the edge.

I didn't hear a mention of a protein skimmer, and maybe surface agitation wasn't sufficient to maintain high enough levels of dissolved oxygen for the amount of bioload to sustain them once circulation stopped.

Although the bacteria would have been the last thing to die rather than the first, and probably via ammonia spike rather than lower lvl's of oxygen

Every tank reacts differently it depends on so many factors like how much live rock, how stocked is the tank, how many high maintenance corals and fish are there, how easily do they become stressed and so on. All that factors in

Remember just because one tank will do well with no power for 12 hours does not mean every tank will react in the same way some do well others can crash in a matter of hours

I learned very early on in this hobby there is no such thing as standard or baseline everything involved in this hobby is a guideline there is nothing standard in this hobby at all and it is something that too many people in the hobby forget.

My personal opinion is that people here are disbelieving because loumaggs posted the video and didn't follow up and are less inclined to believe her story and that the fact she is on so many sites which by the way doesn't bother me but aparantly it bothers a lot of people but each to their own

Lack of oxygen is really the only thing that will kill that fast in a power outage.

Heat could have killed the fish too. Poisoning is also a possibility. Over-dosing meds or additives also. To say 02 deprivation is the only possible source is short-sighted in my view.

I know some tanks are different than others, but the same laws of physics and chemistry apply to all. I have never heard of any reef tank failing due to oxygen deprivation in such a short period of time as the OP surmises. It doesn't make any sense given the vast bulk of evidence indicating otherwise from practical experience by well experienced keepers here and elsewhere.

My own experience also indicates the stated cause is "fishy". I had a tank go almost 2 full days without power... with one minor loss of a fish that wasn't doing that well anyway. All other inhabitants lived, although 3 of the 14 later got ich. The temp in the tank dropped a few degrees (which actually assists with o2 uptake) while I had a blanket over it for about 40 hrs. A dark tank, as presumably the OP's tank was as the claimed outage happened at night, would also use up less o2 due to the relative inactivity of the fish.

My apologies...but colour me sceptical.

Why would there be poisoning or over-dosing meds or additives in a power outage??? :neutral: As things start dying from lack of oxygen, their deaths will obviously create a snowball effect, but it's the lack of oxygen that is the primary cause in power outages in tanks that size, with that many fish, at this time of year (they have the same seasons as us in England). Heat wouldn't have changed that fast in a tank that size at this time of year. Anthony provided evidence of lack of oxygen. I've seen it happen within hours - several examples actually. It's really not that uncommon.

I don't think the "beneficial bacteria" loumaggs talks about would have been any significant contributing factor at only the 1 hour mark as she describes in her video though.

For those interested, Denny (reefwars) lost his tank in a power outage in Calgary recently too.

Also, here at Canreef it seems us "friendly Canadians" are the only ones that seem to be acting so "unfriendly" to loumaggs.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2579672

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/marin...rience-173993/

http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-...rience.248900/

I don't think scepticism is the same as unfriendliness.

In court there is a concept of clean hands. Those plaintiffs that don't play by the rules are treated differently than honest people seeking help. In this case the OP did not come to share an experience, seek advice, establish relationships, etc. She came here as a business person to advertise her business. When other non vendor businesses are linked to, the mods delete the link. I imagine if a non vendor business started posts like this, the posts would be deleted and the account banned.

That is my issue with the OP. If a fellow hobbyist shared a bad experience (eg tang they kept in a 40g died)they would get support, advice, possible criticism of a poor stocking choice. If some reef store posted about how they recommend tangs for 40g tanks they would be excoriated. Businesses are held to a higher standard than your average joe, since we expect them to know what they are doing.

The OP posted a commercial video containing erroneous information (your BB dies after an hour without power), crappy advice (tear your rock work apart to remove a fish body), and manipulation (poor me may not have the funds to continue, stay tuned to my channel to hear, links to direct cash asks). She deserves to be held to a higher standard of scrutiny, and held to the same rules as other businesses. Otherwise, let Denny back and allow him make posts sharing some neat new zoa, with a link to his site (for example).

Denny's been back for months and months. He chooses not to participate.

Ian's post reflects my feelings exactly...and its the reason I didn't just pass this thread by as I normally would.

Do you go to bed at night in fear that a short power interruption will take out your whole reef/fish tank? I certainly don't ...as I have experienced dozens of short power interruptions in my 35 yrs keeping aquariums, with little to no losses incurred as a direct result of a 1-4hr outage.

If I was a newbie and watched that vid (as presumably hundreds have and many will do), my thoughts would be... why would I put thousands into a hobby that can be wiped out in 3hrs from a normal power interruption? It may keep me out of the hobby entirely. Thus, the OP should be held to a higher standard than your average poster.... not to mention the funds soliciting.

From another site:
....example of such soliciting working as intended by the OP.

When money starts being involved, combined with fact the OP admits she is no expert, plus some very dubious advice and conclusions dispensed...well, like I said...colour me sceptical.

She certainly has a lovely speaking voice with its own cadence and charm..but some of the things she has said, combined with her big reach and money requests...well you get the picture. :)
Cheers.

As a matter of fact, if I was admin here I'd sent her a pm immediately requesting she refrain from posting links that solicit money for her own personal gain on this site. ie: post the actual vid, not a link that requests funds.

Well said Ted!

I guess if any lesson to be learned if if you are investing serious $ in livestock and/or care about the livestock it is wise to get a Seneye or Apex that can alert you in cases like this. That and a UPS or Battery Backup device.

I have all four personally as I have had too many close calls with snow storm outages as well as lightning storms in the summer.

I do feel bad for OP, but I think many are skeptical of her intentions due to the mass posting across other forums and the sign off on her video which makes people assume its for subscribers or $.

I'm not saying that is in fact the case, but to give you an example of why I am personally skeptical is the Fort McMurray fires. I work at a major financial institution assisting those affected as well as volunteering my time at Red Cross and various charities, and you wouldn't believe how many people try to scam their way to get money when they weren't actually affected by those events in the least. If anyone has experienced this, you start to take everything with a grain of salt.

While true fish might use less oxygen at night, a tank also has less dissolved oxygen at night with the lowest levels of dissolved oxygen just before lights on. All photosynthesis is halted without light, and algae and zooxanthellae will use up dissolved oxygen and release carbon dioxide at night.

Wow, for a new member (just over a month), you're going out of your way to change this forum into something its never been and to single-handedly break the stereotype of Canadians as friendly, accepting, sympathetic people. It's like you won't be satisfied until the OP leaves Canreef to avoid all this unnecessary online hate spewing from your keyboard. I guess "Haters gotta hate" as they say.

Just because YOU can't imagine that her fish died due to a lack of oxygen does not mean it didn't happen for that reason. As Myka and others have pointed out, power outages of various durations can (and have) caused several tank crashes to reefers we know. Each tank is different. One tank may come through with no casualties, others may suffer a complete crash. Ok, so it's never happened to you. Thank your lucky stars, but don't take your good fortune to mean that your experience is the same as everyone elses.

Your screenname "ComfortablyNumb" must be Ironic rather than an accurate description of your online persona/attitude.

Here's some free (unsolicited) advice:

1) If you have a problem with the OP, don't open her threads or post on them

2) If you have a problem with the OP's videos, don't watch them (nobody is forcing you)

3) If you feel like typing something hateful and nasty or giving advice to the forum administrators and moderators, go to your fridge, grab a brew and become "comfortably numb" instead.

BTW, if you want to attack my credentials, I've been keeping fish for almost 40 years, have a BSc in Aquaculture and an MSc in Aquacultural Engineering from UBC, and have worked for several years both in the petshop industry and working on commercial fish farms.

Exactly. This reverse-photosynthetic process exacerbated the low dissolved Oxygen issue and would have made things worse, NOT better.

I may be new here SF, but I have been admin on a software-related BBS for over 8 yrs.

You give me far too much credit I think. I also believe you are confusing my scepticism with hostility.

Its not just me saying it, if you'd take notice. Again, I believe you are confusing scepticism with hate or hostility. Hostility is however, clearly evident in your post to me.

Again, my friend, its not just me saying it. And it also goes against my 35 yrs experience and also in some very tangible ways, it goes against common sense.

Indeed, as I posted previously, power outages have happened to me many times over 35 yrs. And not once did I experience a complete die-off due to a 1-3hr power outage. Nor has any friend of mine, even one who's vid I posted earlier, ever experience anything like that with his tank, which is far more heavily laden bio-load wise than her tank. Our suspicions are there was something else wrong with this tank because an o2 crash in that short a period of time is, to my (alleged) mind, highly unlikely.

Never, ever judge a book by its cover. *wink

I read your "advice" and you are asking more than its worth.

I have zero intention of attacking your credentials. What I am upset with is your open hostility. The OP is clearly lacking credentials herself. Here's some advice for you, if you don't mind...go back and re-read my comment. Our main objection to the OP is her attempts at personal monetary gain from her posts here and elsewhere.

*edit* May I ask, do you think she should make money from posting here?

It's an all out girl fight, please keep the hair pulling and scratching to a minimum....

lol..I thought that WAS the attraction of an all out girl fight. ; )

Personally, I'd enjoy watching some hair pulling and scratching, but let's move this thread into a better direction. After all it IS May Long Weekend and we should be having a Fiesta not a fight!

Yours truly,
Canreef Staff (just in case CN didn't realize that YES we ARE watching) ;)

Agreed on all points. I know you are watching and I appreciate that you didn't close off this thread.

Point of clarification:

If I posted a link of my tank and asked members for money for my own personal gain in that link, would you allow the post stand?

Thank-you for your patience.

Sure, why not?

High I'm going to post a link of my tank and I'm asking members for money for my own personal gain in that link ...but you get frags, or maybe because if I ask people will give my money, and if they do does anyone really care if that person gives me money...hey hold on please send me money just cus, PayPal preferred...I'm a bad bad man...

Thanks Anthony! I was referring to other questions though, but I got my answers :-)

:pop2:

I will give you a dollar :)

Stealing Kiens seat are you

Answered in my pm to you.