Yeah, there's a few things about the sump too... ;)

Like you said, there's probably not enough volume to catch the back flow from the plumbing, but also those 2 filter socks are going to plug up FAST with that much volume of water. Looks like a Concept built sump...they are good to deal with.

You should be able to at least take the one back for store credit since it was not complete. There's no reason you should be stuck with it.

Skimmer....sump...ugh!! Thanks for the extra grey hairs!! Lol

You should have come here first!

Sorry, this always happens on someone's first build, it's just that your first build is huge so your mistakes will be huge. :wink:

I texted Matt at concept to see if the sump is large enough to hold a second skimmer. Physically there is room in the compartment for another ATI 250. Cost wise it would be another $800 ish to purchase another one. Then there would be no haste of returning or trying to sell equipment. The 2 skimmers then should be more then enough? Then really the only concern would be keeping a good eye on the socks ?

I really appreciate everyone's help, advice and praise on the tank. It may be a bit discouraging now but benificial in the long run. I may need a week on the beach to distress before I finish the set up though! Lol

Travis, the concern with the sump size is when there is a power out or the return and skimmer is shut off there will be back flow into the sump. The operating water level of the tank will be higher than the non-operating water level of the tank. All that volume, plus the volume in the pipes will back flow into the sump. Your sump size compared to the size of the display tank is very small, so there is a concern that you do not have enough empty volume in the sump to hold the back flow without the sump overflowing. Some people use check valves to prevent back flow, but they need to be cleaned regularly or they will leak, so a long power outage would mean a wet floor. The best option is to have a sump large enough to hold the full volume of back flow.

As far as the 2nd skimmer goes, you would want to run the skimmers in parallel rather than putting them both in the same chamber. If you put them both in that same chamber then they will be re-skimming water that the other has already skimmed and will thus be less efficient. The footprint of the skimmer is just over 16 x 10"? So if the sump is say 22" wide then you could put the skimmers beside eachother with a divider running between them and the water would flow through each section separately and prevent them re-skimming.

If you can forgive my prehistoric 2 min drawing...this is what I mean (use your imagination for the baffles between the skimmers and the return pump haha).
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k4...2/Untitled.jpg

I'd say the twin skimmers would be plenty and the second could be added later, no need to rush out and blow the $800 now. There's plenty of big salt tanks out there running no skimmer so I'm not going to say it's an absolute requirement but something to consider none the less as it would be quite beneficial. It also sounds like it will be cheaper to buy two skimmers rather than one larger one, plus if you every sold them you'd do much better with the smaller models.

For the sump volume just make sure nothing bad happens when you cut the power. Might be fine but to me looks like it runs around 2/3rds full so you have around 23 gallons of space at an absolute max. 1 inch from the display is 21 gallons so when you add the other factors you're short for sure. I also usually budget 2" from the display to be conservative as the other-flow teeth can clog up with algae and raise the water level a bit plus siphon back-flow will usually drop the water level in the display below the overflow. Check valves help but I don't recommend relying on them.

Nah, that's a bit silly IMO. Yes theoretically makes some sense but with intakes put at one end and outputs put at the other and water flowing through the sump there's really no way of re-skimming water. And even so, so what? The water is constantly circulating through the sump, it'll get skimmed eventually.

I shut off all power to the pumps last night and the sump held all the water until the main tank level got below the overflow box. So that is good.

The sump slot is large enough for 2 skimmers but not wide enough to run them parallel as in the drawing. They would only be able to sit side by side

What's wrong with efficiency? The sump he has now would not fit them side by side, they'd be one after the other, they would definitely be re-skimming. I wouldn't buy a new sump just for this mod though.

It all fits? That's good! How much extra space do you have? The skimmers will have volume in them as well, so they will add a bit to the sump when it's turned off too. As I said, I wouldn't go buy a new sump just for the parallel mod, but it would be ideal if you had to buy a bigger sump anyway.

As far as the socks go, you could put some egg crate on top of the sock holder and put some flat filter media in there instead if the socks clog up too fast or you get tired of washing them all the time.

I turned off everything, pump, skimmer and there was still a fair amount of room left in the sump before it would overflow. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...psyvzwcscl.jpg[/IMG]

To be fair you suggested putting them side by side with a divider between, I was suggesting that divider is silly and really accomplishes nothing. Plus even in the same chamber one after the other doesn't guarantee output from one skimmer will enter the other, and even if this was a concern it would be rather simple to position the skimmers to make it less likely. If your concerns relate to efficiency your efforts would be much better spent elsewhere.

Cool, just keep an eye on it as things change over time, like I mentioned algae on the overflow guard, check valves not sealing properly and additional equipment like skimmers and reactors all add up. If you increase your return flow that will also increase the blow back.

I'd say running the skimmers side by side is perfectly fine, if Mindy is correct you'll notice the first skimmer is obviously doing a better job than the second but I'd bet you wouldn't notice any consistent difference between the two to suggest that is the case.

Awesome! :thumb:

The difference would probably be close to negligible, but it's neither here nor there because clearly his current sump is working just fine for him. :) For the record, I meant skimmer efficiency, not power efficiency.

Wow
 

Definatly a good way to start, go big or go home. What u gonna put in there?

After all the stress about skimmers and sumps I've decided to just go with goldfish! Lol
mostly nice big angels and tangs and soft coral.

Nice new thread title Keener !!

Lovin' your build size Travis :smile:
I see you're already taking all the advice in stride. This is a great attitude to adopt not only for forum advice but on-line stuff too. Good on ya.
Not much in this hobby is cast in concrete.
With that said ...

I like the idea of you adding a second skimmer once you start adding fish/things that produce waste.
As was stated, it will be much easier to sell 2 smaller skimmers down the road over 1 monster 1 that will target a very small market. Plus the cost of 2 big ones is SOOO much less than 1 monster.
And you'll have a nicer time servicing 2 units with an alternating schedule. Fully cleaning a skimmer's neck and cup retards it's ability for up to a few days, so having a pair would be awesome.

I also agree with you not using the canisters. They are pretty costly for what you will use them for - media reactors - and canisters can quickly become nitrate factories.
Regardless of how you re-purpose/sell them, I'll suggest you keep them out of this build.
Find some appropriate reactor units for things such as GFO/BioPellets and Carbon, and with a tank your size I HIGHLY recommend a Calcium reactor.
You really don't want to be messing with dosing Alk and Ca with that volume.
Small tanks like my 100g system are cheap and easy enough to monitor, but if I was to run a system as big as yours I'd go broke dosing, even with bulk 2-part :surprise:
It costs me upwards of $50/yr for bulk chems. Multiply that by 7 or 8 ..... :wink:
Calcium reactor media and CO2 is a far cry cheaper and much easier to maintain.

And socks ...
I currently use 3 x 4" felt socks (14" tall). They will plug up after 8-9 days and are swapped out weekly.
The equivalent to my 3 pack is 1 x 7" sock. (math)
I don't currently know my GPH flow through my sump, but math is telling me it's between 665 and "X" GPH.
In my case I've found the sweet spot for my skimmer's flow-through rate with the number being suggested @ 6.1 X total system volume (suggested for skimmer efficiency).

So, with me needing approximately 610ish gallons per hour flow through my sump (100g system x 6.1), 1 x 7" sock can handle it just fine. But it needs a weekly change.
In your case, math tells me you'll need a flow rate of;
650 gallon system just shy of 4,000 GPH
800 gallon system just shy of 4,900 GPH
And this will apply to your return pump selection, plus plumbing sizes.

So if you compare my system to say, your 650 TOTAL gallon system with a suggested proper flow rate of 6.1 times 650, you're looking at just shy of 4,000 GPH.

Your 4,000 GPH divided by my 610 GPH (for 1 sock) could potentially mean you need up to 6-1/2 or even 7 x 7" filter socks to handle the flow recommended for your skimmer(s) to handle your system ....... :surprise:

Once your system is populated, there's a math-based potential suggesting you will need to change your 2 x 7" filter socks every couple of days, so be prepared for it. Spare socks are part of my arsenal.

Keep the pics coming dude, we all thrive on them :biggrin:

Opinions??
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...psktljhhul.jpg[/IMG]

I won't comment on your rock layout because I love lots of open spaces and open sandbed areas.
Rock bommies and such ...

OK, I'll put some input in ... :wink:
Now that I've had my tank running for 3 years, I've found that I regret many of my LR position choices.
If I could re-do my stuff, I'd have lots of low rock -midtank- for SPS growth and keep the rock to a minimum as to not affect/restrict flow from returns/powerheads.

My ideal tank/reset my tank will have rock no higher than 1/3rd the height of my tank, and probably not nearly as much poundage as what's recommended as far as pounds/gallon goes.

You have so much room in your tank, but so many flow issues to think about ....

I want to be able to see the fish swim around. I think I have lots of paths for the but also in the left corner some caves for them to hide. Some shelfs for coral. I don't know if I'm completely happy with it. But after 6 hours of climbing in an out of the tank carrying Crunk of live rock each weighing 60 pounds my back says it's good for now lol

I hear ya. I pack steel around and know it adds up.
100bs here, 75bs there, it adds up to a sore neck and a bad sleep.

Like I said, keep the swimming areas open for the BIG fish you will eventually buy and all will be good.
I like rock bommies as they encourage grouping/foraging, plus they are good for sandbed spacing. A bommie is a tower and leaves lots of room for a sandbed.

I'm all for lots of sandbed, so the less LR the better.
And a natural 'this here and that there' look.

Nothing in a Reef Tank looks worse than a 'fruitstand' layout, with it sloped from the back to the front.

I agree. I do not care for that look as well. But I quest everyone has their own ideas and preferences for aquascaping

And on the 2nd day he said "let there be light"![IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...psw132qm4a.jpg[/IMG]

Maybe paint the PVC black or silver ? :-)

I'm using black gorilla tape to wrap all the wires to the pipe...so most of the pipe will be black. Maybe one day I'll pretty it up a bit. I just want this tank running lol

I think the rock is decent - I like the shelf pieces. I don't like that piece that's at the front near the right side that's sitting all by itself - I'd just remove it and have some nice open sand area. I might even remove the single one behind it too.

I agree. Jim and I moved that piece and a few others around on the right side today. Getting some figi crete off Eli tomorrow and I'll take a photo of the final design incase things get shifted again

be careful what you wish for :lol:

oh, and I had to google gorilla tape. That's cool, except it'll be a royal pain in the ass to remove any one of those lights if you every need to service or replace one.

Maybe corrugated conduit piping ? They sell these at Ikea and other places to help wrap up and hide computer wires behind and under desks.

http://1.imimg.com/data/1/E/MY-62975...es_250x250.jpg

Use it to wrap over your PVC and hold your light's wires in place. I use it under my stand to hide/cover my wires.

That's a good idea. Changed the right side of the tank rock around and created a cool cavern and overhang. [IMG][IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...psjvrnxyco.jpg[/IMG][/IMG]

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...pscr5whlww.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...psonfawjrh.jpg[/IMG]

Its either my eyes or you are shaky with your photos...ask the rocks not to move and try again...just kidding looks great.

I have the original build on YouTube if you want to somewhat create the deep cave we did at the warehouse.Below is the link check it out,hope that helps a bit.
I agree with Kein on those corrugated conduit piping as I am using them for my lights wiring.
I feel a little different on the amount of rock than some other folks not that I am creating a crazy discussion simply from my own experiences.
I always believed for best filtration is as natural as possible with a little helping hand from Carbon and a reactor or dosing and as a main filtration would be the amount of surface created or placed in our little boxes that creates all types of pores (macropores, mesopores, micropores, fracture, vuggy,...)
There is no man made surface that is created for our hobby that contains all the surface require to carry a vast array of filtration bacteria than the rock we place in those boxes.Yes all rocks are not equal as some are heavier than others for a reason (Rocks normally decrease in porosity with age)
When you go diving most of the fish we have in our aquariums are in or near the rock work be it for shelter or food. In my case I have over 120 fish and counting without any loss or damage by picking or fighting for a hole to call home, and I still believe my system is empty.
All aquariums be it fish or reef setups are beautiful in my eyes simply cause the owner love what they are creating but with every design consequences arise,...

Click photo

Got salt! Thanks! [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...pszxqafqmo.jpg[/IMG]

My 1st additions! 10 cromies and a piece of pink coral!

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...psz38tlwg5.jpg[/IMG]

Aquascape looks awesome! Great start!

Thanks! I've had allot of help from Jim, Eli, Matt at Concepts and the guys at Golds! Even though opinions vary and I'll go through some learning pains, everyone had been helpful and supportive!

Poor leather seats...lol

Great thread so far, Keep them pictures coming please.

That is one big build! I can't wait to see what you put in it! Exciting!

Nice thread and keep the pics coming.

I'd like to add one thing as well in regards to the aquascape... I like what you did and love the shelfs and the pukani, I'm using the same rock from Eli and really happy with it, however try to keep/reaquascape if possible to a bare minimum in height...

If you plan on going SPS and they all start to grow in, you will have issues with the height, best is to use rock below the half point of the tank... I am currently thinking to redo my scape and trust me, I'm not looking forward to that...

Here is a link to my aquascape which has already been changed a bit... the left pillar is no longer there and I'm most likely taking the right pillar down as well (the cement is holding on pretty well)

Thanks Ginu! I don't have to be concerned with the hight of the rock because I will be limited to the coral I can keep with the Angels I plan on adding to the tank. (For now anyways...I have been told I will change my mind later to remove the angels to have more of a variety of coral). For now it's leathers and softies...and experimenting on what will not be a tasty salad! Lol