But you should sell sand. Then, all the equipment to support that system, then all the chemicals and medias, dosing regimiments, etc etc. That's just good business. The rest of the industry plants it's backbone on maintaing a sewage treatment plant. Why shouldn't you. Lol

Old sand can be one cause of algae. To be fair, Albert never said, you can can't have a clean tank with sand. I took his post to be tongue in cheek anyways.

As I read the thread, I'm reminded of the Propositional Fallacy that I learned many years ago. I think it is was called Denying the Antecedent. :)

I did actually replace my 14 year old sand with new sand after years of battling hair algae and dinoflagellate with regular water changes, gravel vacuum, cleanup crew, algaecides, protein skimming, Chemiclean, etc. Nothing helped. Now, problem gone.

Cept it was just one tank. And I had just removed the sand. Strangely enough, two weeks later, algae is magically gone! Like magic! Oddly effective magic! Practical magic!

Edit: I get the impression that you don't like me very much and that you're belaboring the point for little good reason given that nothing I've said is factually incorrect. You can go over this with a fine tooth comb if you want broski :D

Cuz that's what bitches do. I'm not a bitch.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...hlight=bronies

The guy posted his love for bronies. Whatevs!

That was Tyler (spit.fire) living out his dream via my unattended account!!!!

I totally agree. Even if covered with coraline or zoas, it just doesn't look natural.

My Flasher Wrasse sleeps at the base of the rocks. He builds himself a cocoon.

I like a sand bed and don't generally have a problem with them either....

I have a belief system though....

A sand bed is it's own ecosystem within the equarium. As such it needs it's own attention. I keep a sand star sand sifting goby and both Astra and nassarius snails plentiful if my system to turn the sand.... The key is turning the sand... And that combo does it... I don't aim power heads at it or anything....

I am currently running biopellets and Rowa so my nutrients are low... Which helps with keeping algae at bay, but before the biopellets with just Rowa I would from time to time get some algae that would start on the sand and with a water change I would just vacume it all up and out.... Wash the sand a dump it back in....

If you have a system with excess nutrients they will go somewhere..... Hopefully it's out with a water change.... Or they will find their own way to be 'productive' as in algae.

With all my tanks in the beginning with the blooms I run a few scoops of red slime remover with the skimmer off for a few days then skim it out... I find it really helps in the beginning.

It comes down to TWO things:
1- EXCESS nutrients - run a PO4 remover and biopellets.... Or more water changes
2- livestock NOT turning over your sand - go BUY the items I listed above.

Pick which your failing at and fix it....

I would wonder how much macros help.... I run a few types and chaeto is the best grower by far and home to some life. Maybe the macros just take the easy nutrients on the first pass and the leftovers get used by the pellets and Rowa.

I tried the 'no name' high capacity gfo and it did nothing!!! I measured the PO4 in the tank and the output from the reactor an hour later and it was the same - I now only use ROWA cause it works for me and I can measure the difference...

no such luck with leopards or melanurus tho. i tried making it work and couldn't bear to watch for more than a day.

My leopard and melanurus are doing fine the melanurus is definitely in charge.... The first day was brutal.... The poor leopard was definitely the looser of a few strikes..... The leopard will stay out of the way of the melanurus now... My tank is a 90g with a lot of rock...

I'm referring to the fact that these fish became incredibly stressed trying to bury themselves under sand that wasn't there. Besides the fact that I much prefer the look of sand, I needed it for my fish.

I had a Grey Head Wrasse (very similar to Melanurus) in my 90 with bare bottom. He slept at the base of the rocks too - he was in there for 2 years or so. I don't know what's so hard to watch?

On two separate occasions I tried to go bb. Both my leopard wrasses and melanarus were damaging themselves trying to bury themselves in nothing. They're meant to sleep in the sand but I did try going without it. I didnt like watching them so stressed.

I also wanted to mention Albert that I know there are benefits to going/starting BB, and there are many beautiful BB tanks in this hobby, so it simply boils down to personal preference. I do believe however that most algae problems can be avoided, whether it be closer monitoring, consistent water changes, getting overwhelmed with fancy chemicals or relying on too many technical products to list a few.
Taking two steps backward to figure out why something is wrong is better than taking one step forward in the wrong direction.

Sorry if it has been said already, but easiest way to keep your sand clean is with an orange spot sleeper goby. They are tireless workers, (and interesting to watch, too) and their constant sand sifting ensures that any detritus is taken away by the water column and out through your overflows.

I lost mine a few months ago (they will find the smallest hole in your tank top) and tried going without for now (I wanted to try some bottom LPS corals). So I got a tiger tail cuc instead. However, he spends most of his time in the rocks and has failed to keep the algae from starting up on my sand. I am planning to get another goby, as I have had about enough of this algae.

If you have an algae problem, and if it won't go away, and you may have had high PO4 levels and you have sand, it's then plausible that said sand is binding the suspected PO4 within it's porous structure AND therefore, removing and/or replacing said sand "could" alleviate or eliminate the original problem of algae in a tank.
That about it, Albert?

Gobies won't clean it, sifters won't sift it, chemicals may leach it back out, but a quick way to fix is to remove. As an option. If you wanted to fix it quickly. It may or may not appeal to your aesthetic sensibilities, but can and often does fix a particular problem.

Mental note, install breathalyser on Submit button :)

Yup, sometimes replacing the sand can be quicker than spending endless time trying to figure out what the problem is and still not find it when the simplest cause is right there in the sand. If it works great, if not, move on. No need to start an argument whether or not the sand is causing the problem in someone else's tank.

Obviously, replacing the sand wouldn't be the first option until everything else has been looked at.

Well, for me it is pretty simple:
Goby = no algae on sand
No Goby = algae on sand

And my P04 is consistently zero or near zero (Hanna checker). But yes, am sure sand traps P04. That's what the Goby is for. He stirs it up and it is taken away by the water column. Like I said, that is the easiest solution (instead of changing or frequently vacuuming your sand).

I like sand...

So do I. That's why I replaced mine with new sand. My old sand was turning black and had Hydrogen Sulfide. Is that bad? :)

The good news is that my hair algae is gone completely and I've had to feed my turbo snails nori ever since. Previously, there was enough algae for all of the herbivoires to eat and the algae would grow back to provide more food for them.

This is gonna get wordy:

Sometimes you get old tank syndrome. Sometimes you started off the wrong foot and didn't have the best set up. The list goes on. I agree with you, these problems can be avoided, but it assumes you're going into your tank as an experienced hobbyist.

Old tank syndrome is easy to figure out - Buildup of organics bound to substrates. You can't exactly just ditch your rock structures, so sands up for the chopping block.

I don't agree with this. They will assist with sand they can get at. And that's it. They're industrious, not magic.

Hey, someone addressed the topic without flaming me! *Awkward hug*

Bingo.

Do you find that your propensity for fun diminishes as you get older? -____-

Walter, I don't mean to point out the obvious, but your formula doesn't work for everyone. I sell tons of those gobies. I still see people with nutrient buildup issues because of their rock work, crappy skimmers, not enough flow, etc, etc, etc. Sure, they could improve these aspects, but that doesn't change the fact that they went for however long with crap advice and crap setups which led to the problem in the first place. How do you solve for x when x is years of sh1tty tank? Often, removing the sand and running it BB for a few water change cycles is the easiest and most effective option.

I feel there's a lot of resistance here because people think pulling out sand is hard or messy. It's not. Here's what you do:

Materials
• 3/4" or larger ID hose
• enough buckets to cover your regular water change
• a helping hand (you will need someone to keep the hose from flooding and to break up clogs in the hose

Method
1. Set all your buckets up in front of the tank.
2. Start siphon and shove hose into the sand. Pick up as much as you can.
3. When all your buckets are full, stop. You don't need to get all of the sand in one go. Spread it over several water changes if you have to.

That's it. Using a hose, you won't cloud up and crash your tank. Having a helping hand will keep you from putting your foot through your sump.

It's certainly easy to remove. I did my entire 93 thru a hose as part of my water change. Tank was still crystal clear when I was done. I baste my sand regularly with 50 micron socks in overnight as a way to live with the crap trap that is a sandbed.

Well, sorry to disagree with you, Albert. But I have had gobies, and not had gobies. When I had a goby (Orange Spot Sleeper), never (and I mean never, ever) had algae on my sand, and it always looked pristine white. When I didn't have a goby, in a short time, the sand would lose its pristine color (more brown at first) and eventually algae (the aggressive green stuff would start in). I could keep it clean with vacuuming, but that was extra work that just wasn't required with a goby.

Of course, a Goby is not majic, and does not get rid of your P04 and N03. You need GFO and biopellets for that (or some other equivalent regime). But even with zero P04 and zero N03, and no goby, my sand would still look like crap, unless I vacuumed it.

Nothing against BB tanks as such, but for those who prefer sand, there are ways to keep it clean and pristine looking, without a lot of work, ie get the goby.

And conversely to what you said, Albert, BB does not magically solve your other water issues either. You still need a good skimmer, good flow, and a regime to get rid of your phosphates and nitrates.

I'm... not advocating BB. Thomas said that. The argument was to remove sh1tty sand from your tank when you have problems.

Well, that can help, for sure, and same goes for old live rock. But you'll still have problems unless you get your water right, starting with proper test kits.

And I know there is more than one way to get it right, so not arguing that removing sand or going BB is wrong. But it is not the only way, that's for sure. And easy and quick is not always the best solution in the long run.

Comes in waves. I'm on an upswing right now. Just enjoying the ride. So, you guys still talking about this, huh?
Thought the concept was fairly simple and straight forward. I'm on your side if this gets to the bike rack after school!

No this isn't the issue. If people HONESTLY thought their sandbed was a potential issue there probably wouldn't be much resistance to removing it.

It's ignorance and or arrogance.

Poster 1:
Removing a sandbed can be beneficial to people who are experiance problems possibly associated with such.

Poster 2: blah blah blah. I have a sandbed and I don't have any issues. This is a
Stupid thread. Clearly this guy hates sand and the way I do things.

Poster 1: but it can help people.

Poster 3: no way man. Bb is ugly. Sand is where it's at.

Poster 4: woe, slow down. We need to make sure people understand that this is not the only way. And by doing so I will show people my way.

Poster 1: but I didn't say it was. I just said it could help people.

Poster 5: no it's not the sandbed. It's because the user of such sandbed sucks at this hobby and is not as awesome as I am. Look, look. It got it figured out.

Poster 6: I might be having issues with my sandbed. Should I remove my sand?

Poster 7: well I guess maybe there is a possibility it could help. But imo you should go to the store, buy more equipment. Because your obviously lacking. Get yourself these fish, and those inverts. Well set you up with some proper dosing, get ya hooked up with all the medias and pellets, and get a nice little macro growing to out compete with all that algae on the sand. Far better plan in my opinion.

Poster 6: oh thanks. You really helped me allot. Sucks this hobby is so expensive and challenging but I guess that's just how it is...

I fully admit, I'm ignorant and arrogant.

Poster 8: So, you guys still talking about this, huh?

People have sand trouble because they run LED. Period. (that'll trick 'em)

Geesh I thought this was now common practise but everyone knows that if you acid bath your sand once a month , use dry rock and add a skimmer cup of sludge you won't have these issues.

Hth

Forgetting something??? That's right, MB7. You're welcome.

So what's the deal with sand.? Should I or shouldn't I

Use Instant Ocean for best results.

Until we know for sure only half remove it :)

I knew it , see threads like this are useful tools and a wealth of knowledge :)

I would have replied sooner but I was trolling on Rc lol

Note to self. Leave for the coast in the morning to get some instant ocean sand....I guess. But only take half of what I need. Now there is some think'in ahead since I will have to remove half right away anyways.

Maybe they are having sand issues cause they peed in the tank to start the cycle..