Thats great as I said before if thats the way you want to go then go for it, but at least add the balancing factor of part C, then you do not have two risks, just one.

But i still do not see the reason of using off the self salts and there are risks involved in them, I have seen many tanks with sudden algal blooms after a year or less, once the person stopped using the salt the issue slowly went away. As a hobbyist you have absolute no control what these salts have in them, you are buying salts not designed for your tank, food grade is great for food, but corals are a little more sensitive, I am not talking about poisons just wrong elements, too much bromide is one possible scenario.

So in "my" view I would rather spend that little extra and get salts from a known pure source where they have been tested and assured for you for the intended use. I also prefer to feed my expensive corals something that I cna trust in as replacing that coral will far outweigh the cost of using a proper salt mix.

But this is where the arguments start so i will end by saying, if you are happy using your DIY salts, go for it, just please at least see the importance of adding Part C.

Yep you are right it is adding all the traces in one powder, but its that one powder with all the traces that enables the ionic balance, it is important to be clear on that point.

I am not so sure about using another salt and copying the recipe, there is a chance you will get a different strength mix as not all salts are made up of equal components, so make sure you at the very least have the correct saturation points as marked, which for the average bobbyist could be difficult to achieve. Which brings me back to the point of why bother when the kit is readily available for you in the first place.

Is there that much need to try and find a way round a product just because it is a commercially supplied product for you, for your ease of use? After you have gone to all these efforts, in effect to beat what many feel as beating the system, or doing it cheaper hoping to get the same results, I am quite sure the saving based on time and effort would be minimal, and in some cases more expensive.

But that's consumer choice, do what you feel fits best with you. Just - yep - PART C at the very least.

And here is your answer in probably more detail than you could ever wish for ;) Hans-Werner does not hold back ;)

• Sodium chloride has a molar weight of 58.44 g/mol.
• In 2 l of R/O water a max. of 2 mol sodium bicarbonate can be dissolved. After addition of 2 mol sodium bicarbonate and 1 mol calcium chloride 2 mol sodium chloride remain in the aquarium. 2 mol sodium chloride can be balanced with exactly 50 g of sodium chloride free sea salt.
• Formula:
 CaCl2 x 2 H2O + 2 NaHCO3 
CaCO3 + 2 NaCl + CO2 + 3 H2O
• Insert weights:
 147 g CaCl2 x 2 H2O + 168 g NaHCO3  100 g CaCO3 + 117 g NaCl + 44 g CO2 + 54 g H2O
 117 g NaCl + 50 g NaCl free sea salt  167 g complete sea salt

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...ps3517c0e1.jpg

• Adjust tank water to 7° KH and 420 ppm calcium.
• Check alkalinity after two days. Calculate how much alkalinity solution is needed. Add same volume of all three solutions.
• Continue with daily additions of half the volume.
• Adjust added volumes to keep 7° KH alkalinity.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...ps87c91cd8.jpg

+1

That's what does it for me. Situations like the bromide issue in Dow Flake from a number of years ago is what concerns me.

You may be able to find less expensive sources of additives, but you have to be a lot more diligent as to keeping up on their composition....IF that information is even available to the public in a timely manner.

Just mixed the part A , And part B solutions .

Had one issue .
With the part B.
I added 18 scoops to my jug added the water and began shaking. Well no matter what it would not all disolve. So I have that solution now that i dont know what to do with.

So take 2.
This time I weighed each scoop. It only took 15 scoops to reach the 318 grams. This would explain why the first solution would not totally disolve.


anyone else weigh each scoop ? would be nice to know .

really wish i had weighed the other parts first before i hooked up to my doser

On the box it tells you either scoop or total weight, it makes a lot more sense to use the total weight than a scoop.

As per the instructions
Part A = 380 grams to 5L of RO
Part B = 420g to 5L of RO
Part C = 120g to 5L of RO

scoops are just a guide for those that dont have scales handy, it will never be as accurate as measured weight.

Glad I read this post before I go ahead and purchase a Calcium reactor, I have a 900G setup, what should I be expecting for a start up?

Hi

do you mean price or level of ease in setting up?

level of ease :)

very easy, for starters you have full control over every element going into your system where as a calcium reactor you have not a lot of control and will require a kalk stirrer also. Plus the co2 bottles.

With the balling system you need 3 x fluid chambers and the GHL doser and thats it.

start by manually adjusting your parameters over 3 days then set your daily dosing to maintain this, check for the first week every other day then after that weekly.

Thanks A-D, you sum it up pretty simple, I do agree with the calcium reator is alot more complex as I dont have much time doing that, this should provide me a better option, I will get in touch with my LFS on this setup.

No problem just ask them to contact me on Thursday ;)

Any other questions, feel free to hit me with them ;)

Is there a formula to figure out how much to start off to maintains levels or is it kinda hit and miss as every tanks usage will be different.

every tank is different but the kit comes with a guide to start you off.

Happy New Year! :mrgreen:

The only other problem I see is you stated I need a ghl doser... Don't have one of those :wink::wink:

Thanks again for all the help i am sure this isn't the last ill hear from me on this :mrgreen:

I believe Harvey at Marine Aquaria has a used DHL in good condition for sale.

I picked up the vertex libra from Harvey

True story, 3rd coast corals in the usa had all their buyers after 6 months switching over to GHL dosers due to reliability issues.

Hope yours is ok though.

switching from Vertex to GHL?

Yep exactly that. I can send the email to you if you wish, and you can contact 3rd coast directly what the issue was.

crap, I know I should have trust the Germans! but I must admit the Vertex looks fancy. :)

Dont shoot the horse unless its limping, I am sure you will be fine.

I saw them at interzoo, huge boxes and pricey in my opinion, but consumer choice wins as with everything. The GHL is tried tested and ultra reliable, we cant keep them in stock for that reason and at $399 its a no brainer when a cheapy chinese is only about $90 less.

2 year warranty with the GHL also and all spares available and self service.

I was looking into getting a Vertex lol, the design look really had me going though. :)

GHL Reviews

Mr Saltwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqvH18511uc

owner review
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKW2IYYmZos

I had two of GHL, must admit they never gave me any issues!

I am gonna agree I shoulda bought a ghl but I am a succer for fancy things anyhow ill stop derailing the thread.

Should pick up salts next week and then well know how it all works, geting excited to not have to deal with my ca reactor and its leaks

The Vertex dosers have been fine since their firmware update a while back. And they have a two year warranty as well :) Also, they are the easiest doser to program I have ever used.

:mrgreen: So you argue about spending on decent salts but buy an expensive doser to dose those cheap salts to run your tank? :mrgreen:

I argue about whether a "brand" name salt is better or necessary vs. food grade etc. Using "lab grade" salts is, in my opinion, a marketing exercise as most super high purity lab grade chemicals are intended for very precise uses such as analytical chemistry work where a 0.05% deviation in purity can throw your results off. We don't need that level of precision or purity for our uses. If I would be comfortable putting it on or in my own body, I'm comfortable putting it in my tank. I'm not saying the TM salts are bad, just that for some people, other more affordable options also exist and can work just as well. Saving money on salts or other items where I can let's me apply that to the equipment budget for a quality doser or skimmer etc.

The saving once you have gone to all that effort will be very little if any and the salt is the lifeblood to your corals, for me not a risk to take.

Yes of course branded salts are a marketing product, just as the salts you buy are also. The name does not put the price up, whats in it and whats gone into it to make it balanced for you does. ;)

Well, I don't have time to run a spreadsheet and financial analysis right now but from what I've seen of many (not all, but many) additives and supplements, the costs add up to a great deal over time and the savings can likewise add up over time.

As for the whole issue of balanced dosing, I'm not disputing the principal but I will also suggest that I don't think it's even possible to completely "balance" your dosing as each system will be different depending on size, livestock, livestock types and various rates of consumption of a wide range of different elements by different types of corals or algae or clams etc.

Just my thoughts on it all. Plenty of people over the years seem to get by perfectly well and have stunning reef tanks with nothing more than regular water changes and perhaps regular two or three part dosing or running a calcium reactor etc.

All comes down to if you want to do it right as nature intends or try and bend the rules to suit a budget. If you want to do it "naturally" right then this system offers that for you.

The battle of a reefer is chemistry if we can help simplify this and take away the risk factors then I believe the product is worth it.

I guess this is where I have a bit of a problem when you make the implication that this is the "right" way and other ways are not "right". As I've been trying to say, there are many ways to dose and maintain tank chemistry and claiming that one is right and the others aren't is a bit bold IMO. Plenty of people have stunning tanks using other methods or products as well. The TM ones may be good but so can others too. That's my point.

And I think that tanks may vary in their requirements for different trace elements depending on their livestock. For example, someone growing some ornamental macro algae or a fuge full of macro algae may need to dose more iron or iodine than someone not. And even that is questionable. Here's a great write up by Randy Holmes-Farley on trace element dosing:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/

Even the 3 part system that is talked about on reefkeeping now advocates the use of NACL free salt, interesting the recent change. However the NACL free you can get will not have all the trace elements found in your sea salt mix.

This is not about adding extra elements as pointed out above its about making a balance and to do that you have to replicate everything that is in your sea salt mix minus the sodium chloride.

why minus the sodium chloride?...... because you bi product of your 2 part dosing is sodium chloride. its already there free swimming looking for the NACL to bind to, the added benefit of the Tropic marin system is that the NACL also comes with the same amount of trace elements in your salt mix and in doing so constantly re vitalizes your tank with them.

The whole point of the system is about balance, not about trace elements that are added as an '"addition" to your system.

Your are re balancing the basics, not the complexes.

I think I made it clear that I understand the proposition of the "balanced" dosing that Dr. Balling proposes. That's not the question. I simply wonder if there's really a need to do so beyond simple water changes and possibly dosing for CA, Alk and Mg if need be. Ca and Alk are the two big ones that can potentially cause problems. The rest not so much unless something is way out of whack.

Has Dr. Balling done any analysis in reef tanks to measure the consumption rates of all the other minor and trace elements to determine what dosing is required of them? Can he/you provide that data or a link to it?

The need as said in many thread previous is because a water change ONLY changes the % of imbalance in the water change, so for example as i said before if you do a 10% water change you are only addressing 10% of the imbalance same as you only remove 10% bad nutrients.

the only way to achieve the same with a water change is by 100% change

You are assuming that the trace and minor elements are being consumed at a rate higher than 10% (very simplified number for what is a complicated system). That's why I would like to see some data on the consumption rates of all these various elements that apparently need to be dosed to replenish them beyond what a water change might accomplish. Randy Holmes-Farley seems to indicate that many are used up very slowly and that our salt mixes contain more than natural sea water in any case. I just don't have time to check all his references right now. I imagine Dr. Balling would have some data on the consumption rates of these various elements in a "typical" reef system and some data on how regular water changes don't replenish them sufficiently thus supporting the use of his supplements. Perhaps you could ask for that or some references?

The chemistry beyond the use of the major elements such as Ca and carbonate is complex and I suspect varies greatly from system to system depending on types of corals and inverts etc. I'm not convinced that this one size fits all solution is best for everyone, let alone even necessary given the low rate of use of uptake of the trace elements and the ability to replenish via water changes.

Give tropic marin a call ask to speak to Lou he is expecting your call, he will explain everything to you person to person directly.

You should have joined the seminar.

I am currently using this , on week 2 now.
will number the questions i would like addressed
thanks

(1.)I am told that part C is dosed at the same rate as part B. correct ?

if so

The box shows that part C contains 3350mg/l MG , 980mg/l K it does not list any other trace elements.
(2.)This is supposed to be everything from a TM salt bucket less the salt , ca , alk
correct ?

Either way . i am currently dosing 84ml a day of part B . Now if to be balanced i need to be adding 84ml of C then i think i have an issue .
My mag consumption has been very low for the last 5 months . so I have chosen to dose on 20 ml a day of part C. And after 2 weeks my Mg is still 1500.

(3.)SO , I am not Balanced ??
I do 10 percent changes each week . ANd the bucket of IO i am currently using seems to have Mg in the upper 1450's ( tested with red sea, and salifert)

(4.)So how can I add an equal dose of part C to be BALANCED if my Mg is already high?

(5.)Then there is the Question of the 980 mg/l of K in part C . This is pottasium right ?
(6.)I have never tested for potassium . Should i be concerned of an overdose?

thanks for the help
maybe these levels will be driven high too . ?

1) Yes providing you start with a balanced system i.e all parameters in line with their guidelines which is written on the box. You may find you need to slightly vary away from this depending on your own tanks needs. Its a guideline

2) yes correct all 3 parts A B and C make up NSW minus the sodium Chloride.

3) refer to point #1 you need to balance your system first

4) This also comes down to point #1

You balance your system first by manual dosing once balanced you can work out your daily consumption.