Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board - abcha0s' 300G Ultimate Reef

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- - abcha0s' 300G Ultimate Reef (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=66389)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delphinus (Post 588777)

How much turnover do you have in your sump compared to tank volume? I've always heard the general rule of thumb that you need around 5 to 7 times volume turnover through the sump to keep heaters down there. I'm sure you have this or knew it already but it bears asking.

What's the ambient temperature in your house? All things being equal your tank should equalize to that after some time and you would only need to heat your tank the incremental difference. Ie., house at 21c the heaters need only raise it 5c to get to 26c (sorry I don't think in terms of F for temperature. The very first dive I ever did was at the Great Barrier Reef, the water temp there was 26c, and that's what stuck in my head mentally ever since). If you run your house at say a chillier 18c the heaters need only bump it 8c to get to 26c. That's not a lot.

So I'm thinking that either the heaters aren't outputting what you think, or there is loss of heat to somewhere (the floor? is the sump sitting directly on concrete or is there foam under the glass?)

If all 4 heaters were on that should be the full 1200w which seems ample to me. By contrast, my 280g, I use one 1000W titanium heater on a Ranco controller, the RO/DI was a frigid 8c filling up, and the heater brought it to 26c within 24 hours (not sure exactly how many hours it took, I just checked the next day and it was 26c). It's been steady ever since. So I think your 1200W should be doing the trick, there is something more going on here that we haven't put our finger on methinks.

Thanks for the feedback Tony

I have almost exactly 4X turnover through the sump (300G total water volume - 1200Gph measured return). I had never heard the 5-7X guideline before, but it is interesting though. I'm sure it has to do with the rate of mixing and the temperature variance between the display and the sump. More turnover would reduce this variance, but heating the water in the sump to a higher temp should also counter this effect.

Ambient house temp is ~20C. 78F converts to 25.6C, so our targets are similar enough. The heaters have to provide ~6C of additional heat.

We have our furnace thermostat set to lower the temp during the day while we are at work and at night while we are sleeping. I think I will have to consider the effectiveness of this strategy.

I'm interested in the titanium heaters. I've read that they are more efficient watt for watt than traditional glass heaters. By the sounds of it, they may be considerably more efficient. I'm not getting anywhere near that much heating power from my heaters. They aren't exactly expensive either, so I will probably cut my losses and go in that direction.

As you suggested, it's likely a combination of factors. I'm still working out the bugs but I'm getting really close to adding the first fish!

Quote:

Originally Posted by hillegom (Post 588788)

I just read this entire thread. Great build and well thought out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by globaldesigns (Post 588804)

Very impressive build and I must say one of the best organized build threads out there.

It is like you write manuals/books for a living, well done.

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the encouragement. It keeps me motivated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abcha0s (Post 588825)

Hey Phi Delt

I haven't done the bucket test, but your right to an extent. One of the things that seems to be happening is that the heaters are turning on and off. I think this is in part due to their close proximity to each other. I have their thermostat set at 81F (or close) and the Apex set at 78F, but even at 81F they are cycling. I think the radiant heat from the neighboring heaters is causing this. I thought that the water turbulence would be sufficient in the small sump chamber to avoid this, but perhaps not. I will move them further apart or set their thermostats higher.

The Apex Energy Bar 8 (EB8) is rated at:

8 independently controllable 120V Outlets (Max 5 Amps, total current must be less than 15 Amps)

300W/110V = 2.72Amps - So I'm safe.

For a 500W Heater - 500W/110V = 4.55Amps - Getting close to the upper limit.

For a 1000W Heater - 1000W/110V = 9 Amps - I would need the EB4

couple tests to see if what you are thinking is happening.

Get a normal mercury thermometer and test the water by your heat probes current placement (ie. verify the probe is accurate)

measure the temp in the hot spots you think you may have in your tank (ie. between the thermometers.

This equation will help you determine how many watts of heat you need for your system for what length of time.

equation has the following variables included

specific gravity of sea water is 1025 kg/m3
your total system volume is 300 gallons
specific gravity of sea water is 3850 J/Kg*C

Watts = 4481361.50 x (change in TEMP[Celsius]/change in TIME[seconds])

obviously you need to sub in two variables to figure out the third.

so here are some 'measurements'

given Tony's example and your data if you wanted to raise the temp of you water 6 degrees C in 24 hours you would only 311 watts from your heaters.
if you used all 1200 watts of heaters to raise your system volume 6 degrees it would only take 5.802 hours.

figuring out how much heat is needed to maintain a temp would require heat loss knowledge :confused: Maybe when you get your system to ideal temp turn off the heaters and see how long it takes for the temp to drop exactly 1 degree Celsius (possibly use the data logger in the APEX?)

So skimmed through to update myself again and things are coming along very nicely Brad !Great work.

Thanks Everyone!

I think my main problem with heat comes down to faulty heaters. In addition, I think there may be some efficiency to be found by switching to titanium heaters.

Two of the heaters are having issues with their thermostats (they are all brand new). I have replaced one for now and will replace all of them sometime soon.

I did take temperature readings throughout the tank to look for hot spots. I anticipated finding them, but in reality the water temperature is fairly constant throughout the system. When the heaters are on, the temperature in the return chamber of the sump can rise about .4F, but overall that seems inconsequential and it stabilizes within seconds of turning the heaters off.

I'll likely pick up 3x 500W titanium heaters the first chance I get.

I do find it somewhat ironic that I expected to save energy by going with LED lighting. It looks like the cost savings in PAR per watt, will be offset by the cost of heating the tank. It will probably still be a little cheaper, but not by much.

Anyways, it was an interesting topic to research. I'd never really given much thought to it in the past.

- Brad

Didn't have time to read your whole build thread but titanium heaters are definitely the way to go! After a malfunction with a stealth heater that caught on fire, and hearing stories of glass heaters breaking, for the same price titanium heaters are 10 times more reliable, also they need a controller to run them which is an extra fail safe. I currently run mine through the chiller so its either heat, nothing or cool as oppose to before when it would heat and cool at the same time. And IMO it is energy efficient as I hardly ever see it on now that my chiller runs it and the temp swings 1 degree when the lights are on from 78f to 79! Get it you won't be disappointed!

I've been busy trying to work through some of the bugs in my system. I've made some progress and had some setbacks.

One of my heaters exploded this morning. I hadn't intended to ever use this heater as I knew the risk of explosion was there, but I figured the risk was small and there's no livestock in my tank yet.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...231#post590231

Ironically, I had already ordered titanium heaters from BRS to replace the Marineland heaters that I am using now. I really should have done a little more research and just bought the right ones first.

My tank went through a massive bacteria bloom from the biopellets. I thought it would be a good idea to run these while the tank cycled, but in hind sight I think this was a mistake.

One interesting thing is that the initial bloom occurred with the tank at around 20C. After heating the tank to 26C, I went through another massive bacteria bloom. In total, I've gone through about 3 inches of the pellets.

Oh the mistakes. One day, I'll know these things.

I bought a 200G loaf tank for saltwater storage. I'm pretty happy with this as it will allow me to do big water changes if needed (like now). It will also be the primary storage for my continuous water change system. I should only have to top it up once a month and could let it run for up to 6 weeks if need be.

I have received my SpectraPure LiterMeter III pumps for the water change project. These were the best peristaltic pumps that I could afford and that are available to hobbyists.

I moved one of my two Tunze Ozmolators from my 90G to my new tank only to discover that the pump had seized. I can't say for sure when it failed but I remember testing it within the past couple of weeks. I've replaced the pump and set it up on the new tank, but it does show the need for redundancy.

I have an old 110W light over the tank now just so that I have something to look at. I should have some real lights within the next couple of weeks.

All of the parameters seem to be stable.

What are the dimensions of your load tank? Where did you get it?

The place I've been looking at has a really ltd selection of loaf tanks so I'm leaning towards a cylinder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lastlight (Post 590242)

What are the dimensions of your load tank? Where did you get it?

The place I've been looking at has a really ltd selection of loaf tanks so I'm leaning towards a cylinder.

Hi Brett

The dimensions are 58"Lx29"Wx37"H. It was made by paddleplastics - www.paddleplastics.com

I picked it up in Crossfield from Promould: 403-946-9920

I looked at a similar tank from Calgary Plastics (aka Richards Packaging). They didn't have any in stock and wanted over $100 to have it brought in. They quoted something like $550. I paid $400 from Promould.

The tank comes with a mainway and a bulkhead that was installed at the time of purchase. I had them put the mainway on, but put the bulkheads on myself. I installed the bulkheads on the bottom of the tank.

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/loaftank/loaftank1.jpg

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/loaftank/loaftank3.jpg

Some pictures of the tank.

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/tank_...eb18_11-03.jpg

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/tank_...eb18_11-01.jpg

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/tank_...eb18_11-05.jpg

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/tank_...eb18_11-06.jpg

Note: I hate dry rock; although it does have it's advantages (cost, no pests, easy to work with). The egg crate basket has Cheato in it. I'm hoping to get some micro life going on in the display (this is the first of many things that I will try).. I've also ordered some detritivores and established live sand online.

If anyone can spare a small piece of established live rock from a pest free tank, I would be very happy to pay top dollar for it. Please let me know...

The light is temporary. It's from an old tank and has been in storage for years. I'm glad I kept it.