Dosing - Concentrating your Suppliments

[michika]

I'm curious, and I'm relatively new to dosing, so I wanted to pick the collective Canreef brain if I can please.

Do any of you concentrate your suppliments, e.g. mix them stronger then the recommended instructions? If so, why, how, and what products are you using?

Here is my issue in a nut shell I have a lot of water volume, it takes a lot of product and RO/DI water to move the proverbial needle on things like Mg. and Alkalinity.

E.g. It takes me 4.5g of MG suppliments + RO/DI to move my tank by 50ppm. Its a lot of freshwater to be adding and the volume just keeps ticking up as my clams grow and the SPS I have is starting to really uptake them elements in my water.

I want to be able to safely dose my tank stronger additives, but am looking for some guidance and to hear the experience of others'.

[Skimmerking]

Catherine why not just use a cal RX for now. I see your point in adding all this extra water. But if you are evaporating then this would be good. What about using KALK for now to you evaporation. Are you at the limit already for Kalk and evaporation.

[michika]

Catherine why not just use a cal RX for now. I see your point in adding all this extra water. But if you are evaporating then this would be good. What about using KALK for now to you evaporation. Are you at the limit already for Kalk and evaporation.

Because the biggest culprit is Mg. :mrgreen:

I'm not doing reactors because I can't find media (e.g. ARM) consistently and in a reliable supply. I do love the idea of a kalk reactor again, but I'd have to build one because I can't find anyone who sells them large enough or would custom make me one for a reasonable price.

The two part dosing for dKH and Ca is pretty minor. I only dose 1g of dKH (Soda Ash) per day. Ca is more like 1g over 4-5 days. Mg though its 4g/day since last week Thursday. The Mg consumption in my tank is ridiculous and it seems to be ramping up again.

[Skimmerking]

Talk to Dez he had a huge problem when he started out his 150 gal. I know its not the same but it was a huge demand like 5 gal worth of MG he had to use to get it up. For some reason it wsa super low. But why not have you mag as your top off if you are depleting it that fast. I have doubled up my MAg before for a double dose and dosed it that way and it worked.

[TimT]

Hi Catherine,

Hope this helps.

I used to use a Ca reactor but found it was too time consuming twiddling with it all the time so I switched to Balling Lite method.

I do my dosing as follows:
Mix the Bicarb, CaCl and Mg/CL+MgSO4 at near saturation levels in their own 5 gallon buckets. ie 1260grams Sodium Bicarb, Aluminum Free into 15L of RO water. This lasts on average 10 days. So 126 grams of bicarb per day.

I use a Profi doser.

I test my parameters every 3 days with Lamotte and Salifert test kits.


I have found that Magnesium is a weird bird. Sometimes the demand can go through the roof and stay that way for a month or more. Other times there is NO demand at all for months on end. I consistently use Reef Crystals or Instant Ocean salt mix and use a full 160 gallon bucket or 3 x 50 gallon bags for a water change. I don't think it's the salt mix doing it but something in the system.

I sell the same chems that I use in my 800 gallon system which has been running continuously for 11 years.

Cheers,
Tim

[PFoster]

I also used to use a CARX + kalk reactor but abandoned them years ago for the Balling Lite method.
I do have a brand new deltec kalk reactor here though if you want one :)

I mix
2kg Ca into a 2.5g fish tank.
2kg Mg into a 2.5g fish tank.
1kg Ca into a 5g fish tank.
This is below the max saturation point.
I just dose straight MgCl to keep the sulfate levels lower. I stopped dosing magnesium sulphate years ago.


I have never found that dosing the Balling Lite method has any effect on lowering my salinity when mixing at this concentration.

I find that the Mg consumption on the system varies the most depending on what salt brand you use.
When I used RC, i had to dose a fair amount of Mg, and I too always found that I was having to adjust my Mg dosages as they seemed to change a fair amount.

When I used Royal Nature and DnD I didnt dose ANY mg almost at all.... ever.
It was to the point where I was convinced something was wrong, lol.

When I used TMC I had to dose some Mg.
Currently I am using the Fritz salt as its giving me great results at a budget price and I find my Mg consumption to be just a tiny bit higher than when using TMC, but this could be related to coral load currently as the diff is so small.

And I should also mention that we test every day so parameters stay VERY stable.
And again, no matter what salt i used, what the bioload was, how much we dosed, I never saw any effect on salinity.

[michika]

I wonder if its part of a "new tank" thing. I vaguely remember having low MG in past tanks, but that was low Mg, not Mg being used up by the system.

Foster, why the MgCl only and not magnesium sulphate? Is it in relation to which is more "usable" to the tank. I've seen disucssion on moving only to Magneslum Cloride as the sole source, but I am still on the fence. What benefits do you see from this change?

Just to clarify this is the first time I've done 2-part dosing and prior to this tank I've always used reactors. I'm just coming up to the end of my 5g buckets on pretty much everything.

Tim, how heavily stocked is your system? What parameter in your tank requires the most for dosing? Ca?

[TimT]

Hi Catherine,

Tim, how heavily stocked is your system? What parameter in your tank requires the most for dosing? Ca?

The system is heavily stocked with SPS( probably 600+ frags and 100+ colonies) and 300+ LPS and a monster sunset Chalice that is close to 18" across. Very few leathers.

I find that Alk is used the most and then Ca. Probably about a 60/40 ratio.

Balling lite does not use very much MgSO4. 550 grams MgCL and 80 grams MgSO4 to 10L.

Cheers,
Tim

[TimT]

Hi Catherine,

I wonder if its part of a "new tank" thing.

It could be. I have found when I add fresh coral sand or gravel the mag usage tends to rise.

Cheers,
Tim

[Skimmerking]

I also used to use a CARX + kalk reactor but abandoned them years ago for the Balling Lite method.
I do have a brand new deltec kalk reactor here though if you want one :)

I mix
2kg Ca into a 2.5g fish tank.
2kg Mg into a 2.5g fish tank.
1kg Ca into a 5g fish tank.
This is below the max saturation point.
I just dose straight MgCl to keep the sulfate levels lower. I stopped dosing magnesium sulphate years ago.


I have never found that dosing the Balling Lite method has any effect on lowering my salinity when mixing at this concentration.

I find that the Mg consumption on the system varies the most depending on what salt brand you use.
When I used RC, i had to dose a fair amount of Mg, and I too always found that I was having to adjust my Mg dosages as they seemed to change a fair amount.

When I used Royal Nature and DnD I didnt dose ANY mg almost at all.... ever.
It was to the point where I was convinced something was wrong, lol.

When I used TMC I had to dose some Mg.
Currently I am using the Fritz salt as its giving me great results at a budget price and I find my Mg consumption to be just a tiny bit higher than when using TMC, but this could be related to coral load currently as the diff is so small.

And I should also mention that we test every day so parameters stay VERY stable.
And again, no matter what salt i used, what the bioload was, how much we dosed, I never saw any effect on salinity.

Deltec kalk reactor really hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[PFoster]

I wonder if its part of a "new tank" thing. I vaguely remember having low MG in past tanks, but that was low Mg, not Mg being used up by the system.

Foster, why the MgCl only and not magnesium sulphate? Is it in relation to which is more "usable" to the tank. I've seen disucssion on moving only to Magneslum Cloride as the sole source, but I am still on the fence. What benefits do you see from this change?

Just to clarify this is the first time I've done 2-part dosing and prior to this tank I've always used reactors. I'm just coming up to the end of my 5g buckets on pretty much everything.

Tim, how heavily stocked is your system? What parameter in your tank requires the most for dosing? Ca?

I used to use both the chloride and the sulfate and Tim is right it doesnt use much. But I switch to the straight chloride a long time ago and got better growth and better colour. I did also change a few other things on the system so i really cant say at all that it was due to just this so please just to clarify i am not saying switching to chloride only gave me better growth and colour.
That being said its been several years now and I have seen no ill effect.

The main reason against using straight mag chloride is the argument that in conjunction with calcium chloride you can get a build up of chlorides over time. But your WC's take care of this, even if you are a bit lazy in doing them imo


Once you start using the Balling Lite system you wont go back to reactors,
Welcome to the dark side, wuahahahahahaha :)

Honestly though you will have way better growth and a much higher and more stable pH.

[michika]

I used to use both the chloride and the sulfate and Tim is right it doesnt use much. But I switch to the straight chloride a long time ago and got better growth and better colour. I did also change a few other things on the system so i really cant say at all that it was due to just this so please just to clarify i am not saying switching to chloride only gave me better growth and colour.
That being said its been several years now and I have seen no ill effect.

The main reason against using straight mag chloride is the argument that in conjunction with calcium chloride you can get a build up of chlorides over time. But your WC's take care of this, even if you are a bit lazy in doing them imo
Once you start using the Balling Lite system you wont go back to reactors,
Welcome to the dark side, wuahahahahahaha :)

Honestly though you will have way better growth and a much higher and more stable pH.

That is the reason I keep seeing around the web, but it seems to only be a small number of people and it looks like its only being doing Balling or Balling Lite. Thanks for writing it out so my brain could recognize it again!

Typically my tank runs with higher pH, 8.2-8.4 is common for my system. I have never had a tank that had low pH inless it was a temporary side effect of something else.

I'm going to do some additional reading up on Balling vs. 2-part dosing. Any particular resources you'd suggest?

[Myka]

Do any of you concentrate your suppliments, e.g. mix them stronger then the recommended instructions? If so, why, how, and what products are you using?

I use the Fauna Marin line for "the big three". I mix according to the "Balling Light" method which makes the concentrations saturated which are then added to my tank via economically-priced Drew's Dosers from BRS. One exception is that I don't add magnesium with a doser. I add the magnesium needed to the fresh saltwater I mix up for waterchanges. In my 90-gallon display (about 85-95 gallons net) this amounts to adding 300 mL of the FM Mg chloride and 35 mL Epsom salt to 15 gallons of saltwater made with H2Ocean salt. Doing bi-weekly waterchanges in this fashion this keeps magnesium around 1400 ppm just after waterchange and 1375 ppm before waterchange. I also add 60 mL Brigthwell Aquatics Potassion-P potassium to the mix as well to keep potassium in the 400 ppm range. This makes a very noticeable difference in blues and purples in my SPS tank.

Now, if I have to bump up the magnesium in the tank it takes A LOT of product to do so. The reason is because you're adding more chloride than magnesium ions when using magnesium chloride. In the hobby this is still our best option. If you're trying to save from adding a bunch of RO, figure out how much dry product you need to add, put that in a small jug, add a bit of RO and mix it up as much as you can, pour off the concentrate, add a bit more RO, and repeat until you get it all dissolved. This will give you the highest concentration with the lowest amount of RO. The good thing about powdered Mg chloride is that it mixes up quite concentrated (like calcium, unlike sodium bicarbonate).

You aren't using Epsom salt (Mg sulfate) to raise Mg are you? Epsom salt is difficult to mix up, and because of the sulfate, it shouldn't be used as a primary, long-term source of Mg. Reef tanks will use up some sulfate, but not as much as is contained in Epsom salt. The "official" recipe is 8.5 parts Mg chloride to 1 part Mg Sulfate. This is the recipe I use even though I don't actually visually see a difference by including the Epsom. ;)

However, if you are dosing a lot you will find that specific gravity will creep up rather than go down if you are concentrating your supplements to saturation. The reason is because you will be adding so much chloride which reads as specific gravity on your refractometer. If I don't monitor SG in my tank I will end up having to remove saltwater and replace with RO in order to lower the SG within reason. Now I adjust salinity the day before a waterchange and use proper SG with the new saltwater. My salinity will creep up one point every waterchange (2 weeks) simply because of the amount of chloride that is coming in with dosing.

On that note, I've started doing quarterly 60% waterchanges to help flush chloride ions from the system. My tank LOVES these big waterchanges, and really thrives afterwards.

Here is my issue in a nut shell I have a lot of water volume, it takes a lot of product and RO/DI water to move the proverbial needle on things like Mg. and Alkalinity.

[Myka]

FWIW, the Balling Light method mixes up to very similar concentrations as Randy's Recipe #1. I did the math awhile back so I could reference the uptake in my SPS tank. My tank uses about 1.25 mL per gallon per day each of calcium and alkalinity to try to give you a rough idea of what you might need. The only corals in the tank are SPS, but no clams.

Also, I do use the Trace 1, Trace 2, and Trace 3 elements in my dosers which is the full Balling Light method. Many people say they use the Balling Light method, but they are only using the calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium which is like Balling Light Light. :lol:

http://www.advancedreefaquatics.ca/catalog/images/fauna-marin-ultra-balling-light-trace-1-2-3_grande.jpg

[michika]

OK, makes sense and that is all in line with what I've read over the years.

Let me clairify; I have to dose stupidly huge amounds of Mg and only Mg in my tank. Is there a more efficient way of doing this? Or what is the best way to cocentrate my current suppliments. I don't really care so much about Ca and dKH because the amount I dose via doser is manageable at this point.

Why I am asking this question is because I am having to dose SO MUCH of Magneisum. Pretty much I am asking how people are getting around this issue, if they too also have a huge Mg. draw. I am not trying to raise my Mg, but keep it steady in the 1300-1400ppm range. I'd like 1400ppm but 1360ppm is about as high as I can consistently keep it.

I wanted to see what everyone else is doing and how they were doing it.


Here is my systems's current draw, however the draw on Magnesium is increasing. My magnesium use is partially tied into my clam growth.

Ca ~10ppm/day draw - 430ppm is an easy and consistent number for me
dKH - I only dose to mantain my parameter of 9
Mg. 20-30ppm/day draw but its getting closer and closer to 40ppm/day
pH is consitently between 8.17 and 8.3 Depending on lights on/off

So what I'm kind of hearing is not many other people have a Mg draw like I do and that for the most part once you've overcome the tedious product consumption happy portion of raising your levels, you're only dosing for maintenance purposes.

I used just Mg. Chloride to originally bring my levels in line back when the tank was first started. I use(d) both Mg. Chloride and Sulphide to dose from February - May. June and July have been Chloride only because its all I have left. I actually miss dosing the Sulphide because I think it had a positive impact on my clams, but 2 months of merely observational data isn't really useful.


Mindy, how much overall water volume do you have? I see you mentioned the 90g, but I'm not sure if thats just the display or total system. My current water volume is 550g and I am not done adding onto this system. When I'm done I should have 1000g total. The costs really start to creep up at this level because you have to buy everything in such large quantities. How do you find the costs on dosing a system of your size?

[Myka]

Mindy, how much overall water volume do you have? I see you mentioned the 90g, but I'm not sure if thats just the display or total system. My current water volume is 550g and I am not done adding onto this system. When I'm done I should have 1000g total. The costs really start to creep up at this level because you have to buy everything in such large quantities. How do you find the costs on dosing a system of your size?

About 85-95 gallons net (that's taking into consideration water displacement from rocks and glass, etc.). In one year I use roughly: 5 kg calcium chloride, 8 kg sodium bicarbonate, 10 kg magnesium chloride. Fauna Marin comes in 4 kg buckets of each that I've seen for sale in the $50-60 per bucket range. So I use about $400 per year dosing. You're looking at 10-11x more volume than me plus or minus your actual amount of uptake, so that's really turning into quite a cost for you.

The BRS supplements are significantly cheaper and you can buy 5-gallon pails of the supplements. That's another option for you. I find I get better color and less algae growth when I use FM compared to BRS (particularly calcium and magnesium), but that's not a controlled experiment, that's just from switching back and forth a couple times and noticing small differences. I noticed similar differences when switching back and forth between IO and H2Ocean salt too. I also notice that the FM magnesium is less likely to become a solid block than the BRS magnesium which always got wet and rock-like on me.

FWIW, it takes A LOT of magnesium chloride to RAISE magnesium. It's not so bad once you've figured out how much you need to dose. Maybe you need to add a bunch to your waterchanges PLUS dose it on a doser. You mention calcium and alkalinity on a doser, are you manually dosing the magnesium? How much are you actually using?

Since I add 335 mL total Mg mix to my tank every 2 weeks, using the Reef Chemistry Calculator (http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chem_calc3.html) I can figure out my tank is using "pretty much exactly" 100 ppm every 2 weeks or 50 ppm per week. Since you are using about let's say 30 ppm per day you're looking at about 3.6 kg of product PER WEEK for 550 gallons of volume. That's huge. I am guessing however, that this is a spurt in Mg uptake as others have already suggested.

Mess around with the Reef Chemistry Calculator both going forward and also reverse calculating to figure out how much you need to dose and see if you really are out of line or not. This calculator is really handy for figuring things like that out. FYI, the FM and the BRS Mg chloride are both "hexahydrate" aka MagFlake.

Here's a good article that explains where the Magnesiu is going. Keep in mind Randy Holmes-Farley wrote it in 2003. Aquarium Chemistry: Magnesium in Reef Aquaria (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/10/chemistry)

[Myka]

FYI, Mg chloride from BRS is $76.99 if you're a preferred customer (or if you buy 3). So 3 of these plus shipping to my address is about $350 taxes in. I think the 5-gallon pails are 30 lbs (13.6 kg) so this 90 lbs (40 kg) would last you 10 weeks at your current uptake which comes in at around $1800 per year. I'm not sure you could find it any cheaper. Eventually with growth, you will be looking at doubling that amout if you're doubling your volume to 1000 gallons. :eek: I hope you're a heck of a lot richer than me. :)

FM Magnesium chloride when buying 4kg pails would be like $2500 per year not considering any shipping charges. I'm not sure if FM offers larger sizes as custom orders or not. The trouble is that these chems are heavy and cost a fortune to ship.