Tank size/Fish compatibility

[asylumdown]

I'm in the early stages of planning a new tank, and I wanted to see what you guys thought of these fish in the dimensions I'm planning-

Tank will be 36x36x22, so 123 total gallons (though I'll likely have 2 inches of sand).

I don't want many fish, but the two that I really hope can live in a tank this size are a powder blue tang and a copper band butterfly.

what does everyone think about those fish in a tank that size? I know people normally say 6 foot minimum for a tang like that, but I have zero experience with cubes, so I'm not sure if that gives you more options in terms of fish.

Any thoughts?

[FishyFishy!]

36X36 is plenty of swimming room for some tangs. Gives them lots of 'circular' swimming room.

Tang Police shouldn't harp on you too bad LOL

[asylumdown]

sweet, I'm also hoping to keep at least one expensive wrasse and my main concern is them jumping. In my early days I was given veeeeery bad advice at an LFS and told that a sohal tang would be perfectly happy in 90 gallon (this is before I knew anything), and it sort of went crazy. It made every fish in the tank jump at one point or another. I don't want a repeat experience from a cramped in PBT

[The Codfather]

Access on three sides?
36" may be too deep if you don't have access to the sides.
Why not 48"x48"??
Or 48"x36"? Think this would be a nicer size.
Just my 2cents

[Reef Pilot]

Tang Police shouldn't harp on you too bad LOL
But the Copperband police might...:twised:

[asylumdown]

hehe, this tank is supposed to be smaller than my current tank! I'm going with 36x36 as a starting point because we haven't bought the house this will be going in yet and 3 foot square will fit in more spaces than 4 foot square will. If I can get a 48x48 tank when the time comes... hells yes! Also, the plan is to have access on 3 sides.

[asylumdown]

But the Copperband police might...:twised:

You think that's too small for a copper band? I thought they could live in way smaller tanks? Or just that copper bands are testy to begin with? I've had amazeballs success with copperbands so far, you should see how fat my current one is.

[gobytron]

copperbanded butterflies don;t need room so much as an established system to provide them with food.

95% of them will starve to death eventually.

[asylumdown]

If you saw my copperband, you'd know that wasn't a risk for him. The one I lost in a ich treatment/QT accident was the same. My experience has been that they're hard to get to eat, but once you've got them trained on frozen foods (which definitely requires some TLC, preferabbly in a separate, low competition qt system) they're as robust as any other fish.

I do agree they'll do better in a mature system (everything does), but once you get them eating you can easily provide their entire caloric requirements with frozen foods.

Mine eats two different kinds of enriched brine, two different brands of mysis, pacifica plankton, and most of a frozen clam or mussel every other day or so. He's as thick as a tang.

I will definitely agree that getting them to that point can be a challenge though.

[Marlin65]

I would say you are good to go on both. I have close to the same size tank and mine are fine. plenty of room for them to swim around.

[Reef Pilot]

You think that's too small for a copper band? I thought they could live in way smaller tanks? Or just that copper bands are testy to begin with? I've had amazeballs success with copperbands so far, you should see how fat my current one is.
No problem with me. I've had good success with Copperbands, too. As long as you get them to eat well, they are fine. I even had mine eating dry food (freeze dried mysis and zooplankton). And that tank size is fine, too.

But there are others here that do not agree, as you will see...

[reefwars]

ummm you havent seen my tank have ya lol :P

go for an island style aquascape or something that allows the fish to swim a full circle without hitting a wall and i think youll be just fine:)

[FishyFishy!]

Tank size with a copperband really has nothing to due with their success. Getting them to eat is the success! lol.

ummm you havent seen my tank have ya lol :P

go for an island style aquascape or something that allows the fish to swim a full circle without hitting a wall and i think youll be just fine:)

WORD. If you have 4 X 3ft walls in a criclular pattern for them to swim in, they'll be happy as a pig in $hite

[gobytron]

If you saw my copperband, you'd know that wasn't a risk for him. The one I lost in a ich treatment/QT accident was the same. My experience has been that they're hard to get to eat, but once you've got them trained on frozen foods (which definitely requires some TLC, preferabbly in a separate, low competition qt system) they're as robust as any other fish.

I do agree they'll do better in a mature system (everything does), but once you get them eating you can easily provide their entire caloric requirements with frozen foods.

Mine eats two different kinds of enriched brine, two different brands of mysis, pacifica plankton, and most of a frozen clam or mussel every other day or so. He's as thick as a tang.

I will definitely agree that getting them to that point can be a challenge though.

In my reading, it has been pointed out that cpb's don;t eat mysis in the wild.
They are omnivorous but their diet consists mostly of micro flora (and some fauna) so even when they are eating frozen, they're basically living on mcdonalds.

Thats why so many reputed to be eating frozen foods still die from malnutrition.

[George]

Hate to be a devil advocate, but what is the minimum tank size length wise for a powder blue tang? is it 3'x3' , 2'x2' or 1'x1' if someone have nothing in the tank but water and the fish? Couldn't the fish swim around in a circle in a 1'x1' tank and not hitting the wall. :twised:

[daniella3d]

It's fine for a copperband, the problem is the copperband itself. Many die because they don't eat or won't eat enough. I had my copperband in a 75 allons for 2 years and he was fat as a little pig. He ate live white worms as his main diet for all that time. I sold him because he was starting to nip at my clams and corals, so this is a risk. He was fine for 2 years.

Why do you want a copperband? hope you know they are very finiky eaters and you might have to give it some live food and messy food like fresh live mussels. They often have problem feeding because they are gentle fish and other more aggressive fish will get to all the food before the copperband even have a bite. They are way best kept in a tank with no aggressive fish at all. Mine was with one niger trigger that was always hiding, and just a few small fish. I was feeding him twice a day with a pipette so that he would eat. They can be very time consuming and you must be prepare for this.

You think that's too small for a copper band? I thought they could live in way smaller tanks? Or just that copper bands are testy to begin with? I've had amazeballs success with copperbands so far, you should see how fat my current one is.

[reefwars]

It's fine for a copperband, the problem is the copperband itself. Many die because they don't eat or won't eat enough. I had my copperband in a 75 allons for 2 years and he was fat as a little pig. He ate live white worms as his main diet for all that time. I sold him because he was starting to nip at my clams and corals, so this is a risk. He was fine for 2 years.

Why do you want a copperband? hope you know they are very finiky eaters and you might have to give it some live food and messy food like fresh live mussels. They often have problem feeding because they are gentle fish and other more aggressive fish will get to all the food before the copperband even have a bite. They are way best kept in a tank with no aggressive fish at all. Mine was with one niger trigger that was always hiding, and just a few small fish. I was feeding him twice a day with a pipette so that he would eat. They can be very time consuming and you must be prepare for this.



if you read his thread youd prob see hes had a copperband for a while now he just wants to know if the tank size is good or not;)

[reefwars]

Hate to be a devil advocate, but what is the minimum tank size length wise for a powder blue tang? is it 3'x3' , 2'x2' or 1'x1' if someone have nothing in the tank but water and the fish? Couldn't the fish swim around in a circle in a 1'x1' tank and not hitting the wall. :twised:

at what point does 1ft , 2ft or 10ft make a difference to a fish that swims a sq kilometer a day?

[George]

Hate to be a devil advocate, but what is the minimum tank size length wise for a powder blue tang? is it 3'x3' , 2'x2' or 1'x1' if someone have nothing in the tank but water and the fish? Couldn't the fish swim around in a circle in a 1'x1' tank and not hitting the wall. :twised:

at what point does 1ft , 2ft or 10ft make a difference to a fish that swims a sq kilometer a day?

interesting...I agree that 1ft sq, 2ft sq or 10 ft sq doesn't make a difference to a fish that swims kilometer sq. But somehow my gut feeling tells me putting a powder blue in a 1'x1' tank is not a good idea.

[naesco]

I'm in the early stages of planning a new tank, and I wanted to see what you guys thought of these fish in the dimensions I'm planning-

Tank will be 36x36x22, so 123 total gallons (though I'll likely have 2 inches of sand).

I don't want many fish, but the two that I really hope can live in a tank this size are a powder blue tang and a copper band butterfly.

what does everyone think about those fish in a tank that size? I know people normally say 6 foot minimum for a tang like that, but I have zero experience with cubes, so I'm not sure if that gives you more options in terms of fish.

Any thoughts?

Tangs are swimmers. They swim to and fro and need the length that larger tanks provide.
Anyone who has had a 3 or 4 footer can attest that the longer tank is more suitable for tangs. I think you know that.

Like almost all reefers I have not been able to keep a CB lontg enough to determine their spacial needs.
Wayne

[fishoholic]

Personally I think the powder blue is a very bad idea. They can be hard to keep (finicky eaters, ich magnets, and a lot of them when they first come in to a lfs have internal parasites) also they are aggressive fish once fully established. If you saw the way Doug's powder blue cruises back and forth in his 7 foot long tank you'd realize 36x36 is way to small for one.

[naesco]

Personally I think the powder blue is a very bad idea. They can be hard to keep (finicky eaters, ich magnets, and a lot of them when they first come in to a lfs have internal parasites) also they are aggressive fish once fully established. If you saw the way Doug's powder blue cruises back and forth in his 7 foot long tank you'd realize 36x36 is way to small for one.

Well put and I agree the powder blue tang is not a good choice. see http://wetwebmedia.com/powdbluetg.htm

They too ofter get sick for no apparent reason die and take many of their tank mates with them.

[reefwars]

Personally If you saw the way Doug's powder blue cruises back and forth in his 7 foot long tank you'd realize 36x36 is way to small for one.

That's interesting cause my friend Paul with a 700g 10ft said the same thing that if you saw his tangs swim back and forth you'd see how 6ft isn't enough.

I agree about the aggression not so much about the room, fish are going to use up the space they have be it 3ft or 10ft when you compare it to where they come from I guess none of its really fair is it?

I don't buy the bit that this fish just dies for no reason that could be said for 50 different species when the diagnosis is done by hobbyist with no medical back ground no?

[reeferfulton]

[QUOTE=fishoholic;825741 If you saw the way Doug's powder blue cruises back and forth in his 7 foot long tank you'd realize 36x36 is way to small for one.[/QUOTE]

I hate these threads and I love them. :biggrin:

Proof that every fish is different. And every tank is different. At the end of the day every single fish tank is too small for any fish.

But if the tang police feel better cause there tank is 2 feet longer then I'm happy for you.
But I have never seen a 6 foot tank with only one tang. There is always a whole bunch In there competing. .

Just be responsible. If you truly feel the fish are suffering then do the right thing by them and pass them along.

To the op. 2 large fish seem reasonable for that size tank. But my experience is limited. And I know nothing about the characteristics of those two fish..

O the tang rants I love them

[fishoholic]

I don't buy the bit that this fish just dies for no reason that could be said for 50 different species when the diagnosis is done by hobbyist with no medical back ground no?

Having worked at a fish store with a dedicated QT back room you see enough fish to start to be able to recognize certain fish diseases. I never said they die for no reason, most have internal parasites that cause issues with eating ie: never will take to frozen or will try to nibble at/start to eat frozen but not gain any weight due to internal parasites. Seen enough super skinny lumpy tummy powder blues to be able to recognize eating issues when I see it. Not to mention the well known ich magnets they are. Add that with a tank that's to small for them and IMO you're asking for trouble/issues. The OP asked for opinions on tank size/compatibility so I gave him mine.

[daniella3d]

3' tank might be acceptable for a small tang if it has swimming room all around. I have a coral beauty in my 2' x 2' tank and the coral beauty cruise the 4 walls without interruption. If it is limited to 3 walls or 2 walls free for swimming then the fish is going to hit the wall, turn around, hit the other wall and turn around add nauseum. That start to look like a tiger in cage going from one side of its fence to the other all day long...sad.

That's interesting cause my friend Paul with a 700g 10ft said the same thing that if you saw his tangs swim back and forth you'd see how 6ft isn't enough.

I agree about the aggression not so much about the room, fish are going to use up the space they have be it 3ft or 10ft when you compare it to where they come from I guess none of its really fair is it?

I don't buy the bit that this fish just dies for no reason that could be said for 50 different species when the diagnosis is done by hobbyist with no medical back ground no?

[Aquattro]

I don't buy the bit that this fish just dies for no reason

Have you kept a powder blue? I've gone through probably 8 of them over the years, they like to die. It's their thing -lol The one that I bought "used" lived, but turned into a major bully and had to be removed to save my Achilles..one of the more difficult fish, IMO.

[kien]

I too have had lots of PBTs in my time and it has also been my experience that PBT are very fragile fish. You may get lucky and find one that is more robust than most, but generally speaking they have a bad track record for long term survival. We could solve this by doing up a poll though :-)

As for your tank size, those are great dimensions Adam! Looking forward to your tank journal :biggrin:

[reefwars]

Have you kept a powder blue? I've gone through probably 8 of them over the years, they like to die. It's their thing -lol The one that I bought "used" lived, but turned into a major bully and had to be removed to save my Achilles..one of the more difficult fish, IMO.

yes and mine didnt die for unknown reasons it starved.... pretty simple to determine why that happened, im sure there are good reasons why the fish dies when it does but because of the fishes nice baby blue color it attracts alot of people who dont know when a fish is starving , sick or infected so when the fish dies its unknown.

i never said this fish was for beginners but i also dont buy it that they just up and die in mass numbers for unknown reasons either.

out of the eight you had i bet most of their deaths was explainable

[kien]

All fish deaths are explainable, except when the hobbyist can't explain it. Then it's unexplainable.

[reefwars]

All fish deaths are explainable, except when the hobbyist can't explain it. Then it's unexplainable.

sounds like the twilight zone:P

[kien]

sounds like the twilight zone:P

Which more or less sums up reef keeping, no? :-)

[Aquattro]

Which more or less sums up reef keeping, no? :-)


Bingo!!

[asylumdown]

In my reading, it has been pointed out that cpb's don;t eat mysis in the wild.
They are omnivorous but their diet consists mostly of micro flora (and some fauna) so even when they are eating frozen, they're basically living on mcdonalds.

Thats why so many reputed to be eating frozen foods still die from malnutrition.

hehe, considering that PE mysis comes from freshwater lakes in northern BC and Hikari mysis comes from some other fresh water source, any marine animal that eats frozen mysis is technically eating McDonalds. I think anything that gets all of it's food from a single source will eventually have problems, that's why I try and feed a variety of things that are fortified with different blends of vitamins.


Why do you want a copperband? hope you know they are very finiky eaters and you might have to give it some live food and messy food like fresh live mussels. They often have problem feeding because they are gentle fish and other more aggressive fish will get to all the food before the copperband even have a bite. They are way best kept in a tank with no aggressive fish at all. Mine was with one niger trigger that was always hiding, and just a few small fish. I was feeding him twice a day with a pipette so that he would eat. They can be very time consuming and you must be prepare for this.

They're my favourite fish. Great personalities, curious, non-aggressive, eat out of my hands, cool looking, keeps certain pests in check... the list goes on. I don't mind giving extra attention getting them to eat.

Personally I think the powder blue is a very bad idea. They can be hard to keep (finicky eaters, ich magnets, and a lot of them when they first come in to a lfs have internal parasites) also they are aggressive fish once fully established. If you saw the way Doug's powder blue cruises back and forth in his 7 foot long tank you'd realize 36x36 is way to small for one.

Yah that's what I'm worried about. Well, either I'll get a bigger tank, or no powder blue. The closest I came to having success with one was when all my fish were in quarantine while my display was being fallowed for ich. I got a powder blue right at the start so that they would all go through the same ich treatment protocol and QT together. That fish was perfect. At first he would only eat nori, but after about 5 weeks he figured out mysis was food and started eating with the rest of the fish. Gained a ton of weight, and *seemed* ok in a 40 gallon QT (he was pretty small though). Ate out of my hands, was perfect. Lost him along with every single other fish when the door to the room they were in was closed by mistake during a party and the room overheated. Broke my heart, they were less than a week away from going back in the big tank, and that powder blue was fat, and perfectly healthy. I've always wanted to try again, but perhaps not this time. It stresses me out watching a fish go crazy from not enough room, and if you get the impression that they're still cramped in a 7 foot tank I'll take that advice to heart.

OK, well I need some sort of an algae grazer. My next best option is a doliatus rabbitfish as I have one of those now and it swims circles around any tang from an algae eating point of view, but I'm also not convinced a 3ftx3ft tank is big enough for them. My current guy is getting pretty big. If it is another smaller tang though, it needs to be showy and less common. I'm not sure which species fit that bill though.

[fishoholic]

Maybe a white tail bristletooth tang? They look pretty cool and stay smallish and aren't to common.

http://forums.saltwaterfish.com/content/type/61/id/370298/width/350/height/700/flags/LL