Temporary high phosphates for SPS?

[Reef Pilot]

I have 2 tanks running on separate sumps. But I have only 1 chiller. Last summer, I ran both tanks off the single sump with the chiller, and no problems. I would like to do the same again this year.

In the sump for the main display tank, I run both bio pellets and GFO, so my nitrates and phosphates are consistently zero. I have neither in the downstairs tank, and my nitrates run around 20 ppm while my phosphates are closer to about 0.6 at this point in time. Just a month ago the phospates in the downstairs tank were close to 1.0. But I switched my GFO to that sump, which brought down the phosphates. However, they are still a long ways from zero. Interestingly, the main display tank only has bio pellets now, and the phosphates are still staying at zero.

The concern is that I now have SPS in my main display tank, and they are used to zero nitrates and zero phosphates. If I combine the tanks into 1 sump, I expect the phosphates to go up considerably, maybe over .30, at least for a temporary time until the GFO can bring them down to near zero again. My SPS are doing really nicely now, with great color (eg. my purple cross is really purple), and I would hate to see them go brown, or lose their color.

So my question is, what do you think will happen to my SPS when I combine the tanks? I should mention that the main display tank with the SPS is 100 g, while the downstairs tank with LPS and softies is 130 g.

The other option is holding off combining them until the GFO brings down the phosphates a little more. But we have some warm weather in the forecast for later this week, and I know I will be fighting high temps in the downstairs tank. We had a warm spell back in April here, and the temps went up to 81 during the day time for a couple days. Normal temp is 78.

Of course, I should have started the GFO earlier on the downstairs tank. So now my choice is to live with higher temps in that tank during the warm spell, or higher phosphates for a while in my SPS tank.

What would you do?

[Proteus]

I would think bring down po4 to near same as other tank. One of the causes for crash on other thread was bad water. Some WC may help speed that up

[Reef Pilot]

So, will the fish and corals be OK at 81 F or higher? Normal is 78.

[Proteus]

Yeah 81 will be ok.
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd400/titus991/null-29.png

[daniella3d]

It depends, you could have a lack of oxygen from this high temperature, depending on your bioload. You could have RTN due to high temperature depending of you have some bacterias present in your tank that may become more virulent at higher temperature and attack corals.

going from 78 to 81 is quite a bit. How about AC or a chiller?

As for the corals browning, I have about 10ppm of nitrates now and I don't even check my phosphates any longer, yet my corals have beautiful coloration. They do not go brown automatically because a bit of nitrates or phosphates and if they would do it, they would probably return to pastel color when the water return to low nutrient again...

Here is what my corals look like with 10ppm nitrates and .25 phosphates. Not pastel color but surely not dull in color either.


http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy143/daniella3ds/P5130329s_zps0dd40393.jpg

http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy143/daniella3ds/P5130465s_zpsb75da0f6.jpg

http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy143/daniella3ds/P5130440s2_zps785d4f28.jpg

http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy143/daniella3ds/P5130363s_zps99c841b8.jpg
So, will the fish and corals be OK at 81 F or higher? Normal is 78.

[Reef Pilot]

It depends, you could have a lack of oxygen from this high temperature, depending on your bioload. You could have RTN due to high temperature depending of you have some bacterias present in your tank that may become more virulent at higher temperature and attack corals.

going from 78 to 81 is quite a bit. How about AC or a chiller?

As for the corals browning, I have about 10ppm of nitrates now and I don't even check my phosphates any longer, yet my corals have beautiful coloration. They do not go brown automatically because a bit of nitrates or phosphates and if they would do it, they would probably return to pastel color when the water return to low nutrient again...

Here is what my corals look like with 10ppm nitrates and .25 phosphates. Not pastel color but surely not dull in color either.



Well, your corals are beautiful, no question about that. And that is with some nitrates and quite a bit of phosphate. So that is encouraging. But like I said, the SPS is used to zero nitrates and phosphates right now.

I too am worried about the high temps. But with only 1 chiller, I would have to combine the tanks, and live with the higher phosphates.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[H2o2]

Grab a good used chiller at a reasonalbe price on here and plug in if weather gets hot unplug if it doesnt

[marie]

My tank goes from 78 to 84 degrees every day.......I don't recommend that big of a daily temp swing but the corals in my tank seem ok with it :biggrin:

[Reef Pilot]

Grab a good used chiller at a reasonalbe price on here and plug in if weather gets hot unplug if it doesnt
Well, I was hoping my phosphates would come down faster, so I can combine the tanks, like last year, to use a single sump and chiller. I thought of getting another chiller, even just as a back up, so I do have my eyes open for one. But I want another good one, like I have now.

My tank goes from 78 to 84 degrees every day.......I don't recommend that big of a daily temp swing but the corals in my tank seem ok with it :biggrin:
Wow, that is a pretty high temp, and a large swing. I am surprised your fish are OK with that. Did you notice their gills breathing faster? Even at 81, I thought some of my fish were breathing quite fast, and I became a little concerned.

[marie]

Non of my fish are bothered. Even when my bowfront hit 86 a few years ago the fish were fine.... I did turn the lights off though, I wasn't comfortable with 86 temp even if the fish coped with it :lol:

[fishytime]

put a fan on the basement tank on a timer(to coincide with your lights).....this will drop the tank probably three degrees.....personally I wouldnt waste money on a chiller....if your thinking about going that route then consider a portable AC unit for that room, then both you and the tank are comfortable:wink:

[daniella3d]

wow, what type of corals do you keep at 84 and 86? because many sensitive acroporas and SPS would surely RTN at this high temperature, especially the deep water.

Non of my fish are bothered. Even when my bowfront hit 86 a few years ago the fish were fine.... I did turn the lights off though, I wasn't comfortable with 86 temp even if the fish coped with it :lol:

[Reef Pilot]

put a fan on the basement tank on a timer(to coincide with your lights).....this will drop the tank probably three degrees.....personally I wouldnt waste money on a chiller....if your thinking about going that route then consider a portable AC unit for that room, then both you and the tank are comfortable:wink:
Yeah, I do have some further options to keep my tank temp down. We actually have central AC, so the room temp isn't a problem. But I do have canopies and covers on my tanks, so that is really what keeps them on the warm side. I can open the door on the canopy and remove the tank cover. I am sure those will help.

My real question, though, had to do with the effect of higher phosphates on SPS that are used to zero in my main tank, and also how high heat my fish and corals can handle in my downstairs tank.

I am still hoping my phosphates will continue to fall in my downstairs tank with the GFO, and would like to hold off having to combine the tanks as long as possible. I know once summer hits, I will need the chiller for the downstairs tank too, as I don't want to make the temporary aids (like canopy open and tank cover off) permanent.

[Aquattro]

My 150 went from 80 to 89/90 daily for about two months during a summer when my chiller died. The fish all did fine and on the hottest day (91), I lost all of one species (5 different pieces of it throughout the tank), but nothing else. I probably lost some of my lifespan stressing about it, but the tank did fine. I wouldn't recommend it, but going to 84 shouldn't hurt much, unless you have a huge fish load. Then O2 might come into it. But if you've got good surface movement and a good skimmer, O2 should stay in the safe range.

As for PO4, I would expect a sudden shift in levels (either direction) might not be really good.

[Reef Pilot]

Wow, am surprised at how high temps the corals and fish can handle. My downstairs tank has only LPS and softies, no SPS, so am less concerned about the corals.

But because my SPS has been doing so well in my main upstairs tank, that's where my biggest concern is, if the P04 jumps up when I combine the tanks.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I will take it day by day, and see what happens.

[Aquattro]

Wow, am surprised at how high temps the corals and fish can handle.

Just a note, when I say they were fine, they were fine and brown. So not REALLY fine, but not dead, and they did grow quite a bit :)

[Reef Pilot]

Just a note, when I say they were fine, they were fine and brown. So not REALLY fine, but not dead, and they did grow quite a bit :)
Understood..., but like I said, my downstairs tank has only LPS and softies, The upstairs tank has the SPS and is kept constant at around 78. It could not survive without a chiller, I'm quite sure...

Other than the summer, my downstairs tank is fine without a chiller, as that is in the basement floor, and the room temps down there are usually 70 or less. But on the main floor, where we have the thermostat, I have the AC kick in at 75. We have a northwest exposure there, so doesn't take a lot to get up that high when it is sunny out.

What happens, though, when the central AC runs, is the downstairs actually heats up, as the air circulates throughout the house. So the room temps down there are at least 5 F degrees higher than winter or spring. I know, sounds like of weird, but that is what happens....

[FishyFishy!]

Reallistically, to do this properly, you would want to run both products on both tanks, so that they are fairly in sync as far as perameters are concerned when you combine the systems. I think that from 0 to around 1.0 is a pretty large difference when phosphates are concerned. I would try to get the parameters more on the same level.

Are you able to put GFO and BioPellets on both tanks to start before you combine them?

Salinity is huge too. I combined two tanks once, not knowing that my salinity was waaaay off in one of the tanks (thanks to a plastic hydrometer) and the tank with the lower salinity's inhabitants all died. (mind you, this was just combining inhabitants into one tank, not sharing system water like you are, but still the same idea).

[Reef Pilot]

Reallistically, to do this properly, you would want to run both products on both tanks, so that they are fairly in sync as far as perameters are concerned when you combine the systems. I think that from 0 to around 1.0 is a pretty large difference when phosphates are concerned. I would try to get the parameters more on the same level.

Are you able to put GFO and BioPellets on both tanks to start before you combine them?

Salinity is huge too. I combined two tanks once, not knowing that my salinity was waaaay off in one of the tanks (thanks to a plastic hydrometer) and the tank with the lower salinity's inhabitants all died. (mind you, this was just combining inhabitants into one tank, not sharing system water like you are, but still the same idea).
I agree, and ideally want to get all parameters the same before combining the tanks. Salinity is very close to the same, though, as when I do water changes, I only put new SW in the main floor tank, and the downstairs tank gets the old water from that tank. Saves on salt costs....:mrgreen:

And by moving my GFO over to the downstairs tank sump, I have brought the P04 down to .62 when I last checked a few days ago. I also just changed out the GFO, so will check again in a couple days, and hopefully it will be down more. The good news is that the main floor tank (with the SPS) still has zero phosphates with just the bio pellet reactor running.

[marie]

wow, what type of corals do you keep at 84 and 86? because many sensitive acroporas and SPS would surely RTN at this high temperature, especially the deep water.

This is the tank that went up to 86 a few years ago
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/mariesnell/may0110004.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mariesnell/media/may0110004.jpg.html)

The tank I have now has a mix of sps, lps and softies

[Reef Pilot]

Well, I've got my phosphates down to .03 on the other tank, with the help of Foz Down. The stuff works pretty well.

But my nitrates are still at 20 -30 ppm. When I combine the tanks to one sump, I am assuming the nitrates should be cut in half or more, and then with the bio pellets running on that sump, should take care of the rest.

Do you think the SPS will mind temporarily high nitrates? They have been used to zero nitrates and phosphates for some time now.

[Proteus]

I guess it depend on the state of sps now. If its healthy it may not notice.
Ie: I'm looking after a few pieces that were in the state of stn. I dipped th all in RPS and added to my tank. Last night I removed LR from sump to put in new skimmer stand and after puting rock back in I stirred up some debris most Likely bring nutrients. Today while light come on I noticed that while all corals looked good one of the affected pieces had turned to RTN.

So I would suggest maybe to be prepared on a WC it corals react badly

[daniella3d]

I have quite a bit of nitrates in my tank and never had a problem with SPS. Now my nitrates are around 5ppm but last month it was at 40ppm. :redface:

My sps always have been doing great no matter what the nitrates. Recently I bought 10 fresh cut SPS frags that were kept in ULN tank and very light in color, almost bleached. I only lost one frag and they other are starting to color up nicely, not turning brown at all, rather getting some nice fluoresence and colors.

[Reef Pilot]

I have quite a bit of nitrates in my tank and never had a problem with SPS. Now my nitrates are around 5ppm but last month it was at 40ppm. :redface:

Well, that's good to know. Temp in my downstairs tank peaked at 81.2 last evening, so looking forward to getting these tanks combined soon, so the chiller can do its job. Weather is supposed to cool off a bit the next few days, so should still be OK.

[Reef Pilot]

I combined my tanks into 1 sump yesterday, so I can cool both with my single chiller. Just in time, too, as it is supposed to get real warm here on the weekend and next week.

My concern had been with high phosphates and nitrates in my downstairs tank, and when combined it would raise both. My main floor DT has SPS and has been used to zero nitrates and phosphates for some time with the use of bio pellets and GFO.

I have been using Foz Down to bring down the phosphates in my downstairs tank. It works great, as it brought it down from over 1.0 to near zero over a few weeks. But it won't stay there, and if I don't add it for a day it is over 0.1 again. Seems like there are still a lot of phosphates leaching out of the rocks and sand.

Anyway after combining, I checked my params this morning, and the phosphates are at 0.11 right now. So will have to keep adding Foz Down, I guess. My nitrates also went up to 10 ppm, which makes sense as the downstairs tank was running at about 20 - 30.

Will have to see now if my SPS reacts. I may have to add more bio pellets to my reactor (only about 1/4 full now, and haven't added for 6 months).

At least my temps are good now, steady at 78.4.

[kien]

From about mid June to September my temps go from 77 at night to 81 (or 82 on a really hot day). And this is with central AC. Without central AC the temp will go beyond 83 which is too high for my comfort level :-) At any rate, my tank seems to do fine at 81/82. As already suggested, do make sure your tank is well oxygenated (which most tanks are anyway, with skimmers, etc) if your tank is trending to the 80s.

[Reef Pilot]

Well, mine was getting up close to 82 a couple times already when we had warm weather. Luckily, the warm spells only lasted a few days so far this year. But it is going to get much warmer the next couple months, so I think it would have been big trouble.

We do have central A/C. But ironically, the basement warms up too, when it runs, as the air circulates the entire house. We set our A/C temp at 76, which is still warmer than most of the year. The problem is we have a 3 level house, all exposed to the northwest (including the basement level, as we are on a hill), and the sun really heats it up later in the day.

I ran the 2 tanks combined on 1 sump last summer and it worked well. The other advantage is that I decommission 2 pumps (return pump and skimmer) and one sump, so that also saves heat and electricity. On the combined sump I have a single Sedra 20000 with multiple T's that returns both tanks (one up a floor level) as well as to my bio pellet reactor, chiller, and GFO/carbon reactors. It is a very powerful pump, with lots of head pressure, and quiet, too.