Feel like quitting...

[halwake]

Decided a few months ago I was ready to upgrade from my 36 gallon salt tank to a 120 gallon. Fow the last 2 months I have been setting things up, ordering items and so on. I was on a waiting list for a few new fish, they called and said the fish were in and asked if I wanted them. I said yes even though the new tank was just being set up, I thought 4 weeks in QT would be fine for the three new guys anyways(I was planning on transferring all my liverock in the 36 gallon to the new one to help reduce cycle time, I also had a ton of rubble in the tank filter that had been running I was planning on using). I set up 2-45 gallon rubbermaid totes with a heater, new water and water from the established tank, powerhead, and air powered sponge filter. Achilles tang in one after careful acclimation, kole and powder blue into the second. I know achilles and powder blue's are not recommended, but I have seen it done if they are added at the same time. Anyways, doing 20 % water changes every second day and testing for ammonia. Achilles was doing great, kole was doing great, powder blue got light case of ich and was slow and lethargic. Treated with coppersafe as per man. instructions. Next day powder blue was dead. Did 50% water change next day Kole was gone. Achilles still doing great. Re-ordered fish (kole, powder blue, regal angel), main tank was just about ready to transfer so I though by the time QT was over we would be good. Got the fish and they were acclimated and added to the 45 gallon rubbermaid QT. Kole and Regal were great, powder blue slow and lethargic. Next day powder blue showing ich, other 2 were still great, did a half dose of cupramine, tested for copper, was sitting at .3 Next day did my water change, added and re-tested for copper (.3) Next day found powder blue dead, kole dead and regal barely hanging in. I performed a 50% water change and did not replace copper. I did not know what else to do to save the regal. I ended up adding him the the 36 gallon and turned the UV on full time. He seemed to improve. Next day he was dead. Long story short, the shop re-sent me a powder blue, I paid for a new kole and completely drained and cleaned the one rubbermaid QT (no cleaners just wiping out and rinsing. Fish came in , accliminated them, added powder blue to the rubbermaid, kole to 36 gallon direct. Next day my small yellow in the 36 has signs of ich, flame angel scratching a bit, due to me putting the regal in 5 days previous, I check the UV and the bulb had burnt out. I took all rock out to catch my fish, acliminated them to the QT and put them in. Kole and yellow went to a 10 gallon. I did a half dose of cupramine to the rubbermaid and 10 gallon, tested, .3 Later that day the powder blue did not make it, he had declined from the previous day, flame angel seems very stressed from being rounded up and put into QT. I am worried he will not tolerate the low dose cupramine. Now the 36 gallon has to remain fishless for 4-6 weeks so I cannot transfer out the remaining live rock and rubble to the new tank without transferring ich. Guess I wait to see if everyone makes it the night, finish cupramine treatment for 3 weeks and start slowly adding to the 120 gallon....

[Myka]

Wow, that's a lot of dead fish. Have you considered switching up your quarantine and treatment methods? I would suggest a bigger QT for Tangs unless they were ridiculously small. Also, I've found copper to be a harsh treatment and too much monitoring and messing around. I've used Chloroquine phosphate with better results. Another thought, anything I QT Tangs or any other fish known to be Ich magnets I always start acclimating them to hyposalinity within the first few days. Hyposalinity isn't a good treatment for Ich, but it is a great preventative. For Tangs like Powder Blues and Achilles you could do a FW w/ methylene blue or Formalin dip as soon as you get them while you're acclimating which will at least knock off parasites.

One last thought, imo an Achilles Tang does not belong in a 120-gallon tank. They are particularly active Tangs and really do better in much larger aquariums.

Ok, one more thought...copper treatments often mess up the results of certain ammonia test kits. I do wonder if ammonia is your culprit or maybe there is an issue with that Rubbermaid tub.

[halwake]

Thought about the ammonia too, we are getting trace amounts, not quite to the first color on the card, and I am doing 25% water changes every second day. Using RODI water. Had to take Flame Angel out of the QT and put him back where he was, we was not tolerating the copper at all even at 1/2 dose. When I got the Achilles he got a fresh water dip before going into QT, no chemical but had a cleaner shrimp with him and he is doing great. I can't seem to keep a Powder Blue alive.

[Myka]

By "the card", do you mean the SeaChem Ammonia Alert badge? If so, I actually keep them on all my tanks and find they are great to use as an alert, but the readings are terribly inaccurate. I've found the badges to regularly be off by 10x the ammonia. So if the badge says 0.1 ppm then my test kit will often read 1.0 ppm. I use an ammonia detoxifier as soon as I see a hint of color on the badge.

Powder Blue Tangs (and Achilles) are generally very sensitive fish and don't ship very well. I would suggest you ask the LFS to hold the Powder Blue for at least a few days until the fish is eating at the store and looking spunky and healthy. How big of a specimen have you been getting? I find they are a bit hardier around 3" than 5"+. Do you have anything in the QT for the fish to feel more comfortable? With copper you need plastic things (like PVC or plastic bowls), but if you use other medications you can use clay pots which are handy.

[halwake]

API master test kit I have been using. Do have some large mugs in the QT. Hoping the Bangaii's, clowns, and Royal Gramma can handle the copper at half dose. Will do 25% daily water changes. Every Powder Blue I get seems to do not to bad until the second day and goes down hill. Maybe they should not be Cupramined at all even at half dose. I kinda gave up on them for now... All have been 3-4 inches

[daniella3d]

wow yes, that's a lot of dead fish. Please stop using copper, it's very dangerous for fish and not a good treatment for ick. Use hyposalinity instead which is easy on the fish.

I suspect the copper killed the fish rather than the ick.

You should really leave your main tank fishless for 2 months and then do a proper quarantine of 6 weeks with hyposalinity and that should work better. I had 100% sucess with hyposalinity treating ick, and I always combien hyposalinity with Seachem Paraguard and I never lost a fish in quarantine. ON top of that, I use fully cured liverock (no coral) in the QT with the hyposalinity and Paraguard and never had a trace of ammonia. Paraguard does not destroy the biofilter, nor will hyposalinity so filtration remain very good with liverock.

[paddyob]

That seem like a lot of water changes. I can't see how The stability and chemistry of the tank could not exist.

[daplatapus]

If for nothing else other than exploring another option, PLEASE check up on the tank transfer method for Ich QT. Not very stressful on fish if they are caught right (drain some water from tank before trying to catch them) and you never have to worry about ammonia/nitrate issues because you're doing 100% water changes every couple days.

[ScubaSteve]

I think the others covered it, so I'll just say: I know the feeling. I set a a small experimental tank in my kitchen and put clowns in there for my GF. Seems clowns have a magical ability to teleport into my pumps. No matter what I try to do to make the tank safer, they still seem to find a way into the pump. Several clownfish later and i've given up... Can't imagine going through several tangs.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with the powder blue. Those fish seem to just always be sick. I don't think I've ever seen one that actually looks healthy. Nice fish, but they seem like too much of a headache to me.

[scubadawg]

Too many water changes, not letting the tank cycle on its own, not letting build up its beneficial bateria

[Ken]

Too many water changes, not letting the tank cycle on its own, not letting build up its beneficial bateria

Agreed, let the tank mature, building up the biological bacteria takes time & letting new fish quarantine in the lfs for a good length of time. Regards Ken

[halwake]

Thanks for the support everyone. Had everyone in the 36 gallon that was running for 1.5 years put into 45 gallon rubbermaid for treatment before I got replies. Cupramine at half dose, Flame angel did not tolerate it, moved him back to the 36 gallon establised tank. Kole was doing good then took a turn for the worse. Pretty sure he will not pull through. Moved him back to the 36 gallon. Yellow seems to be tolerating it for now. The 120 is still running with just my clean up crew, my mandarin I've had for a year and cleaner shrimp. Scared to add anyboby until this is all sorted out. The water changes I was doing were on the QT tank only just to make sure there was no ammonia, have been adding stability as well. Cupramine even at half dose and slowly introoduced seems to be the common denominator. Should I just remove it and do hypo now like a few people have said?

[SanguinesDream]

Where are you getting your fish from?

I am up here too and the nearest marine store is 4 hours from you. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that the source is your issue.

[halwake]

JL, I have had excellent luck with them, don't think that is the issue. I feel like I am grasping at straws right now.

[SanguinesDream]

From Vancouver? Are they being flown in because that is a long way. How are you acclimating them?

By the way, it is great to know that there is another reefer up here. If you ever want to split an order or need a hand, just give me a shout!

[daniella3d]

If you use Cupramine you cannot use a product to bind with ammonia as it will bind with the amine in Cupramine and then release the copper into a toxic form. Did you use any ammonia binder like Prime with the Cupramine? That would bind with the amines in cupramine and release the copper into a toxic form, at least from what I understood.

http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=3880

They say Stability is safe, but not ammonia binders.



The water changes I was doing were on the QT tank only just to make sure there was no ammonia, have been adding stability as well. Cupramine even at half dose and slowly introoduced seems to be the common denominator. Should I just remove it and do hypo now like a few people have said?

[halwake]

You bet, flying by west jet. Have good luck other than this recent stuff. Yes, good to finally know someone else in the area. Group order sure. Will have to place a new livestock order very soon to replace what I lost. Float new arrivals for twenty minutes or so, open bag and add half cup or so of destination water every five minutes or so. Usually takes thirty minutes or so. I don't think I am going too quick. Something is wrong though I have not lost a fish in a year and a half.

[halwake]

If you use Cupramine you cannot use a product to bind with ammonia as it will bind with the amine in Cupramine and then release the copper into a toxic form. Did you use any ammonia binder like Prime with the Cupramine? That would bind with the amines in cupramine and release the copper into a toxic form, at least from what I understood.

http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=3880

They say Stability is safe, but not ammonia binders.

I read that as well, never used Prime, used RODI water to mix salt. Then half dose cupramine spread out into three doses about fifteen minutes apart. Just used stability to help with good bacteria. Really bothers me to lose fish, especially now ones I have had a year and a half.

[halwake]

From Vancouver? Are they being flown in because that is a long way. How are you acclimating them?

By the way, it is great to know that there is another reefer up here. If you ever want to split an order or need a hand, just give me a shout!

Are you in Grande Prairie or Dawson?

[naesco]

Thanks for the support everyone. Had everyone in the 36 gallon that was running for 1.5 years put into 45 gallon rubbermaid for treatment before I got replies. Cupramine at half dose, Flame angel did not tolerate it, moved him back to the 36 gallon establised tank. Kole was doing good then took a turn for the worse. Pretty sure he will not pull through. Moved him back to the 36 gallon. Yellow seems to be tolerating it for now. The 120 is still running with just my clean up crew, my mandarin I've had for a year and cleaner shrimp. Scared to add anyboby until this is all sorted out. The water changes I was doing were on the QT tank only just to make sure there was no ammonia, have been adding stability as well. Cupramine even at half dose and slowly introoduced seems to be the common denominator. Should I just remove it and do hypo now like a few people have said?

It may not surprise a few with my candid comment but you are not a newbie. Why the rush?

Cycling and testing ammonia should be old hat for you.

Why would you choose a powder blue and an Achilles , both very difficult tangs to keep.

Why did you repeat your mistakes by ordering more tangs when things were not ok?

You seemed to know that adding three tangs at the same time were ok but a 120 gallon is too small for one tang(except the kole) let alone three tangs.

It was so sad for me to read your thread.

[scubadawg]

You have to use carbon or Cupersorb

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/CupriSorb.html

to get rid of the Cupermine.