Zeovit System

[Steve...]

Has anyone tried the "Zeovit" system? The products seem very expensive and was wondering if they are worth looking into. Are there any similar products?

[sphelps]

Yes people use it. Yes it's worth looking into, www.zeovit.com
ProdiBio is a similar type of product.

[slakker]

I use some of the additives, but not the reactor...

[globaldesigns]

I have used them all...

In regards to Zeovit, I used the complete system, was spending way too much money every month, and I had little to no results. I know of others with the same results, very little... I have however seen very beautiful tanks using it, and have determined along with others that larger tanks just don't seem to have the same results as smaller. FYI, my tank is over 180G with 100G sump.

I have used Prodibio, and have seen good results from it. And it way cheaper and easier, as it is biweekly dosing not daily. I myself got lazy though and over time ran out and just ever rebought. But I would suggest this over Zeo.

Currently I am running things very basic, KISS method (keep it simple Stup...), I recently added biopellets back in, as algae was developing, not major, but biopellets always help for that in the past.

So, you have a lot of choices, the above is just my experiences, good luck with whatever you choose to try.

[Steve...]

Good to know! My tank is also pretty big and I think it will be too costly . Where do you get the prodibio? Is that the actual name or is it short formed?

[BlueTang<3]

I am using it on my tank now have around 540 gallons. I was using it on and off on my last system 300 gallons or so, I estimate between using the more expensive salt and supplements 1000 a year. When I dosed religiously on the old tank it was amazing. But I got lazy. Search Dez or lobster boy amazing tanks using it. When I used it before I was dosing by the bottle amounts, now I am doing zeo start everyday morning and evening. Zeo back every few days as well as sponge power. I am going to slowly introduce one product at a time and see the results I get as I assume from before some prouducts didn't show amazing results.

[sphelps]

I always thought Prodibio was the more expensive option for larger tanks. I know for my tank I worked it out to around 2 full kits a month which is around $120 or so. I think I spend about half that on zeo for a similar line up of additives plus the reactor media.

In terms of which is better, peoples opinions will differ but in general comparing reviews will suggest zeovit is more demanding, contains higher risk but offers the best results. Prodibio is less demand, less risk but lower results. Which is right for you depends on the goal, if it doesn't relate to SPS coloration I wouldn't use either and stick with bio-pellets & gfo if anything at all.

[Aquattro]

I run the full system on about 220g of water. I'm more than happy with it. I even get lazy and forget to dose often, and I'm still happy with it. I buy the supps every boxing day and they last me the year.

[waynemah]

I've been using Zeo on my tank (300 gallons total) for a year now. I run the basic system. Zeolites in the reactor, bak, food and start. I feed heavily and it keeps my nitrates / phosphates down to a minimum. I dose 1/2 of what is recomended on the bottle (values determined by experts at zeovit.com) and the cost is really low. I dose 0.5ml start twice per day, 10 drops of bak/food twice per week, replace zeolites every few months. Total monthly cost might be in the $20 range for my system.

The biggest thing that leads to the success of this system is consistency and expectations. If you run the base system, expect good color, phosphate / nitrate control and most importantly the requirement to keep water changes consistent (5% a week). Don't expect anything to change overnight.

I ignored my duties for a month and the tank developed hair algae, cyano and the corals lost color / slowed growth. It's taken a couple of months to recover.

[asylumdown]

I've been using Zeo on my tank (300 gallons total) for a year now. I run the basic system. Zeolites in the reactor, bak, food and start.

How long does a bottle of Zeobak last you? I ask because this weekend I looked at my zeobak under the microscope and didn't see anything that was even remotely alive. There was barely even any debris that could have once been alive. My bottle was a couple of months old, so maybe it was just that it was too old, but even though the bacteria in the other 'no refrigeration necessary' bacteria supplements I've looked at were mostly dead, they at least were filled with plenty of cellular debris. If it was that it was too old and considering how long they last when you're dosing drops at a time... the whole thing makes me so very suspicious.

[waynemah]

50 ml bottle twice per year-ish.

Interesting you say that! I never noticed a difference if I skip bak/food but notice a huge difference when start is missed... Also when zeolites are changed/missed I see no difference.

[sphelps]

I always make sure I purchase Zeobak that came in directly from the supplier as retailers don't usually refrigerate it. Doubt suppliers do as well but the fresher the better I figure. The expiry dates on the bottles seem to disagree with what's written in the guide.

From the guide:
This product has a limited shelf life because it contains cultures of living microorganisms.
Unopened, it will last for at least 6 months if kept refrigerated. After the bottle is
opened, the shelf life is approximately 3 months. Spoiled strains can be identified by a
foul odor. If this is the case, some of the microorganisms are dead and the solution
cannot be used. We recommend purchasing a bottle size that can be used in a 3-month
period. It is better to purchase smaller amounts on a more frequent basis. Please make
sure to avoid any contamination of the solution in the bottle (e.g. with aquarium water).

Yet the last bottle I purchased has an expiry date of 2015.

I wish I had a microscope so I test for certain but for now I rely on the odor test.

[reefermadness]

I run the full system on about 220g of water. I'm more than happy with it. I even get lazy and forget to dose often, and I'm still happy with it. I buy the supps every boxing day and they last me the year.

I didnt know you are a zeohead Brad. I had you pegged as more of a basics old schooler.

[Aquattro]

I didnt know you are a zeohead Brad. I had you pegged as more of a basics old schooler.

Ya, mostly, but I got a good deal on the gear when I started the tank, and it works out well, even with my forgetful nature :) Mental note, change rocks this spring -lol

[albert_dao]

Well, coming from a guy who has handled and used more of the product than anyone else in North America, I can assure you that it can be used on a fairly casual basis. As Brad says, it all boils down to expectations.

I've used it with schedules similar to Prodibio with good results. This is something I'd recommend for systems where you are just trying to maintain low and stable nutrient levels, e.g. dose ZeoBak twice a week, ZeoStart3 3/4 times a week sans media.

If you are looking to turn your corals into a palette and manipulate colors, then you'll want to follow the system closely. However, it is unforgiving if you get lax for an extended period of time since the system is operating at extremely low energy/nutrient levels. You're playing on a knife's edge and should treat it correspondingly so.

I should also mention that the additives can be used within or without the system and they're all pretty amazing as long as you have a ULNS (although some are quite good at getting you there... Coral Snow...).

HTH

[Bill]

Tried it and it seemed to work at first but it's lots of work. I switched to sulphur reactor with phos remover and carbon over a year ago and never looked back.

[kien]

Has anyone tried the "Zeovit" system? The products seem very expensive and was wondering if they are worth looking into. Are there any similar products?

Zeovit works great. I am constantly blown away by how nice well maintained zeovit tanks are. There are a lot of examples of them on Canreef and on the web. Heck, just visit the official zeovit forum and you'll see tonnes of nice zeoVit tanks.

Is the price of zeoVit worth it? That's a very subjective question. Kinda like asking someone if a Ferrari is worth it? It'll get you from A to B, but then so will a Pinto. :lol:

[andestang]

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4537/3461/23841730037_large.jpg

[Steve...]

Thanks everyone for their inputs! I greatly appreciate getting the many feed backs. Im still undecided right now :(

[asylumdown]

I think some of my general suspicion about zeovit is that for it the entire line to work the way it's advertised, with all those myriad of drops and ointments, claiming to do X Y and Z to coral colour, growth, health, etc. it implies that the people at korralen-zucht know a great deal more about the molecular biology of corals than the biggest universities and public institutions in the world.

At the very best, shame on them for not publishing some of their data in a way that could benefit marine sciences, and at the worst, I call shenanigans on at least some of it.

What I think is more likely, is that there are some very basic elements of the system that do exactly as advertised - the zeolites and liquid carbon (zeostart and zeofood smell to me very much like they have something like vinegar in them) aggressively reduce nitrates/phosphates, and a few of the supplements with known pigment enhancing elements, and maybe the amino acids do bump up some of the colours that would otherwise be washed out in the ULN environment. But zeovit has dozens more (extremely expensive) products like Coral Booster, Pohl's Extra, biomate, etc. with these incredibly vague descriptions that claim to act on coral or microfaunal processes in much the same way that the pseudo-scientific alternative health industry labels their products. I'm immediately suspicious of any product that claims to 'boost immune response' in anything, because

a) Health is nothing more than the absence of disease and an immune system that behaves normally. A 'boosted' immune system is what causes diseases like MS and Lupus in humans and is the exact opposite of health. In humans and all animals, the goal is an immune system which is just active enough to keep disease at bay, any activity beyond that and the 'immune system' (whatever that looks like for corals) is likely to become pathological to the organism.

b) The immune responses of corals are many and myriad, and are at the very highest scientific levels only vaguely understood, so to claim that there's a commercially available product that can influence those responses in some beneficial way requires a huge leap of faith on the part of consumers. I think Korralen-Zucht should at least back up that claim by publishing what specific responses they have found to be effective in 'enhancing' in some beneficial way - that in itself would be be giant leap forward in our understanding of coral biology and would likely be accepted by a very prestigious journal.

That's just one example, and I know it's not the only claim that the zeovit products make, but it raises a red flag for me. I have a hypothesis that many of the products that are sold and re-branded with a fancy new name are simply re-formulations of their original products that were successful, in slightly different concentrations. If I have a few extra grand lying around one day and I don't want to spend it on new lights, I've half a mind to buy the whole line and have them analyzed chemically.

The only other thing I'd say about zeobak (and this applies to all bacterial supplements) is that unless it's refrigerated all the way along it's chain of custody it likely has very little bacteria in it by the time most people buy it. And the notion that the microfaunal assemblage of a tank could be influenced in any way by adding 5 drops of a solution to a system that's already populated by several hundred billion bacteria of who knows how many species, even if there actually were lots of bacteria in the solution being administered... that seems far-fetched to me. It would honestly be pretty easy to set-up a trial to test whether that was true or not, but it would require getting ahold of a sample of fresh zeobak and first confirming over a period of months whether or not there were any living bacteria in it at all.

*sigh* I promised myself I wouldn't write another novel. I have to stop leaving my soap-box so easily accessible.

Disclaimer - I type all of this with a bottle of Pohl's Xtra and Coral booster hooked up to my auto-doser, and a drawer full of zeovit products.

[BlueTang<3]

All I got out of this thread is pintos are good ?

It all comes down too what your looking to achieve. Are you just going for low nutrient or do u want a nuts Sps tank?

Best bet would be read up on the zeo site it seems there is a little more help/ instruction for that product. Check out totm threads also a bunch of them are all on bio pellets there are. Ton of products out just need to pick what's best for ya

[albert_dao]

The only other thing I'd say about zeobak (and this applies to all bacterial supplements) is that unless it's refrigerated all the way along it's chain of custody it likely has very little bacteria in it by the time most people buy it. And the notion that the microfaunal assemblage of a tank could be influenced in any way by adding 5 drops of a solution to a system that's already populated by several hundred billion bacteria of who knows how many species, even if there actually were lots of bacteria in the solution being administered... that seems far-fetched to me. It would honestly be pretty easy to set-up a trial to test whether that was true or not, but it would require getting ahold of a sample of fresh zeobak and first confirming over a period of months whether or not there were any living bacteria in it at all.



Just to cherry pick a bit, there are two dudes on this board (imisky and emerald_crab) who have cultured Zeobak straight from the bottle, producing several strains based on the carbon source, so....

[Myka]

I used Zeovit, Fauna Marin, Prodibio, vodka, and probably something else I'm forgetting.

I think Zeovit is best suited to well seasoned reefers as it is a line of products that involves a lot of tweaking and a lot of observing. Newbies generally don't have the experience to see the little changes. Algae and cyano problems are common with those who don't tweak the recipe well. It is challenging imo, and involves dedicated daily dosing. This is the line of products for the perfectionist nit picker SPS freak imo. :D

Prodibio I like parts of. I really like BioDigest and BiOptim which used together are called BioClean. This is a bacteria and bacteria food supplement. I like these products on my SPS tank, but find little effect on my LPS/Zoa tank. Dosing these two products increases polyp extension and overall color quite significantly. I don't like the ReefBooster product which I find tends to spur cyano outbreak.

Fauna Marin is another of my favourites. I really like their Balling Light Method which includes balling salts aka calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium powdered supplements that I use in my dosers. These are my favourite "big 3" supplements. The Balling Light Method also includes Trace 1, 2, and 3 where trace 1 and 2 are added to the calcium doser and Trace 3 is added to the alkalinity doser. I add magnesium to my waterchange water along with potassium (I use Brightwell Aquatics Potassion-P). I also add a very small amount of Fauna Marin Ultra Organic on occasion - 2.5 mL twice a week or so in my 90 which is way under the label directions. I find this product really helps brighten up colors, but too much will cause cyano, so I am very careful with it.

I didn't have much luck with vodka dosing. Limewater (kalkwasser) dosing with vinegar seems to be a better option.

My LPS/Zoa tank doesn't seem to be affected much by supplements. I find it does best with low lighting, lots of blue spectrum, Fauna Marin LPS pellets for feeding on occasion and regular waterchanges. If I start mucking about too much it just grows algae and the corals don't do as well. This is a low maintenance tank.

[asylumdown]

Just to cherry pick a bit, there are two dudes on this board (imisky and emerald_crab) who have cultured Zeobak straight from the bottle, producing several strains based on the carbon source, so....

Yah I have no doubt that the age and storage conditions of my particular bottle had a lot to do with it. I would very much like to repeat the test with a fresh bottle. I'm not saying that korralen-Zucht is selling a bacterial supplement that has no bacteria in it, I'm saying that I'm not confident that what they're selling remains an active/effective product for long under the majority of usage conditions. Considering how it's stored at the store nearest my house and how long it takes them to turn over their supply... I'd bet that for a whole lot of people they've got nothing but water and some debris from the moment they open the bottle, making it a very expensive way to make yourself feel better about your tank maintenance regiment.

Also, successfully growing a culture of bacteria from a bottle is one thing, saying that dosing those bacteria in whatever quantity is present in each drop (which will be highly variable from person to person depending on where they bought it/how long they've had it) actually does anything at all in your tank is another. This isn't a problem unique to zeovit though, it's a valid question for all bacterial dosing systems.

I'm not against the zeovit system per se, in fact I'd probably be all over it if I had the patience to dose from droppers every single day. I'm just not convinced that beyond some bare bones base products that work very well to reduce nutrient loads in a tank, there are many products in their line-up that would make the differences claimed on their bottles in a double blind studies. Heck, I'm not even convinced that a lot of their claims are testable in any meaningful way given the vague, wishy washy, 'sounds like a biological statement but is in fact functionally meaningless' way they describe things on their bottles. It obviously works to achieve ULNS, but to do that you need like 3 products (4 if you believe that Zeobak has any value), and their line-up contains dozens which sell at 50 to 60 bucks a pop. I've managed to produce zeovit 'like' results with my tank (pastel colours, no algae growth, great polyp extension, enhanced growth) using biopellets and GFO, at a fraction of the cost of a zeovit system. I also just discovered tonight that my bottle of Pohl's extra is bone dry and likely has been for some time, and I had the dosing settings on my 'coral booster' set to 0 dosings a day (oops. You see why a system that requires daily attention would not be appropriate for me). I've noticed no difference in my coral's colour or growth rates since January, and while I know more than others that one anecdote does not a trend make, it gives me pause.

For what it's worth, I'm sure the people who sell it truly believe in it, so I don't think anyone is lying, and something about the system is clearly working because there are some spectacular zeovit tanks out there. The real question is how much of your money do you need to part with in a zeovit system to actually achieve those results. They would tell you quite a bit, when the reality is probably quite different.

[Myka]

Oh, I did forget to mention that there are Zeovit products that I really like on their own:

Coral Snow which effect I only see as a water clarifier though they claim it does much more.

Spur2 which makes SPS corals drop their zooxanthellae so you have to dose very carefully because if the corals drop all their zoox they will be dead. Dosed appropriately though, it helps control the richness of the colors so you can achieve anything from neon to pastel rather than deep rich hues. So that's a personal preference sort of a supplement. I also find that it helps browned out corals drop their brown zoox too.

Pohl's Xtra or Coral Vitalizer are both similar to FM Ultra Organic ime just by observation, they work like a food supplement. I find I have to be very careful with these as well or cyano outbreak will occur.

Iron Concentratereally increases green coloring, but will also greatly fuel algae, so I never dose this if I have any nuisance algae.

B-Balance is the only supplement I know of that really increases red coloring, but spurs algae just like the Iron.

When I tried the FULL Zeovit system (for about a year) I struggled very badly. I'm a well seasoned reefer, but I lack the passion to pick at my tank daily, and it seemed this was the cause of my failure. Once cyano hit me about 2 months in if I remember correctly, I struggled with small amounts of cyano for a long time after and finally quit Zeovit.

I find Prodibio, Fauna Marin, and Zeovit are all quite similar as far as their FULL line goes. Prodibio is much simpler and you dose only bi-weekly rather than daily. Also, Prodibio relies just on bacteria and bacteria food for nutrient export, no lith rocks. Very simply they are bacteria, bacteria food, coral food, and coral vitamins. You don't have to use the full line of any of the systems. You can use lith rocks with Prodibio if you want. You can use the Zeovit bacteria and food and the FM additives if you want. Of course each system is designed to work "in perfect harmony" with their own products, but I have found bits of this and bits of that work best for me. Ime, if you don't use lith rocks, you have to dose much, much less of the supplements than the labels suggest otherwise cyano moves in. These supplements really are concentrated.

You could always try Zeovit for a year and see how you feel about it. It definitely won't hurt your tank other than maybe spurring some cyano.

[daniella3d]

Do you have a microscope powerfull enough to see bacterias?

How long does a bottle of Zeobak last you? I ask because this weekend I looked at my zeobak under the microscope and didn't see anything that was even remotely alive. There was barely even any debris that could have once been alive. My bottle was a couple of months old, so maybe it was just that it was too old, but even though the bacteria in the other 'no refrigeration necessary' bacteria supplements I've looked at were mostly dead, they at least were filled with plenty of cellular debris. If it was that it was too old and considering how long they last when you're dosing drops at a time... the whole thing makes me so very suspicious.

[asylumdown]

Do you have a microscope powerfull enough to see bacterias?

yup. Between the 20X eyepiece I use for everything microbial and the 100X oil immersion stage, max total magnification is 2000X. That's not enough to see viruses, but it's far more than sufficient to see bacteria. To be honest, I find that one stage down (40X) with the 20X eye pieces (so 800X total) is the best to see if anything in there is living and swimming around. You'd really only need the 2000X if you were doing detailed cellular analysis and to honest I don't think the optics on my microscope are good enough enough for that, not without some sophisticated staining at least.

[msjboy]

take at look at the hardcore zeovit setups from their forum:


http://www.zeovit.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=88

Some I have to say are super nice but again, based on people with time and money.

Look at the famous, reef in the sky tank owned by a pilot in Hong Kong... think tank was made in Toronto..... sickly nice sump as well.

msjboy