Possible zoa poisoning

[jason604]

So yesterday I bought a couple zoas. I did do some research on them prior to purchasing and read that they contain palytoxins which is apparently the most poisonous natural substance known to man! Anyways I took extra precaution when I tramsfered them to my tank. Wearing gloves when I was moving them, but I think I must have accidentally touched the tubing end in which I sucked in to siphon water to acclimate them. I then felt a bit dizzy about a few minutes later but didn't really think anything of it. After I finish putting them in my tank my heart slightly started to race then followed by hard time breathing. I then googled and found out these were the signs of palytoxin poisoning which would soon lead to body paralysis and death. I think kind of freaked out and my heart started to pound more n had a much harder time breathing. I thought I was just scaring myself into thinking that I actually got poisoned and that it was just all in my head. I then just slept it off. Then today I felt odd and my left arm is all numb and aches even till now. I went to my doctor and he said I might have gotten slightly poisoned by ingesting the poison. He then told me If I were to ingest a higher amount I would only have had 90mins to get treated at the hospital ori would have died!!! Next time I'm not taking any chances with these things and will go to the hospital ASAP! Be careful with your zoas guys!!, don't take any risk and remember the most beautiful things in life can be the most deadly!

[CoralMuncher]

Good thing you're okay, close call! I would've freaked like crazy.
It's not touching them with the hand that's deadly. I used to handle them and touch the polyps all the time with bare hands when I didn't know any better. The important thing is to not touch your body or face afterwards. This lady was almost blind because she rubbed her eyes afterwards. Thanks for posting this. I'll be very careful about sucking on the end of a siphon now. Maybe wipe it beforehand?

[ckmullin]

http://i37.tinypic.com/3008w89.jpg

bring out the big boys!

[mseepman]

You should get yourself one of these too...great little device and pretty darn cheap.

http://innovative-marine.com/auqa-gadget/accu-drip.html

No more "sucking" for siphon to drip acclimate.

[Scythanith]

http://i37.tinypic.com/3008w89.jpg

bring out the big boys!

Those are for going in DEEP!

[Zoaelite]

Would love to see a photo of the zoanthid in question.

[11purewater]

Me too!

[jason604]

I purchased 3-4 diff types of zoas that day

First is the water melon
http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y428/jason_604/DB619339-72B8-47CA-B6A2-1991A1A70E70-2010-000001C7D79FA8E2_zps1169ea5c.jpg

A mix of fire n ice with some other zoas I forgot the name of
http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y428/jason_604/C7BF0042-031D-47B2-9BDC-5438A1058124-2010-000001C7E31486F5_zpsd902deaa.jpg

And lastly the green dragon eye. They have been closed since I moved them to my tank so I cant really take a pic so I got this one from google img
http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y428/jason_604/350456F5-7356-45D8-912B-0EB664CD790E-2010-000001C7EC4EF90B_zpsfcbac79d.jpg

The zoas look ****ty in my pic cuz I'm using my iPhone and I had to turn off my blue light or it's very hard to see on camera

My arm is feeling a little bit better today but still a bit numb. Dam zoas! Lol

[The Guy]

Would love to see a photo of the zoanthid in question.
I don't think it matters what one it is, they all give off a toxin when there being handled. I learned the hard way as well when handling them. Also if you are fragging out of the tank wear glasses. I use powder free throw away gloves as well.:wink:

[Zoaelite]

I don't think it matters what one it is, they all give off a toxin when there being handled. I learned the hard way as well when handling them. Also if you are fragging out of the tank wear glasses. I use powder free throw away gloves as well.:wink:

Wrong, only certain species from the order contain the toxin.

I'm not down playing how toxic the toxin is simply my opinion that 90% of the accusations put onto the internet don't have a credible base of evidence.

During this investigation, we found that many of the zoanthids commonly sold in the home aquarium trade are non-toxic or weakly-toxic, but a highly toxic variety of Palythoa (possibly P. heliodiscus or P. toxica) is indeed available

Found here (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0018235).

Every single one of the corals you added was a zoa, very unlikely they contain the toxin.

[mrhasan]

I would also like to point out something that Denny said few months ago in a similar thread...."paly" toxin. The name says it all. I am no expert but as far as I know, paly and zoas are different. Levi should correct me if I am wrong.

[Dearth]

It's one of the reasons I won't put Zoa's into my tank I love the colours of them but once bitten twice shy I never want to experience that pain ever again I read everything about the corals I have now and any future ones I plan to get especially any nasty surprises they may have but no more Zoa's for me.

[fishytime]

Wrong, only certain species from the order contain the toxin.

I'm not down playing how toxic the toxin is simply my opinion that 90% of the accusations put onto the internet don't have a credible base of evidence.



Found here (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0018235).

Every single one of the corals you added was a zoa, very unlikely they contain the toxin.

so he was imagining his symptoms and the doctor was wrong?


why do some people find it necessary to try and identify which ones are toxic and which ones are not?.....is it not a good thing just for all reefers in general to handle ALL zoanthus species with caution, so there is no second guessing?....especially when nine times out of ten no one on the internet can even agree on what morph is what.... you know I respect your opinion Levi, but to say this one is toxic and that one isnt toxic when you yourself are just speculating is irresponsible when your opinion on zoas is respected

[daniella3d]

NO they don't, most small zoanthids don't contain palytoxin. It's only some type of palythoas that contain it and I very much doubt those contain any palytoxin. I have tons of these in my tanks for years and I have been handling them very often without any gloves. I had spray in my face, eyes and can't remember where else and never felt a thing.

I never used gloves an handle any of the zoanthids and palythoas in my tank and I am pretty sure none of them contain palytoxin.

Those that were ever found to contain palytoxin are the ugly brown paly that most of us want to get rid of and come as hitchicker.


I don't think it matters what one it is, they all give off a toxin when there being handled. I learned the hard way as well when handling them. Also if you are fragging out of the tank wear glasses. I use powder free throw away gloves as well.:wink:

[The Guy]

so he was imagining his symptoms and the doctor was wrong?


why do some people find it necessary to try and identify which ones are toxic and which ones are not?.....is it not a good thing just for all reefers in general to handle ALL zoanthus species with caution, so there is no second guessing?....especially when nine times out of ten no one on the internet can even agree on what morph is what.... you know I respect your opinion Levi, but to say this one is toxic and that one isnt toxic when you yourself are just speculating is irresponsible when your opinion on zoas is respected
Exactly, in my statement I said " I don't THINK it matters" so I consider that they are all capable of toxin stinging, so that's why I suggest wearing the gloves and glasses, why chance it. Also some people could be more skin sensitive than others.

[daniella3d]

They don't sting and they don't bite either. They produce mucus when upset and they can spray water quite far when taken out of the water. They don't have any eyes, but they seem to be expert at spraying that water in the eyes of the person who is handling them. I have been sprayed a few times, rinsed the eyes right away and did not have any effect.

On the other end, I am getting an allergic skin reaction when I touch certains coral like frogspawn and hammer. Looks like the same type of pimples that one gets when touching poison oak and it itch like crazy.

A lot of things can cause an allergic reaction in our aquariums.


Exactly, in my statement I said " I don't THINK it matters" so I consider that they are all capable of toxin stinging, so that's why I suggest wearing the gloves and glasses. Also some people could be more skin sensitive than others as well.

[The Guy]

They don't sting and they don't bite either. They produce mucus when upset and they can spray water quite far when taken out of the water. They don't have any eyes, but they seem to be expert at spraying that water in the eyes of the person who is handling them. I have been sprayed a few times, rinsed the eyes right away and did not have any effect.

On the other end, I am getting an allergic skin reaction when I touch certains coral like frogspawn and hammer. Looks like the same type of pimples that one gets when touching poison oak and it itch like crazy.

A lot of things can cause an allergic reaction in our aquariums.
So I guess stinging was not the right word to use, my "point" is why not be safe and wear the gloves and or the glasses when handling corals to avoid the skin discomfort. It's your skin you decide. :razz:

[jason604]

Zoas containing palytoxin is more than real. Believe it or not but its not a certain type of zoas that contain palytoxin but it depends on each head/polyp. Most head of a colony or whatever size do not contain the toxin but it may be just 1 or 2 head within that group that may contain palytoxin. And the comment that "paly"toxin only Is in palys is totally wrong. There are a few Marine species that contain it and not only are they corals. They are also contained in some types of anemone and even a crab that's called(demania reynaudii). There's been documents of a person eating this crab and died of palytoxin poisoning. So this is type of toxin in zoas is more than just real and no chances should be made that(oooh my zoas are not poisonous and I don't need to be careful)

[toytech]

I think the real moral of the story is don't drink the water ! Corals produce all kinds of things when ticked off and the last thing you want to do is ingest them . They have other toxins that you can have a reaction too and its not just zoas and palys .

[reefwars]

something seems odd here.....



i find it odd that a doctor will agree with you with no further tests?

i also find it odd that he said you were poisoned but showed you no proof id love to see what the doctor wrote for you if he wrote or did anything at all besides:

"I went to my doctor and he said I might have gotten slightly poisoned by ingesting the poison. He then told me If I were to ingest a higher amount I would only have had 90mins to get treated at the hospital ori would have died!!! Next time I'm not taking any chances with these things and will go to the hospital ASAP! Be careful with your zoas guys!!, don't take any risk and remember the most beautiful things in life can be the most deadly!"

if someone goes to a dotor showing symptoms of poisoning more than likely unless its a basement doctor they are going to push for further tests or to go to a facility who can accomodate the tests needed to verify the poison(toxin)

how does the doctor know it isnt contagious, lethal or something that could be viral? does the doctor have any info at all on the subject any references or experience with the toxin? highly doubt it which is all the more reason to suggest seeing someone more suited to this type of work.

werent you concerned? didnt you push for solid answers, maybe go to a lab and get tested?



the toxin in doses large enough to kill or hurt us is in P. heliodiscus or P. toxica which is still in circulation but p. toxica is no longer allowed to be collected, not sure if p.heliodiscus is or not but i imagine it is.

we are still unsure if any more species have it but the family is too large to tell for sure.

yes i agree always wear gloves fact is anything marine is foreign to our bodies not just toxin but theres other risks as well since we do not know alot about some of these wide spread species.

saying that my " zoas " have palytoxin will need to do much better....

and for the comment above about what does it matter well it matters.

why?


how can we limit collections, handling and restrictions on species if we cant weed out the serious, fake or mild experiences? how can we prepare general hospitals and doctors of such toxins if they can not be narrowed down? how can we do research on the toxic species if we do not know what they are?

yes it is hard to tell a zoanthus gigantus from a zoanthus sociatus or palythoas sp. or protopaly but its not impossible and there are distinct differences in the species like any other.


over all when dealing with marine animals all precautions shjould be taken after all we know very little about much of these animals.


glad your ok but i do not think palytoxin was the cause in this case , more probable is an allergic reaction or some other reaction.


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0018235#pone-0018235-t003



cheers

[Zoaelite]

so he was imagining his symptoms and the doctor was wrong?


why do some people find it necessary to try and identify which ones are toxic and which ones are not?.....is it not a good thing just for all reefers in general to handle ALL zoanthus species with caution, so there is no second guessing?....especially when nine times out of ten no one on the internet can even agree on what morph is what.... you know I respect your opinion Levi, but to say this one is toxic and that one isnt toxic when you yourself are just speculating is irresponsible when your opinion on zoas is respected

Brought you back from the dead did I :razz:?

Please note, at no time am I downplaying the need for protective gear when handling these species. Do some of these organisms contain the "Palytoxin" that ever one claims to be poisoned by? Yes.

Do all of them contain the toxin? No.

My point is this; there is a multitude of toxic compounds produced by ANY of the Cnidarians we keep in our tank take caution when handling or fragging any of these species.

I'm just very frustrated because I continuously see every Joe Blow and their dog posting how they almost just died from touching a coral that in reality doesn't contain the toxin they are so claiming. I'm a scientist, I have a tough time accepting things without some sort of proof. Please take a read through the PLOS article I posted, the conclusion is very relevant to your opinion at the moment.

I see two out comes from people reading these threads; 1) Protect myself because this $hit is scary and could kill me BUT 2) Well if the other 400+ people posted that they were fine after a day of be poisoned hey this stuff isn't all that bad.

In REALITY its this second opinion that scares me to the bone, the guy who orally inhaled the toxin was on corticosteroids for over 5 months after the incident and he still wasn't getting better. You don't get poisoned by this stuff and wake up the next day right as rain, its the second most toxin non peptide substance on the planet.

To give you an idea, the MOST venomous snake toxin on the planet belongs to the sea snake Hydrophis Belcheri, its LD50 is 0.025 mg/kg. Palytoxin is about 80X more toxic than this (LD50 of 0.0003 mg/ kg), one gram of the substance can kill approximately 170 Million mice.

OP in no way am I down playing your situation, I just find it difficult to believe as I'm an overly skeptical duch3 bag :razz:.

Zoas containing palytoxin is more than real. Believe it or not but its not a certain type of zoas that contain palytoxin but it depends on each head/polyp. Most head of a colony or whatever size do not contain the toxin but it may be just 1 or 2 head within that group that may contain palytoxin. And the comment that "paly"toxin only Is in palys is totally wrong. There are a few Marine species that contain it and not only are they corals. They are also contained in some types of anemone and even a crab that's called(demania reynaudii). There's been documents of a person eating this crab and died of palytoxin poisoning. So this is type of toxin in zoas is more than just real and no chances should be made that(oooh my zoas are not poisonous and I don't need to be careful)

What your talking about is the act of bio-accumulation, some creatures are resistant to these toxins and actually ingest them to protect themselves. The rest of your statement perplexes me though, would you be so kind to post the source for this information.

Believe it or not but its not a certain type of zoas that contain palytoxin but it depends on each head/polyp. Most head of a colony or whatever size do not contain the toxin but it may be just 1 or 2 head within that group that may contain palytoxin. And the comment that "paly"toxin only Is in palys is totally wrong

I've posted a peer reviewed journal article which says otherwise, I would love to read your article though.

I think the real moral of the story is don't drink the water ! Corals produce all kinds of things when ticked off and the last thing you want to do is ingest them . They have other toxins that you can have a reaction too and its not just zoas and palys .

^ Thank you, this is a statement I can really agree with.

[reefwars]

funny we posted the same article lol

[Zoaelite]

At the same time, about the same thing :razz:.

VOOOODOOO MAGIC!

[jason604]

I made this thread to share my first time experience with zoa's toxins. I've seen for myself and heard of many people not use any protection at all while handling them and fragging them. From making this thread i want people to learn more and to take extreme precautions with this hobby and its danger.... Not for some individuals saying that im faking this **** or that i have a basement doctor... So retarded... Think what u want but dont say it like theres no problem with zoas and to just do w.e with them because theres no harm... Who knows mybe theres someone out there that may have prevented killing themselves by reading this?

[Proteus]

I'm not doubting you at all. I have handled lots of corals bare hands without issue. To me it's like peanut butter. Some people are affected some not.
In my other hobby (horticulture) there's a product called neem oil. Completely natural aids in eraticating spider mites. For years I used this product with no affect but now I have to where a filter mask and have lots of ventilation or no more breathing.

I think that some things affect people in different ways and your body can change to particular substances

[Dearth]

I made this thread to share my first time experience with zoa's toxins. I've seen for myself and heard of many people not use any protection at all while handling them and fragging them. From making this thread i want people to learn more and to take extreme precautions with this hobby and its danger.... Not for some individuals saying that im faking this **** or that i have a basement doctor... So retarded... Think what u want but say it like theres no problem with zoas and to just do w.e with them because theres no harm... Who knows mybe theres someone out there that may have prevented killing themselves by reading this?

One thing you will learn is that no matter what forum you go to in the salt water world is that you will get every kind of reply under the sun especially when corals and toxins/poisons are involved. Everybody reacts differently to certain things I've handled and used sulferic acid(30%)for yrs in my job bare handed and all it does is tickle me yet I get a drop of hydrochloride acid(50%) on me it hurts immediately and is very painful yet one of my coworkers is the opposite he can handle hydrochloride acid(50%)no problem at all yet sulferic acid(30%) burns him right away.

Don't take it personally everybody has a different take on corals and their potential to be dangerous to handle some people are never affected by it others have reactions that can be mild to life threatening it could be the coral or a substance on it or even the rock/peg its attached to. It's always better to be safe than sorry

[fishytime]

Brought you back from the dead did I :razz:?
I'm just very frustrated because I continuously see every Joe Blow and their dog posting how they almost just died from touching a coral that in reality doesn't contain the toxin they are so claiming. I'm a scientist, I have a tough time accepting things without some sort of proof. Please take a read through the PLOS article I posted, the conclusion is very relevant to your opinion at the moment.

nope Ive always been here lurking

I DID read the article and in his conclusions he clearly says, some species are highly toxic, some species are weakly toxic and some species are not toxic at all....to me I dont really care how many thousands of mice zoa or paly X could kill,....I care about the well being of my fellow reefers (hence the reason I started the "Marine Aquarium Cautions" thread) and to me, being a LFS employee for 5 years, that means just giving a broad spectrum warning to people about ALL zoanthids.... I couldnt tell anyone with 100% certainty which may or may not contain deadly level of the toxin so I will not accept the responsibility of claiming that I do know....thats what irked me about your statement....you have basically said that the zoas that the OP posted pics of "do not contain the toxin".... do you know with 100% certainty that this is true?....because thats a lot of responsibility for a statement that hundreds of people will read.....

[jason604]

nope Ive always been here lurking

I DID read the article and in his conclusions he clearly says, some species are highly toxic, some species are weakly toxic and some species are not toxic at all....to me I dont really care how many thousands of mice zoa or paly X could kill,....I care about the well being of my fellow reefers (hence the reason I started the "Marine Aquarium Cautions" thread) and to me, being a LFS employee for 5 years, that means just giving a broad spectrum warning to people about ALL zoanthids.... I couldnt tell anyone with 100% certainty which may or may not contain deadly level of the toxin so I will not accept the responsibility of claiming that I do know....thats what irked me about your statement....you have basically said that the zoas that the OP posted pics of "do not contain the toxin".... do you know with 100% certainty that this is true?....because thats a lot of responsibility for a statement that hundreds of people will read.....

+1

[canadianbudz604]

Many doctors here in the lower mainland are not very good. Most of them want you in and out as fast as possible no matter what. This could be the reason why they didnt take more care of Jason604. They aren't basement doctors though. Just money hungry with a phd. I'm no scientist but all this stuff that comes out of the ocean could contain poisons or toxins or something that certain people react to differently. Jason604 ur not the first person to get sick from zoas, so obviously they have something in them that makes certain people sick. Maybe not all of them. But some do. Danielle3d, I too get a "sting?" From frogspawns. But I watch my brother move all sorts of stuff and no problems. Jason604 I guess you will be wearing gloves next time huh?

[11purewater]

OP are you able to get a reaction from just smelling the tank water or handling live rock or other corals,(sneezing or rash).Those zoa's have been readily available for many years and have been handled by the vendor and customers alike without issue.some people have a hypersensitivety to salt water tanks and it's residents no matter what, unfortunately ,and you may be one of them.:sad:

[daniella3d]

No gloves for me :) I just put cortisone cream and be done with it. It takes a few days and it's gone. I would not be able to use gloves as my aquarium is 24" deep and most of the time I get water all the way to my armpit. I would need a space suit.

Thing is when I first got into contact with poison oak I was full of pimples and was going nuts with the itch. Second time there was nearly nothing...third time only one pimple, and now nothing. With the aquarium I hope it's going to be the same thing and go away with time.

I do beleive that most of the palytoxin stories that we hear in these forums are actually allergic reaction to something else in the aquarium, especially when people read about palytoxin and they manipulate those corals knowing about it still and then start to feel the symptoms.


mainland Danielle3d, I too get a "sting?" From frogspawns. But I watch my brother move all sorts of stuff and no problems. Jason604 I guess you will be wearing gloves next time huh?

[jason604]

OP are you able to get a reaction from just smelling the tank water or handling live rock or other corals,(sneezing or rash).Those zoa's have been readily available for many years and have been handled by the vendor and customers alike without issue.some people have a hypersensitivety to salt water tanks and it's residents no matter what, unfortunately ,and you may be one of them.:sad:

Nope I'm perfectly fine with saltwater. I actually drank quite a bit while acclimating for the first time n I was fine just a long salty after taste lol. I touched the water in my tank all the time with no gloves. The zoa incident I had was without touching anything else but the zoas with tiny bit of the water in its bag directly with my gloves then touch the tip of the tubing I used to acclimate n put my mouth stupidly on it.

[11purewater]

I hope it was a one off event,only one way too find out!get the antihistamines ready,and quit drinking the tank water!There's some nasty things happening in there when the light go out!:biggrin:

[Madreefer]

Yet again another newbie gets an owwie when touching a coral. :biggrin:

This topic comes up quite often. If people actually clicked on some of the stickies on the site when they say they've done so much research on the hobby we wouldn't have to argue about this issue every few months. Better to build on to that thread than creating a bunch of different threads.

[canadianbudz604]

Don't put ur lips on foreign items lol

[jason604]

You should get yourself one of these too...great little device and pretty darn cheap.

http://innovative-marine.com/auqa-gadget/accu-drip.html

No more "sucking" for siphon to drip acclimate.

where can i buy this thing? i hate suckign on the tube lol

[asylumdown]

I'd have to agree with Levi on this. Mostly because I would never try to get in to a debate about whether you should or shouldn't take general precautions against unknown health hazards in your tank. It's usually where threads on 'I was Paly-Poisoned' end up going. I think it's an obvious common sense thing to say and do, but more importantly taking the conversation there is a red herring logical fallacy in the context of specific cases of suspected paly-poisoning.

The OP of this thread wasn't talking about a mysterious ill brought about by some unknown in a tank that may or may not have possibly been allergies. No, there was a very specific claim made about a very specific poison, with photographs of the 'accused' species provided for scrutiny, therefore I think it's completely fair and valid to address that claim specifically. Contesting that there was in fact any poisoning at all does not mean that someone is suggesting care need not be taken with their livestock and personal health, nor is it a personal attack on the person making the claim, which is how I see a lot of people interpreting such criticism, it's simply contesting that there was any poisoning in the first place based on the specifics of the claim.

While an expert does have some responsibility to not offer advice that could lead to harm, I think they also have a responsibility to challenge what are in fact very serious claims about something they care about when the evidence supporting that claim is weak or contradictory. In the absence of formal, peer reviewed hobby 'journals', forums have become the number 1 source of disseminated information on this trade. You do a search for just about anything aquarium related and the first page of google results will be links to RC, Canreef, and all the other major forum boards, so I think the 'experts' have a responsibility to make sure the best information is out there to be found. Paly-toxin has become something of a hobby boogeyman, and leaving the myriad claims of poisoning unchallenged when in fact there very likely has only been a few 'true' cases presents the impression to a newbie/lay-person that this hobby is much more dangerous than it is, gives a bad name to a whole family of animals that are for the most part model tank denizens, and, as Levi mentioned, waters down the real risks.

Stating in bold letters that something in your tank nearly killed you is an extraordinary claim, and should be backed up with extraordinary evidence. Paly-poisoning is an incredibly severe, acute, and specific condition caused by a specific agent, and it doesn't appear that any of those agents were present here. It is also toxic in such vanishingly small quanitites that it's hard to believe that there is a such thing as being just a 'little poisoned' when it comes to paly-toxin. That's like saying there's such a thing as being a 'little poisoned' by ricin, or cobra venom. It is not a bee sting. The OP also made several comments that I think suggested an alternative and far more likely cause of the reaction. I am in no way suggesting that experience wasn't 'real' or valid, just that palytoxin probably wasn't the cause.

Should everyone take general precautions when handling livestock in their tank - yes. Does that fact elevate all claims of play-toxin above the point of scrutiny and (constructive) criticism - no.

[slakker]

Well stated asylumdown... whether the OP did or did not get paly or zoa poisoned is quite irrelevant as there simply isn't enough evidence to show cause and effect. I don't doubt the OP was actually ill, but the diagnosis is simply a anecdotal correlation.

However, the fact that it can happen doesn't change the need for proper care and methods in handling these corals.