Ich??

[molybdenumman]

I have finally recovered my reef tank from a long and arduous battle with hair algae. (Alkalinity and Ca way too low) I had to boost my Ca levels with some turbo calcium which finally got her settled down. Since that time, ~1 week ago, my skunk clown, tomato clown, flame angel and bicolour basslet have been displaying what I assume is Ich (white spots all about their bodies). My yellow tang, false perc and banggai show no signs.

How do I go about treating these guys? I don't have access to a quarantine tank.

MoMan

[Scavenger]

If you have confirmed you have an ich issue in your tank, read up as much as you can on it. Remember "know thy enemy"

My favorite cure is as follows.

Head on down to your local supermarket and pick up a bottle of garlic extract for about 5 bucks. Soak your fishes favorite food in the extract. My 2 favorites are marine flake and nori. They just soak up the extract very well. I use a plastic lid to place food on and then pour the extract on it. After food has absorbed the extract dip it into the tank. The extract is also a hell of a lot easier than spending your day crushing garlic cloves

Do this every day and continue to do so for a period of about 6-8 weeks after (and I repeat) after you last see any signs of ich on your fish. Ich has a life cycle of around 28 days (I believe) and your goal is to completely eliminate it from your tank. Continuing the treatment for double the life cycle increases your odds of eradicating the pest.

Also changing things around in your tank may have stressed your fish and this may be the original source of the outbreak. Ich has a hard time attaching to a healthy happy fish as their defenses are in top shape.
Keep your fish at the best health you can and watch for a slip in appetite.
If your fish refuses to accept medicated food, perhaps a fresh water dip may be in order.

As I stated when I opened, this is my favorite method. Other more knowledgeable folks here may have different or better options for you.

[Bob I]

You might want to increase your knowledge by reading all five of the articles to which I will supply a link.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm

[bulletsworld]

Garlic does not cure ich. It only helps the fish immune system, you will still have ich in your tank.

Knowing your enemy is the key, I agree. Understanding the life cycle of parasite is crucial.

Other forums to check out are: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=3afc9eb37f0dc3aa336e407944c97236&threadid=167243

and articles:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

www.reefcentral.com has a great forums on disease and different kinds.

Let the force be with ya!

[Aquattro]

Not to get technical and all, but I have found that using garlic makes white spots on fish go away. This equals good. Try garlic, you'll like it. :razz:

[Scavenger]

Garlic does not cure ich. It only helps the fish immune system, you will still have ich in your tank.




True, I should have been more specific. I read up on this cure before using it. Apart from various forum users saying "use garlic" I read a few articles I found by Googling. This is a layman's summary of what I read from a couple of sources.

Apparently, after ingesting the garlic, the fish excretes it from it's skin , this is unappealing to the ich and it falls off. Also new ich will not attach to the unappealing skin. If the ich doesn't find a suitable host it dies. After time if all goes well all the ich in the tank dies.

As I said this is a summary and I can't vouch for the scientific merit of this knowledge. It made sense to me at the time and worked well for me. I'm not a scientist and if this information is wrong please correct it. We all know there is erroneous information all over the internet.

[bulletsworld]

Not to get technical and all, but I have found that using garlic makes white spots on fish go away. This equals good. Try garlic, you'll like it. :razz:

yeah if you knew about the life cycle of the parasite you would know that the ich falls of the fish regardless of what you soak the food in within 3-7days.

The life cycle of C. irritans (Ich)

C. irritans has a four stage life cycle. The parasitic stage (theronts) is the one that results in the appearance of white spots all over the fish. The theronts burrow under the skin where they feed on body fluids and tissue debris. When the theronts first infect the fish they are small but grow as they feed and so the white spots are initially small but get larger as they mature. Once mature, they drop off the fish and sink/swim down to the substrate where they encyst and begin to reproduce. In this stage they are called tomonts. After a number of days in which the tomonts divide, the cyst ruptures, releasing the tomites. Tomites may differentiate into theronts, the infective stage, which actively seek a host to reinfect.
The life cycle of C. irritans

C. irritans has a four stage life cycle, as shown in Figure 1. The parasitic stage (theronts) is the one that results in the appearance of white spots all over the fish. The theronts burrow under the skin where they feed on body fluids and tissue debris. When the theronts first infect the fish they are small but grow as they feed and so the white spots are initially small but get larger as they mature. Once mature, they drop off the fish and sink/swim down to the substrate where they encyst and begin to reproduce. In this stage they are called tomonts. After a number of days in which the tomonts divide, the cyst ruptures, releasing the tomites. Tomites may differentiate into theronts, the infective stage, which actively seek a host to reinfect.

[Aquattro]

Ken, I think, at least for myself, that the point is to remove the white dots from my fish. The life cycle of a parasite is interesting and all, but I just want the spots off my fish.
When I treated my tang for a heavy infestation of white spots, I chose garlic. I didn't believe in it, but thought what the heck. Well, the spots went away and have not returned in 18 months. So if they've been hiding in my tank for that long, they can stay. My fish are happy (other than bad breath issues) and I'm happy that the spots are gone. You can add all the science and background info you want to that, but in the end, garlic made spots go away.

[Aquattro]

Tomites may differentiate into theronts, the infective stage, which actively seek a host to reinfect.

And if you knew about garlic, you'd know this is the part that doesn't happen. It worked for me, it worked for many othrs, and is the treatment I will continue to recommend. You, of course, can choose to not use it.

[Scavenger]

but in the end, garlic made spots go away.

Exactly! That is all I really wanted to share. Maybe I should have just left it there. :rolleyes:

[molybdenumman]

Is the garlic going to affect anything else in my tank (i.e. corals and inverts)?

[Aquattro]

Is the garlic going to affect anything else in my tank (i.e. corals and inverts)?

Nope. Nothing was affected at all. Many people feed garlic regularly as a preventative measure.

[bulletsworld]

You must of got the SUPER garlic then! :lol: Garlic I do agree helps & is definitely good to help boost the fish immunity.. I agree…try. I use myself. But it’s no secret that "Garlic" DOES NOT CURE ich. :lol: Tell that to all the people that lost fish to ich infestations & tried garlic ONLY. :lol: I think in this case since molybdenumman has no QT this is the ONLY option to try…the garlic. Also Selcon is good (vitamins).

There is only two methods to CURE ich completely. Copper or Hyposalinity. Neither method can be used in the presence of elasmobranchs (sharks and rays) or invertebrates and so treatment must be performed in a quarantine or hospital tank. So again in this case it’s not an option with no QT for molybdenumman.

Garlic is good to help boost immunity to the fish, try garlic for yourself when you have a cold, works awesome to help you fight it. But again it doesn’t cure you or your fish. Fish can claim partial or full immunity. Which has already happened in molybdenumman tank since only skunk clown, tomato clown, flame angel and bicolour basslet shows signs of ich but the yellow tang, false perc and banggai show no signs.

Just to keep in mind, the ich grows bigger & the cysts will fall off the fish between 3-7 days regardless if you soak food in garlic. Which to some will appear that the ich as completely gone. In long term sensitive or ich prone fish like coral beautys, powder blue tangs, porcupine puffers, boxfish, cowfish & filefish or any new fish added to an already infected tank under heavy infestations, I'm afraid the wonder garlic will not save the day and will result in the demise of the fish.

But since that’s your only option then go with garlic and don’t add any new additions like sensitive fish as listed above.

Best of luck molybdenumman.

[EmilyB]

Garlic isn't going to be much help if the tank conditions are crappy, no. :wink: So some people simply won't be helped by it at their stage of the game.

I certainly have found it useful when adding a new fish to the reef however. Personally, whether ick is present or not is of no concern to me if it is not on my fish. :biggrin:

I keep big fish and lost that morbid fear of ick many years ago by learning to keep tanks in the best condition possible.

JMHO.

[BMW Rider]

Having had to deal with an ich outbreak myself recently, I will agree that garlic will not cure ich. I tried the easy "safe" methods for a couple of weeks with no success. I lost one fish and nearly another before I went the hyposalinity route. Fortunately for me the infection was in my FO tank, so I was able to do the treatment in it rather than having to move all the fish out. The only invertabrate that I had in there was a large common hermit crab which is currently living in the sump of my reef tank. The hyposalinity appears to be working, there have been no ich for the last five weeks. Friday will be the six week mark for the treatment, after which I will be raising the salinity back to normal. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that it has been erradicated.

The thing that I found hard to understand was the fact that the last fish I had added to the tank was over nine months prior to the first signs of the outbreak. I now have a quarantine tank and will be using it for EVERY fish that goes into any of my tanks, and hyposalinity will be the order of the day in it. I plan to continue using garlic as well as an ongoing preventitive measure.

Lesson learned the hard way.

[Beverly]

Apparently, after ingesting the garlic, the fish excretes it from it's skin , this is unappealing to the ich and it falls off. Also new ich will not attach to the unappealing skin. If the ich doesn't find a suitable host it dies. After time if all goes well all the ich in the tank dies.

I have used garlic to keep the ich from reattaching to the fish, but I used MEGA doses of it soaked overnight on their favourite food to do so.

Garlic will not make the ich spots go drop off the fish though. Not even copper will do that. The ich drops off the fish naturally at a certain stage in its life cycle. Then there will be a period of a week or two or three where there are not ich spots on the fish. That does NOT mean the ich is gone. It only means that the ich is in a different stage of its life and is getting ready to reinfect the fish.

During the time there are no ich spots on the fish, continue to feed food soaked in MEGA doses of garlic so the fish are good and stinky and not at all palatable for the soon to attach ich. I used Garlic Xtreme and lots of it, baby :cool:

Use garlic for 6 weeks to be sure the ich has all died and not there to reinfect the fish.

[Bob I]

[quote=Scavenger] Garlic Xtreme and lots of it, baby :cool:

Use garlic for 6 weeks to be sure the ich has all died and not there to reinfect the fish.

Is Garlic Xtreme something one gets at a LFS :question: The reason I ask is because I have two True Percs I purchased last month, which are in quarantine. They of course have ich, and are currently under treatment with KickIch, as I want to see if it will work when used correctly for the right amount of time. They are not terribly bothered, and continue to eat well. I would like to try garlic in conjunction with the medicine.
I really need to speed treatment as the tank is upstairs in my townhouse where we have heat problems in the Summer. If it does not work, I will have to move the tank downstairs soon to get away from that problem.

[bulletsworld]

Yup, Garlic Xtreme is sold at your LFS. When I was in Calgary there I know Big Al's sells it but not sure if Wai's or the others LFS did or not. Its about $10 a bottle.

[bulletsworld]

Keep us posted with the treatment with KickIch. I know me and Beverly tried KickIch & both had no success. In the end we both ended up using Hyposalinity. For myself after I was finished treatment with KickIch, my ich came back even stronger a month later. :eek:

Also I was in PJ Pets down here in Edmonton. They claim they use KickIch but as I always see after there 2 week QT (there claimer that fish are sold healthy there, no refund) The fish are just covered in ich. I'm waiting for their so called KickIch treatment to finish so I can help & treat the poor little puffer I want, thats if it's not to late. :sad:

Keep posted, perhaps you will have better success.

[Bob I]

I actually used a spare hour before going to work to move the tank downstairs. This will allow me to continue treatment ad infinitum, as it is now in a semi-permanent spot.
In my previous battle I used the hyposalinity method with no success, as I lost both fish. It can't hurt to continue with KickIch for the full length of the teatment because the fish are continuing to be in good health except for the ich. :eek:

[Scavenger]

Maybe one natural helper you may concider in your ich battle is adding some cleaner shrimp and or neon gobies if your tank conditions allow it.
I'm sure this wouldn't be a complete fix of your trouble but it would probably help.

[Bob I]

Maybe one natural helper you may concider in your ich battle is adding some cleaner shrimp and or neon gobies if your tank conditions allow it.
I'm sure this wouldn't be a complete fix of your trouble but it would probably help.

Actually not. My readings indicate that Cleaner Shrimp have no effect on ich. That was verified during my last battle. :sad:

[bulletsworld]

Maybe one natural helper you may concider in your ich battle is adding some cleaner shrimp and or neon gobies if your tank conditions allow it.
I'm sure this wouldn't be a complete fix of your trouble but it would probably help.

I totally agree with scavenger. No product on the market gets rid of the ich actually on the fish. The cleaner shrimp & neon gobies (known here as the cleaner wrasse) are the only thing to help relief the ich ON the fish. Although my cleaner was a ich picking off machine, the shrimp favoured certain fish, from my own experience anyway.

Hyposalinity is tricky. Has to measured with a refractmeter only to properly maintain salinity at 1.09 and kept at that level with no fluctuations for 30-40days with main tank empty (of fish) for this time as well. Keeping in mind water evaporation, all the water chemistry you go through during this process of the P.H dropping after the salinity drop pasts 1.16 & the encounter when algae grows & you try to remove it (ammonia spike) or over populating occurs (ammonia spike) or water changes are not kept up (nitrate rises fast & ammonia spike). Long process & stressful at first but worth it in the end. Tank has to be monitored everyday & recorded everyday to notice changes. I have found myself if salinity goes up past 1.09 then you have to start all over again as ich has show me that it can survive. Patience needed for this method.

Only other method besides that that i have found is copper. EEK!

Are you sure you have ich? Check out these for other possible known diseases. Brookynella or Amyloodinium.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/brooklynella.html

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/amyloodinium.html

And there treatments:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/treatments.html

[DOO-E]

Sorry to be so late but i wanted to see if this would work
My coral beauty came down with ich because of the ride home (1.5 hour trip). She didnt get it really bad just one day when she was constinaly. I let it pass with no medication because i was afraid that anything might kill the corals. Beauty my angel wasnt in any pain just a little irritation but she came over it in 2 weeks with no medications just regualr feedings of frozen mysis shrimp. I am now glad to say that beauty is fully healed and an active member of my aquarium.

[Scavenger]

The cleaner shrimp & neon gobies (known here as the cleaner wrasse) are the only thing to help relief the ich ON the fish. Although my cleaner was a ich picking off machine, the shrimp favoured certain fish, from my own experience anyway.



Actually a neon gobie and cleaner wrasse are 2 different fish. I suggest the gobie because it is a cleaner fish but not an obligatory parasite eater. It will also eat other food. Also, I've read the cleaner wrasse is hard to keep alive compared to the gobie. Is this because they starve when all parasites are off fish???? I don't know. The gobies only have a 1-1.5year life span but according to my reading are very easy to breed in an aquarium and a large number of sold gobies are tank raised.

But I believe for each ich pod (can't remember real name) that is picked off a fish, that is one less ich that will drop off and reproduce in the substrate. If all ich pods get picked off and eaten then the ich has run out of breeding stock. This makes sense to me. Or did I miss something?? :lol:

[bulletsworld]

You know what I think your right. I guess I took the LFS (big Al's) word for it when he told me. But could be. I had another person tell me there is a difference to so you gotta be right.

Yeah I here the wrasser dont live long either, not really sure why. But mind eats brime shrimp so maybe thats the difference if the others only eat parasites. That I am not sure. Minds still alive so can't tell ya. :lol:

[Beverly]

Is Garlic Xtreme something one gets at a LFS :question: The reason I ask is because I have two True Percs I purchased last month, which are in quarantine. They of course have ich, and are currently under treatment with KickIch, as I want to see if it will work when used correctly for the right amount of time. They are not terribly bothered, and continue to eat well. I would like to try garlic in conjunction with the medicine.

Kick Ick is supposed to be reef safe, which is why I used it, but it didn't work worth a darn :evil: Was like flushing $50 down the toilet twice :eek: :evil: I used it as directed and for longer than directed, too, due to the long life cycle of ich.

boB, the fish won't be terribly bothered by the first round of ich because there are only a few of them on the fish. But wait 2-3 weeks for the new batch to be ready to latch onto your fish. By that time, there will be many, many more little ichs that will want to attach. That's when the fish get really sick :frown:

Wish I could give you a fool proof, easy method of attack against ich. All I know is that I used LOTS of garlic on their food for 3 weeks in the display tank, then when they showed no signs of ich, I moved them to QT for 6 weeks to make sure the ich was out of the display tank. Kept feeding them LOTS of garlic with their food while in QT as well.

Garlic Xtreme should be available at some lfs. I'd phone around to find out which ones stock the stuff before driving all over town.

Good luck :smile:

[Quagmire]

So far I've been lucky I've only had to deal with FW Ich.My fingers are crossed but I sure its only a matter of time.What would happen if you didnt use any meds. or garlic and just waited for the Ich to fall off, then moved the fish to a different tank?Would this work or is it too much to hope that all the Ich would be off the fish at the same time?

[Bob I]

A final update is in order. After the tank move the fish looked far worse. Whatever the disease was it did not act like ich. I then went away for the weekend as I always do in summer. Upon returning both fish were found dead. I will now move the tank back upstairs and leave it fallow for the next few months. I will have another shot at it in the Fall. :mad: