Long term success without carbon dosing

[reeferfulton]

Need some help here .

I have had my tank setup now for 2 months . I have had 5 fish in there now for about 2 weeks .

My nitrates with (elos kit) have been undetectable and still measuring .02 phosphates with the hanna checker.

I have purchased a full setup to run Biopellets , and also have a reactor and GFO on standby as well.

My questions are .

1.IF you Do carbon dose ( vodka , vinegar , biopellets ) when did you start and why ? nitrates where creeping up on you ?

2. Anyone running a lps/sps reef with fish medium stocked long term without any sort of carbon dosing . ? If so what levels of Nitrate are you happy with

feedback would be great .

Seems from the reading I do I am finding alot of people are running biopellets without really knowing why .Thus i am asking what people are doing

thanks

[kien]

I run BioPellets to reduce my nitrates because I have a fairly high bioload in my 150g. Without the pellets my nitrates would hover around 5-10. With the pellets my nitrates are undetectable. Probably not zero, but undetectable by any test kits that I have.

Also, I have always run GFO in conjunction with biopellets. GFO to reduce phosphates because BioPellets don't really handle phosphates all that well.

[Reef Pilot]

There was a recent thread about this same subject. And as was said there "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", or something like that.

I would wait until you have some measurable nitrates and see phosphate climb a bit higher, before starting bio pellets or GFO.

And this is coming from someone who is running bio pellets and GFO. But I have a very mature tank, and used to have high both. But I would not do it, until I have exhausted all other good tank husbandry efforts. Dosing some MB7 early, though, would be good, to ensure sufficient beneficial bacteria, and help your live rock to do its job.

[ScubaSteve]

I kept an SPS tank thriving for a couple of years without any carbon dosing and only a ****ty skimmer. Water changes should be your go to method for water quality. Even now as I carbon dose and run GFO I do weekly 15-20% water changes.

[reeferfulton]

I kept an SPS tank thriving for a couple of years without any carbon dosing and only a ****ty skimmer. Water changes should be your go to method for water quality. Even now as I carbon dose and run GFO I do weekly 15-20% water changes.

Ok well thats good to hear . I keep being told that i should start carbon dosing now while my nitrates and phosphates are still low . With the theorey of do it now or play catch up later .

What eventually caused you to start carbon dosing ? what changed .
And did your start with the carbon dosing and then discover that you still had phosphates and then started GFO ?

thanks

Guess maybe i jumped the gun on buying a reactor and pump and pellets ..I was just under the thought of start now or regret later

[reefermadness]

start the pellets....whats the down side. You can feed more and get more fish....

[i have crabs]

All this talk about water changes, bio pellets and cleaning your skimmer cup sound like fads im gonna skip, i feed heavy And my only problem is keeping enough calcium in the water cause eveything grows to fast

[Rice Reef]

start the pellets....whats the down side. You can feed more and get more fish....

+1

Every system is going to be different and every hobbyist is going to look at it slightly different (base on the amt of money one wishes to spend on this hobby and amt of time to look after their tank etc...), however for every action there is going to be a reaction and it will be based entirely in what you are wanting to achieve. I dont think there is a right or wrong answer ( to dose or not to dose carbon)... determine what you want to keep in the tank, how many fish you want to keep, whether you plan to feed often or not and how much you plan to do water change. If you do start to dose do so slowly and gradually build it up. If you are at an undetectable level why not keep it undetectable rather than to wait until all hell breaks loose and then do something about it? What do you want to achieve...to maintain an undetectable nitrate level or something close to that or being willing to tolerate an amt of nitrate?

If you choose not to then the advice given by others are also very valid... Feed less, have less fish, more frequent water changes or tolerate brown corals.

[ScubaSteve]

Ok well thats good to hear . I keep being told that i should start carbon dosing now while my nitrates and phosphates are still low . With the theorey of do it now or play catch up later .

What eventually caused you to start carbon dosing ? what changed .
And did your start with the carbon dosing and then discover that you still had phosphates and then started GFO ?

thanks

Guess maybe i jumped the gun on buying a reactor and pump and pellets ..I was just under the thought of start now or regret later

More my point was that you can successfully keep a reef quite healthy with just the fundamentals of reefing.

I went to carbon dosing (I use VSV + MB7) because:

1) I am a scientist and am constantly experimenting. I was curious. After trying a whole bunch of different things I found VSV to work the best for me.

2) Carbon dosing keeps the water on the cleaner side and gives me a bit of leeway in case I need to skip a water change. I run a business and am doing a PhD. My schedule is erratic to say the least; this lets me skip WCs if needs be.

3) I feed stupid amounts of food to my tank (like 1.5 to 2 cubes of mysis in a 50 gallon per day, plus a few krill for the mystery wrasse). I have several hungry mouths that belong to high-octane fish that need to be fed several times per day. On top of this I have a TON of coral (basically I keep the tank for the coral) and they tend to do better with higher feedings. Dosing keep water quality at top notch.

I started VSV after building a new tank a year and a half ago. I started after the transfer to keep the cycle to a minimum.

I prefer VSV (or vodka or vinegar) over biopellets, unless you add a recycle loop to your pellet reactor to control how much water you are processing. The problem with pellet reactors, especially on tanks less that ~180 gallons, is that they are essentially running at full throttle all the time. Many tanks had crashes from pellets when they first came out because no one realized this; you are basically starving the corals to death. Sure the corals looked great before they died, but you know so do human super models... and I wouldn't peg them as the epitome of health. The way to counteract this problem is to feed more. To me this seems silly as it's like driving your car with the gas pedal pinned while trying to slow down with your break pedal; not exactly efficient. The liquid carbon dosing methods let you dial in exactly how much needs to be dosed based on your tank requirements. If I feel the corals are being starved a bit, I back off; if the nitrates are climbing, I bump it up a bit. Can't do that with a pellet reactor unless you add a recycle loop to the reactor.

It's easier to start VSV when you have some nitrates so that you can watch the nitrates come down and dial in your dosing amount. You can start from the get go but you need to start with a small dose amount and then increase slightly as nitrates go up.

I'd start GFO right from the get go.

Just my two cents...:wink:

[reeferfulton]

thanks for your input .

Do you really think i should run the GFO right now . I was under the impression that for the carbon dosing methods to work you need to have phosphate and nitrate available in addition to the carbon dose to feed the bacteria .
That being said I have also read that there is usually phosphates left over even after nitrates are undetectable . which is why people run the GFO in addition .

IT seems like most mixed tanks incorporate some sort of carbon dosing so i am
likely going to have to start
I think of all the carbon dosing methods I will most likely try the pellets . People are having success with them , so why not me lol .

I think i am going to keep a real close eye on nitrates and phosphates over the next month . And will start my pellets off if i start to see any sort of rise in my indications .

thanks

[slakker]

I've had 3 tanks (simultaneously) in the last 5 years and NEVER carbon dosed. In my 72G, I've had success in LPS and softies, but never long term success with SPS... similarly with the 30G and 14G... so I just started with the bio pellets with my new 90G (upgraded the 72G)...

I think you can have success without carbon dosing, but like any technology, it a means to an ends and different people use different technologies to achieve the ends...

Heck I know a guy that still keeps a tank with nothing but water changes... no dosing, not kalk wasser, no kalk reactor, etc.. And he does alight...

[Son Of Skyline]

My tank is a little over 4 years old and at about the 3 year mark I started dosing vinegar and tried pellets. My algae all disappeared, and my corals became pale. I had to clean my pumps and plumbing twice as often because of the bacterial slime buildup. I could tell that all the inhabitants of the tank were stressed to some level. I stopped after 6 months and now everything seems much happier. Better PE, more "normal" algae growth, coral colors deepened again (some more brown but much happier looking), no more slime clogging up my plumbing..etc. I won't do carbon dosing again. My tank never needed it.

[asylumdown]

I would start bio-pellets now, if you plan on them being a part of your over-all tank strategy. Many of the cases of biopellets causing crazy cyano blooms (mine included) involved older tanks that were 'higher nutrient' starting pellets midstream. On my old 90 gallon, which was by no means an ULNS, I had cyano so badly you couldn't see the sand or rock a week after starting pellets. On my current tank, which has had pellets from the beginning and evolved from the start with them as a part of the system, I've never had that problem.

Also, I have no data to back this up, only personal experience from a single case (and an anecdote does not a rule make) - but I have a hypothesis that if you end up with a problem algae outbreak and then add pellets to try and control it, you're not going to have nearly as much success than if you start the pellets or some other carbon dosing regimen early and prevent the problem from happening in the first place. My logic behind this is that pellets can only suck nitrates from the water that is flowing through the reactor, while an established bed of algae has the entire surface area of your display tank to pull nutrients from the water column, so once an algae problem happens, they're going to be a better competitor for what does become available in the water than your biopellet reactor. I've never tried whole tank carbon dosing, but it probably doesn't apply in that case, but either way it's better to never let that problem develop in the first place.

The people who've had success with SPS and no carbon dosing long term have something else in their tanks dealing with the nutrients. Unless you do very frequent, very large water changes, that's never going to be sufficient to keep nitrates and phosphates down long term with a medium bio-load, so for the people who only do that and still have sparkling clean, algae free tanks, they likely also have very good live rock that denitrifies efficiently. You can try to cherry pick the best rock, but since you will never know what's really going on inside of it, you really have to rely on luck in choosing the best pieces if that's how you plan on dealing with nitrates long term. Bio-pellets or carbon dosing simply gives you more control over the process.

[asylumdown]

My tank is a little over 4 years old and at about the 3 year mark I started dosing vinegar and tried pellets. My algae all disappeared, and my corals became pale. I had to clean my pumps and plumbing twice as often because of the bacterial slime buildup. I could tell that all the inhabitants of the tank were stressed to some level. I stopped after 6 months and now everything seems much happier. Better PE, more "normal" algae growth, coral colors deepened again (some more brown but much happier looking), no more slime clogging up my plumbing..etc. I won't do carbon dosing again. My tank never needed it.

What you're describing is a pretty normal response to corals living in a low nutrient environment, it doesn't necessarily mean they're stressed. Some would argue that the darkening/browning of corals is also a symptom of stress. In reality, I think both conditions are simply different possible states along coral's range of possible adaptations, and what we think is 'best' comes down to personal taste. What you view as 'normal' algae growth might be nuisance levels to someone else. Changing the condition that a coral is adapted to will cause it stress, but they're very good at adapting to a wide variety of nutrient conditions given time (within reason). Whether you like 'deeper' colours and are ok with some brown and noticeable algae growth, or whether you like the more pastel 'zeo' look or don't want any algae growth at all comes down ultimately to personal taste.

In any case, having biopellets does not ultimately mean that you have to have an ULNS, controlling the amount of pellets you put in your reactor, or getting a recirculating reactor can allow you some control over the way your corals look.

[Son Of Skyline]

What you're describing is a pretty normal response to corals living in a low nutrient environment, it doesn't necessarily mean they're stressed. Some would argue that the darkening/browning of corals is also a symptom of stress.

You're right. The colour change in a coral could mean any number of things, good and bad. I know my tank and its inhabitants well though, and I know the difference between a "good" response and a "stress" response. This was a stress response. In all my years of reef keeping, carbon dosing is new, and IMO a fad. People never had a problem keeping sps before carbon dosing.

[kien]

In all my years of reef keeping, carbon dosing is new, and IMO a fad.

Out of curiosity, when does a fad become mainstream? I thought carbon dosing has been around for a while now? Is there a time limit?

[RuGlu6]

Need some help here .

I have had my tank setup now for 2 months . I have had 5 fish in there now for about 2 weeks .

My nitrates with (elos kit) have been undetectable and still measuring .02 phosphates with the hanna checker.

I have purchased a full setup to run Biopellets , and also have a reactor and GFO on standby as well.

My questions are .

1.IF you Do carbon dose ( vodka , vinegar , biopellets ) when did you start and why ? nitrates where creeping up on you ?

2. Anyone running a lps/sps reef with fish medium stocked long term without any sort of carbon dosing . ? If so what levels of Nitrate are you happy with

feedback would be great .

Seems from the reading I do I am finding alot of people are running biopellets without really knowing why .Thus i am asking what people are doing

thanks

If your tank is new it is safe to start bio-pellets.

Any dosing requires testing, therefore you might get tired of the routine may not sound like a big deal now but eventually you may get sick of the dosing and testing.

I have had a few reef tanks since 1998 and never liked dosing just for that reason.
I always had a Calcium reactor (set it and forget it).

My present tank is almost 8 years old now SPS mostly some LPS and softies.
Tried dosing but for very short period to see any benefit. so i can say i have never fully implemented dosing.

I did tryed pellets on 4 years old SPS reef followed the proper regime to the "T" and still lost more then $450 worth of my best SPS.

So i did not have very good experience with bio pellets and would not recommend then on an established tank.
However on the new tank like yours it would be a lot less risky to try.

My tank is over stocked, over fed and over skimmed.
I have 1 very large (8" French Angel) , 2 large fish (Moorish Idol and Hippo Tang), two small Percula Clowns , one juvenile Coris Wrass and two tiny yellow gobies.

I grossly overfeed my 65 gal+ sump tank (two three cubes some times 4 per day plus flakes, cyclopeeze and lots of pellets) but over-skimm as well and it seems to be in very good balance. Bare bottom with lots of live rock in the display tank and sump as well.

Good luck with your new tank

[naesco]

Need some help here .

I have had my tank setup now for 2 months . I have had 5 fish in there now for about 2 weeks .

My nitrates with (elos kit) have been undetectable and still measuring .02 phosphates with the hanna checker.

I have purchased a full setup to run Biopellets , and also have a reactor and GFO on standby as well.

My questions are .

1.IF you Do carbon dose ( vodka , vinegar , biopellets ) when did you start and why ? nitrates where creeping up on you ?

2. Anyone running a lps/sps reef with fish medium stocked long term without any sort of carbon dosing . ? If so what levels of Nitrate are you happy with

feedback would be great .

Seems from the reading I do I am finding alot of people are running biopellets without really knowing why .Thus i am asking what people are doing

thanks

It is an unecessary expense and maintenance when you do not have problems.

But what you need to know and subject to the size of your tank and the size of your fish, you should only be adding one fish per month. The reason is that the biological filtration does not get out of wack.

Going to a lfs and coming out with a wack of fish is a newbie major error which most of us made when we started. The result was dead or diseased fish, high nitrates, and persistant (I am going to quit the hobby) algae problems.

Slow down. Patience is the key to success, not biopellets
Wayne

[Reef Pilot]

I think some people have problems with bio pellets, because they are not using MB7 or some other bacterial supplement. MB7 provides beneficial bacteria which out competes cyano and prevents mulm. It also makes my tank crystal clear.

Also, you need a good bio pellet reactor that tumbles your bio pellets properly.

I have used bio pellets (with MB7) for over a year now, and can say that it works very well for me. My SPS is growing very nicely.

I should mention that I inherited a very mature tank (10+ years) old that was totally infested with algae, cyano, detritus, etc, and phosphates and nitrates were very high. It took me a while to get it down, but now I have zero nitrates, and near zero phosphates. I also run GFO, as the bio pellets did not completely eliminate the phosphates.

Before that, I tried everything else, refugium, vacuuming sand, as well as brushing, turkey basting and rinsing my live rocks, not to mention lots of water changes. It was not until I started using bio pellets (and still took another 3 months) that I finally got my nitrates and phosphates totally under control. So no doubt in my mind that bio pellets work.

The other thing with bio pellets, is that it is very low maintenance. I last added pellets about 5 months ago, and noticed that my consumption is still decreasing. Plus I never have to clean my bio pellet reactor. And if there is a power outage (had one recently here), it starts right up, with no intervention or more maintenance.

But as per my initial post on this thread at the beginning, I still don't recommend bio pellets or carbon dosing on a new tank, unless you can't get your nitrates down with normal good tank husbandry practices.

[freezetyle]

not necessary,
but if you were looking for options it really depends on how hands on you want to be.
bio-pellets for the most part are set and forget. just make sure you are keeping them topped up and have the effluent of the reactor running into your skimmer intake.

vinegar- little bit more slack then the other methods, you can fine tune your dosage to where you you will limit algae while avoiding mulm build-up.
should be dosed daily via hand or pump

vodka/vsv mix- same as above but should be dosed by hand

zeovit/fm zeolith/ brightwell neozeo. - more labour intensive, little more expensive.



for what your goals are, and since you already have it, set up biopellets. add a little bit at a time so you dont get a biobloom. if your coral are starting to lighten up too much, feed more food. still getting algae, do more water changes

[Son Of Skyline]

Out of curiosity, when does a fad become mainstream? I thought carbon dosing has been around for a while now? Is there a time limit?

Yes there is. 8 years 6 months (102 months). That is the fad to mainstream cutoff. Some say only 96 months, but that's a whole other argument.


My point was to the OP. You absolutely dont need carbon dosing for long term success. Your tank can and will be fine without it if that's the route you choose to take.

[asylumdown]

You're right. The colour change in a coral could mean any number of things, good and bad. I know my tank and its inhabitants well though, and I know the difference between a "good" response and a "stress" response. This was a stress response. In all my years of reef keeping, carbon dosing is new, and IMO a fad. People never had a problem keeping sps before carbon dosing.

You're right, and I wasn't in any way suggesting you didn't know what was going on in your own tank, I was just trying to point out that there are plenty of carbon dosed tanks that flourish, but that exhibit the same symptoms you described. If someone were to go down that path (or any extreme nutrient reduction path), I wouldn't want them to think that corals lightening up and algae growth rates declining were necessarily a sign of a problem.

As for carbon dosing and it's place in the hobby, I would argue that not even 30 years ago, keeping SPS alive at all was a wet dream for most people who kept salt water tanks. I would argue further that widespread 'success' (ie, good colour and growth) with SPS corals didn't start to leave the hands of the most dedicated 'expert' reefers until the late 90s. Our knowledge of corals and how to keep them has improved dramatically in a relatively short period of time, so there's not enough of a history keeping them successfully with any one method to call a newer method a fad I think. I've been reading about carbon dosing in some form or another for the 4 years that I've been interested in the hobby, and I'm pretty sure some of the threads I researched back in the beginning were a couple of years old, so relative to the history of SPS keeping, it's actually been around for a pretty long time. Biopelletes are more recent, but they're born out the shared experiential knowledge of forum users testing out their own home-made carbon dosing regiments for years prior. It obviously works, but it's not the only way to do it and it produces a specific result that ultimately comes down to a matter of taste I think. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

But back to the original point of this thread - I still think that if you're going to do them, your best results will be if you do them from the start and let the system evolve that way. You don't have to use them, but they change the equation pretty significantly when they start to work, and if one thing about corals can be agreed on universally, it's that they do better when their environment is stable.

[asylumdown]

My point was to the OP. You absolutely dont need carbon dosing for long term success. Your tank can and will be fine without it if that's the route you choose to take.


Agreed 100%. The corals don't give two whits how you keep nutrients within their acceptable range. Just that you do. The method doesn't matter, it's the result.

[reeferfulton]

great responses everyone , thanks very much . It really nice to have people give your there experiences and opinions .

I think i will be setting up the pellets asap , I am going to introduce them at an even slower pace then normal cautioned.

thanks again .

[Son Of Skyline]

Agreed 100%. The corals don't give two whits how you keep nutrients within their acceptable range. Just that you do. The method doesn't matter, it's the result.

Also agree :) Doesn't matter how you do it, as long as you are consistent with it.