New tank question

[jason604]

Hi my tank is fairly new cycle is at .25 ppm ammonia/0 nitrite/0 nitrate. Running live rock only at the moment. I'm planning to buy about 10 corals and 2 fishes and about an addictional 20lbs or so of live rock from a mature tank to my existing 70lbs. Will everything survive if I put it in all at once or will the new tank syndrome that I read about happen? Or does that only happens when u add a lot of fish not coral? Please advise me before I waste a bunch of money and kill everything

[Reef Pilot]

Has your tank fully cycled? IE, nitrites have shown up, followed later by nitrates. Before adding any corals or fish, you should have zero ammonia, and zero nitrites. Some nitrates are OK and are an indication that your tank has cycled.

You don't want to rush setting up a new tank. Lots of info here about this if you search a bit and read up on cycling new tanks.

[jason604]

Yes I had nitrite an nitrate spike as well as ammonia spike. But I don't know why everything dropped to 0 but ammonia at 0.25. I did the putting in a dead shrimp method

[Reef Pilot]

I wouldn't expect the nitrates to spike and then go to zero, unless you did some major water changes. How long has your tank been running? It usually takes several weeks and often much longer before being fully cycled and ready to add livestock.

I would add more live rock, and monitor. If your tank is cycling properly, your ammonia should be zero.

[jason604]

I wouldn't expect the nitrates to spike and then go to zero, unless you did some major water changes. How long has your tank been running? It usually takes several weeks and often much longer before being fully cycled and ready to add livestock.

I would add more live rock, and monitor. If your tank is cycling properly, your ammonia should be zero.

It's been cycling for 4 weeks now. All 70lbs of my rock was cycling in a 20gallon container. The reading dropped down to those I posted earlier for about almost a week now. I then put all e rocks into my 75g tank n put only about 10g of the old water in the container to a tank full of new water and the reading still stayed the same.

Anyways if I buy the 10-15 corals n 2 Nemo and I keep them in a container with the owners original water sand n live rock will that be ok till my tank is fully cycled and slowly move them like 5 at a time into my main tank?

[jason604]

Can I buy a special chemical that will remove the remaining 0.25 ppm of ammonia? Lol

[H2o2]

try not getting on the special chemical band wagon as that can be trouble may be set up a bare bottom tank with new water on stand by bring his stuff and water and put in and do a partical water change in the morning and watch your parameters and when ammonia is gone and all the good go from there but thats if your friend has to shut his down

[Reef Pilot]

Can I buy a special chemical that will remove the remaining 0.25 ppm of ammonia? Lol
No, if your tank is properly cycled, then the ammonia would cycle through to nitrite and then on to nitrate, which would then show in your tank.

Is it possible your test kit is giving you a false reading of ammonia? In the past I have seen test kits that seem to show a small amount of ammonia, even in a fully cycled tank.

But what bothers me, too, is that you are not showing any nitrates, which to me indicates that your tank may not be fully cycled. That's why I say before adding fish, put in the rest of the live rock, and maybe some more dead shrimp, to see if any nitrates show up.

It is not right to put in live fish, if you are not sure the tank is ready. Ammonia is very harmful to fish. And if there is indeed some there now, a lot more will show up once more organic matter is added to the tank.

[jason604]

Yes u don't really understand either... A few days after I put a dead shrimp in my ammonia nitrite an nitrate spiked pretty high. Now it all drop.but still 0.25 ammonia. I'm using the API test kits from JL. The amonnia is very light yellowish tiny bit light green. From what the kit says it should be bright yellow for 0ppm. And I don't know why my nitrate is 0.. I'm pretty confused On what to do..

No, if your tank is properly cycled, then the ammonia would cycle through to nitrite and then on to nitrate, which would then show in your tank.

Is it possible your test kit is giving you a false reading of ammonia? In the past I have seen test kits that seem to show a small amount of ammonia, even in a fully cycled tank.

But what bothers me, too, is that you are not showing any nitrates, which to me indicates that your tank may not be fully cycled. That's why I say before adding fish, put in the rest of the live rock, and maybe some more dead shrimp, to see if any nitrates show up.

It is not right to put in live fish, if you are not sure the tank is ready. Ammonia is very harmful to fish. And if there is indeed some there now, a lot more will show up once more organic matter is added to the tank.

[ckmullin]

Test kits can go bad... Is it expired? I'd suggest to grab a nice water sample and go down to your favorite local reef store and ask them to test it.

From what you've said it seems to me like the tank isn't 100% cycled. OR at least not a high enough bacteria population. Ammonia-->nitrite-->nitrate when cycled should basically be seamless. A basic test to see if your NEW tank is coming along is by a zero ammonia reading.

IMO...wait. Wait and read. Read till your eyes bleed. Then use toothpicks and read more. Check your readings again in one week and then after another week. In 2 weeks you've read enough to answer your 2 questions.

Regarding your two questions.

A baker/mechanic/web programmer/etc takes needed methodical steps to achieve a final desired product. Suggest to do the same in regards to this hobby. Take your time and add things slowly.

Your second question is the same as above. Take your time...no rush. If you do go out and spend big $ on stock for a brand new/not mature (possibly not fully cycled) tank it's just asking for a headache.


Just trying to help.

[reef-keeper]

As far as your question about adding more live rock after the tank has cycled you might get another major spike in ammonia. Due to the die off of the freshly added new rock. If you are going to add more rock it is best to add during the cycle stage. That way you don't create a new cycle, that just creates stress on the inhabitants of the tank. This I learned by trial and error killing off several fish in the process.

[Reef Pilot]

Yes u don't really understand either... A few days after I put a dead shrimp in my ammonia nitrite an nitrate spiked pretty high. Now it all drop.but still 0.25 ammonia. I'm using the API test kits from JL. The amonnia is very light yellowish tiny bit light green. From what the kit says it should be bright yellow for 0ppm. And I don't know why my nitrate is 0.. I'm pretty confused On what to do..
Not sure what you think I don't understand.... I am trying to help. Based on the info you gave, I would not assume the tank is fully cycled. Like I said, I would like to see your nitrates show up, and be brought down by water changes, not a subsequent test. Sounds more like a bad test.

With testing, be sure to read the instructions carefully. With the API nitrate test, you need to really shake the solutions well for the specified times after each step, and wait the 5 min at the end, or again you will get false readings.

[jason604]

Yes my test kits are brand. I do shake it for more than 5 secs. About 10 or more because I thought that would make it mix better. Mybe that's y my readings are weird. Ill try again later when I get home. I added 3 bags of carribe pink sand in mybe that's y my nitrate is low? Also my rocks are pretty white and not many diatoms on it. I read that rocks should be pretty covered in diatoms before it finishes cycling. I Havnt seen that yet.

[reefwars]

whats hes saying is he cycled the rock outside the display , he had high everything and used all new water when putting his rock into the display except for about 10% of the water that was in his rock bin , this is why theres no nitrates and very little amonia.

by moving the rock to the new tank a mini cycle is happening again , let a week or two go by it should even out....no chems needed.

the fish and coral can stay in a bin for now provided water quality is very good and other needs are met like food,nutrtient export,flow,proper parameters, lights etc...


cheers

denny

[reefwars]

Yes my test kits are brand. I do shake it for more than 5 secs. About 10 or more because I thought that would make it mix better. Mybe that's y my readings are weird. Ill try again later when I get home. I added 3 bags of carribe pink sand in mybe that's y my nitrate is low? Also my rocks are pretty white and not many diatoms on it. I read that rocks should be pretty covered in diatoms before it finishes cycling. I Havnt seen that yet.


your nitrates are low because you added the rock to a new tank with mostly new water , nitrates are removable simply by removing water and waste.

if theres amonia now its going through a mini cycle and nitrates will show again shortly.

[jason604]

Thx Denny for telling me about the mini cycle. Was my English retarded or something that ppl couldn understand me? Lol

whats hes saying is he cycled the rock outside the display , he had high everything and used all new water when putting his rock into the display except for about 10% of the water that was in his rock bin , this is why theres no nitrates and very little amonia.

by moving the rock to the new tank a mini cycle is happening again , let a week or two go by it should even out....no chems needed.

the fish and coral can stay in a bin for now provided water quality is very good and other needs are met like food,nutrtient export,flow,proper parameters, lights etc...


cheers

denny

[JmeJReefer]

Just wait. Biggest rookie mistake is trying to get going too fast. Wait for the Zeros. this is a hobby where carelessness costs. A LOT.
I have a 9 gallon diy nano that i let cycle for nearly 3 months. I added livestock over another yrs time and have had minimal casualties (stupid jumping fish) but nothing from a crash or spike.
Two words. Water changes.

Nuff said.

[Reef Pilot]

Yes my test kits are brand. I do shake it for more than 5 secs. About 10 or more because I thought that would make it mix better. Mybe that's y my readings are weird. Ill try again later when I get home. I added 3 bags of carribe pink sand in mybe that's y my nitrate is low? Also my rocks are pretty white and not many diatoms on it. I read that rocks should be pretty covered in diatoms before it finishes cycling. I Havnt seen that yet.
Like I said, go back and read those instructions again. They need to be shaken hard 1st time for 30 seconds, both the solution and bottle 2, then 1 full min for the solution after adding drops from bottle 2. Then you need to wait 5 min before testing. 5 or 10 sec won't cut it.

And Denny, I do understand about his moving the rocks and water from the container to the tank, although he didn't make that clear in his 1st post.

I am just trying to get him to err on the cautious and be sure the tank, not just the old container with the live rocks is fully cycled. Even in the container, doesn't make sense to me that he had nitrates, and then they disappeared with another test. He said this happened before transferring to the tank. That's why I suspect the testing procedure.

And yes, he could have another mini cycle, but a cycle is a cycle to me..... Until I see nitrates in the final tank after putting organic matter through the cycle, I wouldn't assume anything. And to prevent further "mini-cycles" I would get the rest of that live rock, and put it through the cycle, long before buying any fish.

Hate to say it, but I see a lot more trouble down the road, with ich and other diseases, if this thread is any indication of things to come...

[jason604]

after doing my test again extremely carefully the results are... ammonia 0.25/ nitrite 0/ nitrate 10ppm

[Reef Pilot]

after doing my test again extremely carefully the results are... ammonia 0.25/ nitrite 0/ nitrate 10ppm
OK, that sounds better. It does mean your tank is cycling. Still not sure why you are seeing any ammonia then. It could be your test kit. Some are hard to interpret the lowest color reading.

I would still go slow, though, as your cycling capacity may still be pretty limited. IE, you may not be able to handle a larger bio load. As mentioned before, get all your live rock in place and monitor again for any "mini cycles". If your ammonia increases, that is a bad sign. If your nitrates increase, that is good.

Then change your water, and if your parameters are stable, you can try add come corals and a couple fish. But again, go slow, and monitor. Some nitrates are OK. Water changes will reduce them.

You should also consider setting up a QT. Otherwise, you are in for a lot more grief down the road. I recommend the hyposalintiy route. Here is a good article about that.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish

[slakker]

To your original question, I would put in the additional LR now and let that cycle again... even though the rock may be "cured", some life will likely still die off during transport unless is transported with water and all (but even then). Things like sponges on the rock will die very quickly once exposed to air, and when put into you tank, it'll likely start a new cycle.

[jason604]

Yea I've decided I'm going to go slow and just get a clean up crew and some nice live rock with coral line on it first so I don't end up killing everything when purchased as a bundle deal even tho the price is amazing lol. I did some research and I think the reason why my tank still shows 0.25 ppm of ammonia is because I used tap water with a declorinator that I made instead of RO water. Other forums say the use of prime will show some ammonia but it actually is harmless

[slakker]

I notice you're in Vancouver, not sure which water shed you're fed from but I'm in the Coquitlam area and our water is pretty good (still not as good as RO/DI). You can pick up a system from eBay pretty cheap if you want, but with the water meters being installed, it may be pretty costly. Some systems use 3 to 4 times the water to make a gallon of RO/DI.

My buddy uses a simple carbon block and DI resin in series with good results and doesn't waste any water.

[jason604]

Is just leaving the water out for few hours good enough?

[slakker]

Not sure if it's good enough, but what I would do at minimum is make the salt water and throw a power head/pump and heater in it and run it 24 hours, the circulation and aeration will make the water better for sure...

[jason604]

Not sure if it's good enough, but what I would do at minimum is make the salt water and throw a power head/pump and heater in it and run it 24 hours, the circulation and aeration will make the water better for sure...

Yup I do that but just for few hrs. Also I went to the lfs and got my water tested and it had 0 ammonia. They told me the API test kit I got is ****ty and gave me wrong readings.

[gregzz4]

Nesslers and salicylate test methods for ammonia will give false positive results when dechlorinators are used
They raise the pH of the test water and cause the total ammonia to become free ammonia, thus giving a positive result where there wasn't free ammonia in the water sample to begin with

In my freshwater days I used a Hagen 0-7.3mg/L (http://usa.hagen.com/Aquatic/Watercare/Test-Kits/A7820) Nesslers kit and had false positives
I switched to the Hagen 0-6.1mg/L (http://usa.hagen.com/Aquatic/Watercare/Test-Kits/A7855) Indophenol based test kit and all was good

Now that I'm into saltwater, I use Seachem Ammonia Badges, a Seachem Ammonia test kit, and an Elos Ammonia test kit
I don't know if Prime affects the Elos kit, but it doesn't affect the Seachem ones

As was suggested, if you keep using tap water, let your new saltwater mix for 24 hours with a heater (optional) and powerhead
The circulation is enough to off-gas the chlorine and you can then use whatever ammonia kit you like

Our water here is pretty clean, but we still have around 8ppm TDS from the tap. Not knowing what that 8 consists of is enough for me to use RO :wink: