New sump design...........hit me with some input

[The Grizz]

Here is 2 rough layouts of my new sump design. Hope it's self explanatory

Design #1

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx291/GRIZZtheWELDER/300%20gal%208%20footer/D1B2E714-93CC-41BA-BDF2-277B8BC1AE06-3012-0000046383B5D9E1_zps10352519.jpg


Design #2

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx291/GRIZZtheWELDER/300%20gal%208%20footer/B614DA5D-1F44-4733-A575-2522369C4BEF-3012-0000046373095DA4_zpsf1c6bbc5.jpg

[zum14]

Well it looks really fancy. On the first drawing the baffle heights look good. I've found you need to have the socks about 2" above the water or they tend to shift out of there holder. On your second drawing Your sharpie lines show the water being about the same height as the sock holder. From my experience (what little there is) I think that you will find your water height will be too high in the middle chamber even with clean socks as you need to have a slight difference in pressure for the water to push through the sock. The other thing is you want to have the safety channel. If your socks plug up you want to have a way for the water to go over the baffle. Right now it would hit the floor. Not that 8 socks are going to plug quickly. Only other question I had was is there a specific reason for running 2 systems back to back like that? I have 2500gph running through 2 4" socks and the water still splashes into them making me think they can handle even more flow. Couple of 7" socks and you could run the whole amount through them. Then you got room for a refugium or frag tank. It's an awesome size, excited to see this one get set up. If its anything like your other tanks it'll be stellar. I like the built in chambers and ato. Good use of space.

[kien]

I have no idea what any of that means. :lol:

How about an explanation for simpletons like myself?

[HaZRaTTy]

I have no idea what any of that means. :lol:

How about an explanation for simpletons like myself?

Water flows in, water flows out?


Curious why you have 2 return chambers?

[The Grizz]

Quick answer for tonight on the 2 return chambers. Going to be running 2 - DC10000 return pumps with OM 4ways on each to a total of 8 return lines threw the back of my new tank.

[kien]

Thanks for clearing that up! I was confused/mesmerized by all those chambers.

Speaking of chambers, I am against integrated dosing chambers :-). I frequently clean the crud out of my jugs by rinsing them in the sink. Can't imagine what a pain it would be to try and clean out integrated ones in your sump. I suppose you could just live with any residue and not bother to clean them.

[gregzz4]

Likin' either design

What about incorporating your heater(s) into one of the bubble traps to save space

Mine are in a wasted bubble trap, are always wet no matter what the return pump is doing, and are not fully submerged so hopefully they'll last longer (not fill up with water over time)

Same idea as what you are planning;
Drain to whatever chamber that overflows through the socks, then have the heaters in the next (upflow) chamber and voila, heaters are always wet, easy to remove and keeps the tops dry

Hopefully your sump is deep enough for your heaters to stand up straight :wink:

I ended up re-designing my sump (last pic), but thought these first pics would be good for a visual

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx136/Gregzz4/75%20Gallon%20Build/DSC00812.jpg

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx136/Gregzz4/75%20Gallon%20Build/DSC00826.jpg

This is where I changed the design and added the socks before the heaters
The last baffle is hidden by the center brace

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx136/Gregzz4/75%20Gallon%20Build/DSC01316.jpg

[gregzz4]

I see there is some concern about your sock tray height ...

I have 3 x 4" socks (only equals 1 x 7") in my sump and run an Eheim 1262
My sock tray is about 1/2" below the lip of my trim, and when the mesh socks plugged up, water flowed over the baffle (1/4" below the trim) without ever going near the trim

I also don't have the water dropping into the socks, but rather just flowing through them
My socks are fully submerged and have never shifted

I don't see an issue with your sock trays being anywhere you want them

[reefme]

Water levels for two return pumps will not be the same.

[paddyob]

I say drop a baffle from each bubble trap. Over kill. More sump space.

[Myka]

Quick answer for tonight on the 2 return chambers. Going to be running 2 - DC10000 return pumps with OM 4ways on each to a total of 8 return lines threw the back of my new tank.


How big is the display? I like OM on closed loop rather than return line. I would have one return chamber and both pumps in there. Have the sump flow one direction. Returns go straight to tank with maybe a couple splitters so you have 4 nozzles going into tank (depending on size of display). Then make closed loop to run the 8 OM outputs.

Eight 4" filter socks? I would rather use four 7" filter socks. I hate 4" filter socks.

[subman]

Looks great Greg. Is that ATO chamber going to be fed from an ro/di system or are you having to manually add water? If you are manually adding.. It's to small.

I know you have a lot of returns heading back to the display but I think I'd still rather a larger single return section with both pumps in it.

[paddyob]

Oh I was referring to the sump in the
Photo. Not the
Mock up.

[Skimmerking]

I have no idea what any of that means. :lol:

How about an explanation for simpletons like myself?



:pop2:

[The Grizz]

Water levels for two return pumps will not be the same.

DOnt really care if they are different or not they will still pump the same amount of water.

I say drop a baffle from each bubble trap. Over kill. More sump space.

In order to get the right baffle pattern ( over/under/over ) I had to add a 4th.

Thanks for clearing that up! I was confused/mesmerized by all those chambers.

Speaking of chambers, I am against integrated dosing chambers :-). I frequently clean the crud out of my jugs by rinsing them in the sink. Can't imagine what a pain it would be to try and clean out integrated ones in your sump. I suppose you could just live with any residue and not bother to clean them.

Good point Kien, I will remove them and just go with individual containers.

[CM125]

I still dont understand the purpose of the two return chambers, with a sump that size you could have a bad-ass refuge and a larger return area with both pumps in it, or even a larger ATO area. Also does that ATO top off both return sections? seems like another pump would be needed...

[The Grizz]

Likin' either design

What about incorporating your heater(s) into one of the bubble traps to save space

Mine are in a wasted bubble trap, are always wet no matter what the return pump is doing, and are not fully submerged so hopefully they'll last longer (not fill up with water over time)

Same idea as what you are planning;
Drain to whatever chamber that overflows through the socks, then have the heaters in the next (upflow) chamber and voila, heaters are always wet, easy to remove and keeps the tops dry

Hopefully your sump is deep enough for your heaters to stand up straight :wink:

My current tank has never had the heater turned on at all, my chiller has to run even in the winter. As I have said before or living room has in floor heat and the glass window separating it from the pool help keep it really warm in there BUT I do plan on having 1 maybe 2 heaters in there just in case. They will not fit in the baffles as I am going to be using a digital type heater.

Well it looks really fancy. On the first drawing the baffle heights look good. I've found you need to have the socks about 2" above the water or they tend to shift out of there holder. On your second drawing Your sharpie lines show the water being about the same height as the sock holder. From my experience (what little there is) I think that you will find your water height will be too high in the middle chamber even with clean socks as you need to have a slight difference in pressure for the water to push through the sock. The other thing is you want to have the safety channel. If your socks plug up you want to have a way for the water to go over the baffle. Right now it would hit the floor. Not that 8 socks are going to plug quickly. Only other question I had was is there a specific reason for running 2 systems back to back like that? I have 2500gph running through 2 4" socks and the water still splashes into them making me think they can handle even more flow. Couple of 7" socks and you could run the whole amount through them. Then you got room for a refugium or frag tank. It's an awesome size, excited to see this one get set up. If its anything like your other tanks it'll be stellar. I like the built in chambers and ato. Good use of space.

Not going to have a refuge ever again, it was more of a pain then anything & I already have a frag tank going. Thanks for the input on the socks I will go look at my buddies sump and see what he did with his socks so I get a better idea. I have a couple piece of glass with a notch cut out of the corner that fit the tank and could use them for the sock holder wall with the notch at the top.

How big is the display? I like OM on closed loop rather than return line. I would have one return chamber and both pumps in there. Have the sump flow one direction. Returns go straight to tank with maybe a couple splitters so you have 4 nozzles going into tank (depending on size of display). Then make closed loop to run the 8 OM outputs.

Eight 4" filter socks? I would rather use four 7" filter socks. I hate 4" filter socks.

It a 300 gal 8'er Myka. I dont want another closed loop, also a pain in the arse. I want to be able to control the amount of flow on each pump as one pump will return on one half of the tank and the other pump the other half.

[The Grizz]

Looks great Greg. Is that ATO chamber going to be fed from an ro/di system or are you having to manually add water? If you are manually adding.. It's to small.

I know you have a lot of returns heading back to the display but I think I'd still rather a larger single return section with both pumps in it.


I still dont understand the purpose of the two return chambers, with a sump that size you could have a bad-ass refuge and a larger return area with both pumps in it, or even a larger ATO area. Also does that ATO top off both return sections? seems like another pump would be needed...

No refuge, ever again!

I am planning a auto WC system as well as a feed pump directly from my 200 gal whole house RO system. I want to have the 2 pump apart because it will be very hard to plumb 2 4ways that close together. also want to have as my OF lines as short as possible ( dual bean animals ) and join together near center of the tank to a 3" manifold.

[reefwars]

In order to get the right baffle pattern ( over/under/over ) I had to add a 4th.




no , if you wanted to remove one of the baffles you would change how your filter sock is built , the way you have it water passes under the baffle , just drop the first baffle down and leave a 1" gap between the tray and the glass.

like this:

http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad85/reefwars/sump1_zpse9d05725.jpg


then you can follow with the other two baffles.


personally i also dont see the need for two return chambers i would use that space for something else if it were moi;)

[Myka]

How is an ATO going to work with two return chambers? Don't tell me you're manually topping off a 300-gallon tank...?? :lol:

It a 300 gal 8'er Myka. I dont want another closed loop, also a pain in the arse. I want to be able to control the amount of flow on each pump as one pump will return on one half of the tank and the other pump the other half.

Why is a closed loop a PITA?

If it was me I would use one of those DC10000 pumps for a return with 2 or 4 nozzles, and then get a bigger pump for a closed loop. :D Those DC10000 pumps aren't near big enough imo. I would be looking at a Reeflo Hammerhead for each OM which would still only give you about 35x turnover.

[zum14]

I see there is some concern about your sock tray height ...

I have 3 x 4" socks (only equals 1 x 7") in my sump and run an Eheim 1262
My sock tray is about 1/2" below the lip of my trim, and when the mesh socks plugged up, water flowed over the baffle (1/4" below the trim) without ever going near the trim

I also don't have the water dropping into the socks, but rather just flowing through them
My socks are fully submerged and have never shifted

I don't see an issue with your sock trays being anywhere you want them

Interesting. I had mine in a fairly tight holder but they still shifted. He will be running about 3 times as much flow as a 1262 too. Just something to ponder. I do agree your way would be quieter. I guess if you plan for the difference in water height it would work. Pm me if you have a pic. I'd be interested in seeing a side view of this in action if you ever get one. I hate to admit it but the behind the scene stuff is almost as exciting as the tank itself for me. Hmm I never considered the ato if the chambers don't stay constant and balanced. If you had a way of keeping the return chambers connected to each other so there's essentially a balance pipe I guess that would keep everything even and still allow you to have 2 return chambers for ease of plumbing. I agree OM's get tight fast.

[The Grizz]

How is an ATO going to work with two return chambers? Don't tell me you're manually topping off a 300-gallon tank...?? :lol:



Why is a closed loop a PITA?

If it was me I would use one of those DC10000 pumps for a return with 2 or 4 nozzles, and then get a bigger pump for a closed loop. :D Those DC10000 pumps aren't near big enough imo. I would be looking at a Reeflo Hammerhead for each OM which would still only give you about 35x turnover.

Well it isnt you :razz: I have a closed loop on the 165 now and I dont like it because sand gets into the suction side and has damaged my 4way drum to the point that I cant use it until I replace it.

Not to mention the noise of a hammerhead pump terrible, also had one of these on my 165 and I could hear it up stairs in my bedroom. This is a low noise, low power consumption build.
ATO will have sensor in the smaller side to monitor the level and top it up balancing them both.

[Myka]

Well it isnt you :razz:

You asked for input you dork. :mrgreen:

I have a closed loop on the 165 now and I dont like it because sand gets into the suction side and has damaged my 4way drum to the point that I cant use it until I replace it.

Well that's just really poor design. :lol: Input should be up high or I've seen some people put them in the overflow box.

Not to mention the noise of a hammerhead pump terrible, also had one of these on my 165 and I could hear it up stairs in my bedroom. This is a low noise, low power consumption build.

I think you will be disappointed in the flow of the DC10000 for the OMs. Or do you plan to add powerheads?

ATO will have sensor in the smaller side to monitor the level and top it up balancing them both.

This sounds too complicated for me. What is the reason for two return chambers? Is there a reason to not use one return chamber? I don't understand the benefit.

[The Grizz]

You asked for input you dork. :mrgreen:

I am not a dork :razz: respect your elders young lady :lol:


Well that's just really poor design. :lol: Input should be up high or I've seen some people put them in the overflow box.

It the way the owner of Ocean Motion suggested I plumb it.

I think you will be disappointed in the flow of the DC10000 for the OMs. Or do you plan to add powerheads?

I do have 2 MP40's that I might use on the ends. I have a DC10000 on my 165 right now and very impressed at the flow rate & I have it running 2 - 1" return line just like it would be on the 4way ( 2 lines at a time )

This sounds too complicated for me. What is the reason for two return chambers? Is there a reason to not use one return chamber? I don't understand the benefit.

Try to plumb 2 of these in one small area, keep all your return lines relitively the same length & as short as possible to minimize head loss, not to mention as need ad possible as well.

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx291/GRIZZtheWELDER/300%20gal%208%20footer/33C59870-1A79-4F97-9194-1545995107A9-3709-0000056CEB8DAA06_zps78544001.jpg

[The Grizz]

Could do it this way as well, just have to have room for an ATO tank and my skimmer under the main tank. Chiller is going under the cabinet tower on the one end & the other end tower will have my dosing chambers and chiller for my 60 gal seahorse tank that will be beside the 300.

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx291/GRIZZtheWELDER/300%20gal%208%20footer/b5967a7a-a1f3-42e2-adaa-ec0547422c6f_zpsb29fb3d3.jpg

[Myka]

I like the above layout much better. So...is OM replacing your drum for free?

[The Grizz]

I like the above layout much better. So...is OM replacing your drum for free?

Never asked as its been a couple yrs since I bought it.

[The Grizz]

I am also thinking it might be easier to switch out the 4ways to squids if I can find them.

[Myka]

SCWDs steal 30% of the flow to operate though.

[The Grizz]

SCWDs steal 30% of the flow to operate though.

Been reading about them for the last few hrs & have not seen that mentioned any where, show me.

[Myka]

Since you asked so nicely... :lol:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=825647
http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/76226-scwd-flow-reduction/
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/scwd-again-40927.html
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=701787

[The Grizz]

Since you asked so nicely... :lol:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=825647
http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/76226-scwd-flow-reduction/
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/scwd-again-40927.html
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=701787

All good links, thank Myka but I am 100% positive all of them are referring to the 3/4" model not the 1" model. Also this chart that was linked On the nano-reef site shows that @ 720 GPH in you get 660 GPH out which makes it only 10% loss. I will be running a much bigger pump then that.

I think I might order one & test it out on my current tank to get at least a first hand testing & if it doesn't work well for my big tank it should be just fine for my seahorse tank.

[Myka]

All good links, thank Myka but I am 100% positive all of them are referring to the 3/4" model not the 1" model. Also this chart that was linked On the nano-reef site shows that @ 720 GPH in you get 660 GPH out which makes it only 10% loss. I will be running a much bigger pump then that.

I think I might order one & test it out on my current tank to get at least a first hand testing & if it doesn't work well for my big tank it should be just fine for my seahorse tank.

Aren't the 3/4" and 1" built with the same design? At least they are cheap to test out - good idea. Good luck!

[FishyFishy!]

All good links, thank Myka but I am 100% positive all of them are referring to the 3/4" model not the 1" model. Also this chart that was linked On the nano-reef site shows that @ 720 GPH in you get 660 GPH out which makes it only 10% loss. I will be running a much bigger pump then that.

I think I might order one & test it out on my current tank to get at least a first hand testing & if it doesn't work well for my big tank it should be just fine for my seahorse tank.

The crappy thing about the sqwds is that they are not servicable. Mine only lasted a year before it siezed on me. Mine was the 3/4" version, so maybe the 1" will be better. I have to say, that while it was working, it created some awesome random alternating flow in my tank.

I'm surprised that Sphelps hasn't chimed in here yet. He's good at this planning stuff! He's helping me create the multi-sump-multi-pump setup for my 7 footer.

[The Grizz]

Aren't the 3/4" and 1" built with the same design? At least they are cheap to test out - good idea. Good luck!

The crappy thing about the sqwds is that they are not servicable. Mine only lasted a year before it siezed on me. Mine was the 3/4" version, so maybe the 1" will be better. I have to say, that while it was working, it created some awesome random alternating flow in my tank.

I'm surprised that Sphelps hasn't chimed in here yet. He's good at this planning stuff! He's helping me create the multi-sump-multi-pump setup for my 7 footer.

The 2 sizes are similar but the 1" model is completely serviceable with all removable parts to be able to clean and replace if needed.

Forgot to add this link to the data on makers website:
http://www.3iqventures.com/literature.html

And a link to the 1" model
http://www.3iqventures.com/oneinch.html

[The Grizz]

Well I ordered one of the 1" model SCWD's and did a little test on it with a DC10000 Pump. Now this is not a total scientific test but its simple for anyone to do to get a close water volume movement value.

I simply took a Rubbermaid tube and filled it with water and had a bucket with exactly 18 liters marked in it. Put a 5' - 1" hose onto the pump and timed how long it took to hit the 18 liter mark in sec's, divided 60 sec's by the time in sec's, multiplied that by 18 liters to get liters per minute & then multiplied that by 60 Min's to get liters per hour.

Then I added in the SCWD with a 6" piece of 1" hose to the pump and 2 - 5' pieces of 1" hose coming out of the SCWD. Did the same time test as above.

Here is what i have come up with:

Waveline DC10000 pump alone was 6480 LPH / 1712 GPH ( little far off there 10000 LPH claim )

Waveline DC10000 pump with SCWD was 5400 LPH / 1427 GPH


SO needless to say i am not impressed with the flow rate out of the DC10000 and have to decide if I just go with it or add in 2 more return pumps.

I wanted to test the OM 4way that I bought used last year but it doesn't rotate, it is one of the magnetic versions and if I had look at it closer or know it was the mag version I would not have bought it.

[daplatapus]

Hmmm, a bit disappointing flow rates for sure. I assume there was 0 head too. Been thinking of these for my application but with 12' of head there's no way I'll get even close to what I'll need I guess. I wonder what the 20,000 will be like....

[FishyFishy!]

Was the DC10000 hooked up externally, or submerged?

That kinda sucks, as this was the setup I was hoping for on my closed loop (only with an OM 4 way). I can only imagine the flow restriction out of an OM4..

[The Grizz]

Hmmm, a bit disappointing flow rates for sure. I assume there was 0 head too. Been thinking of these for my application but with 12' of head there's no way I'll get even close to what I'll need I guess. I wonder what the 20,000 will be like....

Was the DC10000 hooked up externally, or submerged?

That kinda sucks, as this was the setup I was hoping for on my closed loop (only with an OM 4 way). I can only imagine the flow restriction out of an OM4..

It is very disappointing & I used more 1" hose then I know I would on my tank. I had the pump submerged in the large rubbermaid bin and there was ZERO lift. I think there would be a lot more restriction on a 4way for sure.

[daplatapus]

I wonder what the difference would be if you hooked up a full 1 1/4" line or even upped it to the 1 1/2" line. From my firefighting days there's a significant difference.

[The Grizz]

I wonder what the difference would be if you hooked up a full 1 1/4" line or even upped it to the 1 1/2" line. From my firefighting days there's a significant difference.

Could do that but then when it gets to the SCWD it would have to be reduced done to 1" anyways. The DC10000 comes with the barb fitting for 3 different hose sizes and doesnt except a pvc fitting on the outlet very well.

[FishyFishy!]

Well might have to invest in one of the new Reeflo models over the Wavelines. Might be a good idea anyways because I've heard of some leaking issues with these being hooked up externally.

[The Grizz]

Well might have to invest in one of the new Reeflo models over the Wavelines. Might be a good idea anyways because I've heard of some leaking issues with these being hooked up externally.

I have one hooked up externally to my 165 gal tank now for about 6 month and never had a leak. I really like these pumps as they are super silent and reasonably priced.

[FishyFishy!]

I have one hooked up externally to my 165 gal tank now for about 6 month and never had a leak. I really like these pumps as they are super silent and reasonably priced.

Are you running a Waveline on your closed loop on the 165?

It was the noise issue for me. I would love a big Reeflo pump, but then theres noise, and my tank is in a regularily used room. Thats why I was considering the Wavelines for my closed loop.

I also heard that they started shipping the pumps with a new o-ring that prevented leaking, but some still complained about salt creep and such.

So many choices and opinions out there!! haha.

[The Grizz]

No I have it running as the main return. I have a Dolphin pump running the closed loop.


Stay clear..... this Bear bites off limbs!!

[daplatapus]

I'm running a Reeflo barracuda and the vibration runs throughout my house. I've got spa flex on both sides, isolation pad underneath it and isolation between the hangars and the pipe and I still get a hum through my floor. Been hoping for a quieter pump...

[daplatapus]

Could do that but then when it gets to the SCWD it would have to be reduced done to 1" anyways. The DC10000 comes with the barb fitting for 3 different hose sizes and doesnt except a pvc fitting on the outlet very well.

That may be true, but think of it this way. Let's say with no piping the DC10000 delivers 10000 lph @ 30PSI right at the discharge of the pump (I have no idea what pressure it delivers but for the argument let's call it that) If your SCWD is 12" away from your pump, good chances are your getting close to the same volume and pressure from your pump and the restriction starts at the SCWD.
But now, let's add 15' of 1" hose. The pump now has to overcome the friction loss of the 1" pipe before the SCWD. So now the SCWD probably only sees 6500 lph. If you can lower the friction loss the water encounters on the way (make it easier for it to get there) to the SCWD, the pump will perform much better.
I tried using some of my firefighting pump formula's but the pressures are too small for them to work, but the principles are the same. Larger hose for longer lengths to get the same pressures and volumes.

[The Grizz]

I'm running a Reeflo barracuda and the vibration runs throughout my house. I've got spa flex on both sides, isolation pad underneath it and isolation between the hangars and the pipe and I still get a hum through my floor. Been hoping for a quieter pump...

That is exactly why I wanted to use these pumps, anything else would send vibration noise through out my house.


That may be true, but think of it this way. Let's say with no piping the DC10000 delivers 10000 lph @ 30PSI right at the discharge of the pump (I have no idea what pressure it delivers but for the argument let's call it that) If your SCWD is 12" away from your pump, good chances are your getting close to the same volume and pressure from your pump and the restriction starts at the SCWD.
But now, let's add 15' of 1" hose. The pump now has to overcome the friction loss of the 1" pipe before the SCWD. So now the SCWD probably only sees 6500 lph. If you can lower the friction loss the water encounters on the way (make it easier for it to get there) to the SCWD, the pump will perform much better.
I tried using some of my firefighting pump formula's but the pressures are too small for them to work, but the principles are the same. Larger hose for longer lengths to get the same pressures and volumes.

Good point I will try that out, get some fittings for 1 1/2" figure out my return hose line length and retest.