PDA

View Full Version : Cloudy Water Ideas


ruslicus
03-28-2013, 11:57 PM
Hi

I've got cloudy water last few days and it puzzles me. My Red Planet is loosing the skin. My parameters:
1. PH 8
2. PO4 0.06
3. Ca 530
4. Alk 9
5. Salinity 1.026
6. Temp 25C

Recently I added BioPellets Reactor less than a month and I am using Live phyto and live pods. Mainly my SPS reacted. Red planet lossing the skin. Acro loosing Blue color, Pocci doesn't extend much. Other corals like hummer, acans, zoa frogspawn are ok.

Any ideas? Did 20% WC still cloudy. Thx

subman
03-29-2013, 01:02 AM
Take the pellet reactor off line

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 01:14 AM
Well, I was thinking about BioPellets but I was told to keep it on to break it through and it will get normal after 4-6 weeks. Wouldn't stop the process if I take it off the line?

kien
03-29-2013, 01:46 AM
Do you have a picture? Is it cloudy white, green, yellow? Do you have clams? Caulerpa algae? Is the outlet of your biopellet reactor pointing at the inlet of your skimmer? Could be a phytoplankton bloom?

kien
03-29-2013, 01:48 AM
Also, your calcium at 530 is a bit in the high side. Is that the value you are aiming for?

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 01:59 AM
HI Kien

it is white, not too cloudy, but not clear for sure - kind of like after WC with fine sand. The lights are on aktinic now so cannot take picture. something like this http://www.tropical-fish-friends.com/cloudy-aquarium-water.html.

BitoPellets outlet goes directly in front of skimmer inlet. Don't have clams, but have herliquin shrimps and they just started their next star fish :) have caulepra in refugium, can it give me problems?

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 02:01 AM
Also, your calcium at 530 is a bit in the high side. Is that the value you are aiming for?

This was my first concern, but my ALK is 9 usually at high Calcium Alk is very low. Tomorrow I am taking a sample to Denny, may be my Calcium Tester is out. I use Hanna checkers for Alk and Calcium. Have a bit of Phosphate but shouldn't make a big problem and other corals including Elegance coral is doing well.

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 02:03 AM
Do you think PH 8 when lights are on is low? should I dose kalkwasser? but that should affect my Calcium as well, by the way Red Sea Mg test shows 1450.

kien
03-29-2013, 02:15 AM
Caulerpa has the potential to go sexual on you and cloud your tank. This is the reason why people will tend to stay away from caulerpa as a macro algae in refugiums.

A pH range of 8-8.4 is fine during the day. Unless there is a specific reason why you want to keep your alk at 9 and calcium at 530, I would personally lower them if you plan to continue with bioPellets. Those numbers should not be catastrophic as there are many people running high alk and calc. However, generally speaking if you are doing probiotics in your tank (bioPellets, zeoVit, vodka/sugar, etc) it is recommended to run your alk in the 7-8 range.

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 02:20 AM
Caulerpa has the potential to go sexual on you and cloud your tank. This is the reason why people will tend to stay away from caulerpa as a macro algae in refugiums.

A pH range of 8-8.4 is fine during the day. Unless there is a specific reason why you want to keep your alk at 9 and calcium at 530, I would personally lower them if you plan to continue with bioPellets. Those numbers should not be catastrophic as there are many people running high alk and calc. However, generally speaking if you are doing probiotics in your tank (bioPellets, zeoVit, vodka/sugar, etc) it is recommended to run your alk in the 7-8 range.

so my plan is to test tomorrow with Denny.
1. remove caulepra from refugium
2. another WC
3. monitor Alk and keep at 7.5-8.0 level
4. Keep Biopellets on

any ideas how i can drop the Calcium?

kien
03-29-2013, 02:32 AM
Allow the levels to drop naturally from coral uptake or water changes is fine too. Just don't drop alk too aggressively or you may shock corals. All should go down on its own quite easily and quickly over the course of the week. Extra carbon (if you run carbon at all) can also help clear up the water.

subman
03-29-2013, 02:38 AM
What concerned me was the rtn on the corals. It makes it seem like there is something more wrong than high calcium. It could be the the Caulerpa spawning for sure, but I don't think it would cause the corals to run . That's why I thought it could be bio pellets. I lost an entire tank when I ran bio pellets and the water was cloudy.

Do the fish seem ok?

kien
03-29-2013, 02:53 AM
There is certainly a lot going on in the tank ATM so ya, it will be challenging to pin point the exact cause. Certainly bioPellets could be the culprit as well. At this point it wouldn't really harm anything if you took the pellets offline if you wanted to. Get everything else in check first and then bring them back on line. And yes you will be resetting your seed time for the pellets.

In the end it's probably a series of things going on making the corals unhappy.

subman
03-29-2013, 02:57 AM
Why did you start the bio pellets in the beginning? High nitrates? Phosphates?

It could be a combination of many things. I would do a water change anyway it can't hurt.

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 03:39 AM
Thx guys. I started Bio Pellets to get low nutrient tank mainly for SPS. Don't have many yet. Have couple bue and one creme and one green frags. I removed all caulepra from refugium. Changed water and cleaned my overflow. I found lots of debris - not sure if it was due to feeding?! But that might be a cause of some phosphate. I ran Carbon and GFO as well, might change GFO. Ive notice in my sump lots of small flower type things exactly the same as flowers on my caulepra, so i can think it is the problem. does SPS gets upset due to caulepra sexing?

kien
03-29-2013, 01:53 PM
If it is in fact the caulerpa goin sexual then the turbid water could potentially make sensitive corals like SPS unhappy. It could also be the tipping point if the corals were already stressed but still doing OK. Adding one more stress factor could have done them in. Again, suggesting that potentially a series of events causing this rather than just one.

On another note, do you light your fuge 24/7? I recall this being a suggestion to help keep caulerpa from going sexual. Although I suppose you've ditched them now so it doesn't really matter going forward.

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 02:00 PM
I was going lights 8pm to 8am only. But I have removed and just left chaeto. I changed water about 10% second time. I will check Alk, CA and PH today and see if it clears out. Should I keep feeding fish or better to have 2 days diet just to reestablish the tank?

Proteus
03-29-2013, 02:09 PM
What's your total livestock.
I ask because 2 years ago I watched a urchin spawn making the water cloudy.

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 02:16 PM
I have
2 Anthias Bartletts
2 Clowns (coupe of months old)
1 Poweder Blue Tand (still baby)
1 Firefish
1 Yellowtail Damsel
2 Herliquin Shrimps (man they growing so fast eating my CC star fish)
2 Pepermint shrimps
1 Blue leg crab
1 Emerlad Crab
Turbo snails few, I've notice recently lots of small snails in DT and sump
As of coral I have:
4 frags of SPS
Hummer, Frogspawn, Torch
Eegance
Zoas, 2 frags of acans
2 frags of Blasto
Open brain
Riccordea
mushrooms
Gorgonia

Pretty much this list in 70g DT with 20-25g sump

Proteus
03-29-2013, 02:40 PM
Running three nutrient export systems could be fighting each other.
Pellets being a carbon source will remove both no3 and po4. Along with gfo you could starve your macro cause it to deteriorate adding back to the system. Though I have no experience with pellets I believe to much to fast strips the water to quick.
I would pick one or the other for nutrient export either macro and gfo or carbon

If you choose to go the Biopellets Route. Consider this

I run prodibio a form of carbon dosing. While I also ran gfo I was never happy with tank. I was cleaning tank more than I would have liked. I stopped running gfo. One week after stopping gfo. I had a algae bloom I cleaned it all up and from there on after the system balanced out and I have no nutrients. I clean my glass weekly. I also filled my reactor with hydroton since I no longer use gfo.
Just so you know I run a sps and clam garden

Good luck

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 02:45 PM
Thank you Titus. As far as I know BioPellets is removing NO3 and not PO4. GFO removes PO4. I am running refugium and BioBellets for short time, as I was witing for Pellets to kick off. These 2 are overlaping - agree, but I plan to remove Refugium from my system and have just Pellets and GFO with Carbon, Pellets are skimmed. Kein can chime on this as he is more professional.

Proteus
03-29-2013, 02:58 PM
IMO carbon and gfo don't work together. Its a balance for the bacteria to remove both no3 and po4. And with gfo stripping the po4 first the bacteria never really acomplish its job.

Biopellets does remove po4. But you need a balanced ratio. Po4 will take longer but once the ratio is balanced out they will both drop. If you don't have a balance the the bacteria could stall not removing its potential

But ask kien

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 02:59 PM
ok. Lights ar on and I took some pictures. Actually looks a bit better - not so cloudy today:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8510/8600772868_fd1cc7c0f5_b.jpg

Upset Green Pocci:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8383/8599673217_6fd7868833_b.jpg

Lost color Acro:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8372/8600773524_96c4ac2597_b.jpg

Red Planet RTN:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8373/8600773828_81929c0756_b.jpg

What would be best approach to save these frags?

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 03:04 PM
IMO carbon and gfo don't work together. Its a balance for the bacteria to remove both no3 and po4. And with gfo stripping the po4 first the bacteria never really acomplish its job.

Biopellets does remove po4. But you need a balanced ratio. Po4 will take longer but once the ratio is balanced out they will both drop. If you don't have a balance the the bacteria could stall not removing its potential

But ask kien

So your recommendation is to remove GFO and refugium, and leave BioPellets and Carbon with Skimmer? My intention was to shut down the refugium after 2 months once BioPellets will kick off. Should I feed heavily?

Proteus
03-29-2013, 03:12 PM
I would remove gfo to allow for Biopellets to work at the intended potential. And macro shortly after. The bacteria culture cannot mature without nutrient for it to feed on. You may have a small spike in po4 but it will soon deminish. Also a WC during that time will help.
Once you remove macro more rubble in sump will also be benificial


Albert dao turned me on to hydroton in a reactor. With low flow and darkness you can achive a cryptic zone for sponge to grow also filterin water

And only feed what you need. Any more is just waste and nutrients. Also consider doseing micro bacter 7. Others on here can chime in to that but apparently its benificial to use with pellets

ruslicus
03-29-2013, 03:22 PM
Titus do you droton? Never heard about, have a link for with more info on this hydroton? How to build and benefit? For now I will run Pellets, Carbon and Skimmer will see what happens. I don't want to shut down pellets as it's been about a month running. I just opened it to clean some debris on cap of Pellets reactor. Hope that would not disturb the process :) Thank you guys for info. I will draw on your epertize if something goes wrong side.

Proteus
03-29-2013, 03:34 PM
You won't find info about hydroton in a reef tank. But u will find info on cryptic zones

Not related to you issue but since you may have a m t reactor:

Hydrton is small expanded Clay marble that are used in the hydrponics industry. Hydroton is inert and very porus. Making it a great material for natural biological filtration. It would be the same as live rock rubble in sump. But if you can keep it dark and have relitivly low flow you will create a breeding ground for sponges and small feather dusters to grow filtering out water. As you said you want to create a low nutrient system

I started this after ditching gfo and have had no negative affects. If you want more info ask Albert dao.He Is a pretty good guy

kien
03-29-2013, 09:38 PM
Good to see things are clearing up. I wouldn't stop feeding fish. If you are concerned about it then maybe reduce feeding to once a day?

Also, if you take your GFO off line be sure to check your phosphate reading regularly as you may find it climbing. BioPellets do not strip out phosphates all that well. They take out nitrate and phosphate in proportion to the "redfield ratio". In other words, lots of nitrate but not a as much phosphate. This is why a lot of people (myself included) run GFO in combination with bioPellets.

A few people do dose microbactor 7 with BioPellets but since you are currently having issues I would not add another variable. That is unless you are already dosing it :-). I have never dosed it myself so can't speak on its effectiveness (or lack of).

kien
03-29-2013, 09:41 PM
As for saving the red planet, I would first observe it. It could easily stabilize and start re-encrusting once it is happy again. If you're really paranoid or if it continues to lose tissue you can frag its tips. This is not always a guarantee though. Often times if it is sick the whole colony is sick even if you frag it :-(

ruslicus
03-30-2013, 04:01 PM
So day 2:

NO3 <0.25ppm RedSea Test
PO3 0.08 Red Sea Test and 0.08 Milwakee test
Ca 423ppm Hanna Test
Alk 8.7 Hanna Test
PH 7.8 Digital Milwakee Test (mrning)

As I can judge I have close to 0 NO3 but elevated PO3, which means my NO3 export is overkilling but PO3 stil persist. The water is better but still not crystl lear as used to be.
I m going to turn on GFO and change the media GFO and Carbon.
Still waiting for water test result from Denny to cross check. The plan is to chek all these measurements daily over a week and see dynamic.

Target to lower Alk to 8 and keep Ca at 420-450, To control PO3 nd PH within 7.8-8.2

My issue is SPS coloration and STN or RTN.

Any feedback and comments how to solve the issue? Thx

kien
03-30-2013, 04:59 PM
So day 2:

NO3 <0.25ppm RedSea Test
PO3 0.08 Red Sea Test and 0.08 Milwakee test
Ca 423ppm Hanna Test
Alk 8.7 Hanna Test
PH 7.8 Digital Milwakee Test (mrning)

As I can judge I have close to 0 NO3 but elevated PO3, which means my NO3 export is overkilling but PO3 stil persist. The water is better but still not crystl lear as used to be.
I m going to turn on GFO and change the media GFO and Carbon.
Still waiting for water test result from Denny to cross check. The plan is to chek all these measurements daily over a week and see dynamic.

Target to lower Alk to 8 and keep Ca at 420-450, To control PO3 nd PH within 7.8-8.2

My issue is SPS coloration and STN or RTN.

Any feedback and comments how to solve the issue? Thx

Your numbers across the board are actually looking pretty good today. NO3 and P04 while not absolutely zero are still not numbers that I would panic about. Looks like alk is on its way down and again, 8.7 is nothing to panic about. CA at 423 is perfect and pH at 7.8 this morning is fine too. My pH is sitting at 7.8 now and will continue to climb throughout the day until it tops out at about 8.3 sometimes 8.4 before it starts to drop again for the night. My recommendation there is to not fight your pH. Let it do what it's going to do.

Your BioPellets should continue to drop your nitrates and bringing GFO back online will drop your PO4 to zero in short order.

ruslicus
03-30-2013, 05:12 PM
I ust changed GFO media and Carbon media. will text PO3 from output of reactor in an hour to see if the reactor actually is working. I use 1cup of HG GFO, is it enough for 85-90gal water system? My concern isn't NO3 too low? talking about starving? should I dose some coral energy solution? but PO3 is too high... dilema!

ruslicus
03-31-2013, 02:23 AM
So my PH range during the day was 7.8 to 8.1. which I think is ok. My issue is even after change of GFO and checking the outlet from GFO rector I still get 0.04-0.08 PO3? any ideas how I get PO lowered? GFO doesn't look like working?

ruslicus
03-31-2013, 03:08 AM
Denny from Concept got back to me with following results:

alk : 8.53 vs mine 8.7
phos : 0.03 vs mine 0.08
nitrates : 0 vs mine <0.25
amonia: 0
calcium : 375 vs mine 430

My biggest concern Caclium and PO3 are big difference. What is the most accurate Test kit for PO3 and Calcium? Still my SPS are upset so should be a problem somewhere. Ideas?

ruslicus
04-02-2013, 02:57 AM
So water is crystal clear now, which is good. But big issue cannot drop PO3, at least based on Red Sea test kit. My numbers today:
1. Salinity 1.025
2. PO3 0.08
3. NO3 based on test kit it is negative :) can it be a problem for SPS coloration?
4. Ca 450
5. Alk 8.6
6. PH 7.9-8.2 during the day

My pocci still not puffy yet.

kien
04-02-2013, 03:53 PM
So water is crystal clear now, which is good. But big issue cannot drop PO3, at least based on Red Sea test kit. My numbers today:
1. Salinity 1.025
2. PO3 0.08
3. NO3 based on test kit it is negative :) can it be a problem for SPS coloration?
4. Ca 450
5. Alk 8.6
6. PH 7.9-8.2 during the day

My pocci still not puffy yet.

Good to hear about the water. That's progress. All other values look reasonable. Phosphates should continue to drop over the course of the week if you have just installed new GFO. Test again on the weekend to see where it's at. 0.08 is nothing to panic about though :-)

Pocci (and other corals) may take much longer to recover from whatever shocked them. Could be the cloudy water, could be the paramter swings. Who knows, but whatever it was, their recovery may be a long slow road no matter what course correction you do now.

ruslicus
04-02-2013, 05:17 PM
Kien you my mentor :) will follow your guideline! Thank you!

ruslicus
04-03-2013, 03:27 AM
So today I've got my Hanna PO3 checker and I am getting 0.03ppm which aligned to Denny's result. I used another Ca test Red Sea and I am getting 410ppm. Mine was showing 450ppm Should I start dosing a little bit Ca or keep testing couple of more days to confirm Ca is dropping? Alk dropped to 8.4, PH range 7.9-8.2.

kien
04-03-2013, 03:43 PM
So today I've got my Hanna PO3 checker and I am getting 0.03ppm which aligned to Denny's result. I used another Ca test Red Sea and I am getting 410ppm. Mine was showing 450ppm Should I start dosing a little bit Ca or keep testing couple of more days to confirm Ca is dropping? Alk dropped to 8.4, PH range 7.9-8.2.

And once again, all your numbers look just fine :-) P03 is reasonably low should continue to drop (although probably at a slower rate) from this point onward. Ca at 410 is great. What is your target? When I was dialing my Ca in I waited an entire water change cycle to see what the total drop was between water changes, and then calculated how much I needed to dose to compensate for the Ca drop in between water changes.

reefwars
04-03-2013, 04:23 PM
And once again, all your numbers look just fine :-) P03 is reasonably low should continue to drop (although probably at a slower rate) from this point onward. Ca at 410 is great. What is your target? When I was dialing my Ca in I waited an entire water change cycle to see what the total drop was between water changes, and then calculated how much I needed to dose to compensate for the Ca drop in between water changes.



im with kien , your water is perfectly fine overall i wouldnt be worried and would take a step back.

heres some ideas:

when you changed out the gfo its possible you stripped a bit too much phos too soon, seeing as how its your red planet that rtn'd it would make sense.

your tank is fairly new at about a couple months old plus a new higher bio load, that will take some time to adjust to.

it may be possible your cloudy water is a spawning from something:)

either way glad things are looking up bud;)

saltyair
04-03-2013, 06:35 PM
I have had cloudy water twice both times in the first year of my 75 gal.

the first time was due to a mini maxi spawning the second time was due to bacteria bloom @ the 5 month mark. took a few days to clear up using carbon.

mameroo2000
04-03-2013, 07:37 PM
Hi

I've got cloudy water last few days and it puzzles me. My Red Planet is loosing the skin. My parameters:
1. PH 8
2. PO4 0.06
3. Ca 530
4. Alk 9
5. Salinity 1.026
6. Temp 25C

Recently I added BioPellets Reactor less than a month and I am using Live phyto and live pods. Mainly my SPS reacted. Red planet lossing the skin. Acro loosing Blue color, Pocci doesn't extend much. Other corals like hummer, acans, zoa frogspawn are ok.

Any ideas? Did 20% WC still cloudy. Thx

It's your biopellets reactor, You have bacteria bloom
At this point you will have to remove the biopellets for 2~3 days
And add air pump as the oxygen level will drop and my kill your fishes
Do water change .
U can save your used biopallets media, just wash and dry the media
When you are ready for the biopellets make sure ad enough as directed or a bet less for your total water volium . And make sure 100% all the media tumble
If you using maxi jet model 600 or under you will have to upgraded to minumum 900 but 1200 is the best for this job

ruslicus
04-03-2013, 10:57 PM
Thank you everyone for comments. Will wait until next water change and see the water parameters and will decide afterall.

ruslicus
04-06-2013, 03:09 PM
So over the week I had:
PH range 7.8-8,2
Alk 8.7 dropped to 8.3
Ca 450 dropped to 370
PO3 0.08-0.00 and back to 0.06 - I think my feeding affects PO3.
NO3 is 0.00 all week.

It is time to do waterchange. Should I go ahead and do WC, how much? should I try to dose and keep Alk and Ca consistent? How I can drop Alk to 8.0? I am using H2O salt at 1.025 salinity.
My pocci finaly is puffy, but I noticed my Powder Blue Tang has itch I think. I gave her garlic veggie

Thank you

RuGlu6
04-06-2013, 03:16 PM
Last time i used BioPellets in established SPS tank I lost about $450 worth of my best SPS corals.
For the fish itch you may want to consider a UV light.
http://www.aquatraders.com/

As for the water change better to do more frequent but small water changes.

To drop Alkalinity add Magnezium http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/sc-ramg0600/SeaChem+Reef+Advantage+Magnesium++Additive+-+600+Gram.html
"Severely depleted levels of magnesium (below 800 mg/L) can cause depressed pH levels and an inability to maintain proper calcium levels. Magnesium depletion is commonly associated with the use of kalkwasser"

With small but frequent water changes your water chemistry will stabilize
.

Proteus
04-06-2013, 03:37 PM
Not sure how big your system is but I do two 5 gal WC a week on a 30g system and works great....for now

But as coral grows it will deplete the major three a lot more

And yes your feeding does affect po4. Try target feeding rather than broadcast