Advice on HLLE

[Stones]

Hi folks, it's been a pretty sad week or two for my reef tank. I had noticed my yellow tang looking not so fantastic for a few weeks prior but I thought this was just stress seeing as he's at the very bottom of the pecking order due to his size. It's face was a bit whiter than normal and its lateral line was sort of off white in color. However, about 2 weeks ago I noticed some small, off white pits starting to form behind the eyes of my blueface angel.

I've been in this hobby for nearly a decade and I've never had a fish come down with HLLE before. The only place I had ever seen it before was at the Winnipeg Casino's tunnel aquarium and anyone else who has been there can vouch that it's not a pretty sight. I've had this particular angel for ~3 years and it has grown from ~2.5" to ~7" in this time frame. This is by and far the fattest fish in my tank as it's probably pushing 1.5" thick at the belly.

Here are some pics of the fish from today illustrating what I believe is HLLE.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g47/prestieb/IMG_3483_zpsca141b4e.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g47/prestieb/IMG_3490_zps21842a08.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g47/prestieb/IMG_3501_zps05d30940.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g47/prestieb/IMG_3489_zpsec2493aa.jpg

Now for some background information. I haven't added any fish to this tank for over a year and the only recent additions have been some frags I brought in that were thoroughly bathed in interceptor for 12 hours and then dipped in an iodine based pest solution prior to entering the tank. In my mind, this rules out the possibility of the HLLE being caused by something that I recently introduced. The symptoms also only started 2 weeks ago when the frags were introduced ~2 months ago. All other fish besides the blueface angel and the yellow tang aren't showing any signs of HLLE which is strange since I have 4 other tangs in the tank and the powder blue is usually the canary in the coal mine when it comes to any disease, parasite or random alignment of the stars that cause these fish to randomly give up the ghost.

Currently I have zero nitrates and 0.14 ppm phosphates but the increased phosphates are likely due to the increased feedings I've implemented to try and help the fish recover. Approximately 1 year ago I had a partial crash caused by a nitrate spike that I never fully got under control until Christmas of this year. The tank has been nutrient free for ~3 months and while there were nutrients present, this fish showed no signs or symptoms of HLLE.

Prior to the angel developing HLLE I was feeding a mixture of Ocean Nutrition Formula 2 pellets, New Life Spectrum Marine formula pellets and PE mysis shrimp once per day. I was also giving the fish a half sheet of green nori or a New Era Marine grazer wafer once or twice a week when I was home from work.

After the onset of the HLLE, I've upped the feedings to twice per day and also added Ocean Nutrition Formula 1 to the mix. I've also been soaking the 3 different pellets and PE mysis in Selcon and a garlic extract prior to feeding. I've been giving a 1/4 sheet of green nori, red nori and purple nori per day also as I'm now back at home until road bans are lifted after the snow melts.

From what I've read on numerous forums and reefing articles, HLLE is a bit of an enigma. No one really knows the cause of it but it is usually associated with a poor diet, vitamin deficiency, poor water quality, or use of activated carbon. It seems the jury is still on the fence regarding whether or not stray voltage can be the culprit.

Seeing as I've had this fish for a very long time and it has been thriving since day 1 in the tank, I didn't believe it could be a poor diet or vitamin deficiency causing the HLLE. This fish didn't show any symptoms of HLLE when my nitrates were ~20 ppm last year and I personally know people that keep large angels in FOWLR systems in excess of 50 ppm nitrates with no issues. I've also run activated carbon in all of my tanks for the past 9 years and never had an issue before but to be safe, I dumped out my reactor of ROX carbon and am now running only HC GFO.

I also decided I should check for stray voltage. Right off the bat I was getting 48V on the multimeter which really doesn't mean anything seeing as all magnetically driven pumps will generate a small electric field when submerged in saltwater as well as small amount of voltage gets generated via friction of the salt water moving through the PVC pipes. I then switched the multimeter over to AC current and got a reading of 0.36 Amps. Although not a whole lot of current (I couldn't feel it with my hands in the tank), this was bad news so I knew I had a shorted out device somewhere. Turns out it was my mag 18 return pump which after swapping it out with my spare, the multimeter was reading 0.00 Amps in the water.

It's now been 2 weeks since I first noticed the HLLE starting and swapped out the return pump as well as increased the feedings/soaked in vitamins and garlic extract. The yellow tang has since regained much of its coloration and is looking significantly more vibrant every day. The HLLE in the blueface angel however seems to be slowly progressing and getting worse despite my efforts.

Obviously I'd like to stop the progression of the HLLE and hope that the fish can recover without much permanent scarring as the pits aren't too deep at the moment. I'm at a bit of a loss to explain why the HLLE hasn't reversed and I'm very concerned for the wellbeing of this fish. It is definitely the main showpiece fish in my tank and I love having a large angel in a reef tank as you don't see that too terribly often. The fish is still eating with gusto and bullying all of its tankmates which is par for the course. I haven't observed any white or stringy feces (to rule out other possible causes) but I've also not had the time to spend watching and waiting for the fish to have a bowel movement.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I'm planning on ordering some Brightwell Aquatics multivitamins, vitamin C and AngelElixor supplements shortly to soak the food in as well in hopes to turn this condition around. This just goes to show that no matter how long you've been in the hobby for and how much you think you know, there is always something out there that can really rain on your parade...

[George]

That's a beautiful blue face you have there. I am an angel nut myself so I am glad some one likes angel fish as much as I do.
Apparently you have done you research and as you said in your post no smoking gun has been found for HLLE.
I just wanted to throw out 2 suggestions here:
1. Diet. Sponges and tunicates are their primary diets in the wild. The only food that has sponges as the ingredient is ON angel formula. Unfortunately it's not available in Canada. You probably have to bring it from the states by yourself somehow. I also read a lot about angelixir and concluded that it's another snake oil.
2. Environment. From my reading of all HLLE stories. Sometime it could be cured by switching tanks. See if you have another tank or someone else's tank to host the angel for some time. Not sure what's in the original tanks that caused the HLLE.
Good luck and keep us posted.

[gregzz4]

IMHO, there are 2 things that cause HLLE;
-Lack of trace elements ( usually caused by over-use of carbon )
-Carbon introduction to the DT

If I'm wrong, I hope someone will chime in :smile:

I'd suggest you pick up some trace elements for the HLLE, and keep your Carbon and GFO running
These 2 are readily available to me, so I linked them for you

Brightwell (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=bw-kvm0500)

Zeovit (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=zv-etrace500)

From what I've read, you can usually run your tank with both reactors running without issue, but there are some cases/times when the trace elements can be stripped enough to show up on your fishies

The Carbon is the culprit when you get HLLE in tangs, BUT, it's usually caused by carbon entering the DT, not by the use of carbon
Make sure you thoroughly rinse your carbon before turning your reactor on.
If this helps at all, I put my media in a bag and wash it out with RO water, under my RO spout in a bucket, until it runs clear. Sometimes it takes 10g to rinse the media, but it's worth it
When I put my reactor back online, I run the outlet into my socks for a couple mins. That's it

Dose the linked trace elements and all should be good

Of course, I'm just a newb, so take this for what it is ... my 5 cents :smile:

[gregzz4]

Environment. From my reading of all HLLE stories. Sometime it could be cured by switching tanks
Good point George

This works for many when the original tank is contaminated with carbon particulates

Large water changes and thorough rinsing of new carbon takes care of the issue, and the fish can stay in their tank

[Stones]

That's a beautiful blue face you have there. I am an angel nut myself so I am glad some one likes angel fish as much as I do.
Apparently you have done you research and as you said in your post no smoking gun has been found for HLLE.
I just wanted to throw out 2 suggestions here:
1. Diet. Sponges and tunicates are their primary diets in the wild. The only food that has sponges as the ingredient is ON angel formula. Unfortunately it's not available in Canada. You probably have to bring it from the states by yourself somehow. I also read a lot about angelixir and concluded that it's another snake oil.
2. Environment. From my reading of all HLLE stories. Sometime it could be cured by switching tanks. See if you have another tank or someone else's tank to host the angel for some time. Not sure what's in the original tanks that caused the HLLE.
Good luck and keep us posted.

Thanks for the information. Large angelfish are definitely my favorite and I may have shut down my system in the past had I not had one of these beauties in my tank to keep me going.

Too bad about the Angelelixor being snake oil. I was hoping that would be the silver bullet to nip the HLLE in the butt.

I work on the SK/ND border so I can get some of the ON angel formula shipped to my package holding facility when I'm back to work. Sadly that might be July this year going by the current weather and the current record snowfall we have sitting on the ground.

Switching tanks will not be an option. There is no way I could net this fish and all of my SPS are too close to the glass and eurobrace to allow for a large fish trap to be put into the tank. I'll just have to take whatever measures I can to treat the fish in tank if possible.

IMHO, there are 2 things that cause HLLE;
-Lack of trace elements ( usually caused by over-use of carbon )
-Carbon introduction to the DT

If I'm wrong, I hope someone will chime in :smile:

I'd suggest you pick up some trace elements for the HLLE, and keep your Carbon and GFO running
These 2 are readily available to me, so I linked them for you

Brightwell (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=bw-kvm0500)

Zeovit (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=zv-etrace500)

From what I've read, you can usually run your tank with both reactors running without issue, but there are some cases/times when the trace elements can be stripped enough to show up on your fishies

The Carbon is the culprit when you get HLLE in tangs, BUT, it's usually caused by carbon entering the DT, not by the use of carbon
Make sure you thoroughly rinse your carbon before turning your reactor on.
If this helps at all, I put my media in a bag and wash it out with RO water, under my RO spout in a bucket, until it runs clear. Sometimes it takes 10g to rinse the media, but it's worth it
When I put my reactor back online, I run the outlet into my socks for a couple mins. That's it

Dose the linked trace elements and all should be good

Of course, I'm just a newb, so take this for what it is ... my 5 cents :smile:

Thanks for the information as well. Since I overskim slightly (Vertex Alpha 250) I usually add trace elements once per week or whenever I'm back home from work along with Strontium, iron, manganese, iodine and marine snow. I've been using the kent line of additives for years but recently started switching over to Brightwell anyways. I'll order up some of the brightwell additives and start dosing those instead and see if that makes a difference.

I did recently change out my carbon about 3 weeks ago just prior to the symptoms showing up so I wonder if I didn't accidentally get a bunch of fine particulates into the DT. I always fill my reactor with carbon and then run water through it in my sink for 5-10 minutes until the water runs clear while keeping the carbon tumbling in the reactor. I also have the reactor draining into a filter sock in the sump but it's a mesh sock so the real fine particulates could have still made it into the tank.

In light of this, I'll try to get in as many water changes as I can and use a fine felt filter sock to help remove any carbon particulates from the water column.

Thanks for the additional information and I'll keep you posted on the status of the fish. Hopefully this information can help shed some light on HLLE for any others that have similar problems down the road.

[Madreefer]

I'm sure you've already seen this as it sounds like you've done your research. But thought i'd post just in case.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php

[pinkreef]

i would pull any carbon out and reduce any stress to the fish add selcon to food or garlic
just some ideas

[phreezee]

Try feeding brocolli if he'll eat it, my angels certainly do. Does the trick for my tangs.

[spit.fire]

Try feeding brocolli if he'll eat it, my angels certainly do. Does the trick for my tangs.

I found all my fish would eat zucchini, even my cleaner wrasse

[fishoholic]

My king angel gets it, carbon IME has nothing to do with it. I haven't changed out my carbon in almost a year and never noticed it getting worse when I did in the past. I have high nitrates and phosphates so I always though that might have something to do with it.

The one thing I noticed that helped was feeding a bit of nori every day. When I fed the nori every day for over a month I noticed it pretty much completely healed up. Then I cut back to 3-4 times a week. After awhile I ran out of nori and didn't get to the store for awhile and noticed the HLLE not only came back but was worse then before. Now I try to remember to feed nori more often but lately I've been lazy and slacking with my tank so my poor angel still has it.

[LeanneP]

IMHO, there are 2 things that cause HLLE;
-Lack of trace elements ( usually caused by over-use of carbon )
-Carbon introduction to the DT

If I'm wrong, I hope someone will chime in :smile:

I'd suggest you pick up some trace elements for the HLLE, and keep your Carbon and GFO running
These 2 are readily available to me, so I linked them for you

Brightwell (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=bw-kvm0500)

Zeovit (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=zv-etrace500)

From what I've read, you can usually run your tank with both reactors running without issue, but there are some cases/times when the trace elements can be stripped enough to show up on your fishies

The Carbon is the culprit when you get HLLE in tangs, BUT, it's usually caused by carbon entering the DT, not by the use of carbon
Make sure you thoroughly rinse your carbon before turning your reactor on.
If this helps at all, I put my media in a bag and wash it out with RO water, under my RO spout in a bucket, until it runs clear. Sometimes it takes 10g to rinse the media, but it's worth it
When I put my reactor back online, I run the outlet into my socks for a couple mins. That's it

Dose the linked trace elements and all should be good

Of course, I'm just a newb, so take this for what it is ... my 5 cents :smile:

Good information Greg. I dòn`t use carbon all the time but I will be more careful about rinsing it when I do.

Leanne

[Stones]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Sounds like I have been on the right track with upping the feedings, soaking in garlic/selcon and giving the fish more types of nori and more often.

After reading about the possibility of carbon causing HLLE, I removed all of my carbon from the reactor as a precaution. Even though I've been running carbon for years with no ill effects, I'm willing to give it a try to help speed the recovery of this fish. I'll also be running a very fine felt filter sock for the next few weeks to help remove any residual carbon that may have entered the display tank after changing out the media a few weeks ago.

For those of you feeding broccoli or zucchini, do you cook it to soften it up prior to feeding or just wash it well and toss it in?

My king angel gets it, carbon IME has nothing to do with it. I haven't changed out my carbon in almost a year and never noticed it getting worse when I did in the past. I have high nitrates and phosphates so I always though that might have something to do with it.

The one thing I noticed that helped was feeding a bit of nori every day. When I fed the nori every day for over a month I noticed it pretty much completely healed up. Then I cut back to 3-4 times a week. After awhile I ran out of nori and didn't get to the store for awhile and noticed the HLLE not only came back but was worse then before. Now I try to remember to feed nori more often but lately I've been lazy and slacking with my tank so my poor angel still has it.

Thanks for the info Laurie. Did your king angel recover fairly well from its bout of HLLE? I'm worried about permanent scarring on my blueface as the HLLE and associated pits seem to be getting progressively deeper. I'll definitely have my wife start feeding nori every day when I'm away from home at work in order to prevent this from happening again but in the mean time I guess I'll just keep the feedings up and feed extra nori.

[gregzz4]

When I fed my FW fish vegetables, I blanched (http://www.wikihow.com/Blanch-Broccoli) them
The link is a bit of a more intensive method, but much better than just throwing them in the microwave
Use RO water, not tap water, if possible

What you're doing is softening the raw veggies without losing the nutrients

[fishoholic]

Thanks for the info Laurie. Did your king angel recover fairly well from its bout of HLLE? I'm worried about permanent scarring on my blueface as the HLLE and associated pits seem to be getting progressively deeper. I'll definitely have my wife start feeding nori every day when I'm away from home at work in order to prevent this from happening again but in the mean time I guess I'll just keep the feedings up and feed extra nori.

Yes he did. Maybe a tiny bit of pitting that was barely noticeable but he pretty much fully healed. Unfortunately when the nori ran out and I got lazy about buying more it came back with a vengeance after a few weeks. My goal for myself is to feed nori everyday to help clear it up again. My problem is my big trigger loves the nori so he often gets it before the angel and tries to take my fingers off in the process. Part of the reason I'm not motivated to feed it daily.

[i have crabs]

I have a yellow tang that got it about 8 years ago, happend after a large ich outbreak I did the low salinity thing and ended up having nitrates go through the roof from die off and that's when it started for me I cleaned up the water and started feeding selcon and other vitamin additives and it stopped but she is badly scared up and it never healed, she has the color back but the scaring got pretty bad,

[Stones]

Yes he did. Maybe a tiny bit of pitting that was barely noticeable but he pretty much fully healed. Unfortunately when the nori ran out and I got lazy about buying more it came back with a vengeance after a few weeks. My goal for myself is to feed nori everyday to help clear it up again. My problem is my big trigger loves the nori so he often gets it before the angel and tries to take my fingers off in the process. Part of the reason I'm not motivated to feed it daily.

Thanks Laurie. Since the pitting isn't very deep on the blueface as of yet, I'm hoping it can make a full recovery without much permanent scarring. Like your situation, I've got 5 other large tangs and a bluethroat trigger that all want in on the nori making it difficult for the blueface to get the majority of the feeding. An entire sheet of nori pretty much goes missing within 30 seconds of entering the tank.

I have a yellow tang that got it about 8 years ago, happend after a large ich outbreak I did the low salinity thing and ended up having nitrates go through the roof from die off and that's when it started for me I cleaned up the water and started feeding selcon and other vitamin additives and it stopped but she is badly scared up and it never healed, she has the color back but the scaring got pretty bad,

Sorry to hear your yellow tang suffered permanent damage. My yellow tang which also suffered minor HLLE symptoms has pretty much fully recovered aside from a scarred dorsal fine. Not sure if this was a result of the HLLE itself but I'm guessing it was a fin nip from one of the other fish that never healed properly due to the HLLE being present.