Where to find CO2 cylinders (other than LFS or MO)

[Delphinus]

Wondering where people could go to get CO₂ cylinders (if not at LFS). Been trying some welding supply shops, CO₂ supply, medical O₂ supply places, but not really having a huge success rate.

Do CO₂ cylinders ever come up for sale used (there has to be a market other than aquaria, i.e. beverage dispensers)? I called a few places and got laughed at when I asked if they had (or knew of) any second-hand cylinders. Is it really all that absurd a notion?

Surely I'm just calling the wrong places! Someone tell me what category to look up in the yellow pages, PleaseAndThankYou_(tm)??

[Acro]

Try a fire protection company

[ldzielak]

Delphinus,

I'm sure you can find a Praxair or Air Liquid place to "rent" a tank from for a year. It will probably be a 20lbs tank. Then when you use it, they just swap the tank. Some places it's hard to find refills if you pruchase you own tank. Make sure it's food grade, not indutrial, they could have some oil "lubrication" in the industrial.

Lee

[Delphinus]

Is it better to rent the tanks then? I actually spoke to both Praxair and Air Liquide (first places I called) and these neither were really amenable to selling a tank. No wait I'm remembering this wrong. I can't remember the price Air Liquide gave me, but I do remember being a bit horrified. When I asked about second-hand cylinders they just laughed. Praxair won't sell a cylinder, but will happily rent one out without a regulator, so that's still an additional cost.

I found one place that sells a 20lb. cylinder with product and regulator for $300. I then found a guy who was willing to sell me an empty tank (he has two) for $180. But no product, no regulator. So add $150 for regulator/solenoid/needle valve, another $20-30 for a fillup CO₂ and already the new tank for $300 is a better deal.

Is this seriously right? For real? It has to be this expensive???

What do most people do? I honestly thought most people were buying their cylinders not renting them.

[ 13 August 2002, 17:55: Message edited by: delphinus ]

[clintyiu]

My 15# cylinder was about $170+/- and my pressure regulator was about $75 both prices include tax. They are both from Liquide Air. The sales person had to change the fitting on the pressure reg. to fit the CO2 cylinder.

You don't actually own any particular cylinder so don't count on it being a conversational piece in your living room. They're rusty and ugly. When your current bottle runs out you exchange it for a full one for ~$20 worth of CO2. This is part of the reason you cannot get a used cylinder. Also, like propane tanks, they have to be pressure tested and approved every ten years.

In my case 15# lasts about a year for both my reef and planted tank. This is way less expensive than leasing the bottle for $150 every year.

Becareful with custom cylinders like that from Sera. You will only get it refilled by a petshop. And you need to call ahead to have a full bottle ready for exchange. CO2 companies will refill for you if you leave it with them for a few days but they will only fill the bottle if it is CSA approved/pressure tested. Lots of hassles...

I heard that some hydroponics shops have CO2 exchange available but that was a while ago. Serious "reefers" use CO2 generators these days.

HTH
Clint

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by clintyiu:
You don't actually own any particular cylinder so don't count on it being a conversational piece in your living room.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">this is not nessarly true, go to fire extingusher places, home brew places, and liquid air (or simular types of companies) ask if they have any tanks that are privat sales. I got a 14lb tank for 100.00 including the fill and it is a nice blue.. when I need it filled I take it to a fire extinguisher place and they wll fill it in 5 min while I wait. There are tones of extinguishers out there that are getting cleaned up and re tested and then released into the home brew world. you don't realy have to worry about oils and stuff in your co2 cylenders unless it is filled at a place like a paint ball refill whare they add oil to lubracate the guns.. most CO2 is cleen (used for shielding gas when wielding or putting out fires... both of which require cleen co2) but if you want to be safe go to a home brew and buy one of there.. they are owned usaly and they are to food standard. (but I can tell you when I worked at winekitz and we ordered CO2, we ordered it from the same places that wielders and other companies order theres from..

Steve

[Delphinus]

Wine Kitz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A winemaking place or a fire extinguisher place. I haven't tried any of these yet.

Ooh, OK, I have a renewed enthusiasm to call a few more places and see what I can find.

Hey, um, what about a used scuba tank? Would that work?

BTW, I assuming there is a REALLY good reason I can't just go to Canadian Tire and pick me up a propane tank and use that? Wrong fittings maybe?

[Terrance Wong]

I'm also looking for a CO2 system for a calcium reactor. J&L sells a 10 lb with one of their packages, but I haven't asked Allen/John how much more a 20 lb tank would cost.

I wouldn't mind some info if you find a cost of a 20 lb tank.

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by delphinus:
Wine Kitz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A winemaking place or a fire extinguisher place. I haven't tried any of these yet.

Ooh, OK, I have a renewed enthusiasm to call a few more places and see what I can find.

Hey, um, what about a used scuba tank? Would that work?

BTW, I assuming there is a REALLY good reason I can't just go to Canadian Tire and pick me up a propane tank and use that? Wrong fittings maybe?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">well the PSI rating of a propane tank is way lower than a CO2 cylinder and it would probably explode when they tried to fill it :D

Steve

[Shadetree]

I bought a brand new 5 lb CO2 cylinder from this place http://www.kmstools.com/ for $100 + tax. They also sell larger ones. You do have to find a place that will refill your tank while you wait, there is only one place in Vancouver that I could find and that is Liquid Air's head office.

Scott

[Aquattro]

I also bought mine used from a welding supply company. 10 pound for $100. Costs about $15 to fill while I wait at the fire extinguisher place. When/if you buy a used tank, make sure it has been hydro tested. After inspection, they're stamped for 5 years worth of use before retesting.

[clintyiu]

Scott,

Is Air Liquide's head office in South Vancouver? That's where I bought my stuff. They had new 5 lb cylinders too at the time but considering a fill costs the same regardless of cylinder weight the salesman suggested a larger 15lb tank.

Do they charge for pressure testing?

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by clintyiu:

Do they charge for pressure testing?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I paied 35.00 for a pressur test and a new valve (this was included in the 100.00 cost of the bottle) so iff you find a 20lb co2 fire extinguisher for cheep this is all it would cost you to get it tested and valved depending on prices in your area.

Steve

[Delphinus]

Ok, I am totally out of my element here. Can someone please answer me the following:

Why do people purchase their cylinders? Most places I am calling are outright hostile to the idea that a person may ever want to buy one. Air Liquide went so far to tell me "it is IMPOSSIBLE to purchase the cylinders in Canada. You HAVE to rent them." So, who's all renting their cylinders for their reactors? Are you renting or owning the cylinder? If not renting, why not? What is the advantage of owning over renting?

I had no idea it had to be this difficult to get into a calcium reactor. I found a Fire Extinguisher place that could sell me a 15lb cylinder hydrostatic tested and certified to 3000lbs. for $50, but no valve. As they are a "Fire Extinguisher" place they cannot provide me with anything but a "fire extinguisher" type valve. (For one thing it's a levered type valve, not a gate type valve, I suppose.) So I call places like Air Liquide, BOC, Praxair, and they're all "well why would you want to buy a valve? The cylinders that you RENT come with valves. And obviously you are RENTING your cylinder because we REFUSE to sell you a cylinder." So great. Even if I find a cylinder, I now cannot purchase the valve from these guys. And I am not calling some fly-by-night outfit either. These are BOC, Praxair, Air Liquide that are telling me this. I can't beleive I am the first person to be calling these places with a calcium reactor application in mind.

I must be asking the wrong questions still when I call these places. Oh well, the wine brew places are about to open (I don't think they open before 11 out here) so I can start calling them and enter myself into a whole new world of frustration (I can just see it now "why do you want to BUY a cylinder? You must be STOOOPID!!!")

sigh .... Why does it have to be this difficult?

[Canadian Man]

Keep on trucking Tony, I'm behind you all the way!
With a smile and grin on my face. :D

[Aquattro]

Tony, I don't know what rental costs are, but unless they're dirt cheap, it is more cost effective to OWN the tank. Also, if you rent and they just replace the tank with gas in it, you have no idea what was in the tank they give you. Maybe it was under water or had oil in it. In Victoria, I could probably find a tank a week for sale. Hydroponics, brewing, welding and fire extinguisher companies all deal with CO2 tanks.If you go to a place here to rent one for your tank, they ask why you don't just buy your own!! Saves money in the long run and you don't keep getting some rusty old tank with who knows what in it.

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Another way to find a reliable CO2 source is to pop by a food court or a fast food restaurant and ask where they got the CO2 from. Pop distributors and professional food equipment retailers should also know where to get your CO2 stuff. Hydroponics also should know too.

Yes CO2 systems are expensive...that's why calcium reactors setups are so expensive !!!

Clint...why did Air Liquid have to change the fiting on the regulator to fit on to your tank ? CO2 valves are design to fit on CO2 regulators. That way...you can't use a argon regulator on CO2 (very similar products...buy not quite) or a oxygen regulator on a acetylene tank smile.gif Seems kind of odd....hmmm.....

- Victor.

[Delphinus]

Well I'm resigned to the fact this will be expensive, but I guess my question is, does it have to be $300 expensive just for the cylinder? Are you telling me that's what everyone who has a cylinder has paid? Because that's sure not the sense I'm getting from you guys. If I'm wrong, please tell me, so I'm not barking up the wrong tree here. If there's a tank per week for sale in Victoria in the $100 range then it literally is worth my while to make the drive out there and pick me up the tank then to continue banging my head against the brick wall I've got over here. Even if I spend $100 on gas I'm still ahead of the game, and plus I get another visit to the old preferred stomping grounds anyways out of it.

[ldzielak]

If you build your own reactor, the way I look at it the CO2 system is the biggest expense. From what I could find when I was looking regulators were $100+ depending on guages and such. I was lucky that my dad had a reg I could use. I did have to purchase the correct fitting for the tank, most regulators are not gas specific.

Then I needed a tank. Up here in Campbell River, I could not find any local refill places if I had my own tank. So I went to Praxair, used my company name and rented a tank for a year $65. Then each refill was $36 (I have had a guage and a solenoid fail, so this has cost me more than I expect, I should get more than a year out of a 20lbs tank!!) I was going to get a 5lb tank from KMS, but I wouldn't be able to refill it up here. So now I'm stuck with renting for now.

Also consider where you want to put the tank. 20lbs rental are big and ugly. I can just fit it on my reactor/skimmer shelf.

Lee

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by reefburnaby:
Hi,

That way...you can't use a argon regulator on CO2 (very similar products...buy not quite) or a oxygen regulator on a acetylene tank smile.gif Seems kind of odd....hmmm.....

- Victor.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Victor the different thread and mounting types are for industry, it is to prevent acadently hooking up a flamable gas whare you want a inert gas which could cause a explosion... but it is perfectly fine to use a "Mixed gas" regulator on a co2 tank for our purposes.. infact they make adaptors for different types of regulators to go to different types of tanks..

Tony.. the reason they want you to rent the bottel is simple.. conveniance.. basicly they charge you the amount you would pay to buy a new bottle but when you need it filled you just exchange your empty bottle for a new one.. less down time for you and the company can let 50 or 100 bottles build up and just spend 1 day refilling instead of setting up every hour to do it.. also a lot of companies deliver so when they pick up the empty the drop off a full this way only one trip.

I sugest you go buy that fire extinguisher for 50.00 , clean it up and paint it blue.. then call liquid air or who ever and ask how much a hysrostat test, new co2 valve and a fill would cost.. a 5, 10, 15, 20 lb fire extinguisher and a comercial co2 canister have the same throat threads and are interchangable as co2 tanks. also you could try the home brew story when you talk to thease guys.. tell them you purchased a co2 tank for carbonating your beer.. they should know all about this..

Steve

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Thanks Steve for the info. I didn't think you could use the mix gas regulator on CO2. Each type of gas has their own internal pressure and each regulator is design for a specific pressure level. It's been a while since I used a cutting torch, so I may have forgoten something.

Tony,

$300 for a tank!! What a rip off. I think it is best to follow Steve's advice and use that $50 cylinder. The trick is to find that valve. Well...Liquid Air has it (they need to have it). Just tell them that you have a cylinder and you just need the valve because the valve is too old (or some excuse like that). Stores that speciallize in wielding (MIG) should be able to help you too, but you may need to special order the part. BTW, if you can't find a $100 regulator around your area, J&L sells them for about $70.

I had a rough time finding my CO2 for a good price.

Good Luck.

- Victor.

[Troy F]

Air Liquide sells a 10 (I think) lb cylinder for $130 with a free fill. It costs $30 dollars to have an old tank tested.

[Delphinus]

The guy that I spoke to at Air Liquide today was quite adamant that I was incorrect that they sold cylinders anywhere in Canada. He went so far as to tell me I could not purchase these things anywhere within the country. He was the one who also wouldn't sell me a valve, because why would I need a valve if I rented a cylinder. :rolleyes: Obviously, your Air Liquide is a fair bit easier to deal with than the one I called. Oh well..

[Troy F]

Tony I'll give them a call tomorrow and confirm and let you know.

[StirCrazy]

weird, it was Air Liquide that I got my regulator from here, it was a privat sale from one of the employes who is into fresh water planted tanks so we had a good chat..

I would call around to fire extinguisher places and pretend you are looking for a tank for carbonating beer..

Steve

[Delphinus]

My only guess is that they must make a lot of money off rentals, and not a lot of money off private sales. Oh well. I think I'm going to try the fire extinguisher idea (look into it some more) and try the OTHER Air Liquide office in town to see if I can get a valve and a hydrostatic test. (There are two. If I call the same place again the guy will remember me since it's been the same guy I've talked to twice in a row now.) I'll play up the beer brewing angle. Thanks for the suggestions guys I really appreciate it.

[fishboy]

Wow, I just went through the same hassles! I got so upset with being lied to by air liquide, prax air etc. that I refuse to deal with them. By the time you add all the pieces in, their prices aren't cheap and I can do without the attitude.

I ended up buying the 10 lb. bottle, regulator, solenoid and needle valve package from J&L for $339. They also gave me advice on how to set it up and what kind of problems to expect.

I had the bottle filled at Fraser Valley Fire Extinguisher in Abbotsford for $18.50. They said they would need the bottle over night but called me a few hours later and said it was ready for pick-up.

In the end I have all new parts, good service from where I bought them and it cost about the same as the used tank and hassel from the gas supply stores.

JMHO

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by delphinus:
Oh well. I think I'm going to try the fire extinguisher idea (look into it some more) and try the OTHER Air Liquide office in town to see if I can get a valve and a hydrostatic test. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">what I would do is drive down there, make sure it looks like a parts store not a head office and take to one of the workers inside.. usaly places like this only rent and that is policy. what you want to ask is if they know (anywhare you can get / anyone who is selling) a co2 bottle you can use for carbonating beer. they tend to be more responcive in person than over the phone I find and they also show more intrest in Beer than fish for some reason ;)

you have to watch when you call as usaly the person answering phones only knows the main info of the bussniss and nothing else.. for instance I was calling around and the air Liquide here said they didn't have anything like that but there was a guy that worked there and had fish and maby I should take to him.. so I went down and talked to him and found out they have 6 bottles in the back that are owned by persons and not the company and are cash sales..

Steve

[Islander]

Steve, Where do you pick up the CO2 Cylinder?
can you please PM me the info?

Thanks,
Ken

[JoJo]

Hey Guys,

The valve you're talking about, is it the shut off valve usually found on a co2 cylinder?? I have a 2lb cylinder ,from a Sodamate pop machine, that is fitted with a brass valve that has a spring loaded pin in the middle. If the pin is pressed in, co2 flows and shuts off when released. In order for me to mount the regulators onto the cylinder, I must first change this valve. Where should I go to obtain one?? Thanks!!

[MitchM]

We're dealing with 900 - 1000 psi here....

I think that the LAST thing anyone would want is something cheap and possibly dangerous.

Get a certified tank, don't muck around with DIY.

IMO, made-for-aquarium set-ups are overpriced.

Mitch ;)

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by Carpentersreef:
We're dealing with 900 - 1000 psi here....

I think that the LAST thing anyone would want is something cheap and possibly dangerous.

Get a certified tank, don't muck around with DIY.

Mitch ;) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">um, the only type of tank we are talking about IS a certified tank Mitch, you cannot get a non certified tank filled.. no one is talking about making a tank, only getting a tank that was say a fire extinguisher and having it hydrostated and re-valved (which is the certification)

JoJo, no that is not the valve we are talking about.. we are talking about a normal high pressure valve, if you open it it will release all your co2. the sodamystic (or how ever it is spelt) bottle went through my head but it is realy to small, and you pay to much to fill them.

Steve

[ 15 August 2002, 06:28: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]

[MitchM]

Steve, I realize that.
Sometimes in our quest to not get ripped off, the safety factor is sometimes forgotten about... ;)

I'm not familiar with the contents and testing procedures of fire extinguishers, but I do know that some of them are "one time use only".

I would hate to hear of "someone's friend" replacing a valve, and "someone I know who works in a welding supply place" filling a poorly certified tank, only to have an unfortunate accident happen.

Mitch :cool:

[Delphinus]

The fire extinguisher cylinders at the place I was talking to would be hydrostatic tested and certified to 3000lbs. of pressure. That sounded pretty impressive to me over the phone, but Jayson at SWC told me that if it's "only 3000 lbs." then it actually isn't good enough?? Exactly what rating do I need the tanks certified to, can anyone tell me that?

It seems to me that no matter which way I slice it, this is an almost $400 proposition. Ouch, I don't have that. I was hoping to spend about $400 at the end of the day which included the reactor itself; not something closer to a grand. J&L's tanks look pretty good but it's $340 with reg, needle valve and solenoid, they told me to add another $30 to make it a 20lb. cylinder. If in town I say get a used 20lb. cylinder which the best price I found was $180, I'd still have to buy the reg., needle valve and solenoid and the best price I could find on that is SWC for $150 so $180 + $150 = $330 so for a savings of $40 to go with a second-hand cylinder when comparing apples to apples. Call me crazy but the J&L solution looks a lot prettier of those two options. So before the reactor is even LOOKED at I've spent nearly $400. Wow. So you can probably appreciate how attractive that fire extinguisher looks right now; otherwise I guess I better start saving, it's going to be a while before this ever becomes a reality.

Anyone sick and tired of having a calcium reactor that they want to sell off for cheap? Heh heh.. ;)

PS. Mitch, that behemoth is 70lbs.?? Wow, no wonder it hurt when it fell on my toe when we moved it ;) How long does that last you between fills?

[JoJo]

Thanks Steve!

we are talking about a normal high pressure valve, if you open it it will release all your co2. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's the valve meant. My tank does have a high pressure valve. However, unlike the one you've mentioned where you just turn the dial/handle like a faucet to release the co2, the one on my tank releases co2 when it is mounted to the soda machine. The spring loaded pin in the valve is depressed by a nozzle in the soda machine which releases the co2 into the unit. Unfortunately, my regulators doesn't screw on to this valve. That's why I need to have it replaced.

As to the size of the tank being too small, It is just for testing purposes. I was given the regulators, needle valve as well as the tank. I figure would build a reactor and make sure it works before investing in a larger tank.

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by delphinus:
Jayson at SWC told me that if it's "only 3000 lbs." then it actually isn't good enough?? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">um this doesent make sence at all, when you get a bottled filled it is only 2000lbs, or less, usaly for co2.. infact if you look at a regulator 2000lb and up is red zone so a 3000lb tested bottle is more than adaquat.. I don't know what kind of bottle Jason is selling that have a higher rating than that, but I woulden't waist the extra money on it when it isn't needed..

Mitch, no problem man, just the way you worded that caught me off guard hehe.. you almost had me wondering if I could make a bottle :D :D

JoJo, I remember the bottles you are talking about but I can't remember if they have a standard valve thread on them so you might not be able to do it.. but I would take the regualtor and the bottle to a place and see what they can do. If you don't mind filling a lot that would be a good deal to play with.

Steve

[ 15 August 2002, 17:14: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]

[JoJo]

Thanks Steve!!!!

[MitchM]

Originally posted by delphinus:
How long does that last you between fills?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A few years.
For 33 bucks per fillup, I can handle the initial cash layout. :D

It gives me a little extra gas for the odd leak, too! :D

Mitch