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Seriak
03-01-2013, 01:45 AM
I can't seem to figure this one out.

It started with some algae growth on my birds nest and setosa, then my monti started to bleach and get covered in green film algae, now my LPS are slowly losing their heads. A couple SPS colonies bleached over night and now some of my smaller SPS are starting to have algae form on the tips.

My Parameters are as follows.

Salinity 1.026
Ca 350
Mg 1250
Alk 9.0
PO4 0

I did introduce bio pellets around 2 month ago, but I went very slowly. I also started to dose CaCl2 around the this time. I have a new skimmer that I am running fairly wet and I have to empty it every couple of days. I don't have a nitrate test, but hope to get one soon.

I tested my water and it looks like my membrane needed to be changed as it was in the 16 range. I have now fixed that and its back down to zero. I will do a big water change tomorrow, but can anyone else think of what I might try.

reefwars
03-01-2013, 01:56 AM
I can't seem to figure this one out.

It started with some algae growth on my birds nest and setosa, then my monti started to bleach and get covered in green film algae, now my LPS are slowly losing their heads. A couple SPS colonies bleached over night and now some of my smaller SPS are starting to have algae form on the tips.

My Parameters are as follows.

Salinity 1.026
Ca 350
Mg 1250
Alk 9.0
PO4 0

I did introduce bio pellets around 2 month ago, but I went very slowly. I also started to dose CaCl2 around the this time. I have a new skimmer that I am running fairly wet and I have to empty it every couple of days. I don't have a nitrate test, but hope to get one soon.

I tested my water and it looks like my membrane needed to be changed as it was in the 16 range. I have now fixed that and its back down to zero. I will do a big water change tomorrow, but can anyone else think of what I might try.



calibrate your refrac you never know id also up your cal and lower your alk just a tad.

spring is a hard time to have your membrane wear out;)


gl buddy

Madmak
03-01-2013, 02:05 AM
From what I've been reading your Alk is a bit high and Ca is a bit low for running pellets. This alone shouldn't be causing the issues though. Are you feeding everything heavily? This is important when using pellets as they strip it all out quite quickly. Is your reactor a recirculating type? Too much flow through the reactor can introduce too much of the mulm they talk about. It might be worth adjusting your Alk and Ca, feeding heavy, and turning down your reactor's output for a while and see what happens.

I too have started pellets recently and did noticed some coral decline initially. I converted my reactor to a recirculating type and started feeding more fish food and more coral food (reef roids) and things turned around quickly.

I'm no expert, just sharing some info I've read and some things I've tried.

Seriak
03-01-2013, 02:23 AM
calibrate your refrac you never know id also up your cal and lower your alk just a tad.

spring is a hard time to have your membrane wear out;)


gl buddy

Lol I just did that which is why its at 1.206 and not 1.025. I will be lowering it back to 1.025

Thanks

Seriak
03-01-2013, 02:24 AM
From what I've been reading your Alk is a bit high and Ca is a bit low for running pellets. This alone shouldn't be causing the issues though. Are you feeding everything heavily? This is important when using pellets as they strip it all out quite quickly. Is your reactor a recirculating type? Too much flow through the reactor can introduce too much of the mulm they talk about. It might be worth adjusting your Alk and Ca, feeding heavy, and turning down your reactor's output for a while and see what happens.

I too have started pellets recently and did noticed some coral decline initially. I converted my reactor to a recirculating type and started feeding more fish food and more coral food (reef roids) and things turned around quickly.

I'm no expert, just sharing some info I've read and some things I've tried.

That is what I thought a while a go and I started to feed more but the algae growth in my tank is starting to cover my zoas and coralline. This is what leads me to think too much nutrients.

I also just cleaned out my salt water bin. There was a small covering of black algae inside that is now gone. Maybe that was contributing.

I have increased my Ca dosage by double but it's still not climbing very much. I guess I will have to turn it up a notch again.

reefwars
03-01-2013, 02:30 AM
the algae growth in my tank is starting to cover my zoas and coralline. This is what leads me to think too much nutrients.

id take a water sample over here to test with my kits, we can compare them to yours just to make sure we are at par.

my guess.........also nutrient related.

Madmak
03-01-2013, 02:57 AM
That is what I thought a while a go and I started to feed more but the algae growth in my tank is starting to cover my zoas and coralline. This is what leads me to think too much nutrients.


I had some of this too. An increase in green algae and a bit of cyano. I tested often and the nutrients were dropping. I ran across a few articles or threads about the excess carbon coming off the pellets was the cause, especially if the flow was high or the reactor wasn't a recirculating type. Slowing down my amount of processed water and having it directly feed my skimmer has made an immediate difference.

One author compared it to overdosing vodka, same effect, low nutrients but algae increase.

daniella3d
03-01-2013, 03:22 AM
pellets...why do I read so many horror stories about them?

naesco
03-01-2013, 03:42 AM
pellets...why do I read so many horror stories about them?


I have to agree with you Daniella. I have read more bio pellet destroyed my reef threads than algae problem threads and I have to post

" if it ain't broke don't fix it" as a warning to others. I know it is not helpful to the OP but I am sure he would post the same warning.

Madmak
03-01-2013, 03:57 AM
Like most things in life, you only hear the bad stories. No one is interested in writing or reading happy stuff.

I think pellets have their place, but they can also cause issues if not used correctly, just like any carbon dosing. The trouble with pellets is the ambiguity of how much to use, how fast to tumble, how to introduce them, etc. I believe the biggest problems come from non-circulating reactors. They seem to flood the water column with carbon and bacteria as the output is more than the skimmer can handle. I run about 100 GPH of processed water in to my 2000 GPH skimmer pump. This zero bypass method has made a big difference.

Seriak
03-01-2013, 03:59 AM
The horror stories I read were all about people putting too many in and too fast. I went ridiculously slow, but hey who knows. The output is placed toward the input of the skimmer but isn't directly fed into the skimmer, not sure how that would work anyways. I bought the reef octopus reactor that keeps the pellets moving perfectly.

kien
03-01-2013, 04:11 AM
Indeed, there are just as many "zeoVit/vodka/sugar crashed my tank!" Stories. I for one have been using bioPellets since they first came out 3 years ago and I jam pack my reactor which isn't even one of those fancy new recirculating reactors.

Anyway, if I was to make a suggestion I would say your alk vs calc do seem out of balance. In a probiotic system it's generally suggested that a lower alk is better. I typically run mine at 7/8 with calcium at 420.

naesco
03-01-2013, 05:43 AM
The horror stories I read were all about people putting too many in and too fast. I went ridiculously slow, but hey who knows. The output is placed toward the input of the skimmer but isn't directly fed into the skimmer, not sure how that would work anyways. I bought the reef octopus reactor that keeps the pellets moving perfectly.

Can I ask you why you made the decision to go the pellet route Seriak?

Obviously you had success in keeping SPS? What were you trying to achieve, correct or ??

Thanks

Seriak
03-01-2013, 02:04 PM
I was having slightly increased algae growth prior to the pellets. Since I had nothing eliminating PO4 or NO3 other than weekly water changes I decided to implement bio pellets. I also, wanted to start feeding a little heavier for all my LPS. I really don't think my problem is bio-pellet related, but I could be wrong.

kien
03-01-2013, 02:59 PM
I have found that pellets don't take down PO4 all that well so I run GFO for that. Pellets destroy nitrates quite well tho. I does take up to 4 weeks to develop enough culture in the pellets to start being effective tho. Cyano is definitely a possible byproduct of running bioPellets initially and for that I just do a treatment of Chemiclean.

Seriak
03-01-2013, 03:03 PM
I have found that pellets don't take down PO4 all that well so I run GFO for that. Pellets destroy nitrates quite well tho. I does take up to 4 weeks to develop enough culture in the pellets to start being effective tho. Cyano is definitely a possible byproduct of running bioPellets initially and for that I just do a treatment of Chemiclean.

I have some GFO on order with Eli, so hopefully that comes in soon, but I am not seeing any PO4 in any of my tests. Maybe Denny will tell me different when I bring him a jug of water today.

kien
03-01-2013, 03:22 PM
I have some GFO on order with Eli, so hopefully that comes in soon, but I am not seeing any PO4 in any of my tests. Maybe Denny will tell me different when I bring him a jug of water today.

I have a stock pile of BRS GFO if you need some in the short term.

Madreefer
03-01-2013, 03:51 PM
pellets...why do I read so many horror stories about them?

I agree 100%

I flew home last night for my days off at home. I thought it was really strange that there was a pig on my plane:biggrin:

Seriak
03-01-2013, 04:17 PM
I have a stock pile of BRS GFO if you need some in the short term.

Thanks for the offer. I guess it will depend on what Denny finds out with his tests. I will definitely keep that in mind. I think Eli said his GFO should be in anyday as well. A big water change tonight should hopefully help things out.

naesco
03-01-2013, 08:15 PM
I agree 100%

I flew home last night for my days off at home. I thought it was really strange that there was a pig on my plane:biggrin:

You are getting old and nearsighted my friend. She posted pellets not piglets.

Madreefer
03-01-2013, 08:39 PM
Oh Naesco you never got the joke. I usually argue with her. You know you the saying when pigs fly?

Seriak
03-01-2013, 11:52 PM
Well thanks to Denny, I know my Elos Alk test is way out. He had my Alk over 11. Also my nitrates are over 25, but phosphates are good. This would explain why my Ca has been so hard to get inline. I have stopped dosing Alk and water changes are going to be a regular event for the next week.

asylumdown
03-02-2013, 12:06 AM
That's likely causing your coral issues. Having tests that far out scares me.

And I'm with Kien on the pellet front. I've had them running in my tank since day one, and I wouldn't ever think of removing them. I also run GFO as my phosphates can get as high as 0.09 while nitrates will stay undetectable.

Different strokes for different folks though. They caused a cyano bloom the likes of which I had never seen in my last tank, but that was adding them to a high nutrient, year old, tap water tank.

lastlight
03-02-2013, 01:45 AM
Scary my Elos kits have always been consistent even across old to new. It was t expired or more than a year since first use?

daniella3d
03-02-2013, 02:16 AM
How can your nitrates be so high if you are using pellets?

not enough pellets? not enough skimming?

reefwars
03-02-2013, 02:42 AM
How can your nitrates be so high if you are using pellets?

not enough pellets? not enough skimming?

Quite simple really, we don't know how high his nitrates were before today, also starting very low in ml will take longer to have a positive effect.

I don't think the high nitrates are the cause but the very high alk is a big concern for me, on the Hanna it came out to 11 .7 twice and his calcium was under 350ppm we don't know if it fluctuates either.

This can cause problems when running pellets or any carbon dosing really.

Seriak
03-02-2013, 03:22 AM
Scary my Elos kits have always been consistent even across old to new. It was t expired or more than a year since first use?

It expires June of 2013

Seriak
03-02-2013, 03:26 AM
I ran my Hanna kit and my alk is reading 9.8 now. Going in the right direction at least

Seriak
03-14-2013, 04:51 PM
Okay,

Let me know if this sounds right.

SPS Analysis

1) High nitrates led to a small algae bloom.
2) High Alk combined with the introduction of Bio Pellets led to burnt tips on my SPS.
3) The algae then formed on the dead tips and slowly stressed the SPS; hence some RTN and some STN

LPS Analysis

1) Introduced Bio Pellet Reactor which increase CO2
2) Winter has an affect of increasing CO2 as our houses are all sealed up during this time
3) These both lead to a decrease in my tanks pH
4) LPS typically are stressed from decreases in pH which resulted in a lot of them deciding to drop their heads.

Does this pretty much sum up what happened to me?
Does any of my logic not flow properly? Also, would the heads dropping off also lead to my increased nitrates if they were not removed from the tank?

Seriak
03-14-2013, 05:12 PM
Oh and I guess my most recent LPS die off was a result of me stopping my Alk dosing which also lead to a further dip in my pH. I love how everything ties together.

Delphinus
03-14-2013, 06:57 PM
Sounds totally plausible to me..

Might not be an issue in this case but something to think about as well as that a zero PO4 reading isn't always "really zero."

Early on it was claimed with biopellets that they reduce PO4 as well as NO3. However, this has not been my experience (I do use and have used pellets on tanks and have seen good NO3 reduction or elimination with them. But not PO4.) It's been claimed more recently that they can only reduce PO4 as long as they have NO3 to reduce. Unfortunately I can't claim any anecdotal evidence to support or dispute that, so that may well be the case for all I know, but ultimately, regardless if that is true or not, pellets do have a limited ability to remove PO4. So even with pellet use, having GFO on the tank is a good idea.

It's been a while since I've done my reading on this, but if you go back over the years of reef chemistry postings by Randy Holmes-Farley and others, I think you can find more info, but from what I recall: basically you have organic phosphate and inorganic phosphate. We can only test for inorganic phosphate, we can't test for organic phosphate, but it's only organic phosphate we need concern ourselves. So we test the inorganics and hope for the best that there is a proportional relationship between the two. This might not always be the case. So basically unless you have something proven in place for PO4 removal (GFO or lanthanum or whatever), you might have PO4 even if you test it out and get a zero (or nominal) reading. So even if you think PO4 isn't a problem, having GFO (or similar product) on the tank regardless, is a good idea.

(I just wish GFO was cheaper...)

Seriak
03-14-2013, 07:24 PM
Okay,

But I heard the correlation goes both ways. If you don't have enough phosphates, bio pellets will not be able to reduce nitrates and since I have high nitrates and supposedly low phosphates, I was thinking I didn't want to run GFO until my nitrates came down. I hope to pick up my GFO from Eli soon, but I wasn't going to use it until my nitrates levels were closer to 0. Should I start it up earlier?

asylumdown
03-14-2013, 07:44 PM
If the bacteria in the biopellets are really using nutrients according to the redfield ratio, they use 16 times less phosphorous than nitrogen. You can have very low Phosphate levels and still have nitrate reduction taking place in your pellets. If you're really worried, you should start with a very small amount of GFO so that the levels don't plummet to zero in a few hours (that's good practice anyway).

Seriak
03-14-2013, 07:48 PM
If the bacteria in the biopellets are really using nutrients according to the redfield ratio, they use 16 times less phosphorous than nitrogen. You can have very low Phosphate levels and still have nitrate reduction taking place in your pellets. If you're really worried, you should start with a very small amount of GFO so that the levels don't plummet to zero in a few hours (that's good practice anyway).

Yeah, but if I have 0.02 to 0.03 Phosphates atm and >25 Nitrates (which could mean 100 for all I know) I would almost like to increase my phosphates in the short term to reduce my nitrates faster. Or at least I think I do.

Madmak
03-14-2013, 07:48 PM
I ran a small amount of GFO with my pellets right from the start. It brought both Nitrates and Phosphates down quite gently and evenly.

It does take time though.

Delphinus
03-14-2013, 07:56 PM
Maybe just hold off on the gfo for now and monitor the NO3. If it looks like it's coming down, leave it as-is but maybe once it gets to 10 or so (I'm just pulling this number out of the air arbitrarily) then go ahead and put the GFO on.

asylumdown
03-14-2013, 07:57 PM
Sounds totally plausible to me..

Might not be an issue in this case but something to think about as well as that a zero PO4 reading isn't always "really zero."

Early on it was claimed with biopellets that they reduce PO4 as well as NO3. However, this has not been my experience (I do use and have used pellets on tanks and have seen good NO3 reduction or elimination with them. But not PO4.) It's been claimed more recently that they can only reduce PO4 as long as they have NO3 to reduce. Unfortunately I can't claim any anecdotal evidence to support or dispute that, so that may well be the case for all I know, but ultimately, regardless if that is true or not, pellets do have a limited ability to remove PO4. So even with pellet use, having GFO on the tank is a good idea.

It's been a while since I've done my reading on this, but if you go back over the years of reef chemistry postings by Randy Holmes-Farley and others, I think you can find more info, but from what I recall: basically you have organic phosphate and inorganic phosphate. We can only test for inorganic phosphate, we can't test for organic phosphate, but it's only organic phosphate we need concern ourselves. So we test the inorganics and hope for the best that there is a proportional relationship between the two. This might not always be the case. So basically unless you have something proven in place for PO4 removal (GFO or lanthanum or whatever), you might have PO4 even if you test it out and get a zero (or nominal) reading. So even if you think PO4 isn't a problem, having GFO (or similar product) on the tank regardless, is a good idea.

(I just wish GFO was cheaper...)

This is exactly why I take all my test kits with a grain of salt. My test kits have all read 0.00 phosphate and nitrate for months, and yet my coral and coraline algae still grows, there's some hair algae in my overflows that still grows, and I still need to clean the glass every day or so. When you enter in to a situation where all your nutrients are either in a form you can't test for, or they're dynamically taken up by something the second they're produced, you almost need to rely on what your tank is telling you than what you get from a test kit.

reefwars
03-14-2013, 07:58 PM
This is exactly why I take all my test kits with a grain of salt. My test kits have all read 0.00 phosphate and nitrate for months, and yet my coral and coraline algae still grows, there's some hair algae in my overflows that still grows, and I still need to clean the glass every day or so. When you enter in to a situation where all your nutrients are either in a form you can't test for, or they're dynamically taken up by something the second they're produced, you almost need to rely on what your tank is telling you than what you get from a test kit.



your getting 0.000 on the ultra low test kit?

asylumdown
03-14-2013, 08:02 PM
hanna for phosphates show 0.00 always, and Red Sea Nitrate kit with the little colour wheel has never had a colour change. I'm not sure if that's the ultra low range kit though, there's obviously some there in trace levels for things to still be growing.

Is there a kit that tests at a lower range?

asylumdown
03-14-2013, 08:04 PM
Maybe just hold off on the gfo for now and monitor the NO3. If it looks like it's coming down, leave it as-is but maybe once it gets to 10 or so (I'm just pulling this number out of the air arbitrarily) then go ahead and put the GFO on.

yah I think this is the best advice. 0.02-0.03 phosphate isn't bad, actually some people strive for that level.

The pellets take a while to do their thing.

daniella3d
03-14-2013, 09:09 PM
I would be happy if I had that level of phosphate in my tank. It's at 0.1 and has been for a long time.

yah I think this is the best advice. 0.02-0.03 phosphate isn't bad, actually some people strive for that level.

The pellets take a while to do their thing.

Reef Pilot
03-14-2013, 09:43 PM
I would be happy if I had that level of phosphate in my tank. It's at 0.1 and has been for a long time.
Do you run GFO?

I can pretty tell how much P04 I have by how fast the algae grows on my glass. When it gets up to .1, I change my GFO, and then it is again down to between 0 and .04. It slowly creeps up over about 2 months, and then I change it.

I only use about 200 ml of HC GFO in my reactor. I also give my reactors (carbon and GFO) an air bubble flush when I clean the 1st canister, which then stirs up the GFO, and the levels drop down again. But when the P04 stays up, then I know it is time to change it.

I also run a bio pellet reactor (N03 always zero now), so it may take out a bit of P04, too. Lately, though, I have really let my bio pellets run low in this reactor (only about 200 ml in it now), but will not add any until I start seeing some nitrates again.

And to think that 2 years ago, this same tank had over 50 ppm N03 (as high as 100 at one time), and P04 at 1.0.