Why all the AI's for sale?

[mark]

Seems like everyone is selling theirs, something new for around the same price I missed that's come out?

Was thinking about a set rather than replacing my MH bulbs when they're due but seeing so many FS lately has me wondering if I should stay away.

[xenon]

They might all be upgrading to the new full spectrum AI Vega.

[Nano]

Yes.

Also a lot upgraded to radions when the price cam down or the new ghl mitras I myself sold mine as I'm taking a leave of absence so to speak from salt water.

[Aquattro]

I just ordered another for my frag tank.

[Madmak]

I just ordered another for my frag tank.

Are you having good luck with the Sol as a frag tank light? White or Blue? I am considering using one.

[subman]

I use one over my frag section and I think it's a great light, with good growth and seems bullet proof.
That being said I'm not sure I would love it over my display as its missing the full spectrum.

[Aquattro]

Are you having good luck with the Sol as a frag tank light? White or Blue? I am considering using one.

Haven't got it yet, but since that's the light I run over my display, I'm confident it will give the same results. It gives great color and growth, and sufficient penetration to the lower areas of the tank.
Perhaps not full spectrum, but I prefer a bluer look. Still not convinced that all the schmancy colors of other lights does anything different.
If I were re-purchasing lights, I would buy them again. Great value for the cost, comparable to Radions in my opinion, and great control using my Apex.

edit: I use the Blue model

[Madmak]

I have 2 Mitras over my DT that I really like but for my frag tank I was considering the Sol. I'm not too concerned with looks, but more with good growth and a low risk of bleaching.

[Aquattro]

I have 2 Mitras over my DT that I really like but for my frag tank I was considering the Sol. I'm not too concerned with looks, but more with good growth and a low risk of bleaching.

I think you'll be more than happy with it, although they are bright. Mitras are brighter, so you shouldn't have to manage bleaching too much. Colors will be fine too, and great growth. I'm considering lowering mine to slow growth a bit.

[subman]

I have 2 Mitras over my DT that I really like but for my frag tank I was considering the Sol. I'm not too concerned with looks, but more with good growth and a low risk of bleaching.

That is exactly what I'm using and the growth difference is minimal I do have my sol closer to the frags to compensate for the intensity difference. I haven't had any issues moving any corals from frag section to DT.

I'm using my profilux to control it which is great because the AI controller is junk.

[xenon]

That is exactly what I'm using and the growth difference is minimal I do have my sol closer to the frags to compensate for the intensity difference. I haven't had any issues moving any corals from frag section to DT.

I'm using my profilux to control it which is great because the AI controller is junk.

The new AI controller is MUCH better.

[subman]

The new AI controller is MUCH better.

I hated the wireless one almost more than the original.... But that's another story.

[xenon]

Have you guys seen this yet? OMG!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ljOBxe48v0E

[Madmak]

^^^That's quite a grow op!

[subman]

At about 1:15 the snail even has an sps Colony growing on its back lol

[The Grizz]

All I can say is WOW!! All that coral in one place & we can hardly get anything up here.

[Jakegr]

I still think the Sol is one of the best built LED fixtures out there. I think people are selling them to upgrade to newer, thinner, "full spectrum" fixtures. Used Sols are a decent deal at $250-300 used, but I wouldn't spend more than that given that you can get some pretty awesome brand new fixtures for $400 now.

I personally do not think "full spectrum" lights will have any noticeable growth benefit. There is a well established science behind using red lights to grow plants/algae more efficiently, but more efficiently does not mean faster. It just means it uses less power. I think the use of multi-color LEDs serves more to improve appearance of corals.

[The Guy]

I still think the Sol is one of the best built LED fixtures out there. I think people are selling them to upgrade to newer, thinner, "full spectrum" fixtures. Used Sols are a decent deal at $250-300 used, but I wouldn't spend more than that given that you can get some pretty awesome brand new fixtures for $400 now.

I personally do not think "full spectrum" lights will have any noticeable growth benefit. There is a well established science behind using red lights to grow plants/algae more efficiently, but more efficiently does not mean faster. It just means it uses less power. I think the use of multi-color LEDs serves more to improve appearance of corals.
Totally agree with you, I have 2 sols on my 90g and they work great for me so far. I have had no issues with original controller. :biggrin:

[camaro7019]

was only selling mine cause i downgraded to a biocube, keeping 1 ai sol for the biocube tho :) love the ai sols! would never buy a different light

[Pan]

Seems like everyone is selling theirs, something new for around the same price I missed that's come out?

Was thinking about a set rather than replacing my MH bulbs when they're due but seeing so many FS lately has me wondering if I should stay away.

LED is new technology, you will always need to "upgrade" to have the latest in LED TECH that is until the technology matures ......but given the nature of it...that may never happen.

I'm not an LED fan I don't adopt a technology until it has proven itself....I don't think LED is there yet., but hey many swear buy them. But LED is like the smartphone craze, new features will always make some people want to upgrade.
Some will actually need it, others won't....

MH as T5 are matured technology for reefs...sure the fixtures can sort of change....but the technology itself is matured...trusted...and proven.

[Pan]

Haven't got it yet, but since that's the light I run over my display, I'm confident it will give the same results. It gives great color and growth, and sufficient penetration to the lower areas of the tank.
Perhaps not full spectrum, but I prefer a bluer look. Still not convinced that all the schmancy colors of other lights does anything different.
If I were re-purchasing lights, I would buy them again. Great value for the cost, comparable to Radions in my opinion, and great control using my Apex.

edit: I use the Blue model


Yep if you look at the ocean, where there is red light there is algae. Once you penetrate the ocean deep enough the "red" light is the first that gets filtered out. Hence after a certain depth...no algae's like there is towards the surface.

In a tank it means nothing, our tanks are not deep enough to do this... I sorta think the spectrum claims of LED manufacturers admit of a bit of snake oil i'm afraid, rather their claims of perceived benefit...but again LED is relatively new...so time will tell.

[Kryos]

Something I've read on other forums say that the full spectrum is not mainly used to improve growth. You can have a perfectly healthy and growing coral under just Blue and White LEDs. However, they pointed out that there are some other photosynthetic pigments in coral that will will peak at other light wavelengths. By giving those pigments the wavelength they peak at, they will supposedly show better color overall.

Not my opinion, just something I've read. I'm still trying to decide whether or not the Full spectrum is worth it for my next upgrade. Personally tho, I've had a few coral change color on me with my current T5s, some of them came from Blue/White LEDs, some of them came from T5s. So I'm not sure what to believe.

[Pan]

Something I've read on other forums say that the full spectrum is not mainly used to improve growth. You can have a perfectly healthy and growing coral under just Blue and White LEDs. However, they pointed out that there are some other photosynthetic pigments in coral that will will peak at other light wavelengths. By giving those pigments the wavelength they peak at, they will supposedly show better color overall.

Not my opinion, just something I've read. I'm still trying to decide whether or not the Full spectrum is worth it for my next upgrade. Personally tho, I've had a few coral change color on me with my current T5s, some of them came from Blue/White LEDs, some of them came from T5s. So I'm not sure what to believe.

LED does allow for a tweaking of the view able light for corals...thus the ability to alter their aesthetic....however I do no think that it can match a good MH and Actinics (Yet - and certainly in my opinion) .... But again, the problem with the rapid replacing of LED fixtures is to obtain the latest and greatest, as the tech is not mature. Thus as one aspect changes others do as well. I think LED will be the top due to all of the benifits it "WILL" have eventually. Even I will switch when they are there....I just don't think they are...proved i think by the continuous and rapid changes in development - eventually as the tech matures i think development cycles will slow....LED is hot in general and the tech improvements are great and rapid paced - in such an environment there will always be "reason" to upgrade I think - though I suppose if you are happy and don't want the latest and greatest - But the Marine Aquaria industry jumps on the new thing and pushes and pushes...it knows a cash cow when it sees one.

I am going to try a couple of LED pendants as sort of a spot lightning or highlighting effect....when i build the system as the pendants were free - so maybe I will convert. But the 'perceived" downsides to MH were never a problem for me.

I have seen as many people in support of LEDS as there are people who went back to MH,t5 from LEDS - Choice is good and there is an abundance of choice in lighting.

Many zooxanthellate corals have their bright colors because of a family of multi-hued fluorescing proteins. These pigments seem to be produced in response to a given light environment. The primary control on their production appears to be total irradiance level, and little evidence exists to suggest that the "k" rating of bulbs will influence their production. There is also a strong genetic component, although the specific aspects of fluorescing proteins and their respective genes have not yet been worked out. The color temperature of light bulbs most likely influences the perceived color of corals in a tank, with ultraviolet components enhancing highly fluorescent pigments. Certain bulb temperatures may have enough of their spectrum skewed in relative distribution that total irradiance with a given wattage may be affected, and thus total irradiance influencing the relative production of fluorescing proteins.


Above COURTESY OF http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/eb/index.php - it is an older article, and indeed more may have been learned on the matter.

http://www.nightsea.com/articles/publications/

[tripsandfalls]

Full spectrum is basically entirely for coloration.

Advanced aquarist has a good review on fluorescence, and fluorescent pigments in corals. This has been thoroughly discussed in scientific literature (and continues to be discussed). (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature) If you guys take a look at figure 2, it highlights the broad spectrum of wavelengths (both visible and UV) that fluorescent pigments in coral cover--the more of them we hit with our light's emission, the more vibrant our corals look.

In terms of growth, there are photosynthetic pigments that absorb into the visible as well (and even approaching the near IR... or well into the red), but the most common ones (the chlorophylls) absorb around the wavelengths that 'blue' and 'white' LEDs emit. http://reefbuilders.com/2010/08/23/chlorophyll-f-a-newly-discovered-photosynthetic-pigment-uses-infrared-light/

The reason people switch back to T5 and MH light sources is because these lamps are broadband emission sources, so you're hitting both the growth wavelengths and the other visible wavelengths all with one lamp, resulting in growth AND pretty colors. LEDs are narrow band emitters (ie: they just hit specific bands), so including different colors of LED
helps with color rendition. LEDs have other advantages; smaller fixtures, run cooler, use less power, long bulb lifetime, etc.

As a guy who works on LEDs on the molecular level, I'm stoked about the technology. Sure there's room to grow, but people hanging onto MH and T5 systems may be a little afraid of change. ;)

[Goatman]

Full spectrum is basically entirely for coloration.

Advanced aquarist has a good review on fluorescence, and fluorescent pigments in corals. This has been thoroughly discussed in scientific literature (and continues to be discussed). (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature) If you guys take a look at figure 2, it highlights the broad spectrum of wavelengths (both visible and UV) that fluorescent pigments in coral cover--the more of them we hit with our light's emission, the more vibrant our corals look.

In terms of growth, there are photosynthetic pigments that absorb into the visible as well (and even approaching the near IR... or well into the red), but the most common ones (the chlorophylls) absorb around the wavelengths that 'blue' and 'white' LEDs emit. http://reefbuilders.com/2010/08/23/chlorophyll-f-a-newly-discovered-photosynthetic-pigment-uses-infrared-light/

Excellent, will have to do some more reading.


The reason people switch back to T5 and MH light sources is because these lamps are broadband emission sources, so you're hitting both the growth wavelengths and the other visible wavelengths all with one lamp, resulting in growth AND pretty colors. LEDs are narrow band emitters (ie: they just hit specific bands), so including different colors of LED
helps with color rendition. LEDs have other advantages; smaller fixtures, run cooler, use less power, long bulb lifetime, etc.


All worthwhile advantages, as long as it is not at the expense of the corals.

Energy saved seems moot when every six months people seem to be upgrading :twised:

As a guy who works on LEDs on the molecular level, I'm stoked about the technology. Sure there's room to grow, but people hanging onto MH and T5 systems may be a little afraid of change. ;)

Wary of change maybe but not Scared. I prefer ...so far at least ... the look of MH over that of LED. Again its a trusted method and I have no problem saying it could be because I am used to MH. but I didn't switch to T5 over MH either. The look is not the same. LED is nice but again I don't think its there yet. Again, in Marine Aquaria the "next" thing is always pressed as more advantageous...it makes money.

Again...I'm going to try LED again and see....especially if it warrants it after reading.


But again, people are replacing their fixtures because itr is the newest thing, the newest thing is always pushed and "improved" periodically. Again, I am not as current with LED as you probably are, but It's not a mature tech yet....so again the developments will come rapid for the next little bit i would think.


I must say i like the Aesthetics above the tank with the LED pendants...its the inside i worry about. I have Orphek Pendants and Kessil a350's the adjustable ones....having them hanging down over my rimless tank would look awesome...if they make the livestock look good then I'll not hesitate in switching.

[Jakegr]

In terms of growth, there are photosynthetic pigments that absorb into the visible as well (and even approaching the near IR... or well into the red), but the most common ones (the chlorophylls) absorb around the wavelengths that 'blue' and 'white' LEDs emit. http://reefbuilders.com/2010/08/23/chlorophyll-f-a-newly-discovered-photosynthetic-pigment-uses-infrared-light/


Just a slight correction. Chlorophylls a and b absorb best at about 475 and 680 nm. They utilize energy from 680 nm photons more efficiently than at 475 nm as the former have an energy content closely matching the ideal level of chlorophyll excitation. In terms of growth, we are primarily concerned with chlorophylls a and b. The more colourful pigments (carotenoids) serve more of a photoprotective role and do not have a major impact on growth, at least in algae.

White LEDs as I'm sure you know are a mix of wavelengths. So you can't say a pigment absorbs best at the wavelengths white LEDs emit, since they emit a very broad spectrum.

[mark]

so I'm getting nothing specifically wrong with the AI Sols, other than maybe aesthetics re:SPS

[subman]

No nothing at all wrong with them. Growth is great and color is good.

Unfortunately it seems lately any thread started with leds in the title attracts all the people with no experience with them to feel the need to tell everyone what's wrong with all LEDs.

[Aquattro]

so I'm getting nothing specifically wrong with the AI Sols, other than maybe aesthetics re:SPS

No, not even that. They're fine. If you stood in front of my tank, you'd agree they do a decent job with SPS.

[Madreefer]

No nothing at all wrong with them. Growth is great and color is good.

Unfortunately it seems lately any thread started with leds in the title attracts all the people with no experience with them to feel the need to tell everyone what's wrong with all LEDs.

Haha my thoughts exactly. Well put. I like my Sols. Big learning curve and would buy them again.

[tripsandfalls]

Just a slight correction. Chlorophylls a and b absorb best at about 475 and 680 nm. They utilize energy from 680 nm photons more efficiently than at 475 nm as the former have an energy content closely matching the ideal level of chlorophyll excitation. In terms of growth, we are primarily concerned with chlorophylls a and b. The more colourful pigments (carotenoids) serve more of a photoprotective role and do not have a major impact on growth, at least in algae.

Sure re: carotenoids. I was always under the impression that they also act as accessory pigments, extending the range of wavelengths absorbed to drive photosynthesis. As far as the chlorophylls go, based on their absorption cross section, it looks like they absorb more light at lower wavelengths, so I'm not sure what you mean by the ideal level of chlorophyll excitation. Unless you mean the amount of energy transferred to catalyse oxygen evolution? In which case sure... They dump all the excess energy from the higher energy (shorter wavelength) photons off as heat (via internal conversion).

White LEDs as I'm sure you know are a mix of wavelengths. So you can't say a pigment absorbs best at the wavelengths white LEDs emit, since they emit a very broad spectrum.

Yes, of course. I was thinking yellow for some reason. Should've had a coffee pre-post.

Are you a biologist, or just an enthusiast? :biggrin:

[Aquattro]

Haha my thoughts exactly. Well put. I like my Sols. Big learning curve and would buy them again.

Agreed. While I tend to go on about missing my MH, these are great alternatives and I would buy them again.

[Pan]

Agreed. While I tend to go on about missing my MH, these are great alternatives and I would buy them again.


I'm coming around.....seems the shimmer is there with my pendants.... but hanging them over coke cans in a cardboard tank takes away from the experience.

anyone locally have pics of kessil a350 (its the adjustble one...tuna i think) and orpkek dif-100 (growing on me more and more....but i'd need three i think....well maybe two and the kessil....maybe a smaller one. Will allow me to do the spotlighting effect i want....Heard back from my japanese friend i'd need a lot of money to get the MH spotlights i was hoping for....

[Aquattro]

I've seen the Kessils on a tank and think they're a nice light, but not really giving a spotlight effect.

[Pan]

I've seen the Kessils on a tank and think they're a nice light, but not really giving a spotlight effect.


No I know, the Orpheks do...depending on how you place them...you need a wide tank....they don't spotlight like the MH spots for sure...but I may be able to achieve what I want...the Orphek covers 36 inches if its 12 inches off the tank...give or take....but lowering it :)

I've seen a few pic's where they are put in between other led fixtures....there is defn a spotlight effect to varying degrees going on...but it was a 4 foot wide tank...possibly greater...I'm playing with ideas right now....might need a MH spotlight after all...been awhile might be able to find them in Can or US now i suppose :redface:

We Shall see I guess....was looking online at the new Orphek Atlantiks....$940 canadian....seems interesting but not really what i am looking for.

[Midway]

I own 7 black SOLs, the reason I'm selling one if that I had one over my breeder tanks and I think that's a bit of an over kill for that. So I decided to part with that one only. I have 6 SOLs fixtures over my 240g and they're doing an excellent job at growing corals (mixed reef) and I would not give them up. I'd think about it maybe in a couple of years or so but for now they're great!!

[Madreefer]

Hey Pan you seem to have done your research on LEDs. This thread has kind of turned in to a discussion on all brands just like the 100 other posts out there. Your not going to have the same look as MHs. The majority of guys that have switched to LEDs are happy with them after some tweaking. It appears that your just trying to convince yourself to try them. Good luck if you do. It's not like you won't be able to resell them. :biggrin: