Help please algae issues

[Coralgurl]

I know its been covered many times so if someone could point me to some good reading material on phosphates and nitrates and how to deal with it.

I've been doing water changes to reduce both, added a skimmer to help remove nutients, manually removing hair algae and reduced feedings. I've lost a number of corals like a frogspawn, octospawn, mushrooms have bleached and a brain coral has tissue receding. I only have api tests for phosphates and nitrates, tested both and they are high (not home at the moment and can post later).

Fish are fine(I have 2 clowns, 2 chromis, flameback angel and flame hawfish), think all my snails are dead as I haven't really seen them. And my awesome nem is not extending its tentacles like it did a few weeks ago.

Tank is running with a canister filter that is cleaned thoroughly every 2 weeks, I've recently switched to enheim bio media, and have carbon and gfo in it.

Any suggestions on how to turn this around?

[Myka]

I know its been covered many times so if someone could point me to some good reading material on phosphates and nitrates and how to deal with it.

Check the links in my signature. Particularly The Detritus Wars and Get Rid of Hair Algae...

[Skimmerking]

Well if you look at this if you have a tank that is 50PPM of Nitrates and your tank is 100 gal and u do a 5 % water change you are not even doing any damage on the nitrates. u would have to at least do 40-60 gal in that next water change. this would bring the nitrates down to about 10 PPM.

the PO4 Phosban or PO4x4 will take it out but if you are not monitoring the type of food you are putting in the tank IE frozen or the RO unit isn't taking out the Phosphates then you are not doing anything either.
so you see this is the best methods too to taking out the Nitrates and PO4


but remember that using to much Phosban will drop your ALk fast


Vertex Pellets will drop the Nitrates to and so does dosing vodka...


hope this helps

[kien]

You have GFO in your canister filter? Interesting, I've never heard of anyone doing that before. GFO generally works more efficiently when it tumbles at an appropriate rate in a fluidized reactor. I'm not familiar with your canister filter but are you able to see your gfo tumble? How often do you replace your gfo? Ommy experience, if you are using GFO and are still reading high phosphates, that is an indication to me that you are not replacing it soon enough. GFO IS VERY efficient at removing phosphates but depending I'm how much media you have vs your phosphate levels, the media can exhaust very quickly. For example, you may find you need to replace it weekly to get your phosphates down.

As for nitrates, there are quite a few options and you kinda have to pick one method that you feel suites you and your lifestyle. All of the various methods will work if employed correctly. ZeoVit, vodka/vinager/sugar dosing, prodibio, bioPellets. Pick your poison :-)

[Myka]

GFO should not tumble. At most, the very top layer should just barely very gently boil. Tumbling causes friction between the granules which will produce GFO dust that will go into your tank. For the same reason, you don't want carbon to tumble either.

Skimmer King makes a good point about waterchanges not being very effective in lowering the amount of nutrients in the water column although he has interesting math. :D Also, the rock and substrate will leech more nutrients any time the water column has less nutrients than them.

Waterchanges are important though as you should be manually removing as much algae as possible during waterchanges as well as siphoning/vacuuming out as much detritus as possible. Algae holds nutrients within itself so manual removal of the algae not only removes the unsightly algae it also removes those nutrients bound up in the algae. If you simply kill the algae when the algae dies those nutrients go back into the water column where they can feed new algae. Detritus is solid nutrients which can't dissolve into the water column if it is siphoned out soon enough. Powerheads should be placed to help prevent detritus from settling.

[kien]

If the top layer is "boiling" then are they not tumbling?

[Myka]

If the top layer is "boiling" then are they not tumbling?

I think most people consider "tumbling" to be fully fluidized, no?

[Aquattro]

:razz:

[molotov]

I got rid of my HA by using gfo and raising my magnesium levels. It wasn't till I raised my magnesium levels that I noticed the biggest change.

[Myka]

LOL @ Brad! Hey, I found a terrible quality video that does show proper not-so-tumbling tumble action. :D

http://youtu.be/iE01NgvGHIY

[Madreefer]

If the top layer is "boiling" then are they not tumbling?

There needs to be a guide on this "boiling or tumbling effect". It's way too confusing. :wink:

[kien]

I think most people consider "tumbling" to be fully fluidized, no?

I'm not sure. I've always thought that if media is moving, then it's "tumbling" :-)

In BRS' video about Carbon & Phosphate and Reactors they show GFO "tumbling" in the reactor (at 2:50). They even say it is "tumbling" at 2:50 and 5:09 and 5:20. At 5:23 they also mention that, "all of the particles turn over a few times a day"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yba8hkQ6WC8

In their other video on just GFO they say it tumbles in the reactor at 2:46, 3:10 and 4:04.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM8tw2aStDE

But you are right in that it should not tumble the media too vigorously.

[Myka]

That first BRS video at 2:50 he says don't tumble it "too vigorously" when you have GFO and carbon in the same reactor or the GFO will grind the carbon to dust. I didn't watch the whole video, I don't agree that the media should tumble to its entire depth. I posted a video on page 1 that shows the flow rate that I prefer. I do recommend though, that once a week the ball valve should be opened so the media can be flushed at which time it should tumble vigorously for maybe 30 seconds or so. This dislodges trapped detritus and prevents clumping and tunneling.

Here's the video again of the flow rate I recommend.
http://youtu.be/iE01NgvGHIY

This is getting somewhat off-topic rant-like. :lol:

[Reef Pilot]

Hate to say it, but I don't think you have just one issue to solve with your tank. I went through some of the same when I inherited a salt water tank a few years ago. It had high nitrates, high phosphate, full of aiptasia, and I was a SW newbie. Needless to say, it took me a while to figure things out, and I had to change a lot of things before it got better. Good news, I was successful, and now have a very healthy tank with zero nitrates, and near zero phostates, and growing SPS. Oh, and no aiptasia.

It does come down to basics though. Is your equipment good? What are your husbandry practices? Do you have the right fish and CUC that help keep your tank clean? And chemistry? Test kits? Go slow. Fix the right problems first. Monitor your progress and confirm what you are doing is working.

Lots of good reading on the web, including some great articles by Myka. Do some searches and should be easy to dig up all kinds of stuff on almost anything. Here is one example with an index of topics.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/subject/index.php
Of course, don't believe everything you read, and the forums are full of opinions. But with knowledge and experience, you should be able to figure out what and who you can trust. Plus there are many methods that work, and there are always new ways of doing things. That's part of what makes this hobby fun.

So where do you start? I would first look at your equipment. I believe you have a 180g tank. How much flow? I have a 100g and have 6500+ gph inside the tank. Strong flow helps keep the rocks and sand clean from detritus, where algae likes to grow. You said you have a new skimmer. What is it rated for? While my tank is 100g, I have a skimmer rated for 280g. Do you use filter socks? For that size tank, I would use a 7" inch diameter (16" long). If you have room in your sump, I would use two of those. That helps collect particulate matter in your water before it has a chance to turn into nitrates and phosphates, and helps make your skimmer be more efficient with less cleaning. RODI is a given. Various media reactors are also useful and I will talk about these later. Oh, and I would ditch that canister filter. It can be a nitrate factory.

Good husbandry is also most important. I would go with 20% water changes every 2 weeks until your tank is where you want it. Then no longer than once a month, if all your parameters stay good. Despite what some people here say, I would recommend vacuuming your sand with each water change at the beginning. I did that, and was amazed how much crap came out of my sand. Later you can do it once every few months to prevent build-up. You can also do different sections of the tank each time. A shallow sand bed also makes things easier. And keep picking away at that algae. I used a toothbrush on the rocks, and blew off the detritus with a turkey baster. Thankfully that effort became much easier and less frequent as my tank got cleaned up.

The right fish can help too. I have a yellow tang, kole tang, lawnmower blenny and a foxface that are always picking algae from the rocks and glass. I also have a diamond goby that does a wonderful job of keeping my sand clean. Some snails do work, but since I got some hermits, they were all done in. However, I have these little stomatella snails that have multiplied in my tank, and do a great job of keeping my upper rock surfaces (where the light is really strong) polished clean of algae. And the hermits don't bother them. Stay away from conch and other sand sifting snails. I tried them, and they didn't work for me. What's worse, is they get stuck under rock work and die there, making things worse. And whooh, what a smell when you remove them...

Media reactors are another great help. I would start with a bio pellet reactor to get your nitrates down. Here again the right equipment is very important. You want one with a lot of capacity and flow to keep your pellets tumbling properly. I use a Vertex UF20 and it can handle a full 1000 ml bag. However, it is important to follow directions and start slowly. The use of MB7 is also very important. I would start dosing heavily with MB7 (and you don't have to shut off your skimmer) a couple weeks early. It adds beneficial bacteria that helps prevent cyano, mulm, clumping and other bad things that can happen with bio pellets or carbon dosing (eg vodka). Once your nitrates come down (could take several months), then I would add GFO. That will take your phosphates down to near zero. I use an old converted RODI 3 cannister system (similar to the BRS GFO reactors) and run both carbon and GFO. That has worked well for me.

Oh, I should mention, I did initially try a refugium full of chaeto. It didn't make a dent in the nitrates or phosphates. I guess my tank at that time was just too far gone for it to make a difference.

Anyway, it can be done. Go slow. Don't expect immediate results. And don't give up. And nothing more gratifying afterwards to know that you won the battle. Good luck.

[Myka]

Excellent post by Reef Pilot.

[Madreefer]

I do recommend though, that once a week the ball valve should be opened so the media can be flushed at which time it should tumble vigorously for maybe 30 seconds or so. This dislodges trapped detritus and prevents clumping and tunneling.:

That's a good tip. Thanks. Ok back on topic. Sorry for the minor hijack.

[Coralgurl]

Thank you all for the feedback and tips! I went through Mykas articles last night and will do some more reading today.

To clarify a few points....this is my 55 gl tank. Running on a canister filter, no sump. Tank is 2 years old. I have 3 power heads, one mp10, 2 koralias (4's) I believe. The mp10 is set on reef crest, placed on the end of the tank in the middle at 100%. The 2 koralias are also on the ends but pointed at the surface.

I ran out of rowaphos and been substituting gfo in the canister. I just picked up fluval phosphate media and will change out today with a water change. I've been changing 25-30 gls of water with each change, max I can do at any one time. Water changes every 2 weeks.

I only use RO water, feed frozen but thaw and rinse before using, every time.

The skimmer I added is rated to 100 gls and with 6 small fish, don't think my bioload is too much.

My parameters are as follows

Phospahates .25 API test
Nitrate 20 API test
Cal 420 elos
Alk 8 elos
Mag 1100 elos
Ph 8.1 elos

It looks like I need to increase my cuc as I don't think I have any alive in the tank.

Where the hair algae is growing is the rocks on the bottom of the tank, I can pull these out and clean as they are small.

Good starting points-I'm not sure if I can run a bio pellet reactor on this one with no sump, I've been looking around and haven't found one. Will read about other options.

Thanks again!:lol:

[Reef Pilot]

To clarify a few points....this is my 55 gl tank. Running on a canister filter, no sump.
Whoops, sorry, I shouldn't have assumed. My post would apply mostly to your 180g. A canister can work for a 55 g, but would need a different approach, which is a whole another subject. But again, some good reading on the web on how to make that work, too.

[Myka]

With that amount of nutrients in the tank and the way it is set up (canister filter, no sump) it is really going to take a lot of time and elbow grease. The "real" numbers are much higher than the ones the test kits are showing you because the algae is sucking quite a bit out of the water column in order to be growing so well.

I would also consider removing the sand bed and then replacing it with a new shallow sand bed after the nutrients are under control again. This will help speed things along because usually in high nutrient systems there is a lot trapped and absorbed into the substrate (and live rock, but I doubt you want to replace that haha). If you do remove the sand bed, look into this before you start as it can be dangerous if you don't do it right.

Fyi, RowaPhos is GFO. GFO generally refers to any granular phosphate media that is reddish brown.

[Reef Pilot]

I'm not sure if I can run a bio pellet reactor on this one with no sump, I've been looking around and haven't found one. Will read about other options.

That tank, with no sump, might be a good candidate for carbon dosing using vodka together with MB7. The canister can still be used to get your phosphates down. I haven't done this myself, so can't speak from direct experience. But lots of good experience on the web if you do a search.

Once your params are good and the algae is licked, then maybe go back to just nitrate and phosphate removing media in your canister.

Along with your water changes, I would still vacuum the sand and make good use of a toothbrush and turkey baster until the detritus and algae are gone. Also would clean the primary sponge filter in your canister often to prevent build-up, esp with all your extra initial cleaning effort in your tank.

[Coralgurl]

With that amount of nutrients in the tank and the way it is set up (canister filter, no sump) it is really going to take a lot of time and elbow grease. The "real" numbers are much higher than the ones the test kits are showing you because the algae is sucking quite a bit out of the water column in order to be growing so well.

I would also consider removing the sand bed and then replacing it with a new shallow sand bed after the nutrients are under control again. This will help speed things along because usually in high nutrient systems there is a lot trapped and absorbed into the substrate (and live rock, but I doubt you want to replace that haha). If you do remove the sand bed, look into this before you start as it can be dangerous if you don't do it right.

Fyi, RowaPhos is GFO. GFO generally refers to any granular phosphate media that is reddish brown.

The sand is new, just added in May/June and is maybe an inch deep. I had removed all the old sand and redid this tank at that time. Ohhh, I know my numbers are higher than indicated on the tests, can see it in the tank...:mrgreen: the tank really went green while we were on holidays last month.

That tank, with no sump, might be a good candidate for carbon dosing using vodka together with MB7. The canister can still be used to get your phosphates down. I haven't done this myself, so can't speak from direct experience. But lots of good experience on the web if you do a search.

Once your params are good and the algae is licked, then maybe go back to just nitrate and phosphate removing media in your canister.

Along with your water changes, I would still vacuum the sand and make good use of a toothbrush and turkey baster until the detritus and algae are gone. Also would clean the primary sponge filter in your canister often to prevent build-up, esp with all your extra initial cleaning effort in your tank.

I will read up on vodka dosing. My maintenance on the canister I think is pretty good. Amazing what's in there. Everything is cleaned, scrubbed, rinsed and refilled with tank water. Sponges are cleaned and replaced every 3 months.

I'm waiting for the lights to come on and I'll get working on the tank.

Something else I didn't mention is there is a film on the surface water. I'm hoping that with the adjustments made to the skimmer (was overflowing) this surface film will start to clear up.

Should I rearrange the power heads?

[Myka]

The sand is new, just added in May/June and is maybe an inch deep.

I will read up on vodka dosing.

Sponges are cleaned and replaced every 3 months.

Something else I didn't mention is there is a film on the surface water.

Ah ok, since it is shallow, do you vacuum it? That can help quite a bit.

While you're reading up on vodka dosing check out Kalkwasser + vinegar dosing. It is maybe a bit more effective with algae troubles plus vodka dosing requires 1-2x per day dosing where Kalkwasser + vinegar only requires maintenance when you have to refill (weekly, bi-weekly?) although startup costs more.

Sponges should be replaced every week or they will become nitrate factories by housing nitrifying bacteria and trapping detritus. To keep costs down, buy bulk sheets of cut-to-size media.

Try pointing one of the powerheads towards the surface to help with the film.

[Reef Pilot]

Sponges are cleaned and replaced every 3 months.

I'm waiting for the lights to come on and I'll get working on the tank.

Something else I didn't mention is there is a film on the surface water. I'm hoping that with the adjustments made to the skimmer (was overflowing) this surface film will start to clear up.

Should I rearrange the power heads?

I hope you meant replace your sponges every 3 months, and not wait that long to clean them. Without a sump, your canister sponges act like filter socks in a sump, and catch all the detritus and bits stirred up in suspension by your pumps, and esp with your in-tank cleaning. They should be cleaned once a week, and more often initially. Otherwise, they will indeed contribute to your nitrate and phosphate issues.

Not sure what type of skimmer you have, but hopefully your tank overflow is set to skim off the surface water to your skimmer. That should get rid of your surface film. And there should be an adjustment capability on the skimmer so that it does not overflow.

Your pumps should be positioned so that all areas of your tank get flow, esp all the rocks and sand bottom. That's where detritus likes to build up.

[Coralgurl]

2 Power heads are pointed at the surface. I've brushed and removed as much as I can of the algae, vacuumed the sand and basted rocks plus a 25 gl water change done.

Sponges are cleaned each time I clean the canister and are replaced every 3 months. If they need to be replaced more often I'll do so.

The skimmer was dialed in but now have to reset it. I've run tubing into a bucket just in case, the overflow is quite low on this skimmer.

I'll test the water in an hour or so and see what's going on.

Now more reading! :lol:

Oh, and because I had the water level so low, noticed I've got tons of green bubble algae. Think I'll be picking up an emerald crab as well. Cleaned out all dead corals and snail shells, one absolutely reeked.

[Myka]

2 Power heads are pointed at the surface. I've brushed and removed as much as I can of the algae, vacuumed the sand and basted rocks plus a 25 gl water change done.

That's great! Don't pilfer too much flow for the surface though since you do need to have flow throughout the tank.

Sponges are cleaned each time I clean the canister and are replaced every 3 months. If they need to be replaced more often I'll do so.

I would not recommend rinse and reusing sponges. In freshwater tanks, sure. In saltwater tanks, no. Rinsing the sponges doesn't kill the nitrifying bacteria. If you don't kill the nitrifying bacteria the sponges become biological filters which pump out nitrate.

Most of the sponges that you buy at the LFS that are made for each filter are expensive to change out so often which is why I suggested you start sign cut-to-size media.

The skimmer was dialed in but now have to reset it. I've run tubing into a bucket just in case, the overflow is quite low on this skimmer.

Which skimmer did you buy anyway?

I'll test the water in an hour or so and see what's going on.

Wait about 24 hours so the nutrients have time to leech out of the rock and sand equalizing with the nutrients in the water column.

Think I'll be picking up an emerald crab as well. Cleaned out all dead corals and snail shells, one absolutely reeked.

Not all Emerald Crabs will eat bubble algae, I've found only about 1/3 to maybe 1/2 do. You may need to add a few of them. Be aware that the males get quite large and can grab and eat small fish.

The trouble with clean up crews though is they don't tolerate high nutrients, so don't go too crazy on a clean up crew yet as they may not have very good survival in your tank right now.

[Reef Pilot]

I would not recommend rinse and reusing sponges. In freshwater tanks, sure. In saltwater tanks, no. Rinsing the sponges doesn't kill the nitrifying bacteria. If you don't kill the nitrifying bacteria the sponges become biological filters which pump out nitrate.

Most of the sponges that you buy at the LFS that are made for each filter are expensive to change out so often which is why I suggested you start sign cut-to-size media.

With all due respect to Myka, as she definitely knows her stuff, I am not sure I agree totally with all of this statement. The reason I say that, is that I use a sponge filter with one of my sumps, only because it was built for that, and there is no room for any filter socks. It is a large sponge filter and I only have to clean it once a week. I have never replaced it and it is several years old. When I clean it, a lot of ugly crap comes out of it. And I have no doubt it has nitrifying bacteria. But because I clean it frequently, the crap gets rinsed out and does not have a chance to turn into nitrates. And this tank has zero nitrates. And BTW, this sponge filter is a lot easier to clean than my filter socks which I use in my other tank sump. They too can become nitrate factories if not cleaned frequently.

[Myka]

With all due respect to Myka, as she definitely knows her stuff, I am not sure I agree totally with all of this statement. The reason I say that, is that I use a sponge filter with one of my sumps, only because it was built for that, and there is no room for any filter socks. It is a large sponge filter and I only have to clean it once a week. I have never replaced it and it is several years old. When I clean it, a lot of ugly crap comes out of it. And I have no doubt it has nitrifying bacteria. But because I clean it frequently, the crap gets rinsed out and does not have a chance to turn into nitrates. And this tank has zero nitrates. And BTW, this sponge filter is a lot easier to clean than my filter socks which I use in my other tank sump. They too can become nitrate factories if not cleaned frequently.

That is perfectly fine, your tank is obviously able to handle the nitrate produced. There are also denitrifying bacteria within our systems, they are anaerobic and mainly live in the live rock and sometimes in DSBs. Their main purpose is to convert nitrate to mainly nitrogen gas and oxygen. A nitrate buildup occurs when there is more nitrate than the denitrifying bacteria can handle. In a tank that is suffering excessive nitrate, limiting all possible sources is very important.

[Reef Pilot]

That is perfectly fine, your tank is obviously able to handle the nitrate produced. There are also denitrifying bacteria within our systems, they are anaerobic and mainly live in the live rock and sometimes in DSBs. Their main purpose is to convert nitrate to mainly nitrogen gas and oxygen. A nitrate buildup occurs when there is more nitrate than the denitrifying bacteria can handle. In a tank that is suffering excessive nitrate, limiting all possible sources is very important.
Well, this is the tank/sump that I run my bio pellet reactor on, so you could be right, any nitrates are readily dispensed with...

[aquatechy]

Order this stuff:

http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaMaxx_UltraMaxx_AIO_All_In_One_Filter_Media_Car bon_Replacements_Resin_Chemical_Filter_Media-AquaMaxx-UJ00150-FIFMCHRM-vi.html

Works wonders on dealing with algae problems.

[Reef Pilot]

Order this stuff:

http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaMaxx_UltraMaxx_AIO_All_In_One_Filter_Media_Car bon_Replacements_Resin_Chemical_Filter_Media-AquaMaxx-UJ00150-FIFMCHRM-vi.html

Works wonders on dealing with algae problems.
Have you used it yourself? Tell us more about your before and after conditions and experience with this product.

[ckmullin]

If nitrite/nitrate are part of the problem, what about Purigen. I've used it to polish water in FW tanks and works like a charm. By Seachem's own product guide this will help remove nitrate.

[Coralgurl]

I've never tried purigen. Tank is looking a bit better but it's only been a couple of days. Corals are brighter and glass is cleaner.

[ckmullin]

Glad things are on the way up...look @ it day by day for the next week and hopefully you've turned the algae corner.

Purigen is a great product actually in the SW area of stores but great for FW too. The biggest thing with Purigen that people get turned off is that you need bleach to regenerate the product.

[aquatechy]

Have you used it yourself? Tell us more about your before and after conditions and experience with this product.

I'm sorry, where is are my reefkeeping manners? :biggrin:

Stats on my tank have been very good after I started using this stuff:
Nitrates: used to average around 2-3, now closer to 0.5
Phosphates: essentially close to zero now (0.12, average), used to be 1.1
ORP: used to sit aroud 375, now around 398

Overall, I started using this stuff because i was getting brown algae on my sand, and cyano. This stuff has the benefit of absorbing organic carbon as well, which is an added plus if you're running bio pellets. The elimination of algae was definitely noticeable. Coral vitality seemed alot better, perhaps because of the increase in ORP. this stuff has the benefit of lasting months too, not just weeks.