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FitoPharmer
01-26-2013, 11:34 PM
I am taking care of a large ~350 gallon system. Initially the tank did not look good, I found out the top off water was being badly contaminated with copper, and there was copper just sitting in the tank from a brass float valve. Since removing the copper and doing a large (~100G) water change things started to perk back up. Since the fish were showing signs of HLLE and other illnesses I inquired to their feeding situation. They had been feeding frozen food and freshwater flake once a day, and sometimes nothing over the weekend. They also are not currently turning off the return pump for feedings. I told them to feed twice a day, and gave them some algae to feed the tangs. The HLLE on the blue tang looks to be getting slightly better and the white spots on other fishes disappeared but then I noticed the anemones were not as happy as they should plus the nitrates on the dip tests they had went from 20-40ppm. I then decided to try a test with my nitrate kit, which showed 160ppm. I am not shocked at all, other then how poor the dip tests work, since the system has an ancient filter system. Bio balls and filter floss that are never cleaned, no skimmer, no fuge.

My question relates to the fact that I have never had such a a large tank in this situation. What is the cheapest and most effective way to lower the nitrates ASAP? A decent skimmer and carbon dosing schedule comes to mind. But I am also thinking about a macro fuge / ATS in the mean time since the tanks budget is pretty tight, and most of it was just used on a new ATO, controller, filter socks, and food. I will be talking to the building manager on Monday to see what can be done for funding.
Is there anything else that I am not thinking of?
I am also going to be instructing them to go back to one feeding per day until the nitrates are under control.

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

04V10
01-26-2013, 11:43 PM
I'd look at doing another huge water change for sure, ensuring that all the rocks and substrate get stirred up for the water change (you probably already know this).

Yes adding some fresh carbon would also be a great idea.

Next to that, if there is room to hang a basket or net, get some macro to put in there for a bit of help with the nutrient export (my friends have done this in the past when they had a nutrient spike). You could probably get some macro for free too from another reefer!!!

FitoPharmer
01-26-2013, 11:52 PM
I am really hesitant to do more large water changes since they are quite costly. I would rather invest in the equipment that will solve the problem permanently.

So far I have identified these issues:
No feeding mode (order controller)
No fuge / ATS (sump needs to be cleared out or marco basket in the main tank)
No skimmer (pending funds)
No filter socks/mechanical filtration(on order)
Flow is too low, 4x 1200gph maxi jets (2x Tunze Turbelle 6085 pending funds)
Light is too dim, 2x 150w 2xPC (2x 400w 4x 48w t5 pending funds)

The question is what will give the greatest bang for the buck as they say.

daniella3d
01-27-2013, 03:05 AM
You should start dosing some carbon source but go slowly. It will take time to lower such huge amount of nitrates, it won't happen in one day. Dosing carbon will be the best way to go I think, for the future at least.

Maybe a reactor with biopellets, but again, go very slowly and a very small quantity to begin with.

A skimmer is a big must in this case.

FitoPharmer
01-27-2013, 03:20 AM
Can I start a week or so before the skimmer arrives?

SoloSK71
01-27-2013, 03:26 AM
I am definitely not an expert but reading about carbon dosing you seem to need the skimmer to export the bacteria that grow in the reactor on the pellets and slough off.

Charles

xenon
01-27-2013, 03:37 AM
+1 on carbon dosing but don't start until you have a really good skimmer.

daniella3d
01-27-2013, 04:23 AM
Yes wait until you have a very good skimmer otherwise you run the risk of a major bacteria bloom and a big loss in oxygen, dead fish, dead corals etc. Dosing carbon is something to be done very cautiously, because it can be dangerous if done too quickly and without a skimmer to export all that crap.

monocus
01-27-2013, 05:27 AM
you could build a nitrate reactor out of pvc,black air line and plastic scouring pads-takes about a month for results but it works well

kien
01-27-2013, 05:59 AM
You could try Prodibio? I just recently read on the forum that you don't need a skimmer to use that carbon dosing system.

FitoPharmer
01-27-2013, 03:19 PM
you could build a nitrate reactor out of pvc,black air line and plastic scouring pads-takes about a month for results but it works well

Did you have a good link by any chance?

FitoPharmer
01-27-2013, 03:22 PM
You could try Prodibio? I just recently read on the forum that you don't need a skimmer to use that carbon dosing system.

I heard that it get quite expensive for results on a system this size. Since the budget is so tight I need to spend it where I will get the best long term effects for the $$$ invested. For years the previous care takers have just been wasting their money dumping into fish after fish not updating anything.

Reef Pilot
01-27-2013, 04:47 PM
Don't understand why anyone would even think of running a tank that size without a skimmer!! With nitrates that high, it will take some time and effort to get back to a decent level. Skimmer, water changes, carbon dosing and/or bio pellets, and filter socks will all be needed, I believe. I don't think there is a single magic bullet.

I had about 100 ppm nitrates in a tank that I inherited after a house purchase. I used bio pellets, rinsed the rocks, vacuumed the sand, increased my flow, etc. to get my nitrates down to zero. But it took many months.

With carbon dosing and bio pellets, it is very important to start heavy dosing with MB7 (or equivalent) beforehand, to avoid other problems like cyano, cloudy water, mulm and clumping of the pellets in your reactor. Also a good idea to start slow and ramp up over a couple months.

Good luck!!

monocus
01-27-2013, 05:53 PM
type in diy nitrate reactor.i built mine using 2' of 3" pvc and about 30'-35 ' of black air tubing.you need around 10 plastic scouring pads,a mini ball valve,reef safe silicone and a small pump.oh ya-lots of patience-it is a pain to coil the airline inside the pvc,but a heat gun helps.the build i copied it from used 4" pvc and 50' of hose

FitoPharmer
01-27-2013, 05:59 PM
Don't understand why anyone would even think of running a tank that size without a skimmer!! With nitrates that high, it will take some time and effort to get back to a decent level. Skimmer, water changes, carbon dosing and/or bio pellets, and filter socks will all be needed, I believe. I don't think there is a single magic bullet.

I had about 100 ppm nitrates in a tank that I inherited after a house purchase. I used bio pellets, rinsed the rocks, vacuumed the sand, increased my flow, etc. to get my nitrates down to zero. But it took many months.

With carbon dosing and bio pellets, it is very important to start heavy dosing with MB7 (or equivalent) beforehand, to avoid other problems like cyano, cloudy water, mulm and clumping of the pellets in your reactor. Also a good idea to start slow and ramp up over a couple months.

Good luck!!

The knowledge at the local LFS's around here about salt water is okay at best, and horribly insufficient for most of the items they sell to the customers. For example: the best skimmer, heck the only skimmer I have seen for sale in town is the coral life super skimmer. I affectionately refer to them as super soakers, since when I worked at one LFS they has a 70% return rate. The tank was taken care of previously by people who did not have the time or knowledge to upgrade them properly. Thank you all again for the suggestions. I have MB7 on order as well, I plan on using up some of my vinegar first, then I may try bio pellets down the line, budget permitting.

FitoPharmer
01-27-2013, 06:02 PM
type in diy nitrate reactor.i built mine using 2' of 3" pvc and about 30'-35 ' of black air tubing.you need around 10 plastic scouring pads,a mini ball valve,reef safe silicone and a small pump.oh ya-lots of patience-it is a pain to coil the airline inside the pvc,but a heat gun helps.the build i copied it from used 4" pvc and 50' of hose

Cool, thanks! I will check that out.

Doug
01-27-2013, 06:36 PM
Ya I was going to suggest the pellets also. Never used them but is nitrates not what they are good at.

I think an ATS for that system would be to large and messy for them. My large one did the job on my 225 but thats about it. A remote plenum sandbed also works well for nitrates and is fairly cheap. Being remote is dose not collect as much crap and is easily accessed for cleaning.

I also have friends back in Manitoba who run nitrate reactors still and have success with them.

FitoPharmer
01-27-2013, 07:37 PM
Ya I was going to suggest the pellets also. Never used them but is nitrates not what they are good at.

I think an ATS for that system would be to large and messy for them. My large one did the job on my 225 but thats about it. A remote plenum sandbed also works well for nitrates and is fairly cheap. Being remote is dose not collect as much crap and is easily accessed for cleaning.

I also have friends back in Manitoba who run nitrate reactors still and have success with them.
I have a few ideas about how to fit a nice sized ATS in without the mess normally associated with the open screen concept. I figure any lighting in the sump should help, even if it is just growing cheato.

Are plenums very effective at processing nitrate? This tank apparently had a plenum under the display at some point, but it was removed. I would assume because it did not impact the nitrates enough?

As for nitrate reactor, my search here resulted in nothing. Google gave a huge array, but nothing like what monocus is describing and most of them are for freshwater. Ill keep looking though, I think I have a pretty good idea of what it will look like.

FitoPharmer
01-27-2013, 07:43 PM
I also had a question about denitrate from seachem. In my google search for nitrate reactors I came across this stuffed into cansiters or media reactors and suggested a low flow rate of 50-60gph. It reminded me that this tank has a layer across the sump floor. Is this stuff effective when it is used at the right flow rate? or should it be removed in favor of other equipment? Some how I doubt it is getting the right flow right now. The top gets too much flow and underneath gets little to no flow and traps detritus.

Doug
01-27-2013, 08:12 PM
My friends run denitraters from SWC. I would have to look to see if still sold there.

This was the ATS I used. Screen was app. 240sq. in. Never had any phosphate or nitrate in that tank. :lol:


http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii86/Flatlander_photos/scrubber.jpg

The "guru" of plenums. Bob Goemans, has a site here that may help for plenums. He eventually conceded that one in the tank was a nutrient sink, that would eventually crash. Mostly because it was not easily accessible for cleaning.

http://saltcorner.com/


I,m pretty sure he now runs a remote, so he can clean the top layers when needed. I liked Sprungs suggestion I once read of using all crushed coral substrate for it, closer to 5mm than 2mm. Allows for better diffusion, IMO. But then Goemans is suppose to the most knowledgeable on them and has written on them since they first became popular.

This is Sprungs article on the Goeman website. Not sure if in there where he suggested 5mm or it was in a Fama article.

http://www.saltcorner.com/Articles/Showarticle.php?articleID=15

FitoPharmer
01-27-2013, 08:54 PM
Thanks Doug.