Bad over sight snowballs to big problem

[Jason McK]

I thought I was brilliant in my new tank set up. I have drilled the 2 returns in order to eliminate the need for Power heads. The returns are about 6 inch's from where the water surface is going to be.

The Big Problem is I have no means to break suction when the power is off. Is there a plumbing fitting that is like a one way valve? or do I need to start planing some big overhaul before I even get water into it.

:redface: Jason

[Delphinus]

What I'd look at doing, is, instead of a 90-degree elbow behind the bulkhead for each return, is have a sideways "T", and continue the piping upwards until it reaches a point above the water surface. Then I'd cap it off. Problem now to solve is, because your piping is outside of your tank, you can't drill a hole and have it serve as your siphon break because it will have a small volume of water coming out. What I'd look at doing then, is basically have a small diameter pipe (or better yet, some 1/4" tubing) that continues on and drains into your tank, sump, or overflow. As long as the output of this tubing is above the waterline it will serve as your siphon break when your sump return is powered down.

Or .. you could just use your existing holes for a closed loop instead of a sump return, and have your sump return still go over the tank edge (which gives you an option to drill your siphon break hole anywhere you like).

[Jason McK]

Thanks Tony, You given me to solutions. I think I'll go with the syphon break with the "T".

Jason

[Jason McK]

Just talked to a plummer friend of mine. He has suggested a Check Valve. just after the return pump. I think I'll be heading to Terason to check it out.
It would be a much cleaner solution to my problem

Jason

[Delphinus]

Sorry, I forgot to mention this earlier. I actually recommend AGAINST a check valve.

It will work as a temporary solution but it's not good for a long-term solution. They put a lot of back pressure against the pump so you will lose a lot of flow. But more importantly, as your pipes will inevitably get that slime coating buildup on the inside (because you're not pumping sterile water), the seal will fail, and water will backflow through the check valve anyways. And that's not including things like getting a little bit of sand, or a small snail shell or whatever, stuck in there ... potentially one very big mess on your hands.

Also (maybe not as important) but sometimes check valves can be very noisy, depending on how bad the flapper valve inside rattles around in flow conditions. EmilyB had one that was so loud it sounded like a jackhammer.

It's really only a temporary solution ... you can try it, but if it were my tank, I wouldn't. I did this for a while on one of my tanks a few years ago and I found out the hard way that they can fail .. and I'm not interested in cleaning them out every week. Plus, after I took it off .. I couldn't believe how much flow came out of my sump return. It was as if I had added a second pump or something ... that check valve put a LOT of restriction on my sump return.

[Delphinus]

Here's another idea ... it's not as pretty, but it should work. On the inside of the tank, off the bulkhead, have another T. The straight-through part is your main output, and the T just goes into a little standpipe that goes up to just above the waterline. Cap it off, and drill a tiny hole in it. Voila! There you have your siphon break and you didn't need to mess about with tubing or checkvalves or whatever. :biggrin:

[Jason McK]

Crap. I thought I had a clean solution but your warnings have changed my mind again.
OK so I'll go with the airline tubing and seal it to a hole just after the bulkhead. I will then run it back into the tank just at the waters surface.

Thanks again Tony.

J

[TANGOMAN]

Definately NO to the check valve, for reasons already stated...they're evil ! Not that I'd know... :rolleyes: Tony's got lot's 'o plans ! I like the closed loop idea. Definately ugly on the first idea. The last one sounded like a good one too. I'd certainly recomend doing some friction fit test runs if your going with slip fittings, just in case Tony ain't so brilliant either :lol: . The siphon break holes will have water forced out so don't point them to the ceiling...that airline feeding back to the water surface has got trouble written all over it... :confused:

"I thought I was brilliant..." that sounds like te beginning of my posts... :lol:

[Jason McK]

Thanks Tman for the follow up. Ya you know when your suppost to be working and there is people frantically looking for answers from you, 5 reports do by the end of the day and all you can do is make lists of plumbing supplies your need.
That's me today. Actually about to go into a meeting with 3 dept. heads right now.
Don't they know I've got to get this finish so I can get water in my tank!

J

[Delphinus]

The only brilliance you'll get from me is the glare off my forehead! Hey, isn't that about the same brilliance you'll get from Doug?? :lol:

Just one last parting thought. If you go with the tubing or small pipe, just use bushings and hose barbs for 1/4" pipe thread. The parts might be a little more obscure to find, but it's worth not trying to fabricate your own thing, since it will have to hold back some pressure ...

And oh yeah, wet-test anything you try (make sure spouse is not around to notice the geyser in case anything pops off). It's easy to brainstorm when it's someone ELSE who'll get yelled at for the flood on the floor ....

Good luck, whatever you try, and let us know what you end up doing.

[LostMind]

I say use the drilled holes for a closed loop (extra circulation is good!) and put the sump returns over the back :)

[Dale D]

Maybe I don't understand the set up correctly. :confused: Someone draw me a picture. :mrgreen:

Is the output of the returns 6" below the water surface?

If it is then putting a T with a cap and a hole in it will not stop the tank from back syphoning.

It will work more like a durso and gravity will push the water level in the tank down until it is below the return and that will stop the flow of water out of the tank.

Unless I am not understanding the setup correctly. :confused:

If that is the case then ignore everything I said and I will go back to sleep. :redface: :mrgreen:

[Delphinus]

It will work more like a durso and gravity will push the water level in the tank down until it is below the return and that will stop the flow of water out of the tank.

Unless I am not understanding the setup correctly. :confused:


Ohhh dear. I think you're right.

Wow, how did I miss that. :redface:

Um .. yeah Jason, I'm sorry but Dale's right. I clearly didn't have enough coooffffeeee after 4 hours of sleep last night. :neutral:

A T won't work at all. All the water will need to come all the way up, and then back down again in order for a hole to service as a siphon break. As long as you have this looped up over the top of the desired water surface, I think it will work (it will be the same as if it looped over the top of the tank wall).

I think it's that (and still have to figure out a way to deal with the water coming out the hole when the pump is turned on), or, use the drilled holes for a closed loop.

Man alive ... do I ever feel dumb. Sorry man.

[Jason McK]

Ya Dale after much thought I kinda thought of that as well.
The only way that would work is if the return line came up above the water level first. and the "T" was placed above the water line.
Some other suggestions I've had have been
true union check Valve (that way I could clean it)
mechanical valve with the no power or default position closed.

I'm sorta leaning back to the Check Valve, If I could clean it and get one of very high quality it may just do for my purposes.


now to find a local source
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_plumbing_parts_fittings_2.asp#cv
J

[Dale D]

Personally I'd be kind of leary of using a check valve. Any of the ones I have ever seen on systems have all failed after they have been in use for awhile. There's just so much stuff that can grow in the plumbing of a saltwater system and foul them up.

A union check valve that you could take apart and clean would be better as long as you are good about cleaning it on a regular basis.

I think I would use the returns for a closed loop and put a return from the sump over the back with a syphon break on it. Then you would have even more flow, :biggrin: and less to worry about going wrong.

[Jason McK]

Ya, I think I will bring the return lines above the water line and "T" it. Or drill another hole and make it a closed loop.

Oh well I tryed.

J

[TANGOMAN]

Actually, I knew all along the T wouldn't work... :redface: , that's why I advised against gluing anything initially. :redface: . I'm sure Tony knew that as well, hence he suggested you do this when no one else was around... :lol:
Oooops. Once again Tony and I battle it out for the status of "the village idiot". :lol:
Definately stay away from a check valve ! They require maintenance and anything that is difficult to access get's put off for "another day"... It's just human nature. When I used one, maintenance was put off for "many days". Well o.k, many years...see my post titled,"thank god for shop-vacs..." :wink: .
You could use a couple of 90's to bring the outlet to the surface level but that would signifficantly reduce your flow... :confused: . Cap the bulkheads and go over the back. You can incorporate a closed loop in the future...

[Jason McK]

Despite everyones warnings I have proceeded with a true union Check Valve. Feel free to say I told you so in a couple of months.
My reasons were simple, My original design was to keep it clean and simple. This does that.
My returns are all 3/4" so I went with a 1" valve that way the valve itself it 3/4 inch and this will aid in the flow restriction department. It is fully cleanable as it come apart completely. I have heeded all warnings and will expect a flood if the power does go out. I am putting a ball valve above it so if I'm home and the power goes out all I have to do is shut the ball valve. but in the 2 years I've lived here the we have never had a power failure.

I will ensure that if/when the Valve fails I will post so you can all laugh and say I told you so :biggrin:

Thanks for all your help

Jason

[Delphinus]

Well, it's conceivable you'll have no problems at all either, so who knows. It's your tank and if you think you'll be happy with that arrangement then that's really all that matters. :biggrin:

One parting thought though, it's not so much the diameter of the pipe that is causing the pressure loss, instead it's the spring that's pushing the flapper valve back (so that in the event of a loss of pressure, it's closing back and hopefully creating that seal). Also watch out for that spring, I don't know what they're made of, but since it's in saltwater watch out for corrosion. Luckily the unions will make it easy to periodically inspect for that.

How come you don't like the idea of a closed loop? Just curious.. If it were me that's probably what I would have looked at.

And .. not that it matters now but another idea might have been to go with loc-line and bring the end of the nozzle up closer to the water surface. Would help with surface agitation and if the nozzle was high enough then the water surface wouldn't have far to drop in a power-off situation.

But anyhow .. anything that works in the end is good enough. Good luck!

[Jason McK]

hey Tony. There were a few reasons I din
t want to go with a closed loop the biggest being it's only a 40G tank that is going to house mainly LPS and softies. I don't think I will need the flow. Also I would have to drill another hole and I have it too far along to do that. Also the Check Valve I purchased doesn't have a flap. It's a ball type so it's easier to clean.

What else, Matt Rogers @ 3reef.com ran a check valve for many years with out any problems. So he helped convince me it would work.
Everyones suggestions were great and if this even tries to fail I will modify the tank with any of the great suggestions.

I'll post picks when the plumbing is complete.

J

[Cap'n]

What is a closed loop?

Thanks,
Cpt Sumpless

[Delphinus]

A closed loop is a means of creating current by using an external pump. So your input(s) of the pump and the output(s) of the pump are in the same body of water, hence it is a "closed" loop (as opposed to something like a sump return, which is "lifting" water and hence "not" a closed loop).

HTH :smile:

[Cap'n]

Thanks. I assume the advantage would be keeping powerheads, etc from taking up space within the tank.
Sorry for piggybacking on the thread.
Cpt

[Jason McK]

Well I hate to say it but after three or four really bone head moves I now hate my planed overflow/return system. I should have listened to you all. So I'm going to build a simple return and the side holes are going to be converted into a closed loop. It's going to rain all week end anyway. I wonder if I'll ever get livestock in it ;)

Jason

[Lofus]

Why would you not put a T in the return line outside the tank with a riser to above the water level. Then put a breather valve on the riser. These are basically check valves that allow air into the pipe but no water out. They are designed to be siphon breaks in drain systems.

so it basically looks like this:

Riser & breather valve
|
|--- To bulkhead
|
from pump