Balling method

[The Grizz]

I seen a post here fron Royal Aquariums a while back but didn't have time to really check it out. I am very interested in this method as it says it can reduce the need for frequent water changes. Has anyone tried or using the balling method that can shed a little more light on the subject?

[Delphinus]

Done some minor reading on this. I have heard people call automated 2-part or 3-part dosing but I think the actual Balling method is dosing different things than just CaCl, Alk and Mg. In true Balling the salts used are different but result in salinity going up so in extreme cases you actually have to take water out of the tank and replace with straight RO/DI in order to maintain steady SG.

My biggest concern with this method at least locally is the steady supply of the dosing salts. This might be better nowadays than when I last looked into it though. I found with other fad-like things though (that sounds more harsh than intended but bear with me) that availability of supplies tends to be bursty - a really good supply with vendors until they run out and then there's that awkward period of time where whatever-it-is-you-need-at-the-moment has to be ordered or its on back-order or yadda yadda yadda you know the drill. So I kind of dismissed this method for myself but I can't deny that those tanks that I have seen were very very nice tanks.

The only tanks I've seen who were using true Balling were TOTM's in Europe and Japan but I would imagine will start to catch on a bit here in North America sooner or later.

[reefgirl189]

http://static.faunamarin.de/manuals/manual_balling-methode_eng.pdf

This is the balling dosing method I use, complete with the addition of trace elements. I have not been nominated for TOTM though, so that might tell you something on its effectiveness. Tank is less than a year old and I'm still figuring it out.

[Aquattro]

Not sure how adding anything dilutes DOCs in the water. pretty sure it just maintains levels of required salts.

[Delphinus]

I thought it was because when you raise the SG and start using a dosing pump to pull water out (and down the drain) and replacing with RO/DI then it's sort of like a mini water change. I dunno, maybe that's not it.

[The Grizz]

A raise in the SG would be a good thing for me as I have to put some salt into my ATO in order to maintain my SG, living out in the country our house is super dry and the evap is crazy, you should see how fast the water level drops on the pool.

[FragIt Dan]

I have run Balling and close representations to Balling over the years and always run into nutrient buildup issues. I have not spent money on great skimmers though and perhaps this would help address the nutrient issue. Also, as corals grow and get trimmed/other new ones get added consumption rates fluctuate. You can test regularly and adjust accordingly but I have resorted to regular (~30% every few weeks) water changes to address both nutrient buildup and 'drift' in my Ca, Mg and dKh levels. My cost and labour seem to be about the same as I do fewer tests, but in my case the corals seem to be happier. Others will have different experiences to report. I would suggest Balling is fundamentally meeting the need to replace Ca, Mg, Carbonates and trace elements and so is a great starting point to find out what works best for your interests in the hobby. Lots of us have ended up back doing water changes though, and this is continuously one of the most debated topics going :). If I were to speculate, I would say you will end up adapting the balling fundamentals into your own dosing regime (using various brands for supplements etc). Either way, looks like you are asking the right questions!
Dan

[Delphinus]

A raise in the SG would be a good thing for me as I have to put some salt into my ATO in order to maintain my SG, living out in the country our house is super dry and the evap is crazy, you should see how fast the water level drops on the pool.

That doesn't make sense ... Only water can evaporate leaving the salts behind which would drive the SG up not down. If your SG is drifting down then something else is going on. Do you skim fairly wet maybe?

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[FragIt Dan]

That doesn't make sense ... Only water can evaporate leaving the salts behind which would drive the SG up not down. If your SG is drifting down then something else is going on. Do you skim fairly wet maybe?

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

+1, although an undetected leak, or coral uptake of Ca, dKh and Mg would potentially drop the salinity. There was a recent post (I think maybe in TOTM??) about skimming very wet and having to add salt to ATO to make up for it. I'd want to figure out what's going on if I were you though.

[The Grizz]

That doesn't make sense ... Only water can evaporate leaving the salts behind which would drive the SG up not down. If your SG is drifting down then something else is going on. Do you skim fairly wet maybe?

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

+1, although an undetected leak, or coral uptake of Ca, dKh and Mg would potentially drop the salinity. There was a recent post (I think maybe in TOTM??) about skimming very wet and having to add salt to ATO to make up for it. I'd want to figure out what's going on if I were you though.

It has been an issue since day one on this tank & I can't figure it out either. There are no leaks as I check weekly so the wife doesn't freak out. I do have several bad spots of salt creep that drive me crazy & will be addressing with the new tank set up. My skimmer does skim some what wet but I still haven't been able to get it tuned just right, it's a Deltec 702 external recuculating skimmer so not a cheap one.

[The Grizz]

So basically I should just set up my dose with bulk Ca, Mag & whatever I need to use for dKH, then on my fourth pump dose with trace elements. I already have bulk additive & can get more from CaCoReef any time. AlsoI do have plans to build a WC system that would pump directly out to my whole house RO dirty water tank that pumps directly to my section field but that will be a big project once the new tank & wall unit are built & in place.

[FragIt Dan]

I would say the salt creep is responsible for the drop in salinity. As for needing a fourth channel on your doser, you should be able to combine the same components in your 3 chambers as is done with Balling, but using your own ingredients. IMO, no need for a fourth chamber. There are some additives, such as iodine or amino acids, that shouldn't be combined with anything you put in the first three chambers (I might use it for vinegar dosing). If you wanted to dose any of these 'other' supplements, channel 4 would be appropriate for this. Barring this, I would leave this channel unused and in reserve in case one of your motors or heads has an issue; you'll have a backup. Just my $0.02 :).
Dan

[The Grizz]

I would say the salt creep is responsible for the drop in salinity. As for needing a fourth channel on your doser, you should be able to combine the same components in your 3 chambers as is done with Balling, but using your own ingredients. IMO, no need for a fourth chamber. There are some additives, such as iodine or amino acids, that shouldn't be combined with anything you put in the first three chambers (I might use it for vinegar dosing). If you wanted to dose any of these 'other' supplements, channel 4 would be appropriate for this. Barring this, I would leave this channel unused and in reserve in case one of your motors or heads has an issue; you'll have a backup. Just my $0.02 :).
Dan

That is a good thought Dan, I plan to buy a few replacement pump just to have on hand as well.

[Myka]

Honestly, I don't think the balling method can reduce waterchanges to any significant extent. I've used semi-balling (just cal, alk, mg) for a few years now mostly using Fauna Marin salts which I prefer over the BRS bulk chems that I have tried and don't like. Anytime I try to use some of the other balling additives I run into nutrient problems and nuisance algae issues.

[The Grizz]

Still have time to research and decide. I have been supplied some info from a vendor on Ocean Fresh products that might be worth checking out as well.

[Myka]

I haven't found any of the carbon dosing in a bottle stuff to work too well for lowering nutrients, biopellets are probably the best bet there. So if you have PO4 and NO4 handled with that then you're looking at trace schtuff. Brightwell Aquatics is another I would consider looking at, and Prodibio. I really like Prodibio products - mainly the BiOptim and BioDigest (improve color even though I don't find they affect nutrients at all). The Fauna Marin Ultra Organic is a nice product but has to be used sparingly. These are affordable products that don't need daily dosing.

FWIW, try talking to your LFS about buying salt in bulk...you may be able to work a deal. Also, many suppliers have salt sales (particularly Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals) which vendors don't pass on to the customer. Ask your LFS to let you know when that sale it going on and see if s/he would cut you a deal if you buy 6 or 10 pails during the sale.

[The Grizz]

I haven't found any of the carbon dosing in a bottle stuff to work too well for lowering nutrients, biopellets are probably the best bet there. So if you have PO4 and NO4 handled with that then you're looking at trace schtuff. Brightwell Aquatics is another I would consider looking at, and Prodibio. I really like Prodibio products - mainly the BiOptim and BioDigest (improve color even though I don't find they affect nutrients at all). The Fauna Marin Ultra Organic is a nice product but has to be used sparingly. These are affordable products that don't need daily dosing.

FWIW, try talking to your LFS about buying salt in bulk...you may be able to work a deal. Also, many suppliers have salt sales (particularly Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals) which vendors don't pass on to the customer. Ask your LFS to let you know when that sale it going on and see if s/he would cut you a deal if you buy 6 or 10 pails during the sale.

I have been running pellets for well over a yr now with undectectable PO4 & NO4. So far from what I have read about Ocean Fresh it's a good stable product at a reasonable price as well.

We don't have a local store here in Red Deer so I rely on days like today to buy salt. I still have a 2 - 200 gal boxes of Reef Crystals left from last yr & picked up 6 - 160 gal buckets today @ Big Al's in Edmonton. Only way to get stuff here we need is to go to the big cities or online shop, another reason I have been thinking of setting up a small shop at home.

[Myka]

I have been running pellets for well over a yr now with undectectable PO4 & NO4. So far from what I have read about Ocean Fresh it's a good stable product at a reasonable price as well.

Ok, well that's good. Be careful not to do any unintentional carbon dosing then...some products have funny names. Stay away from anything that says it reduces nutrients or sludge buildup and that such thing as it may mess with your biopellets by screwing up the PO4/NO4 balance. Since those are working, don't F with them. :lol:

I honestly don't think adding any trace products will reduce your water changes though. I would be very skeptical of such claims. For what it costs, I think a 10% waterchange will probably get you better results.

We don't have a local store here in Red Deer so I rely on days like today to buy salt. [...] Only way to get stuff here we need is to go to the big cities or online shopDon't you have a "usual' LFS in Calgary or Edmonton? Talk to the place where you do the most of your dry goods purchasing. This is where privately owned LFS really shine. If you're doing a lot of online shipping though then you probably haven't developed a real good customer relationship with an LFS, and in that case you're up the creek. This is why I always encourage people to shop at their LOCAL Fish Store. ;)

another reason I have been thinking of setting up a small shop at home.That's probably not a great idea. If you're just doing very small amount of sales then you won't be buying enough from suppliers to get any reasonable pricing anyway and it will just be one giant PITA. Check your zoning too - it may not allow home-based business.

[Royal Aquariums]

We will be launching our own line of bulk additives in the very near future. :lol:

[The Grizz]

If used correctly pellets do a very good job IMO, at least for me. Also run ROX carbon & HC - GFO. I do have a design for a WC system so that will be in the works as well with the new tank.

I'm in pretty good with Concepts in Calgary, Blue World, Marine Aquaria & Red Coral in Edmonton. I know all the owners personally & if the need arose I know one of them would take care of me for sure.

There seems to be a bit of an increase of reefers in my area that would support something local so I'm sure it might work out. I am also sure I could piggy back on an order from the city to get supplies as well.

[Myka]

If used correctly pellets do a very good job IMO, at least for me. Also run ROX carbon & HC - GFO. I do have a design for a WC system so that will be in the works as well with the new tank.

Have you ever tried weaning off the GFO? Asking out of interests' sake. I haven't met many people that say biopellets alone keeps PO4 <0.08 ppm.

There seems to be a bit of an increase of reefers in my area that would support something local so I'm sure it might work out. I am also sure I could piggy back on an order from the city to get supplies as well.

Hahaha, "I'm sure it might"? :lol:

Why would an LFS in the city let you take customers away from them by piggybacking on their order? That doesn't make sense.

[The Grizz]

Have you ever tried weaning off the GFO? Asking out of interests' sake. I haven't met many people that say biopellets alone keeps PO4 <0.08 ppm.



Hahaha, "I'm sure it might"? :lol:

Why would an LFS in the city let you take customers away from them by piggybacking on their order? That doesn't make sense.

Ran nothing but pellets for 6 months & just for extra measure added the GFO.

Not every reefer in my area likes to travel to the city's on a monthly basis for many reason, cost to travel being one & no everyone can afford it. A couple stores I have talked to realize this & offered to get me stuff for there cost + 5% allowing me to still make some money to restock. It's called a business relationship, everyone makes a little & customers are happy.

[PFoster]

We have been running the Balling Lite method from Fauna Marin for many years now.
Balling lite is definately different that the original balling method and its much easier to follow.

We use the Fanua Marin Balling salts + the Fauna Marin Trace B (trace elements added to your ca, alk, mg solution and dosed in the required proportins)
Was anyone from Canreef at MACNA?
Hans Balling had a presentation on the Balling method there and one of his topic of conversation was with respect to the importance of the trace elements being added to your solutions as otherwise you get a very fast decrease in some of these trace element levels.

I have tried TONS and TONS of other bulk ca, alk, mg additives and nothing mixes as well, stays as crystal clear and keeps my organic levels nearly as low as the Fauna line. I read a post in this thread with respect to nurtrient build up, this may be an issue with bulk additives. I tried using a bulk alkalinity solution one time that mixed clear but after about 6 weeks i started to get a filamentous algae. Changed back to fauna, did a couple wc's and it never came back. Hard to say for sure of course,

I can take some progress pic of corals if people want, but if you want to know why our corals look so good its pretty simple. We run the Balling method.

We did just start dosing the full set of Amino acids about 5 days ago too actually. Finally had time with the holidays to get my dosing pump setup and run all the lines....

[michika]

I have tried TONS and TONS of other bulk ca, alk, mg additives and nothing mixes as well, stays as crystal clear and keeps my organic levels nearly as low as the Fauna line. I read a post in this thread with respect to nurtrient build up, this may be an issue with bulk additives. I tried using a bulk alkalinity solution one time that mixed clear but after about 6 weeks i started to get a filamentous algae. Changed back to fauna, did a couple wc's and it never came back. Hard to say for sure of course.

I keep seeing this, and similar experiences, as I waffled back and forth between balling and reactors to dose my XL system.

Can you elaborate more on the filamentous algae that came about?

I know its kind of an off question, but I'm trying to see if there is any pattern between your tank's reaction to the bulk chemicals and other similar complaints I've read/seen on RC and other forums.

I'm wondering if there is something common about the algaes and/or other symptoms people write about when they say they feel that their chemicals/additives are the cause of tank problems.

Does this make sense?

[Myka]

Catherine, I've found I struggle much more against cyano, hair algae, and a green cotton ball algae I haven't bothered to ID if I use BRS chemicals, and also if I use Instant Ocean. I've made the changes back and forth between IO and H2Ocean 4 times and had the same results. I've made the changes back and forth between FM and BRS chems twice and had the same results. It just seems I struggle to keep nutrients low when using the cheaper products. I don't run biopellets or any carbon dosing to lower nutrients, just GFO, carbon, and waterchanges for the last year or so.

Was anyone from Canreef at MACNA?
Hans Balling had a presentation on the Balling method there and one of his topic of conversation was with respect to the importance of the trace elements being added to your solutions as otherwise you get a very fast decrease in some of these trace element levels.

Yes, I was at MACNA. I missed his balling presentation, but saw his carbon dosing presentation. Friends there gave me the low down of the balling presentation though. I have had trouble with nuisance algae popping up when using the full Fauna Marin line, but since MACNA I am wanting to try the full Balling Lite line. My tank is in the care of a tank sitter for the most part until spring though, so I don't want to start changes like that right now.

[PFoster]

I have never run the full balling method, I have always been running the balling lite so that very well could be part of the difference in our experiences.
With Balling lite, a good skimmer and carbon + Phosban from either ltf or FM my redox has always been in the 400 range without ozone. Nitrate and phosphates have always been undetectable (even when i was getting the algae from the bulk additives).

For those that are not aware of the differences, the short and skinny is that the full balling method uses nacl free salts + water changes + fw top off to reduce salinity.
Balling lite does not use nacl free salts. It advices 10% weekly wc's to avoild chloride build up which really you should be doing anyways....

As for the filamentous algae its a very stringy course algae. Not hair algae and not bryopsis but green and it attaches at a single point similar to bryopsis (but def not bryopsis). I have seen this type of algae before in new tanks but my system was beyond well established. I will keep an eye out and see if I can find any at a local shop or something and snap a pic.