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turbo
12-22-2012, 08:44 PM
I need aquarium counsel please!:biggrin:

So here's my story: I started a 55 gal FOWLR in November. I let the tank cycle with some live rock I bought used and cured. The cycle was very brief. After adding a few snails and crabs and shrimp, I decided to add one blue-green chromis. A week later I added a few more chromis. Nothing was quarantined...

At that time I didn't have enough live rock so I went out and bought a bunch more. I moved all the livestock to a different tank while the new live rock was introduced to my DT. The separate tank is a basic 10 gal and I put a few pounds of live rock in it, and a cascade power filter. A few days later I moved everything except the fish back to my display tank. Then I had an aiptasia outbreak (on the new rock) and added 2 peppermint shrimp, and they completely took care of the problem for me. Awesome!

OK OK so here's where I'm at now that you have the back-story: the crabs and snails and shrimp are in my display tank and doing totally fine! The basic water parameters are stable and nothing is dying. The only loss of life has been a few chromis (3 down from 6). The three appear to be getting along now. I can't conclusively say the cause of death but in all cases the fish appeared to have physical injuries. The most recent was a slow death for the fish, I think I may have actually performed a mercy killing...:sad:

I realize I made a bunch of mistakes so far but I'm trying to correct a few things:

1. My DT probably is infected with marine ich at some point in its life cycle. So I realize that it has to sit fallow for 8 weeks without anything being added. I know the parasite needs a fish to host, so I can't re-introduce my chromis until the display tank has cleared of ich.

2. I have more LR that is sitting in 5 gal pails. The reason is I don't have the sump plumbed in yet, and this extra rock will have to live in the sump. I'm using DT discard water to replace the water on these rocks. There's no heater or pump in there, it's just sitting on the floor hot air register, and I'm adding a few capfuls of hydrogen peroxide to try and keep the water somewhat oxygenated.

3. I slowly brought down the salinity in my QT to 1.009. The live rock is still in there, it's only a few pieces, so I'm probably just going to leave it there?? I've read that a sponge filter driven by an air pump is best for quarantine filtration, so that's on my list of things to go buy.

My fish aren't really displaying any signs of ich, but I can't be certain either because really I'm not in any position to diagnose marine ich. The vibe I got from lurking on forums is that it's okay to do 6-7 weeks of hyposalinity just to be safe.

Actually the fish are doing well, almost like they're feeling better. They're vibrant and playful, and not hiding as much.

Obviously after I get this whole cluster of mistakes sorted out and the chromis are back in the display tank, I'm going to re-set the QT properly and employ a system of freshwater baths with all new fish.

And finally, the questions!!!

1. Should I continue with the hyposalinity treatment in the QT or abandon it? Should I buy some meds and attempt to treat for all the usual suspects? So far the rock in the QT hasn't been contaminated with chemicals (to my knowledge), and has only been in hyposaline water for a few days.

2. Would it be beneficial to give the chromis a freshwater bath at this time?

3. Should I wait to start the official 8 week fallow period in my DT until after I plumb in the sump, add the rest of the rock to the system (and relocate the rock from QT), and probably put a few more crabs and snails in the DT? OR should I just continue on with the extra rock in the 5gal pail, and add nothing, for the next 7 weeks since I'm already 1 week in?? (it's been one week since I added the peppermint shrimp to battle the aiptasia).

4. If I remove and relocate the rock from the QT to either the bucket or DT, I feel like I would be re-setting the 8 week clock on ICH ERADICATION. What should I do here?



I know this was a lot of reading but I appreciate any helpful input I get from people who are more knowledgeable than I. The best answer to question 3 also addresses question 4. TYVM!!!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Proteus
12-22-2012, 10:27 PM
If the fish show no sights of ich then there probably ok. Providing they eat. Chromis are hardy fish. IMO. Most deaths of these fish are from them fighting. I went from 10 to 3. You could treat DT with herbtana or like. Check the fish for rapid breathing as the gills IMO is the last stand for the paristite on the fish. IMO fresh water dip is ineffective on ich. Feed the fish well keep the hyposalinity and if there healthy then try put in DT. Just wait and qt next fish. A 6dollar chomis is better to loose than a 250 wrasse

albert_dao
12-22-2012, 11:23 PM
Screw it, I'm going to write a no-BS guide to SW for newbies..

Give me a few days :)

Doug
12-22-2012, 11:44 PM
Any of our reference library of any help.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=40

turbo
12-22-2012, 11:53 PM
Screw it, I'm going to write a no-BS guide to SW for newbies..

Give me a few days :)


haha yeah there's tonnes of info on the net already. most of it has been composed by highly informed scientists, wordsmiths, and overall very experienced aquapeople. (unlike myself in all counts):wink: The onus is on me, as the browser of all this info, to sift thru the BS and find the truth, and use other people's experience in the hobby to facilitate my own attempts.

there's a big difference in making mistakes because you're new and inexperienced and making mistakes due to a lack of respect and understanding.

i spend a few hours a week (more like a few hours a day sometimes) reading info on the net. not just about saltwater aquariums, but many other topics as well. so i'll be more than happy to read your no-BS guide to SW for newbs, i'm just saying... they're out there already. that's not to say your particular contribution to the library won't be beneficial.

if everything could be solved by just reading guides then there wouldn't be any more specific questions.:question::question: Nobody would be able to post anything unless it were actual new information or scientific research

I just spent all day reading. I'm tired of reading! Now I have questions. Usually for every answer you get from browsing the forums there's five more questions you want to ask.

What I need at this time is tailored advice to my particular situation.

albert_dao
12-23-2012, 02:05 AM
haha yeah there's tonnes of info on the net already. most of it has been composed by highly informed scientists, wordsmiths, and overall very experienced aquapeople.


Except so much of it is self-fellating and overtly narcissistic diatribe instead of straight forward "1, 2, 3, this is how you do a friggin reef tank" advice. It's also disjointed to the new hobbyist to jump from one article to another with no way of creating some sort of... umm, unifying theory.

turbo
12-23-2012, 02:45 AM
unifying theory.

lol. impossible feat.

I understand what your goal is. I'm also eager to read it.

So anyways, I seek to employ the "Berlin Method" in this system's filtration.

overflow --> refugium with deep sand bed --> sump with protein skimmer --> display tank

with regards to acclimation and quarantine, I did some good reading today from this Leebca guy (his posts are hard to avoid), and his language is long winded and pretentious ("no less than"....), but I personally believe that his described method of a freshwater bath prior to QT observation sounds like a no-brainer when it comes to assessing the condition of a fish, and as a first step towards treatment of diseases and parasites. I read this man's bio he has decades of experience in quarantining and observing sick fish.

I also believe in ich eradication, based on what I've read, using a fallow period in the DT and a hyposalinity period for fish.

Questions like: should I always use hypo? and is my cascade power filter going to work for denitrification? can always just be answered with a Google search...........:x-mas::x-mas:

albert_dao
12-23-2012, 04:39 AM
Honestly, you'd have an easier time just employing copper. Copper is a mack daddy way to get rid of ich. I've quarantined thousands of fish (possibly tens of thousands, no hyperbole) without issue.

There are a lot of guys out there who describe all these "thoughtful" and "holistic" natural pathways to healthy fish. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. I've yet to see solid evidence and studies that weren't completely transparent in their methodology. Most of the articles are ideological rather than practical. Anyway, they have a name for alternative therapy that works, it's called medicine, lol.

I've also tried the whole fallow thing. Seems like an awful waste of effort since it's so damn easy to reintroduce the parasite through something as simple as buying a coral frag...

Regarding hypo: do it. Saves salt, fish use less energy expelling salt from their system. Some diseases aren't as virulent. Win/win for all.

I'll address the Berlin thing in my writeup.

mandyplo
12-25-2012, 11:15 PM
I've also tried the whole fallow thing. Seems like an awful waste of effort since it's so damn easy to reintroduce the parasite through something as simple as buying a coral frag...

Regarding hypo: do it. Saves salt, fish use less energy expelling salt from their system. Some diseases aren't as virulent. Win/win for all.

I'll address the Berlin thing in my writeup.

Hi so you would recommend hypo in DT ? I was thinking of doing this (no corals
Or clams atm) but was worried about it hurting the live rock... Will the L.R be okay with hypo? Thanks

turbo
12-26-2012, 05:06 PM
Hi Mandy,

I'm going to give you my experience with hypo, since I'm presently administering this treatment to my fish. I am not an expert on anything, but my advice to you is this:

Hyposalinity treatment cures fish of marine ich when administered properly. It will also kill all marine invertebrates. It is my understanding that it will not kill the denitrifying bacteria in our systems. It will not cure anything except ich.

As stated already, there is no point to eradicating marine ich unless you plan to exhibit the required discipline to keep it out of your system. Something "as simple as a coral frag" can and will re-introduce the parasite. You MUST be prepared to quarantine every single thing you buy after you eradicate the parasite.

I can see with my own eyes that all of the invertebrates on my live rock are indeed dying in my quarantine tank. For this reason: most recommend that you seed a sponge filter first before starting up the QT, and not use live rock. Otherwise, all marine life on the rock will die (except for the denitrifying bacteria). This will trigger an ammonia spike as the organic matter decays. Be prepared for this, and combat it with 50% water changes as frequently as you can.

The proper series of steps for using hypo to eradicate marine ich is as follows:

1. Identify the parasite in your system, and identify the need to remove it. Prepare yourself mentally for a long future of quarantining all additions. If you're not prepared to quarantine everything, then don't waste your time with this at all.

2. DO NOT use hypo in your display tank!!! All marine life except your fish will die!! Marine ich needs a FISH to perpetuate its life cycle. If you remove the fish from your display tank, the parasite WILL BE GONE after 8 weeks. Just don't do it.

3. Once all of your fish have been quarantined, begin a hyposalinity regime on your quarantine tanks only. There's lots of reading to do, but make sure you're using a properly calibrated refractometer, and maintain salinity at 11 ppt. This treatment takes 8 weeks and then the fish will be cured of marine ich.

4. Once your fish are cured, and ready to go back to the display tank, your tank will also be cured. Then who has ich?? NOBODY!!! :)