PDA

View Full Version : Running a Skimmerless tank


Coralgurl
12-20-2012, 06:06 PM
I've been running my 55gl tank skimmerless since March this year. I have a canister filter with GFO and carbon, plus fluval prefilters & foam pads which I clean every 2 weeks and change media every month. No sump.

I also have an MP10 and 2 Koralias for powerheads, running t5ho lights (2 bulb) and a vertex illuminix LED as supplemental lighting. There are currently 7 fish (2 clowns, 2 chromis, 1 flameback angel, midas blenny and flame hawkfish).

Have a mix of corals, mostly zoas, hammer, torch, frogspawn, brain and a large nem. mixed CUC, snails, hermits.

In the past few weeks I've had a really good cyano outbreak. I know I overfeed as my bristle worms are quite large. Corals are growing well and seem happy.

I have not tested my parameters in months, but obvioulsy have something going on. I did run a skimmer on the tank for almost a year, but it never really did much. Its a Tunze 9011 in tank, since I removed it, I love the additional space I have.

Is there a good way to continue to run this tank skimmerless or would throwing one on make that much of a difference, considering the cyano? There is no other pest algae in the tank otherwise.

Proteus
12-20-2012, 06:11 PM
Why not use a hang on refugium and stop feeding so much. What you save In food would pay for the fuge in a year lol

Nano
12-20-2012, 06:13 PM
Think about this...
My tank ran well for 8 months till my skimmer crapped out, it took me nearly three months to get it working again, in that time I've lost probably a dozen sps, tons of zoos, and battled cyano and gha/bubble algae, cloudy water. I had to take my rock out and cook it cause nothing or not enough was being removed by weekly water changes. Imo adding to the build up of nutrients in my system.

It's finally skimming as of yesterday, and already my water is 100x more clear, so I can only imagine the long term benefits.

FitoPharmer
12-20-2012, 06:14 PM
Cyano is a mysterious algae at times. And you are right to think a skimmer will not necessarily solve your problem. Since many people including myself can attest to having cyano in tanks with proper sized skimmers. When I had it the first time a few new power heads solved the problem. It can back again, I cheated and used chemi-clean.

Coralgurl
12-20-2012, 06:17 PM
Why not use a hang on refugium and stop feeding so much. What you save In food would pay for the fuge in a year lol

Cuz my fish like to eat and always look like they are starving... :lol: I tried a HOB fuge but it was loud and splashed coming back into the tank, took it off to clean and well the bf broke it.

The tank has run fine until recently, maybe this is just catching up with me now....

Coralgurl
12-20-2012, 06:22 PM
Cyano is a mysterious algae at times. And you are right to think a skimmer will not necessarily solve your problem. Since many people including myself can attest to having cyano in tanks with proper sized skimmers. When I had it the first time a few new power heads solved the problem. It can back again, I cheated and used chemi-clean.

I just cleaned my powerheads, thought they were looking a little clogged up.

I'm thinking the skimmer would help to remove a lot of waste which may be building in the tank. I have no plans to add any additional fish, just fill with corals now.

There is a bit of scummy stuff that sits on the water surface, I moved a ph to aggitate one side a bit better, but its not getting removed from the tank or water. The water itself is quite clear and crisp looking though, not cloudy or "dirty" looking. I may throw the skimmer back in and see what happens.

Proteus
12-20-2012, 06:25 PM
Cuz my fish like to eat and always look like they are starving... :lol: I tried a HOB fuge but it was loud and splashed coming back into the tank, took it off to clean and well the bf broke it.

The tank has run fine until recently, maybe this is just catching up with me now....

You could always build one with a full siphon to quite the noise.

Haha. You fishies given you puppy dog eyes.
I feed sparingly but I'm a hard ass. Haha

Reef Pilot
12-20-2012, 06:29 PM
Have you tried MB7? It competes with cyano, and is very effective with preventing it when using bio-pellets. But can't see why it wouldn't work at anytime in your tank.

My QT/frag tank does not have a skimmer. But I make large water changes using my DT water when I change it. My DT has a skimmer, of course, and N03 and P04 are both zero now, so that water is still pretty clean when it goes into my QT.

kien
12-20-2012, 07:49 PM
There are a crap load of opinions on the use of the skimmer, and here's yet another one :-)

I don't think that a skimmer is absolutely necessary for your size of tank but it definitely would be beneficial. Skimmers were invented for a reason, they do what mother nature does with sea foam and that is remove dissolved organics. In the absence of this contraption that removes dissolved organics from the water you have to decide for yourself if you and your tank are OK with what's in your tank water in terms of nutrients. Some tanks will run fine with higher nutrients some don't. If you're not OK with the higher nutrients then you have to figure out a way to export them, either by way of more frequent or larger water changes or add a skimmer. A canister filter does not do the job of a skimmer. It will mechanically remove larger particles from your display tank but will not skim out the dissolved organics like a skimmer will.

As for the cyano issue, I had a cyano outbreak in my tank last week. In tracking down the problem I noticed that one of my powerheads was acting funny and would periodically stop working. I also noticed a lot of build up on the intake grills of my powerheads. Over the year I just got used to the flow so never really noticed that it got reduced considerably over time. I planned to clean up the powerheads as I normally do once a year but instead just bought new ones. Immediately I could tell that the flow from the older powerheads was indeed drastically reduced compared to the brand new powerheads. A week with the new powerheads and the cyano has mostly gone now. For me cyano ALWAYS creeps up in areas of lowest flow.

If that did not work I had a Plan B which also has worked for me in the past and that is to use Coral Snow. I recall reading somewhere that someone used it and it got rid of their cyano. I tried it myself last year and sure enough, it worked. Your mileage may vary of course.

Palmer
12-21-2012, 12:57 AM
In my personal experience Cyano if introduced to the tank on a coral or piece of rock can thrive in a well balanced and mature reef tank. Yes yes I know algae needs light and nutrients but I have seen several cases where the stuff needs to be eradicated in order to get rid of it and then said tanks are fine afterwards. So I have used Chemi clean and find it works very well. If your nitrates are low/undetectable and you have good flow new bulbs and are not overfeeding I would recommend it and given the above it should not come back. Be careful to follow the directions though I always add an air pump line for oxygenation turn the skimmer off (if you decide to turn it on!) and follow the directions on the water change.

On the skimmer note I must admit I dont have a lot of faith in skimming. I dont disagree that it has a purpose and becuase it is used in industrial applications that to me gives more creedence to it. But the articles I have read on the amount of organics removed by typical aquarium skimmers makes me doubt their overall utility as a must have. With that said I have a couple and use them just like everyone else I think they are a component to a healthy reef tank but not the be all end all in my opinion (thats why I will never own a Bubble King lol....)

gregzz4
12-21-2012, 01:03 AM
IMO, running a skimmer-less tank is asking your fish to continue to swim in their own pee :surprise: Ewww

BTW, cyano is not an algae, not that there's anything wrong with that ...

Palmer
12-21-2012, 01:15 AM
IMO, running a skimmer-less tank is asking your fish to continue to swim in their own pee :surprise: Ewww

BTW, cyano is not an algae, not that there's anything wrong with that ...

Yes your right its not lol I slipped on that one but I think we subject them to pee baths either way lol That's why I believe in water changes

gregzz4
12-21-2012, 01:26 AM
I wasn't 'finger pointin' :smile:
I see cyano called algae a lot, and more than once in this post

I still like using my skimmer
I get about 250ml per week of very skanky stuff, so I think it's beneficial to run one

On the other hand, I've seen some pretty nice tanks this last year that are skimmer-less so, in the hands of learned reefers, I guess either way is OK :noidea:

The only other thing that comes to mind is whether or not running skimmer-less gives your home a fishy smell

Madreefer
12-21-2012, 01:34 AM
[QUOTE=gregzz4;775502

The only other thing that comes to mind is whether or not running skimmer-less gives your home a fishy smell[/QUOTE]

Well when I dont empty my skimmer cup for 4-5 days my basement where my sump is smells like an effluent plant, but my skimmer cup is about the size of a pail of ice cream. And Palmer you would have a change of opinion on the Bubble King skimmrs after running one on your tank for a while. I've tried alot of different skimmers and you cant beat them IMO.

Coralgurl
12-21-2012, 01:34 AM
I wasn't 'finger pointin' :smile:
I see cyano called algae a lot, and more than once in this post

I still like using my skimmer
I get about 250ml per week of very skanky stuff, so I think it's beneficial to run one

On the other hand, I've seen some pretty nice tanks this last year that are skimmer-less so, in the hands of learned reefers, I guess either way is OK :noidea:

The only other thing that comes to mind is whether or not running skimmer-less gives your home a fishy smell

I think for now I'll increase the canister cleaning to weekly, cut the lights a few hours a day (currently running from 1:30 pm - 9:30 pm). I've been over feeding since adding a couple of fish, but they are eating fine so not as much of a concern, will cut back on feedings. as we are going away in a few weeks, if I treat with chemi clean, it's either now or February to do so.

I'd like to keep it skimmer less as it really has been doing well. I find my 180 has more of a fishy smell than this one.

I'll test nitrates and phosphates tonight too and post later.

Palmer
12-21-2012, 01:36 AM
Yes that will teach me to stop using abreviations (i.e. cyano) to help me remember.

Not that this proves me correct but I posted this article here awhile back. After reading it I was quite suprised at the conclusions. With that said I like plastic candy as much as anyone else and having come from freshwater aquariums first I thought skimmers were the cats pajamas when starting my first SW tank and given enough evidence I could be convinced to hook a lava lamp to my sump and would love it.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

Another interesting thing is most say that skimmers are only good for SW due to the surface tension but they use skimmers in commercial freshwater fish farming. I dont exactly know how/why but I always assumed the high nutrient levels in fish farming tanks could increase the salt or dissolved organics enough to create a significant enough surface tension to create bubbles...

11purewater
12-21-2012, 01:38 AM
Skimmerless and sumpless for 7 months,but to much boidiversity and bioload so skimmer being installed this weekend.finite space ,poor rocks can only do so much:biggrin:http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=742&pictureid=5726

Palmer
12-21-2012, 01:42 AM
And Palmer you would have a change of opinion on the Bubble King skimmrs after running one on your tank for a while. I've tried alot of different skimmers and you cant beat them IMO.

You know I totally believe you I would probably love it but my tank is in good shape and has been without significant issue so I dont want to find out I want to remain naive lol... I would rather put the additional money into an expensive controller or another expensive powerhead.

gregzz4
12-21-2012, 01:48 AM
Well when I dont empty my skimmer cup for 4-5 days my basement where my sump is smells like an effluent plant
That's a very good point, but I was thinking more about a skimmer-less tank stinking

I find my 180 has more of a fishy smell than this one
It makes sense if you feed your 50 less than your 180, or different WCs, or the Bioload ... Something about your 50 may be 'cleaner'

And something I meant to add awhile back ...

If it's working well the way it is now, don't fix it :mrgreen:

11purewater
12-21-2012, 01:53 AM
mine 's in my showroom at work ,no stinking allowed!therefore it doesn't stink except for reef crystals odor:biggrin:

Coralgurl
12-21-2012, 03:08 AM
Yes that will teach me to stop using abreviations (i.e. cyano) to help me remember.

Not that this proves me correct but I posted this article here awhile back. After reading it I was quite suprised at the conclusions. With that said I like plastic candy as much as anyone else and having come from freshwater aquariums first I thought skimmers were the cats pajamas when starting my first SW tank and given enough evidence I could be convinced to hook a lava lamp to my sump and would love it.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

Another interesting thing is most say that skimmers are only good for SW due to the surface tension but they use skimmers in commercial freshwater fish farming. I dont exactly know how/why but I always assumed the high nutrient levels in fish farming tanks could increase the salt or dissolved organics enough to create a significant enough surface tension to create bubbles...

Great article! Gonna stick with my plan above. After reading this, I'd like to gauge the difference between the 2 tanks over time.

Obviously bio loads are different but are relative to each system. Water change schedule is the same for both ATM, every 2 weeks.

Things were working great, something has changed. Picked up new filters for the RO unit, just need to switch over. Getting motivated to go grab water and lug upstairs.....warm on the couch with a fire going......

Jakegr
12-21-2012, 03:36 AM
To get rid of the cyano, have you considered leaving the lights off in your tank for a 3-4 days?

http://www.reefaddicts.com/content.php/42-Cyanobacteria-what-is-it-and-how-can-I-get-rid-of-it

Coralgurl
12-21-2012, 03:51 AM
I will turn them off as of tomorrow night. I'd rather be around for a few days to keep an eye on things. As of tomorrow I'm off til jan 2nd so I can focus a bit more on the tanks!! :lol:

gregzz4
12-21-2012, 04:18 AM
I know, I should read your whole thread Sheena ...
Have you tried changing your powerhead locations and siphon out the cyano daily ?

From what I've learned on Canreef, once cyano gets a foot-hold, the only good way to get rid of it is to siphon it out
It may start with low, or high, flow rates. Once you have it, increasing flow will probably make it worse as you are now 'feeding' it

After it's gone, increasing flow rates in the previously affected areas may reduce or stop it's return as you are stopping food from settling in that area

Coralgurl
12-21-2012, 04:56 AM
I know, I should read your whole thread Sheena ...
Have you tried changing your powerhead locations and siphon out the cyano daily ?

From what I've learned on Canreef, once cyano gets a foot-hold, the only good way to get rid of it is to siphon it out
It may start with low, or high, flow rates. Once you have it, increasing flow will probably make it worse as you are now 'feeding' it

After it's gone, increasing flow rates in the previously affected areas may reduce or stop it's return as you are stopping food from settling in that area

Changing power head location - yes, siphon - no. I've been blowing it off the rocks and catching with a net to pull out. It's mostly on the sand on the front of the tank but moving upwards.

I've changed the carbon filter on my RO unit, can't get the RO filter out, back at it in a bit. Wow, I'm pretty sure the water is part of the problem, the filter is dirty. I have to head back to concept as I need the prefilter as well so won't run more water till I pick that up.

Funny how this hobby throws things at you from every angle. Note-when tds hits 6, time to change filters, at 9, the problems have started! Will change long before it gets that high in the future!

I don't think running skimmer less is the problem and this tank can continue to go without one as long as everything else is looked after.

gregzz4
12-21-2012, 05:23 AM
I don't think running skimmer less is the problem and this tank can continue to go without one as long as everything else is looked after.
OK then, but you did start this thread on the basis of running it without one ..................






:smile:

Coralgurl
12-21-2012, 05:33 AM
I did. But I don't think skimmer less is the problem 100%. I'll work on things over the next while and see if I can get it back the way it was a couple of weeks ago. With better water again and water changes, less feedings and lights out, should be able to get rid of the cyano. If not, then I'll throw the skimmer in and see if that helps.

It does look like people do run slimmer less successfully, just with different husbandry practices. This is my simple tank and want to keep it that way.:lol:

gregzz4
12-21-2012, 06:02 AM
I did. But I don't think skimmer less is the problem 100%. I'll work on things over the next while and see if I can get it back the way it was a couple of weeks ago. With better water again and water changes, less feedings and lights out, should be able to get rid of the cyano. If not, then I'll throw the skimmer in and see if that helps.

It does look like people do run slimmer less successfully, just with different husbandry practices. This is my simple tank and want to keep it that way.:lol:
I didn't mean to say you should run this tank skimmer-less :smile:
I only meant to say ....
You are successfully running a 50g in this manner and you will have to look at your husbandry to make your decision ...

I'm no help ... I'm going to go look at the end of the world stuff now
Good Luck