55 Gal FOWLR - seeking criticism

[turbo]

Hello. Not sure if I'm posting this in the wrong forum? I want to put up some pictures and info on my FOWLR, and receive a little advice or criticism or encouragement haha.

So anyways my gf and I are taking this on as a joint project. We are both one thousand percent brand new to this hobby. In the future she would like to have a reef aquarium, and we're talking about starting up a nano sometime in 2013.

I've done a lot of lurking on the major reefkeeping forums, and other essays available on the subject of marine aquariua (mostly thru google searches) but I admit I've never browsed this particular site. Was referred here from LFS.

For now it's a 55 gal FOWLR. :twised: If I should go ahead and post stats and questions etc just-a lemme know thanks! I have a few pictures up and we're gonna try to get some more posted.

[tim the toolman]

Welcome to the jungle lol. Lots of good reading to be done on this site for sure. And lots of people willing to give great advice. Good luck with your salty future!

[Nizzmo]

Key to success is super filtered water changes!

[turbo]

yeah that's the first bit... a RO/DI filter is on the "wish list" hahaha

We're using SeaChem alpha for reefs to dechlorinate the water. I'm just filling 5 gal pails in the tub at the slowest flow rate (i.e. coldest water) possible.

Anyways I'm just sort of working on my sump right now. The burning question I have is whether a single pump setup is appropriate? I really want to keep it simple with the plumbing. This tank and setup will always be FOWLR.

So my idea is this: there is a way oversized overflow box (eshopps Pf-1200) hanging off the side of the tank right now just waiting on a little more plumbing. Anyways, I'm thinking of letting it gravity drain into the intake on my protein skimmer (Weipro SA-2015), and then run a small hose from the spigot into chamber 1 (10 gal sump with 3 chambers). I'm going to pack the rest of my LR into the middle chamber and then I have a pump called HQB-2500 (2000 L/h) which I'll put in chamber 3, and this will go directly back to the DT.

So I guess the theory is that since the overflow box exceeds the pump, and since the pump matches the skimmer (actually it's a little small), I should be able to run the pump full blast and the whole system should operate smoothly riiiiiighht??? haha:redface:

I did put a ball valve on the return line. I've read a lot that people suggest you add a tee into the drain before it gets to the skimmer, but that's if your drain exceeds the flow capacity of the skimmer (it must be), which mine does not.... so I have no tee. Instead, I figure that the one ball valve should control all flow rate since there is only the one pump!

[Nizzmo]

I'm not sure, I'm almost as new as you! I just noticed a huge difference in my tank quality when I didn't use dechlorinated tap water. I work at a brewery so I have to haul buckets of filtered water home with me ( sucks).

I've never done a sump so I'm very interested in how you do yours! I'll keep my eye on this post

[turbo]

sure thing i'll put some pics up too as the day progresses. it's pretty ghetto because i didn't really frame up enough room for anything bigger than 10gal in my cabinet. it's just too narrow!!! <12" - a definite oversight. oh wells have to be happy with what i have. i bought literally everything second hand (except the overflow box), and after researching the model of skimmer that i bought, i learn a lot of people consider it to be a Hong Kong POS; but I saw the guy's tank he had it in operation and skimming.

i guess the biggest downfall is that i probably won't be able to keep a refugium, so mandarinfish is out (d'oh!) ... maybe in the reef someday.

Anyways, if anybody reading this thinks that the single-pump idea I outlined is bad/good or could use improvement feel free to share your opinions. tyvm!

[kien]

My one criticism so far is that I don't see any pictures here :-)

[turbo]

Okay so hello again. I have to admit I failed pretty badly with plumbing this thing in. First thing was getting past the guy at the LFS (because he also sells the PVC and fittings and stuff - more of the 1" product than Home Depot carries).

He thought it was a terrible idea to have a direct-feed from the overflow to the protein skimmer. He said that it was wrong, not the way "we" do things, my house will flood, oh well hardwood floor isn't so bad, so is the aquarium in the basement? on and on lol. Finally he sold me the stuff I wanted. According to him, I need two pumps minimum (one return and one feeding the skimmer) and the skimmer must reside in the sump.

And as I got about building I had to change up some of the original design on the fly (partly because my vinyl hose is NOT flexible enough) and partly because my cabinet is so narrow that to avoid the structural members I actually had to drill my drain holes in a vertical line rather than beside one another.

So I actually teed the two 1" PVC drains into one 3/4" vinyl hose, because that matches the inlet on the skimmer. So, uh... is this bad or what? Does it defeat the purpose of having two drains... or is it GOOD because we will see high pressure coming from this hose into the protein skimmer???


http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=773&pictureid=5704

the other dry-assembled contraption there is the return piping.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=773&pictureid=5703

and finally...
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=773&pictureid=5702

[turbo]

ok so i ran a wet test and the drain is able to handle the flow from the pump. i pumped freshwater full blast from a 5 gal pail to the external side of the overflow and it just went down the drain and back into the bucket. the water level never changed but holy mackerel it's loud haha!

and this ruined my evening: the inlet on my cheapskate protein skimmer is now broken,:censored: and i thought it would be okay if i just jammed a hose onto it and clamped it. this is not okay, though. this leaks. so i am presently unable to use this protein skimmer AT ALL until I can repair this little problem.:lalala:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=773&pictureid=5705


http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=773&pictureid=5706

I'm left with the following questions:

1. will the proposed drain and vinyl hose be ok? it worked for 45 seconds will it work for 10 years? am i asking for trouble by joining the two drains into one?

2. will my overflow box always be so freakin' lowd???????

3. how the heck can i use this protein skimmer now?? any plumbing experts or material engineers offer some advice for an adhesive or cement? i can't say what type of material this skimmer is made of.

[intarsiabox]

I don't know anything about your particular skimmer so not much help there. I see that you have two drain lines on your overflow that you tee'd off into a single line. This cut yur drain capacity in at least half depending the output size of the tee. I'm not familiar with eshopps overflows either but maybe it needs to be at full capacity for it to be quiet. If you want to continue to use an external skimmer I would have one drain line go to the skimmer intake and the other go directly into the first chamber of your sump (not the return section).

[Mike-fish]

The single pump should be fine. I prefer to have a bit of redundancy in my tanks but my tanks are also much larger so I have the room and with the flow rates I run a single pump becomes far less practical. I'll be sending you a pm shortly. I would defiantly change your plumbing such that both drain lines drop separately to the sump that way should there ever be a problem with one tube being restricted chances are that the other will be enafected and be able to take most of the flow. The vinyl lines should be fine for years to come on my 175g that I've had for about 5?years now has used them from day one I just can't remember if when we got it off a friend we put new lines on to it or not if not there close to 10 years old by now.

[turbo]

Thanks to everyone for the replies so far!:lol::lol: I'm going to continue posting here until my sump is operational, so please bear with me!!! Don't worry, I am an avid internetter and am not relying solely on you good people for all of my answers.:n00b:

One little bit of wisdom I've picked up working in construction is that if something looks stupid: it is stupid. It doesn't take a plumber to know that I did it wrong haahaw D'OH!. My whole life is one mistake after another so why should I complain if my aquarium follows the same pattern? C'est la vie. The worst part about DUMPING money into an aquarium is that half the time it's the wrong decision! AHH:flame:the other bad part about dumping money into an aquarium is that our coins are made of copper.

OK down to business:

So far most of the advice I've received highlights the following issues in my setup:

1. I teed two drains down into one and cut the radius down by 50%. This will increase the output pressure of the drain (fourfold) but drastically reduces the flow rate. Most of the recommendations I've received suggest that I keep the box operating as TWO drains. Run one to the skimmer and one to the sump.

2. It's way more complicated than it needs to be.


:mrgreen: I've come up with two solutions of my own and so my NEXT question to post in this thread is as follows: WHICH SOLUTION IS BEST FOR MY SETUP?

Solution 1: Keep one of the drains in my overflow box as an emergency, or ancillary drain, which only kicks in after the first one fails or backs up. This is easily accomplished by cutting one of the PVC standpipes or installing a larger one on one side. The e-drain will go directly to the sump while the main drain will go directly to the skimmer. :neutral: This way I am only using one drain 99% of the time. I think this will be OK because it is 1" PVC and it should drain at near-capacity if I'm pumping 300gph into the tank.

Solution 2: Remove (and sell) the $125 overflow box :redface: that is rated to drain over 1000gph. It vastly exceeds the pump, and the skimmer, and will NEVER operate at capacity on this tank. It will gurgle 24/7 for as long as I insist on using it. It relies on two U-tube siphons. Construct a basic PVC overflow which pipes to the skimmer, and tees to the sump (although I am still skeptical about this it seems like the right thing to do).

Last thing: if door #2 is the winner ... is there a type of valve I can install that will direct all flow to the skimmer until there is an emergency situation, at which time it will re-direct the flow into the sump?

[Aquattro]

Personally, I like the LFS advice. I would run the skimmer in the sump on it's own pump. I would drain the overflow with 2 lines directly into the sump. One day something is going to go down that tube, either fish, snail, or something. I wouldn't want it going into my skimmer :) But hey, I like pumps, I run 5 in my sump -lol
Not knowing what type of skimmer it is, it might not even work without a pump. is it airstone driven? If not, gravity probably won't have enough pressure to work a venturi well.
Most overflows are noisy, so you need to modify the intake with a durso or stockman type fitting to get it quiet. You may not have room judging by the pics.

[turbo]

Personally, I like the LFS advice. I would run the skimmer in the sump on it's own pump. I would drain the overflow with 2 lines directly into the sump. One day something is going to go down that tube, either fish, snail, or something. I wouldn't want it going into my skimmer :) But hey, I like pumps, I run 5 in my sump -lol
Not knowing what type of skimmer it is, it might not even work without a pump. is it airstone driven? If not, gravity probably won't have enough pressure to work a venturi well.
Most overflows are noisy, so you need to modify the intake with a durso or stockman type fitting to get it quiet. You may not have room judging by the pics.

Hi. That is good advice. Sometimes it's one of those things where we (as people) would rather ignore the truth than face it head-on. The skimmer is presently broken at the inlet (as shown in the pics). After discussing the issue with my girlfriend we've decided to keep the overflow box, because we bought it and stuff. She absolutely does not approve of removing the overflow box and trying to sell it, and building a simple PVC overflow in its place.

I really was just planning on having the gravity drain make the skimmer work, but what the heck is the point of using a skimmer if it's not operating properly?

I bet I could talk her out of the Weipro skimmer, and cut our losses. Maybe I can sell it in its broken condition for half price or something.

Maybe it would be best to plumb both drains right to the sump and then invest in a good brand name skimmer and pump. Can you recommend one that would still sit externally (as there isn't much room in the sump). I guess if leaking was an issue I could put the skimmer in a 5 gal pail but the sump is only 10 gal and I want to keep some rock in there. There's room in the cabinet for equipment to sit beside the sump (i.e. external skimmer).

I guess the last thing I need to ask then, is: since the overflow is much too large for the tank, can I use only one of the drains, and keep the second one as backup (in case of a water level increase in the overflow)? I realize two drains operating in parallel will double the flow out of the tank, but I am not sure that's what I want here. One 1" drain should probably do the trick.

[Aquattro]

If possible, I'd get a bigger sump. More (cheaper) skimmers available for in-sump use.
As for drains, yes, 1 would be fine, I use 2 x 1" on my 180 and I'm happy with that, so half that on almost 1/4 of the tank would be fine.
I'd look for a used euroreef or other needle wheel skimmer, they're for sale here all the time.

[turbo]

Alright tyvm to everyone who helped out. The final decision is to plumb 2x 1" drains directly into my sump (one dedicated drain for the tank and a second as an emergency in case of a plug). Then I'll get the water pumping and all the new plumbing tested. Then I'll add a skimmer to the system.

Part of the urgency is that I have more LR to add to my system, which is going in the sump, and I have fish in QT that are about to start hyposalinity. So my tank has to sit fallow for 8 weeks but I need the LR in there first. I also want to add a few more crabs.

I'll post again when it's built. Might have to wait for the weekend.

[turbo]

Hello all, again.

More than a week has passed but I've finally decided what I'm going to do for this sump and tank drain system.

For anyone who's still subscribed to this thread, recall that I had attempted to tee the two main drainpipes into a single 1" vinyl tube, which I was going to pump 100% of the volume through an old, partially broken skimmer, before having it drain into a 10 gal sump and get pumped back up to my tank.

Not such a hot idea right.....?:redface:

Anyways, after more hours and hours of reading, and consulting some members on this site, I've designed a sump for my cabinet. Since the dimensions of my cabinet are already specified, I had to get a custom tank built or else I could go no larger than 10gal due to the width restriction.

This tank I have designed holds close to 30gal, which I believe is a much better fit for a 55gal FOWLR. I've also opted to run both drains from the overflow to the sump, and not tie them together ...

This custom tank is already bought and paid for and it's being built. So it's a little late for me to change anything!! But I would love to get some feedback (from a variety of people) on this.:biggrin::biggrin:

N.B. flow rates are approximate!! the skimmer and pump have not been purchased yet


http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=773&pictureid=5730


here's the cabinet i built
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=770&pictureid=5687

[gregzz4]

Nice lookin cab

I think it was Brad who suggested before that you don't restrict either of your drains. If one gets plugged you may have a bad experience

I'd suggest you run both your drains wide open and use a small pump to feed the 'fuge

[turbo]

Nice lookin cab

I think it was Brad who suggested before that you don't restrict either of your drains. If one gets plugged you may have a bad experience

I'd suggest you run both your drains wide open and use a small pump to feed the 'fuge

yeah i concur about both drains wide open. i don't understand the need for yet another pump for the refuge though, if it's receiving overflow water on a steady basis and draining into the skimmer dept., shouldn't that be ok???

[gregzz4]

It'll all depend on the design of your sump

[turbo]

it's designed so 50% of the overflow runs to the refuge directly, (after baffling)
the other 50% runs to the skimmer chamber

the refuge overflows to the skimmer chamber

so basically the skimmer chamber is experiencing 100% of the flow. It's the last in line before the return pump. All of the water passes by the skimmer but only half of it passes thru the refuge.

Initially I thought I would dial down the flow to the refugium and have most of it go to the skimmer chamber, but then I realized that with the size of the pump I plan on having, I can't afford to restrict any of the flow in either pipe. So it's a 50/50 split.

[gregzz4]

Sorry, I had a thought I didn't write :wink:
Slower flow through your 'fuge is better
I was thinking about you running both your drains to your skimmer section, then use a small pump to feed the 'fuge. This way you can regulate the flow if it's too much. It's possible the amount you'll get with your current design will be acceptable, but you might have to experiment a bit

[turbo]

ah that makes much more sense. lol!

i have also been experiencing some doubt that the flow rate is slow enough through the refuge. I guess I could direct both drains to the skimmer chamber and either use a small pump like you said, or possibly tee off one of the drains into the refuge.

i suppose it's best to use freshly skimmed water for the refuge, but i also want to use fewer pumps. i'd hate to see a siphon form from the refuge to the skimmer chamber, because if you combine that with back flow from the tank, they could add up to a flood. the refuge and pre-fuge chamber carry more volume than the skimmer and return pump chamber.

[gregzz4]

A Tee would be a better idea for cost savings. Only thing I'd suggest is you open the valve fully periodically to flush out whatever may be stuck or building up inside it

Using non-skimmed water is better for your 'fuge, so your Tee wins there too

[turbo]

Hey I just thought of something. What if the PVC drain that is destined for the refuge is piped into the cabinet through a hole that is lower than the top of the sump by 8" or so? It would have to climb uphill and then it could drain freely into the sump.

I suspect this would greatly reduce the flow rate of this pipe without restricting it mechanically???

I dunno am I missing something here? Part of the reason why I want to do this is because one of those holes that I already drilled (see pics) is now going to be lower than the top height of the sump tank, but I still want to use the hole.

[turbo]

orr it might just trap debris over time and become clogged ... better drill a new hole higher up.