Giving up on SPS!

[mrhasan]

Well I feel like giving up on SPS. They are just so variable :|

I have a blue tenius which bleached overnight (many of you know about that story) but now that I have it at the middle of my tank, it seems like its tissues are reconstructing and growing brown.

I acclimated the blue gomezi to my light (I even wonder whether I should have acclimated it in the first place) and put it high up in the tank since I heard they love LOOOOOOOOOOOTS of light. Guess what! It BLEACHED!!!!

On the same level, I have pink milli which is going great with awesome polyp extension and the color is good too. Alongside, I have a purple bonsai and tri color acro on the same level and they are browning out!!! Like how would I know which is strong and which is low light for them :O Its freaking irritating!

I got a monti cap almost at the bottom and its growing even faster than my softies! Got orange and yellow digitatas at the middle which are doing great too along with purple and green birdnests.

So in summary, I had acros and a milli in the same level, some of them browning out, one bleached and the milli doing great.

My water parameters are not my concern since I keep them at check but still here are the values:

SG: 35ppt
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm (or atleast undetectable by API)
Calcium: 440ppm
Magnesium: 1325 (I believe)
Phosphate: I believe its close to 0 (with seachem) but really, that test makes me feel like I am colorblind :| I don't have any algae growing anywhere other than coraline.

Any idea SPS gurus? :mrgreen:

I am really frustrated with this matter!

[Proteus]

And you alk is?

When I first started I sought out stuff that was easy to grow. Digi worked good for me. I didn't worry to much about color.

[Zoaelite]

You will continue to frustrate yourself keeping SPS in a sumpless nano packed with softies... Even some of the most experienced reefers out there (myself included) can't do it.

The suggestion of a 6 month established tank with a larger water volume is out there for a reason, simply put these are very finicky organisms.

Many of your posts seem to be oriented around having all the nice stuff that a larger tank offers, why not save up for something like a 90g so you can really enjoy all the facets of the hobby? Instead of buying SPS frags that will only die on you save the cash & put it towards such.

[mrhasan]

And you alk is?

When I first started I sought out stuff that was easy to grow. Digi worked good for me. I didn't worry to much about color.

Ops sorry, I missed that :P

Its starts at 10dkH and goes down to 9dKh before the water change every 2 weeks.

And the temperature stays at an average of 78F.

[wickedfrags]

in addition, what are you doing to maintain alkalinity on a daily basis, fluctuation can be a problem for SPS

SPS - stability promotes success

And you alk is?

When I first started I sought out stuff that was easy to grow. Digi worked good for me. I didn't worry to much about color.

[mrhasan]

You will continue to frustrate yourself keeping SPS in a sumpless nano packed with softies... Even some of the most experienced reefers out there (myself included) can't do it.

The suggestion of a 6 month established tank with a larger water volume is out there for a reason, simply put these are very finicky organisms.

Many of your posts seem to be oriented around having all the nice stuff that a larger tank offers, why not save up for something like a 90g so you can really enjoy all the facets of the hobby? Instead of buying SPS frags that will only die on you save the cash & put it towards such.

I am stuck with 20gallon for two particular reasons:
1. Living in a rented room (dorm-like)
2. Maintaining a big tank would be too much upkeep till I graduate and get a job :P

And I didn't really buy any of the acros, they were all free. I just bought the the milli and the montis which are actually doing great :P

I can see that you already know how impatient I am :redface:

So I guess I am not doing it wrong, they are just too finicky :razz:

[mrhasan]

in addition, what are you doing to maintain alkalinity on a daily basis, fluctuation can be a problem for SPS

SPS - stability promotes success

Haha, nice work with the abbreviation :P I would say

SPS = Seriously Painful Specimen (close enough :P)

I don't do anything, dKh seems to remain constant and drops by 1 (maybe there's some decimals too but API can't grab that) before biweekly WC.

[Proteus]

I have a 26 gallon tank with 35 sps

My trick. Is a sump is a must and no zero nada. Softies

[Zoaelite]

I am stuck with 20gallon for two particular reasons:
1. Living in a rented room (dorm-like)
2. Maintaining a big tank would be too much upkeep till I graduate and get a job :P

And I didn't really buy any of the acros, they were all free. I just bought the the milli and the montis which are actually doing great :P

I can see that you already know how impatient I am :redface:

So I guess I am not doing it wrong, they are just too finicky :razz:

Cant even bump that up to like a 40g with sump eh :wink:. I would argue maintaining a larger tank is easier than a nano because of small water volume fluctuations. Again the mixed reef is really your biggest contender here, in such a small water volume alopathy is happening out of the ying yang and the softies will win practically 100% of the time.

[Zoaelite]

I have a 26 gallon tank with 35 sps

My trick. Is a sump is a must and no zero nada. Softies

Beat me to it :razz:.

[mrhasan]

I have a 26 gallon tank with 35 sps

My trick. Is a sump is a must and no zero nada. Softies

What's nada?

I just run a AC110 refugium at the back to keep my nitrate undetectable. My space doesn't permit anything more :(

[Zoaelite]

What's nada?

I just run a AC110 refugium at the back to keep my nitrate undetectable. My space doesn't permit anything more :(

I think he means ZERO softies in the tank. Not talking about water parameters.

[Aquattro]

I can see that you already know how impatient I am :redface:



This alone will kill you before you even get started!

[mrhasan]

Cant even bump that up to like a 40g with sump eh :wink:. I would argue maintaining a larger tank is easier than a nano because of small water volume fluctuations. Again the mixed reef is really your biggest contender here, in such a small water volume alopathy is happening out of the ying yang and the softies will win practically 100% of the time.

Yap I do 100% agree that larger tanks are easier to maintain but likewise, space should permit too :P

The first month when I set up this tank, my landlord was asking me how much water do I use for the tank since the bill was high (luckily it was not my fault since they found out an old washing machine was the criminal). Plus I really don't have space in the room other than my reading table which I am using as the stand and left all the books and notes in university :P And to make things more spicy, the table doesn't have space for a sump underneath and I can't modify it since its landlord's table :P Sweet charm of rented dorm-like place :mrgreen:

[mrhasan]

I think he means ZERO softies in the tank. Not talking about water parameters.

Ah how can I say no to all those wonderful zoas!

[mrhasan]

This alone will kill you before you even get started!

Damn you caught me :redface:

[Tristan]

I disagree to the sps/zoa combo in tanks. Its just a fine balance is all.

I think your best bet is to just put more digitata and millepora in the tank.

[Zoaelite]

Ah how can I say no to all those wonderful zoas!

Zoas won't be the ones causing you problems, its the xenia, colt... larger slimier softies that release alopathic toxins.

[mrhasan]

Zoas won't be the ones causing you problems, its the xenia, colt... larger slimier softies that release alopathic toxins.

Leathers also excrete that right?

And what about GSP?

I never gave my eyes towards colt and kenya since they are like biowar machines as far as I heard.

[Proteus]

You could house zoas. But if you house to many softies then you need to run a reactor with "good" carbon. To absorb the chemicals that the softies put out. Even some lps like chalices can play chemical warfare.

I alway put it like this softies kill all. Lol and yes as Levi said nana means none

Find another table something you can put a small sump under. Get a return pump. Drill your tank. ( which u can do with all inhabitants still in tank)
Consider carbon dosing of some kind. Prodibio will cost you $100 bucks a year in your small tank. If you don't already.

[Proteus]

Leathers also excrete that right?

And what about GSP?

I never gave my eyes towards colt and kenya since they are like biowar machines as far as I heard.

And mushrooms. There terrible lol

[mrhasan]

You could house zoas. But if you house to many softies then you need to run a reactor with "good" carbon. To absorb the chemicals that the softies put out. Even some lps like chalices can play chemical warfare.

I alway put it like this softies kill all. Lol and yes as Levi said nana means none

Find another table something you can put a small sump under. Get a return pump. Drill your tank. ( which u can do with all inhabitants still in tank)
Consider carbon dosing of some kind. Prodibio will cost you $100 bucks a year in your small tank. If you don't already.

I have about 6" clearance down the table and that's it. No other table is there :(

I do run carbon and chemi pure in, (ahmm) HOB filter. It kinda works well since the water looses its odor within an hour or something after the tank gets disturbed in maintenance or WC.

Can you really drill tank without completely emptying it? :| Never knew that!

[mrhasan]

And mushrooms. There terrible lol

Ah damn. I give up on SPS totally then! I will just stick with montis and birdnest. Need to try how pocci works. Acros are so boring (ok don't flame me :razz:) :lol:

[Proteus]

Of coarse you can drill the tank. Just have level of water below where your going to drill

[Proteus]

I won't flame haha. I've seen great leather tanks. I just don't care for them.

[mrhasan]

Of coarse you can drill the tank. Just have level of water below where your going to drill

Yap but won't small debris get into the tank? I guess you can stop it by putting something just above the water surface to stop anything getting in the tank but still kinda looks like a risk :| Particularly with fishes that eats literally everything!

[Proteus]

Hold a cloth on inside to catch it yep

[mrhasan]

Hold a cloth on inside to catch it yep

Thanks, I will keep that in mind if I need to drill my tank :D

[Coleus]

welcome to the world of Sps :-) it is a pain in the @#$@#sss to grow them.

[mrhasan]

welcome to the world of Sps :-) it is a pain in the @#$@#sss to grow them.

I can't even keep their color; let alone be their growth :P

[Aquattro]

growing them is pretty easy. Getting the colors is the hard part :)

[ashr]

How old/type are your lights? Sorry if this has all ready been answered.

[kien]

SPS.. If you can't take the heat, get out if the kitchen :lol:

..or just enjoy your thriving collection of brownapora.

[ashr]

growing them is pretty easy. Getting the colors is the hard part :)

I agree with this. You really need to be on top of "everything"

[ScubaSteve]

SPS can be done in a 20 gallon. I did it for many years. It's just more painful and variable. I'd argue that you could do a sump. Just build one in under the stand. Before you state otherwise I'll retort with: Trust me, you can. Sumps really do make a difference, especially with a good skimmer. I use a skimmer rated for 100 gallons on my 50 gallon tank.

Leathers are probably the worst for allelopathic warfare. GSP is't know for it, but it can and will overgrow SPS if not kept in check. I'd ditch the leathers if you have any. Running carbon can help cut down on this type of warfare and it tends to work better... you know... with a sump :razz:

I'm a chemical engineer. I nerd out over parameters and stuff like that. I love knowing the science about everything going on in my tank. I've found that even when parameters are stable in a new tank, all but the most hardy SPS will struggle until the tank is more mature. It's not science, it's ****ing black magic! Drives me nuts! For all purposes, the SPS should be OK if your water is stable but that isn't always the case. Hence the 6 month rule of thumb.

[mrhasan]

growing them is pretty easy. Getting the colors is the hard part :)

Damn! Weird stuff -_-

[mrhasan]

How old/type are your lights? Sorry if this has all ready been answered.

Lighting might be an issue. I use 2 30" T5HO bulbs over the 12" deep tank. Lights were changed like 2 months ago.

[mrhasan]

SPS.. If you can't take the heat, get out if the kitchen :lol:

..or just enjoy your thriving collection of brownapora.

Hahaha :lol:

[mrhasan]

SPS can be done in a 20 gallon. I did it for many years. It's just more painful and variable. I'd argue that you could do a sump. Just build one in under the stand. Before you state otherwise I'll retort with: Trust me, you can. Sumps really do make a difference, especially with a good skimmer. I use a skimmer rated for 100 gallons on my 50 gallon tank.

Leathers are probably the worst for allelopathic warfare. GSP is't know for it, but it can and will overgrow SPS if not kept in check. I'd ditch the leathers if you have any. Running carbon can help cut down on this type of warfare and it tends to work better... you know... with a sump :razz:

I'm a chemical engineer. I nerd out over parameters and stuff like that. I love knowing the science about everything going on in my tank. I've found that even when parameters are stable in a new tank, all but the most hardy SPS will struggle until the tank is more mature. It's not science, it's ****ing black magic! Drives me nuts! For all purposes, the SPS should be OK if your water is stable but that isn't always the case. Hence the 6 month rule of thumb.

I might be able to chip in a 6" high long sump but skimmer is totally out of question :P And I hate HOB skimmers. Nothing beats the performance of in-sump and good HOBs costs fortune!

I don't have any sort of swing in my tank (white magic perhaps :razz:). I guess SPS are just not for me :P LPS FYI! :mrgreen:

[Proteus]

I def start at your lights.

[mrhasan]

I def start at your lights.

Yap. I might be getting something this christmas. No halide (I am afraid it might cause heat issue on such a shallow tank) but I am on for a quad t5ho fixture :D But I might reconsider it since I am giving up on SPS :neutral:

[daniella3d]

I have a 75 gallons full of SPS. My tric...no sump and lots of softies.

I have a 15 gallons full of SPS. I do have a sump but lots of softies still.

What's with the softies and SPS? I never had any problem mixing both.

High alkalinity with low nutrient and fluctuation in parameters are probable the problem here, not the softies.

I have a 26 gallon tank with 35 sps

My trick. Is a sump is a must and no zero nada. Softies

[daniella3d]

really?? wow..I have tons of them in my tank with my SPS.

Is there any scientific study about SPS not being compatible with xenia, keny tree, zoanthids, mushrooms etc?? I have all these with my tons of SPS and none seem to bother. I don't even use carbon.

And mushrooms. There terrible lol

[mrhasan]

I have a 75 gallons full of SPS. My tric...no sump and lots of softies.

I have a 15 gallons full of SPS. I do have a sump but lots of softies still.

What's with the softies and SPS? I never had any problem mixing both.

High alkalinity with low nutrient and fluctuation in parameters are probable the problem here, not the softies.

Isin't 9-10 dkH like sweet spot? None of the params fluctuate other than dKh falling from 10 to 9 in 2 weeks. Not sure about other traces like iodide and stuffs.

And I thought low nutrient is preferred by SPS :|

Its so confusing!!!! :twised:

[mrhasan]

really?? wow..I have tons of them in my tank with my SPS.

Is there any scientific study about SPS not being compatible with xenia, keny tree, zoanthids, mushrooms etc?? I have all these with my tons of SPS and none seem to bother. I don't even use carbon.

I am expecting Denny is start "carbon dosing" over here LOL

[daniella3d]

10 is too high if your level of nutrient is low. That will cause all sort of problem like RTN, STN etc..

Sweet spot is natural sea water, 7.5 to 8 is ideal.

Low nutrient is good for SPS but they do need food then. Especially if you have a weak light, no wonder they are dying in your tank.

with low nutrien you need a good light, good food on regular basis and around 8 kh, no higher.

People think that SPS only live from light alone but in nature there is tons of zooplankton. This is also why SPS grow much better and faster in a mature tank of at least a year old, because by that time zooplankton and all sort of larveas have started to colonize the aquarium.

I feed my SPS every other day with zooplankton food like Fauna marin, reefroid, coral frenzy and I feed Zeovit amino acid and coral vitalizer each day. This makes all the difference in growth and color.

Isin't 9-10 dkH like sweet spot? None of the params fluctuate other than dKh falling from 10 to 9 in 2 weeks. Not sure about other traces like iodide and stuffs.

And I thought low nutrient is preferred by SPS :|

Its so confusing!!!! :twised:

[mrhasan]

I read from a reliable source that on avg, dkH in NSW remains around 3.5meg/L (aprox. 10dKh) :neutral:

Alongside, I do feed coral snow about twice a week.

Maybe the light and the nutrient is the issue. Whatever that is, SPS are just not worth it to me :razz:

10 is too high if your level of nutrient is low. That will cause all sort of problem like RTN, STN etc..

Sweet spot is natural sea water, 7.5 to 8 is ideal.

Low nutrient is good for SPS but they do need food then. Especially if you have a weak light, no wonder they are dying in your tank.

with low nutrien you need a good light, good food on regular basis and around 8 kh, no higher.

People think that SPS only live from light alone but in nature there is tons of zooplankton. This is also why SPS grow much better and faster in a mature tank of at least a year old, because by that time zooplankton and all sort of larveas have started to colonize the aquarium.

I feed my SPS every other day with zooplankton food like Fauna marin, reefroid, coral frenzy and I feed Zeovit amino acid and coral vitalizer each day. This makes all the difference in growth and color.

[dreef]

It will be very hard with a small mixed tank.My tank is at least 90% acropora with softies and leathers but it's a 100 gallons,no carbon.Don't feed them anything but tons of light.Yeah..their boring and brown..i really hate this ugly one.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/stock_1/DSCF1132.jpg

[mrhasan]

It will be very hard with a small mixed tank.My tank is at least 90% acropora with softies and leathers but it's a 100 gallons,no carbon.Don't feed them anything but tons of light.Yeah..their boring and brown..i really hate this ugly one.



That's a nice colony :D

Well its boring to me since I can't keep it :P

[Proteus]

really?? wow..I have tons of them in my tank with my SPS.

Is there any scientific study about SPS not being compatible with xenia, keny tree, zoanthids, mushrooms etc?? I have all these with my tons of SPS and none seem to bother. I don't even use carbon.

Not terrible for reef. Just terrible in my eyes lol

[Aquattro]

I read from a reliable source that on avg, dkH in NSW remains around 3.5meg/L (aprox. 10dKh) :neutral:



10 is fine, mine sits there often and I don't have any problems. I've run it regularly as high as 14. Again, no issues.

[daniella3d]

Even with low nutrient system?

10 is fine, mine sits there often and I don't have any problems. I've run it regularly as high as 14. Again, no issues.

[Aquattro]

Even with low nutrient system?

Yes. I lost track for a few months and tested it at 12. Someone told me zeo systems do best at 7, but that's too low for my liking. 10 is low compared to what I've run in the past. I find colors are crisper at higher alk..

[Delphinus]

I have to admit, I run my tank at Alk 7 because the zeo guide says to run it there (I run a zeo tank as well) and my SPS growth is still nowhere near as good as it was when I ran a tank with Alk 10. I'm very tempted to try running it back at 10.

[kien]

I have to admit, I run my tank at Alk 7 because the zeo guide says to run it there (I run a zeo tank as well) and my SPS growth is still nowhere near as good as it was when I ran a tank with Alk 10. I'm very tempted to try running it back at 10.

I did notice that too. When I wasn't dosing my alk would sit near 7 and growth was kinda slow. Then I started dosing and held alk at 9/10ish and growth was insane. Although I personally prefer to keep my alk at around 8/9. To me that's kinda the middle of the road.

[lastlight]

I targeted 8 as well. my theory was that middle of the road is best since it would take a larger overdose to reach levels where you're burning tips etc.

[mrhasan]

So my alk is not an issue for my tank since it remains between 9 and 10. :mrgreen:

[daniella3d]

although a lot of people have RTN and STN when keeping their alkalinity at 10. Zeovit recommand this for a good reason.

But hey, it's your tank and your corals :)

[reefermadness]

I targeted 8 as well. my theory was that middle of the road is best since it would take a larger overdose to reach levels where you're burning tips etc.
That's my logic too.

[windcoast reefs]

Kept mind at 10-11 for the past year, only had one coral rtn, then again I don't use zeo. Can't really see how 10 is a problem since not that long ago allot of people kept it close to 14.

[daniella3d]

did these people keeping their tank at 14 kh had a lot of SPS and kept them healthy?

Kept mind at 10-11 for the past year, only had one coral rtn, then again I don't use zeo. Can't really see how 10 is a problem since not that long ago allot of people kept it close to 14.

[windcoast reefs]

did these people keeping their tank at 14 kh had a lot of SPS and kept them healthy?

Yeah most of them did, very fast growing, mind you they were also using 10000k halides, so everything was kinda dull.

[mrhasan]

did these people keeping their tank at 14 kh had a lot of SPS and kept them healthy?

Atleast Brad do :)

[Aquattro]

did these people keeping their tank at 14 kh had a lot of SPS and kept them healthy?

Absolutely. It was the norm, 12 - 14dKh, at 9 or 10 we would panick :). Full SPS tanks that ran for years with no unexplained losses.
My tank now is around 10 or 11, I'm not losing any corals..

[Aquattro]

As an example, check my pic in this thread

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=37397

That tank ran 12 - 14 for years, no issues and the corals did ok growing.

[daniella3d]

Then if corals grow better and healthier at kh 12, why don't you all maintain your KH at 12 then? 14 is even better :)

[Aquattro]

Then if corals grow better and healthier at kh 12, why don't you all maintain your KH at 12 then? 14 is even better :)

Mine now sits around 10 or 11 on it's own, and I am no longer inclined to fight with it. My corals grow fine now with me doing nothing, so why mess with it?

I'm not sure why you're so opposed to it. If your alk is 7 and it works for you, great. If your alk is 1 and it works for you, still great. :)

[lastlight]

10 - 11 dKh only works on tanks 6 feet or longer I thought?

[Aquattro]

10 - 11 dKh only works on tanks 6 feet or longer I thought?

Well, ya, mine is 6 foot.

[kien]

10 - 11 dKh only works on tanks 6 feet or longer I thought?

Wait, I thought this was only true if you were running Radions?

[mrhasan]

Wait, I thought this was only true if you were running Radions?

This makes me afraid to check the dkh of the oceans :razz:

[reefwars]

i call carbon!!:mrgreen:

[mrhasan]

i call carbon!!:mrgreen:

See carbon is a very integral part of everything!

1.Back home, people who cannot afford toothpaste used carbon to clean their teeth and it ACTUALLY makes teeth shiny. :razz:
2. Nothing beats the taste of bbq done done with charcoal cooker
3. We get electricity from coal
5. Activated carbon sounds SO COOOOL :mrgreen:

(Ops, looks like carbon washed away number 4 :P)


I guess carbon do like making stuffs shine and taste good (yah I did taste tank water some times to see whether its TOO SALTY) :mrgreen:

[daniella3d]

I am not opposed to keeping high alkalinity. If my tank was naturally on the high side I would not care if I did not have any RTN.

I have to dose to keep mine even at 7.5, so I try to keep it at 8. It's not has hard to keep the alkalinity stable at 8 than it is at 10 or 12.

I was always told by the pros around here to keep it lower and no need to keep it high as it is not natural and can cause more problem than good.

I also know a few people having problem with RTN when their alkalinity peak too high. Strange coincidence maybe.

More and more people keep their SPS tank at low nutrient level and high alkalinity and run into trouble. Zeovit recommand natural sea water level...their must be a good reason.

Mine now sits around 10 or 11 on it's own, and I am no longer inclined to fight with it. My corals grow fine now with me doing nothing, so why mess with it?

I'm not sure why you're so opposed to it. If your alk is 7 and it works for you, great. If your alk is 1 and it works for you, still great. :)