Serious dangers of salt water tanks and any tank

[isaac1]

Hey I've been on this site for a while and in the hobby for about six years nows I've recently tore apart my 80 due to seal problems and started up my old 35 with what I had left over, up until last night I've never had a problem I noticed my skimmer wasn't working right ( cheap boyyo hang on) so I stuck my hand in water to plug the pump to check pressure, the minute I put my other hand on top of my tank bam shocked, it scared the crap out of me so I called around and I guess it happens a lot but they sell under water grounding plugs so just throwing it out there salt water plus voltage can equal death dosnt take much to kill some one specially In water so any and all vetrans plz comment your feed back and solutions, and if there's a fourm already done direct me to it plz!!!! Thanks

Isaac

[Aquattro]

There are several posts over the years about the dangers of gear and critters in salt tanks. This is due mainly to faulty equipment, although sometimes it's hard to know it's faulty. I got an old Hagen 402 from somewhere, plugged it in and it spun, so I added it to a mixing tank. Plugged it in. Put hand in water and jumped about 5 feet up :) Cracked wire on the cord. Always check new stuff, and routinely check current gear. Keep it clean, remove salt build up, and buy life insurance :)

[isaac1]

I admire your bravery put could you be more specific on keep up with maintence for instance! I'm not going to go by a fluke meter to check and make sure my equipment is good because there's no real way to check internal seals on most products? Or is there I'm just putting this out there because most lfs are quick to sell nobody wants to say ya your better off getting hit with 240 or 600 then 120 because of its affect on ur heart

[intarsiabox]

I admire your bravery put could you be more specific on keep up with maintence for instance! I'm not going to go by a fluke meter to check and make sure my equipment is good because there's no real way to check internal seals on most products? Or is there I'm just putting this out there because most lfs are quick to sell nobody wants to say ya your better off getting hit with 240 or 600 then 120 because of its affect on ur heart

Check cord conditions, use a grounding probe, clean out pumps and powerheads and if you really want, fluke (among others) sells a pen for about $10 that will tell you if AC current is present but doesn't say how much.

[isaac1]

But how often do you realy think its the plug? Is your system gfi on wall or internal on your box? If there's leakage into your tank with moisture and salt build up how do you know if its not traveling threw your stand? The I formation within two comments is excellent but there's still more? Isn't there

[Dearth]

I spent 12 yrs as a fresh water guy and one thing I did every few weeks was to check any wire that went into the tank this stemmed from an incident I had a fully submersible heater and I had the protective covering over the wire crack after about 2 yrs into its use and when I stuck my hand into the water I had a communion with the big guy upstairs.

Ever since then I check all wires and equipment regularly. GFIs and power bars are good investments however a GFI will only help if it detects current coming from one item so plugging a GFI into a power bar does you no good you have to use a GFI for each piece of equipment you plug in however that being said I have seen GFI power bars but know little about them aside from that they are flipping expensive

[reefwars]

electricty and water dont mix...i always assumed that was common sense lol :twised:

[Zoaelite]

electricty and water dont mix...i always assumed that was common sense lol :twised:

So I should stop blow drying my hair in the shower?

[isaac1]

Not at all take an internal seal out of one of ur pumps or if u have t5ho have one off set so its not fully on the pronge and hang out with ur feet in two buckets of salt water

[1eyedjyde]

I have had my gfci outlet trip when a powerhead in my sump cracked its case. I have two power bars plugged into two different gfci outlets just in case this happens only half my equipment gets shut off. I do agree you should check all equipment on a regular basis. I only have my lights on non gfci outlets as the electronic ballast for the mh trips every time.

[QUOTE=Dearth;763880Ever since then I check all wires and equipment regularly. GFIs and power bars are good investments however a GFI will only help if it detects current coming from one item so plugging a GFI into a power bar does you no good you have to use a GFI for each piece of equipment you plug in however that being said I have seen GFI power bars but know little about them aside from that they are flipping expensive[/QUOTE]

[burgerchow]

Ok, I'm no electronics guy, but if there was a short in the tank and the water is "live"' wouldn't the fish be dead first, before you get shocked?

[Aquattro]

Ok, I'm no electronics guy, but if there was a short in the tank and the water is "live"' wouldn't the fish be dead first, before you get shocked?

I don't know squat about it either, but I do know the fish just swam around laughing at me every time I've zapped myself :)

[outacontrol]

Or is there I'm just putting this out there because most lfs are quick to sell nobody wants to say ya your better off getting hit with 240 or 600 then 120 because of its affect on ur heart

What are you trying to say here?

Just to be clear all electricity affects the human body and the heart and can kill you.

Please use ground fault circuit interrupters on your aquariums!

[outacontrol]

Ok, I'm no electronics guy, but if there was a short in the tank and the water is "live"' wouldn't the fish be dead first, before you get shocked?

No it does not kill the fish unless they reach out and touch the ground.

[1eyedjyde]

I'm not 100% but I think it's because the fish are not grounded however they are irritated by excess current in the tank.

[outacontrol]

Ever since then I check all wires and equipment regularly. GFIs and power bars are good investments however a GFI will only help if it detects current coming from one item so plugging a GFI into a power bar does you no good you have to use a GFI for each piece of equipment you plug in however that being said I have seen GFI power bars but know little about them aside from that they are flipping expensive

Sorry man this is simply not true, one Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) can detect faults in several things. You do not require a GFCI for each device.

[outacontrol]

I'm not 100% but I think it's because the fish are not grounded however they are irritated by excess current in the tank.

There is no current in the tank until the human does something stupid, like putting his hand in the tank or any other "grounded" device such as a ground probe!

[1eyedjyde]

The current in the tank comes from a faulty device such as a shorted powerhead it grounds on itself until the stupid human stick his hand in the tank to grab the powerhead without unplugging it first.

There is no current in the tank until the human does something stupid, like putting his hand in the tank or any other "grounded" device such as a ground probe!

[outacontrol]

The current in the tank comes from a faulty device such as a shorted powerhead it grounds on itself until the stupid human stick his hand in the tank to grab the powerhead without unplugging it first.

Ok where to start...... If the power head was truely shorted, the current would have exceeded the rating of the over current device, usually being the circuit breaker, therefore the breaker would trip and there could be no current.
Current can not flow or exist unless it has a path to flow on, therefore current cannot be waiting in the tank. Current is the result of voltage on electric circuit.

Please refrain from giving advise to others on a public forum on topics that you have limited understanding and knowledge on.

[kien]

:pop2:

[reefermadness]

I was about to start correcting people but outtacontrol is doing a good job.

Just recently I had a MJ powerhead short.....the cord had cracked under the water (saltwater hardens the soft insulation of cords and the vibration of the powerhead can cause cracks). When I stuck my hand in the tank I got a nice zap but the gfi tripped......safety device indeed. The reason it did not trip till I stuck my hand in is I dont have a grounding probe so there was no good path to ground for the current to flow.

[molotov]

Sorry man this is simply not true, one Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) can detect faults in several things. You do not require a GFCI for each device.

So if I have my powerbars plugged into a CGFI outlet, each device plugged into the powerbar is protected? I often wondered that. A lot of us use controllers with powerbars. If the powerbar wasn't protected by the GFCI then the GFCI would be useless. So I understand this is not the case. Thanks for the clarification.

[reefermadness]

So if I have my powerbars plugged into a CGFI outlet, each device plugged into the powerbar is protected? I often wondered that. A lot of us use controllers with powerbars. Thanks for the clarification.A powerbar plugged into a GFI will protect all the devices down stream.....so yes.

If the powerbar wasn't protected by the GFCI then the GFCI would be useless. So I understand this is not the case. Not sure what you mean here..

[outacontrol]

I was about to start correcting people but outtacontrol is doing a good job.
.

Thank you very much, its nice to hear that it is appreciated!

If the powerbar wasn't protected by the GFCI then the GFCI would be useless. So I understand this is not the case. Thanks for the clarification.

I believe molotov is talking about an incorrect statement in an earlier post that you need a GFCI for each device.

[Dearth]

That was me with the incorrect statement about GFIs and thank you for correcting me on it because when I got into aquariums 18 yrs ago the GFIs I had would do nothing with power bars and ended up buying 9 GFIs for the 3 tanks I ran.

How things change over the years

[isaac1]

Voltage and current can leak threw the tank without you putting ur hand in as for fish well think of a bird on a line my hand was fully submerged and nothing until I put my hand on the tank witch then created a circuit as treated me as ground

[isaac1]

Oops my bad didn't read that last one you put there mr out of controll

[outacontrol]

Voltage and current can leak threw the tank without you putting ur hand in as for fish well think of a bird on a line my hand was fully submerged and nothing until I put my hand on the tank witch then created a circuit as treated me as ground

Lol I find your persistence almost as amusing as your lack of knowledge with respect to basic electricity! Poor old George Simon Ohm is rolling is rolling over in his grave as you are trying to prove him and his basic electrical law wrong.

[isaac1]

Sorry sir I did not realize myself and others, were in the presence of a master electrician and electrical engineer yes I do have a lack of understanding but instead of being a troll use ur super brain and write a post on what people can do to protect them selfs, equipment they can use ext this post was not intended to mock or become ****ing contest with any but rather just another tool any one look at for reference on proper equipment and installation ect.

[mike31154]

As long as we run our systems with the electrical gizmos required to keep them running, there will be a risk of shock. The best we can do is minimize that risk by using GFI devices, keeping electrical cords out of the water and generally being aware/cognizant of the danger when volts & amps are associated with salt water.

I've seen folks with power bars & non moisture proof lamps mounted way too close above their sumps. I also still see people totally submerging heaters in the water, cord & all. I know enough about the hazards of water/electricity not to take a manufacturer's word that a heater is fully submersible. These things are mass produced and all that stands between you & death is an epoxy or rubber seal that will deteriorate with age, as will the cord as already mentioned. Just because they are UL listed or CSA approved doesn't mean there's an official at every plant watching how these things run off the line. Even if there was, he/she is not going to get out a megger & measure the the resistance of each one between the insulated parts of the heater & the electrical contacts. Meat inspectors can't possibly check every carcass in every slaughter house either. If you value your safety & those venturing near your tank, keep the control head & electrical cord of your heater above the water level.

Common sense! If you value your safety, have drip loops in all your cords, keep power bars & open electrical receptacles away from salt water or humid environments! They will corrode/deteriorate over time. Don't be grabbing your light fixture at the same time you stick your hand in the water.

Some basics to minimize risk of electrocution:

The fewer cords anywhere near your tank, the better. One reason I like VorTech pumps is the cord is outside the tank & they run on low voltage direct current as opposed to household alternating current. I'm more than willing to put up with the extra sound the dry side makes in exchange for the added safety factor.

Use an external return pump as opposed to an internal one. One more cord & motor not exposed to water 24/7.

Use GFI devices, as if that hasn't been hammered into this thread already. Jury is out on ground probes. Personally I think they're more of a hazard than anything. If you do use a ground probe you really need to make sure every one of the devices associated with your tank is GFI protected.

Go LED if you can. Low voltage lighting is much safer around the water than the relatively high voltages associated with Halide & Fluorescent lighting.

Only items in my water with a cord attached anymore are heaters & I'm looking for a way to heat the water by other means, perhaps an under tank heating mat, like in floor heating or something. A little extreme maybe, but an idea nevertheless. Other item is a small Aquaclear powerhead feeding my skimmer, but I make sure the cord is above the water surface. In the end, it doesn't matter whether the powerhead or heater is small or large with respect to wattage, bottom line is, they are fed by a 120 volt AC 15 amp circuit breaker & if something goes wrong, that's the potential shock hazard.

[Aquattro]

Mike, based on all your info, I'm as good as dead :)

[kien]

Seriously guys, this thread is really shocking!

[mike31154]

Mike, based on all your info, I'm as good as dead :)

Well, I got carried away again a bit I reckon. Watched the thread develop & was eating popcorn for a while, but then couldn't resist the long winded saga.

In the end, it's a crap shoot. Some of us are destined to become statistics, most of us will muddle thru with some good fortune.

Edit: You're now no longer a member of the Losers Without LEDs club, so that's one step in the safe direction (according to Mike), even if it's not working for a coral or two....

[lockrookie]

Seriously guys, this thread is really shocking!

I'm kinda shocked too. Although I enjoy a few volts from time to time reminds me I'm alive and clears the arteries. And believe me I've been jolted good at times. It's amazing how much juice runs through a phone line when someone calls you and your residing your home phone system. But 110 always makes me smile. Although I do tend to stay away from the 220 plugs lol.

But I agree one must be cautious with power not just shocking yourself but causing a fire. This is what I fear the most.


Sent from my porcelain aquarium

[jorjef]

All things considered the only TRUE way to be safe around our tanks is........Rubber boots!!! that's right folks by wearing rubber boots while working in and around our tanks we are completely safe...To test this theory I smashed a heater while it was still in the water!! After I awoke from my sudden nap I was no worse for wear...I can't imagine what would have happened if I wasn't wearing them..

p.s. I find that with the boot sides rolled down old school that it provides an extra line of defense as the current rolls off the rolled edges rather than down into the boot. Can't ever be too safe. How DO those birds sit on the line with no birdie rubber boots?

[Aquattro]

How DO those birds sit on the line with no birdie rubber boots?

I've seen a few of them calculate wrong and POOF!!!

[Zoaelite]

Well, I got carried away again a bit I reckon. Watched the thread develop & was eating popcorn for a while, but then couldn't resist the long winded saga.

In the end, it's a crap shoot. Some of us are destined to become statistics, most of us will muddle thru with some good fortune.

Edit: You're now no longer a member of the Losers Without LEDs club, so that's one step in the safe direction (according to Mike), even if it's not working for a coral or two....

I would consider it a good carried away, never hurts to remind people of the dangers of this hobby.

[isaac1]

Thank you

[reefermadness]

And this is what makes canreef so cool......no body takes themselves too seriously, even when the subject is, well, serious. hahaha :)

[MitchM]

.....
Only items in my water with a cord attached anymore are heaters & I'm looking for a way to heat the water by other means, perhaps an under tank heating mat, like in floor heating or something. A little extreme maybe, but an idea nevertheless. Other item is a small Aquaclear powerhead feeding my skimmer, but I make sure the cord is above the water surface. In the end, it doesn't matter whether the powerhead or heater is small or large with respect to wattage, bottom line is, they are fed by a 120 volt AC 15 amp circuit breaker & if something goes wrong, that's the potential shock hazard.


Mike, depending on how easy access you have to your plumbing and if you have a controller on your aquarium, you could run a small coil of PEX into your sump and plumb in a home hot water line using a recirc pump.
A guy over on RC did this successfully.

[StirCrazy]

Mike, based on all your info, I'm as good as dead :)

with your wiring skills, you should have been dead years ago :mrgreen:

Steve

[Seriak]

You could also use an inline heater.

[Canuckgod420]

Ok, I'm no electronics guy, but if there was a short in the tank and the water is "live"' wouldn't the fish be dead first, before you get shocked?


That clearly wouldnt happen, the fish arent grounded. Its like birds landing on power wires, no death, but if they where to contact 2 wires at the same time....poof, cooked bird.

[mike31154]

Mike, depending on how easy access you have to your plumbing and if you have a controller on your aquarium, you could run a small coil of PEX into your sump and plumb in a home hot water line using a recirc pump.
A guy over on RC did this successfully.

Yeah, thanks for that info. I actually read that thread the other day. There've been similar projects over the years, even some where people did the opposite, trying to cool their tanks with coils of piping submerged in the sump, then run underground aka geothermal. Seems like you need to be careful with that kind of set up lest you cook your system by not siziing the thermal mass properly. Can get complicated.

If I ever get my basement sump thing started I may consider something like that. A couple of years ago I tiled the floor at my living room bay window & put electrical heating under the tile. I've been considering putting a run of that under the next project. That is, build a stand, put electrical heating on the surface where the tank will sit, then some nice granite tile. Set the tank on that (and/or sump) & voila, under tank heating. Just not sure if the weight of the tank would be an issue in possibly crushing the wiring below eventually.

But again, I digress. Stay safe with the 'lectrics. Ditch those electric float switches that run your ATO & go with gravity feed & mechanical float valve.

[Aquattro]

with your wiring skills, you should have been dead years ago :mrgreen:

Steve

Zactly! That's why I don't take these threads very seriously. I zap myself once a month, minimum. My family knows not to be within 3 feet of me when I have any type of wiring in my hand lol
I did get careless and start a fire, but that was contained and the sloppiness corrected. Sort of.

[Zoaelite]

Might not be a bad idea with a smaller tank Mike, the only problems I could think of are; The system breaks, you then have to move the tank to repair it OR the heater develops a hot spot, which in turn creates a temperature differential in your glass possibly shattering it.

Having granite tile under the tank would help prevent the second one by heat distribution.

You also then lack the monitoring capacity of a heater, you do get those nasty wires out of your tank though!

[Doug]

Ditch those electric float switches that run your ATO & go with gravity feed & mechanical float valve.

Would not most of those be 12v such as the Osmolator.

Totally agree in keeping the heater head above water. Something I have done for many years. Only use Ebo and my policy has been to replace them after a couple years with a new one.

[mike31154]

Would not most of those be 12v such as the Osmolator.

Yes, you are correct. I'm getting a bit anal. Low voltage is fine, but I've seen some DIYs where folks are wiring electric float switches with 120 VAC running thru them.

[Doug]

Oh ya. I have seen some duzzies over time. And built by lfs to boot. I know this as I owned one many years ago. :lol: