Starting a reef from dryrock.

[Karsten]

Hello I am going to start a new project. I have learned the hard way about reef pests. So For my new project I would like to start compleatly from dry rock.

My question is how do I build up bacteria with a clean start?
What should I add? If I use filter media from my existing tank with pests get into my new tank?

Once my new tank is cycled I plan on only adding livestock that has went through a quarantine tank.

Does anyone have experiance doing this?

[Salt2Death]

I started mine Dry Rock less than 2 months ago-
I picked up Prodibio from RedCoral and my tank is fully cycled and by adding chetto with tons of life on it to the sump less than 2 months now my tank is full of cocopods and life everywhere!
No Pests!
Corals have never looked better, coralline algae already popping up all over. No nasty algae blooms!!!http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/25/epe9a7yz.jpg
Best stuff I have ever used!


Sent Via The Pirate Ship...

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

starting a reef with pest free is doable but that will need your full power over purchasing new live stock..
1st dry rock like http://www.caco3reef (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=71902&highlight=caco3reef) or there are few online selling dry rock,then you need to seed it and again lots of product out there for seeding,the 2 methods I like and used in my system is seeding with dead raw washed fresh shrimp dropped into the system until bacteria start to form..2nd (my choice) finding someone with good quality live rock to buy or trade to have the full spectrum of good bacteria.
Removing pests from your existing reef by filters is really not that good..depending on what you mean by pests in your present system,if you are talking about pests residing in your live rock then cooking method will do best.if you have diseased fish then quarantine them and medicate accordingly.
I am sure more folks will chime in with other methods as these are the ones come to mind at the moment.:biggrin:

[jostafew]

I started my reef with about 95% dry rock (BRS Reef Save Rock to be exact) and sand, then seeded with about 3lbs of choice live rock from the LFS. After adding the little bit of LR I cycled by dropping some cooked shrimp in there to decompose and feed the bacteria populations. Fish food will work too, just anything to decompose and feed the bacteria. Once I was confident the cycle was complete I added a fish and a cleaner shrimp and slowly built of the bioload over the many months to come.

[Enigma]

What pests are you specifically worried about transferring over in the filter media?

I only use dry rock now. I use a variety of bacterial products: Microbacter7 and Stability are the two I have on hand right now.

[Calgarynewtankguy]

If you are starting a large tank with primarily dry rock. How would that affect a deep live sand bed. Do you not need the LR to seed the deep sand bed?

[Salt2Death]

It's a common misconception that you need live rock to "seed" sand beds or other dry rock.
I never used anything but old LR I "cooked" witch is much simpler than the big 4-6 week soaking and sun backing event always listed. (Boil water and soak rock, scrub off with soft non metallic cleaning brush, rinse often and repeat until bone white. Then 24-48 hours soaking in water/ high vinegar concentration with power head and heater on high. Make sure you reposition the rock every so often. After the vinegar bath rinse the rock repeatedly. Let dry, then use or glue as you please.
Bam....
After you have you sand and rock setup in the tank, water running and all leak checks done. Now drain your water, mix up your salt water and let the system run until its not cloudy and add the nitrifying bacteria!!! To fully seed the system like I said add Cheeto Algae to the sump and your system will seed and flourish as pest free as posable!

(Test water often still, also water changes often as system is new)

!!!!!!PROTIBIO!!!!!!!






Sent Via The Pirate Ship...

[Reef Supplies]

We're seeing more and more people starting systems with dry rock, we CANT keep it in stock. Pest free and cheaper. You must however have patience and let the cycle take it's course.

Ray

[reefwars]

maybe in the first 6 mths or so youll go pest free but it will get through over time, in order to stay pest free you have to be willing to qt ANYTHING that hits your tank for minimum weeks on end and then to not buy anything while you qt each and every individual thing.......theres very very few people who are willing to do that.


qt is for making sure the coral is healthy and to see if it has immediate health problems or pests.......if you want to guarantee you have no pests come in you would have to qt the first piece of livestock.....then weeeks later add 1 more thing and qt that.....then weeks later you wouldhave to add 1 more thng to your qt tank.....everytime you add something you put something in your display.

the only other way is too add it all at once into your qt tank and hope you get all the possible pests.


if your not doing this then there is a chance of pests getting through for sure.


fwiw dips dont kill half of what we think it does , so unless you know how to kill it all, its going to be tough.


either way i hope you do get to be pest free, i will be the first you to commend all the hard work for sure:)

cheers

[reefwars]

We're seeing more and more people starting systems with dry rock, we CANT keep it in stock. Pest free and cheaper. You must however have patience and let the cycle take it's course.

Ray



pest free .....maybe at first.....yes


cheaper....i dont think so i see liverock for $2-$3 and even less all the time, last time i checked at the store dryrock was more expensive than that, maybe in quebec but out here in calgary liverock is as cheap as dry rock......so i dont see the plus side???

[FitoPharmer]

maybe in the first 6 months or so youll go pest free but it will get through over time, in order to stay pest free you have to be willing to qt ANYTHING that hits your tank for minimum weeks on end and/or then to not buy anything while you qt each and every individual thing.......theres very very few people who are willing to do that.

So true. If you don't QT your corals the only benefits to dry rock that I see are the price and ease of styling. And even if you do QT for months there is zero guarantee it worked like you hoped since some problems are very hard to spot and can take a long time to develop to noticeable or plague proportions. Also, what are the reef pests you are trying to prevent? GBA, GHA, Caulerpa, aiptasia, mini stars, hydoids, bristol worms, flatworms, and brittle stars. These pests would require at least a month in QT with very careful attention. Some would require 3 or more months to be sure.

[reefwars]

So true. If you don't QT your corals the only benefits to dry rock that I see are the price and ease of styling. And even if you do QT for months there is zero guarantee it worked like you hoped since some problems are very hard to spot and can take a long time to develop to noticeable or plague proportions. Also, what are the reef pests you are trying to prevent? GBA, GHA, Caulerpa, aiptasia, mini stars, hydoids, bristol worms, flatworms, and brittle stars. These pests would require at least a month in QT with very careful attention. Some would require 3 or more months to be sure.



exactly , some stuff is going to be easy to keep out some stuff is going to be next to impossible.

less chance of pests from the startup...most definately

pest free forever...that depends on you and has nothing to do with your liverock:)

[Reef Supplies]

pest free .....maybe at first.....yes


cheaper....i dont think so i see liverock for $2-$3 and even less all the time, last time i checked at the store dryrock was more expensive than that, maybe in quebec but out here in calgary liverock is as cheap as dry rock......so i dont see the plus side???

You might find some LR on sale for $5 here but most of the time it's right around $8 for quality rock. So, yeah dry rock is deff. cheaper here.

[Enigma]

exactly , some stuff is going to be easy to keep out some stuff is going to be next to impossible.

less chance of pests from the startup...most definately

pest free forever...that depends on you and has nothing to do with your liverock:)

Every pest in my 40 has come in on corals. My "pest free" 40 didn't even last a month.

I'm going to try to hit six weeks pest free with my NC24. :)

[reefwars]

You might find some LR on sale for $5 here but most of the time it's right around $8 for quality rock. So, yeah dry rock is deff. cheaper here.


thats like home too liverock is 15.99/lb .....if your lucky you can get someone to sell out at 6-8$ but thats a steal of a deal then. so it does depend on what the market is like.

the op is from calgary though so price wont be much of a comparrison.

[JDigital]

pest free .....maybe at first.....yes


cheaper....i dont think so i see liverock for $2-$3 and even less all the time, last time i checked at the store dryrock was more expensive than that, maybe in quebec but out here in calgary liverock is as cheap as dry rock......so i dont see the plus side???

I have NEVER seen a store in Calgary sell Live Rock for $2-3/lbs. Which is about what I paid for my Dry Rock. (from a shop)

"Used" LR like the stuff you posted for sale, sure, you can find for cheap, but buyer also runs the risk of pests. Regardless of how pest free someone THINKS their LR is, there could always be something in it that the seller doesn't know about.

[Enigma]

You might find some LR on sale for $5 here but most of the time it's right around $8 for quality rock. So, yeah dry rock is deff. cheaper here.

Denny's live rock prices are what other hobbyists are selling live rock at, for the most part: not retail pricing.

The retail pricing for dry rock is considerably cheaper: around $3/pound versus $10/pound.

[reefwars]

Every pest in my 40 has come in on corals. My "pest free" 40 didn't even last a month.

I'm going to try to hit six weeks pest free with my NC24. :)


its next to impossible to keep "all" pests out , the hiding places in liverock are too many so if say someone buys a coral it needs to be removed from it base, and then qt.

depending on what you want or dont want will depend on how long you qt.


for examle brittle stars are easy to kill, nudis,flatworms and red bugs for exaample not so much.


and the worse thing is even if you do go months or even a year pest free......once that one gets through its all a lost cause then anyways, alot of pests do not need a mate to reproduce so one is often enough to get the pop going:(

your qt tank would need more work then your display tank will , i think its a better practise to familiarize yourself with pests of all kinds and learn how to deal with them and what methods are best for you.



pests are bed yes but its not the end of the world, the trick is to jump on something the minute its noticed and to approach it the right way....most times its us who wins in the end.

[reefwars]

Denny's live rock prices are what other hobbyists are selling live rock at, for the most part: not retail pricing.

The retail pricing for dry rock is considerably cheaper: around $3/pound versus $10/pound.


yes and thats true too , though not to say that if the store down the street has his liverock advertised as $5 hes not gonna sell it for $3....i was at a store the other day(a big box store) and i didnt think they haggled over prices but apparently they do as they agreed on $4/lb for 30lbs of liverock.....im pretty sure the price on the sticker was $7.99/lb

[Enigma]

yes and thats true too , though not to say that if the store down the street has his liverock advertised as $5 hes not gonna sell it for $3....i was at a store the other day(a big box store) and i didnt think they haggled over prices but apparently they do as they agreed on $4/lb for 30lbs of liverock.....im pretty sure the price on the sticker was $7.99/lb

Sweet deal!

I still wouldn't buy it. :lol: I don't think either the "dry rock" or the "live rock" crowds are really swayed much be cost. I think there are other factors that each team is more hung up on.

[reefwars]

right now i am dealing with a bad pest......hydroids



the only cures that are available i can not use for livestock reasons.

so im now daily manually removing them and hoping the dozen peps i put in there help with the battle.

i dont think for a second that my tank is messed up or a lost cause if anything i actually learned a lot about this pest over the last 2 weeks, and while at first there didnt seem to be much hope i am seeing a difference and in time i got it for sure.


i bought a friends system the other night it came with 14 fish some of them very large around 12" or more , i was able to drop all the fish into my 50g fragtank and not even a glitch to be noticed with the system or water quality.....to me there is no substitute for quality mature liverock.

the fish have all found new homes.

[reefwars]

I have NEVER seen a store in Calgary sell Live Rock for $2-3/lbs. Which is about what I paid for my Dry Rock. (from a shop)

"Used" LR like the stuff you posted for sale, sure, you can find for cheap, but buyer also runs the risk of pests. Regardless of how pest free someone THINKS their LR is, there could always be something in it that the seller doesn't know about.


you run the risk of pests anyways is what im saying , even if you qt your gonna have to go all out in order to keep pests out.

so buy liverock that appears to be pest free, with some reading you can easily find out what it is we dont want.


i never said stores sell liverock for $3 i said it can be got at 2-3$

[reefwars]

Sweet deal!

I still wouldn't buy it. :lol: I don't think either the "dry rock" or the "live rock" crowds are really swayed much be cost. I think there are other factors that each team is more hung up on.


exactly , so lets say your in the store and you see that amazing piece of rock that you know will never come around again.....your gonna buy it regardless of cost and whats on it.


most people who are that particular over liverock know what to do or are willing to do it or they simply pass on it.

[Reefer Rob]

If you're going with dry/quarried rock make sure to soak the rock in RO/DI water and test for PO4. Don't ask me how I know :sad:

Once it becomes live... and clean, it works great.

Seeding with clean live rock is a good idea for bio-diversity (pods, worms, etc, etc). I know you're trying to keep out the bad, but you also keep out the good. There's more to live rock than de-nitrification.

[Aquattro]

I don't think either the "dry rock" or the "live rock" crowds are really swayed much be cost. .

I'm pretty sure that if all the stores in town started selling freshly imported uncured fiji rock at $0.50/lb, we'd see a huge shift in people's concerns over pests. Fresh live rock would suddenly become the best thing ever,
In fact, if the cost was exactly the same for fresh vs. dry, I bet 8 out of ten would switch to real live rock.
Regardless of what changes happen in this hobby, the bottom line always comes to cost for the majority of hobbyists. Yes, some don't care, but for most it's a cost thing.

[vanreefer]

thats like home too liverock is 15.99/lb .....if your lucky you can get someone to sell out at 6-8$ but thats a steal of a deal then. so it does depend on what the market is like.

the op is from calgary though so price wont be much of a comparrison.

$16/lb is a great price in Siberia

[Enigma]

I'm pretty sure that if all the stores in town started selling freshly imported uncured fiji rock at $0.50/lb, we'd see a huge shift in people's concerns over pests. Fresh live rock would suddenly become the best thing ever,
In fact, if the cost was exactly the same for fresh vs. dry, I bet 8 out of ten would switch to real live rock.
Regardless of what changes happen in this hobby, the bottom line always comes to cost for the majority of hobbyists. Yes, some don't care, but for most it's a cost thing.

I was thinking more about the folks who are really strongly opinionated on the subject. For some things I do care about cost (I opted for Sols over pricier options, and a lot of that had to do with cost) but this isn't one of them.

So yes, those people who aren't really passionate about dry rock would probably switch if costs were the same.

[RuGlu6]

IMO all the pests above mentioned (stars, small worms, Apteisa etc) are Nothing ! compare to Giant Eunicid worm.
And this is the single reason that i will never start another tank with live rock.
The small or tiny Eunicid can be hiding in the hole and buyer will never know it’s there regardless how hard you look or how informed you are.
The only way to be sure at least in the beginning is to go Dry Rock.


http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_worm.htm
.
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50897
.
http://www.chucksaddiction.com/hitchworms.html
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc971vWUmbQ
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=YpD8jWvYEHI&NR=1
.

I got one out of my tank a couple of years ago but now another one grown.
This thing just recently ate $100 worth of zoas and took the best ones first.
Scrapes the zoas so clean off the rock and so fast! Some times in less than few hours.

Having said all that I kind of like the idea of keeping it in a species tank or a small nano so it can be seen and fed but I can’t take it out of my reef because I don’t want to take the reef apart.

May be I will feed it so it won’t go for the soft & LPS corals. Why it doesn’t eat the Kenya tree or GSP?!!! Or any other fast growing staff? Why it always goes for the best looking, most expensive and brightest color?
I wonder if I do start to target feed the Giant Eunicid Worm how big can it get in 65Gal tank? 7 footer seems like a good size for a show piece critter LOL.
Mine now is maybe 2 feet only but you will not believe how strong it is! It moves rocks and frags almost every night if I keep moving things away from its hiding place. But its also very hard to see, I saw it may be two years ago once! It will sense movement or vibration (I suspect) and will hide long before I can get close enough to the tank to see if its out in the open area.
It will not be possible to catch one with regular worm trap because (as I was told) it will never let go its tail of the hiding hole, just in case it will need to retract quickly.

Also this thing is very quick learner it will never do the same mistake twice!
So if you want to catch it do it right the first time or you will never be able to try again the same method.

I was told Harlequin Taskfish will take it out. But so it will eat all other shrimps crabs and molluscs in your tank.

[FitoPharmer]

But do you QT your corals now?
It just seems pointless to buy rock specifically for the pest free aspect and not QT. Especially because there is always a chance of infection of invasion from any frag or coral colony. I agree a giant eunicid worm would be one of the worst things to get in your tank. But is this another creature that can easily come in on a colony or frag and destroy your tank all the same?

[RenHoek104]

In Quebec City, I haven't found live rock less than $8/lb, and that's if you buy in bulk. I opted for dry rock at a chain store, came up to about $1.51/lb. After 4 months, my rock is purple and everything seems fine. I originally bought 15 pounds of live rock and and then added the base rock.
Ren