Need Help with High Phosphates

[LeanneP]

I haveI been having water quality issues for awhile and I have finally got an R/O water system now. I have an 86 gallon tank with a hammer coral, frogspawn and a candy cane coral. They have not been doing well and I now have a reading of 1.0 for phosphates.
Other parameters are:
PH-8.1
KH-8
Ca-390
Mg-1300
NH4, Nitrite and Nitrates all 0
I just did a 23 gallon water change a few days ago and plan to do another 15 gallons on Tues. or should I do another big one again.
I strain all my frozen food to reduce phophates. I am sure that this is from the water I was using as my cartridge filter did not seem to be doing the trick lately because our water is so bad here.
In the short term I was wondering if any one has used the phosphate removers to get my number down and how safe they are or is there a better way of getting the numbers down so I don't lose my corals.
Leanne P

[FitoPharmer]

GFO is the safest and easiest way to help out IMO since you are already changing water.

There is a sponsor on the boards that sells it wholesale.
Or you can purchase it from a store under brand names like Rowaphos or Phosban.

[Enigma]

I used Phosbuster Pro to knock my phosphates down (in addition to changing my ROWAphos). But! I dosed very conservatively: 1/4 dose or less, two days apart, and I watched my phosphate readings closely. It is one of those things that seems to trigger tank crashes when a whole dose is used at once: especially when a big reduction is required.

[FragIt Dan]

I used Phosbuster Pro to knock my phosphates down (in addition to changing my ROWAphos). But! I dosed very conservatively: 1/4 dose or less, two days apart, and I watched my phosphate readings closely. It is one of those things that seems to trigger tank crashes when a whole dose is used at once: especially when a big reduction is required.

+1, use some GFO in a reactor or in the short term just in a sock. Perhaps start with a half dose. You may also want to test your RO water for phosphates, you may be surprised. I opted to add DI to my RO system. RHF wrote an article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry on phosphate sources that suggests rinsing foods has negligible benefit. The rest of the article is pretty good too.


Dan

[LeanneP]

I am still kind of new to salt water so excuse my ignorance but what is GFO? I am sure it is something simple but I not figuring it out.
Leanne

[Nano]

Gfo- granular ferric oxide or phosphate remover.

[Rogue951]

It's also commonly known as rust. =)

I used pellets and grew chaeto in my sump before I started using a reactor.
I use all 3 now. phosphates might show up once in a while at 0.01.

[Myka]

Leanne, how are you testing phosphate and nitrate (which kits)? Which fish do you have in your tank? What type of skimmer do you use?

[daniella3d]

I find that a bit odd that you have 0 nitrates and 1.0 phosphates...seem strange.

[Myka]

Yeah I agree Daniella. I have a hard time believing there is "zero" nitrate with that much phosphate. That's why I'm questioning the testing method.

[LeanneP]

I have a Remora Aqua C skimmer that is about 6 months old. Fish are sailfin tang, rabbit fish, 3 damsels, 2 clowns and a lawn mower Benny. I did add some GFO earlier today and my hammer coral is already looking a bit better. I used Fluval brand which I am sure is not that great but it is what I had. I used the most minimum amount that they suggested to avoid bleaching.
I have just retested my nitrate with two kits and they both say 0 for nitrate but they are API and I know they are quite inaccurate. I have a Nutrfin test kit for phosphate, again it is saying 1.0. I know I need to invest in some better test kits. We don't have any stores that sell decent ones here so it is on my list for my next trip to Vancouver.
I know that I am having these issues because of the water quality so I hopeful now I have R/O water things will get back on track. I do have a TDS meter so I check all my water to make sure it is at 0 before I put it in the tank.
Thanks for all the help. I will try and find some better GFO tomorrow.
Leanne

[reefwars]

GFO is the safest and easiest way to help out IMO since you are already changing water.

There is a sponsor on the boards that sells it wholesale.
Or you can purchase it from a store under brand names like Rowaphos or Phosban.


i dont think phosban is gfo is it??? i thought it was aluminun based??

[reefwars]

I have a Remora Aqua C skimmer that is about 6 months old. Fish are sailfin tang, rabbit fish, 3 damsels, 2 clowns and a lawn mower Benny. I did add some GFO earlier today and my hammer coral is already looking a bit better. I used Fluval brand which I am sure is not that great but it is what I had. I used the most minimum amount that they suggested to avoid bleaching.
I have just retested my nitrate with two kits and they both say 0 for nitrate but they are API and I know they are quite inaccurate. I have a Nutrfin test kit for phosphate, again it is saying 1.0. I know I need to invest in some better test kits. We don't have any stores that sell decent ones here so it is on my list for my next trip to Vancouver.
I know that I am having these issues because of the water quality so I hopeful now I have R/O water things will get back on track. I do have a TDS meter so I check all my water to make sure it is at 0 before I put it in the tank.
Thanks for all the help. I will try and find some better GFO tomorrow.
Leanne

how many water changes have you done lately?? could explain why your nitrates are so low , tyically water chages dont do much for phoshates.

run the gfo and lay off the water changes for a week or 2 and let things stabilize then resume with your water changes.

phosphates do a number on a lot of coral.... imo its one of the things you really need to target right from the beginning.

the corals are always the first to tell;)

[Starry]

What size tank Leanne?

[FitoPharmer]

i dont think phosban is gfo is it??? i thought it was aluminun based??
I thought it was just the brand name Two Little Fish co. sold their GFO under.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=8996

[reefwars]

I thought it was just the brand name Two Little Fish co. sold their GFO under.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=8996


i guess they changed it ,its been years since i used phosban and it use to be aluminum based but looking at that says they changed to ferric oxide(iron)??

[reefwars]

which is good because the aluminum based stuff was ....well....CRAP lol it had the potential to leach back once full.....glad to see they came to their senses :)

[FitoPharmer]

Personally I have only used Rowaphos and bulk GFO.

[reefwars]

Personally I have only used Rowaphos and bulk GFO.


same here now but years ago phosban was the only thing i could get where i lived .

i swear by gfo and have for a long time now ,imo its a must have on any reeftank and by running it i dont even test phos anymore just change out media when algae starts to film on my glass :)

go gfo for the win!!


ive tried the phosdown......not a fan at all:twised:

[reefwars]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php

[Myka]

I have a Remora Aqua C skimmer that is about 6 months old. Fish are sailfin tang, rabbit fish, 3 damsels, 2 clowns and a lawn mower Benny.

Hmm, the Sailfin Tang and the Rabbitfish were not good fish choices for a tank your size. The Tang will grow to a good 16+" (and quite quickly too) and the Rabbitfish depending on which species will be 8-16" which is also too large for an 86-gallon aquarium imo. Both the Tang and the Rabbitfish are also eating and pooping machines which really adds to the biological load.

The Remora skimmer is a decent entry-level skimmer, and is definitely helping to filter the water for you. Albeit a higher quality skimmer would definitely help with both nitrate and phosphate by removing organics before they have time to break down. By no means am I saying you need to upgrade, (the skimmer is just fine) I'm just trying to help you understand how things work.

If you haven't read the link Dan provided to the Advanced Aquarist article on phosphate sources you really should. Here it is again... http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

I have just retested my nitrate with two kits and they both say 0 for nitrate but they are API and I know they are quite inaccurate. I have a Nutrfin test kit for phosphate, again it is saying 1.0. I know I need to invest in some better test kits. We don't have any stores that sell decent ones here so it is on my list for my next trip to Vancouver.
I know that I am having these issues because of the water quality so I hopeful now I have R/O water things will get back on track. I do have a TDS meter so I check all my water to make sure it is at 0 before I put it in the tank.
Thanks for all the help. I will try and find some better GFO tomorrow.
LeanneI would trust the API test kits much more than the Nutrafin test kits. I actually use the API Nitrate Kit on my fish-only tanks. I don't think it is accurate enough for reef tanks simply because it isn't sensitive enough in the lower end of the scale in my experience. The difference between 1 ppm and 5 ppm could solve some of our problems. I think Salifert or Elos for nitrate would be a better option for a reef tank.

The Nutrafin kit I would not trust at all. Salifert, Elos, and Hanna all put out good quality phosphate kits.

Both nitrate and phosphate are just as important to a healthy reef tank as calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium so I would suggest you start there.

I did add some GFO earlier today and my hammer coral is already looking a bit better. I used Fluval brand which I am sure is not that great but it is what I had. I used the most minimum amount that they suggested to avoid bleaching.

The Fluval GFO is just fine to use. It ends up being pricier than some other brands simply because its effectiveness less - you have to use more to do the same thing. You did a good job by just adding a very small amount at first. :)

[LeanneP]

Thanks for all the responses. Yes Myka I do realize the sailfin and rabbit fish will eventually be too big for my tank but they came with it when I got it. They are actually the best of friends so I almost feel like I will have to sell them as a pair! I have been buying the Elos test kits every time I go to Vancouver and nitrate and phosphate were on my list. Just too expensive to buy at once along with everything else.
I have to say that my corals are even looking worse now. Even my hammer coral who has seemed to fair the best is totally closed now. I was planning to do another 15gallon water change on Wednesday but there was a comment not to do one. I would think it would still help to bring the phosphates down as I have phosphate remover in my filter meaning the phosphate is in the water?
My water changes have not been very regular lately as it took several weeks to get my R/O system set up due to finding plumbing parts and then my dad ended up in the hospital for a week. I am planning to do weekly water changes until I can get things back on track. Or is that too much?
By the way Starry ,my tank is 86 gallons.
Leanne

[Myka]

Waterchanges are rarely a bad thing. Weekly or bi-weekly 10-15% waterchanges should be part of your regular maintenance. There is no reason to not continue with that schedule.

Exactly how much GFO did you add? Do you also use carbon?

[LeanneP]

I added 12grams of GFO as they said to use with caution for corals. I use Purigen in my filter. Should I try carbon instead? I was told Purigen was better.
I also have another skimmer that I am not using. Would there be any benefit to using it as we'll or would I be over skimming?
Leanne

[Myka]

Over-skimming is fairly difficult (unless you're trying haha). Generally, that is not something you need to worry about. Purigen is fine, I wouldn't say it is better or worse than carbon, it's just another option.

12 grams of the Fluval is about 15 mL (1 tbsp) or so? That is definitely on the cautious side, but that's good. I'm not convinced your phosphate is 1 ppm though, that's really high. You could add another 12 grams every second day or so. What does the Fluval stuff say is "full dose"? I use about 125 mL per 50 gallons of BRS normal capacity GFO, but that is quite aggressive.

[LeanneP]

Yes it is very conservative. It is at least 5 times that for full dose. I just checked my phosphate level again and it now looks like it is between 1.0 and.5. I'll get an API test kit to compare tomorrow (no one sells anything decent around here).
Leanne