Brad!

[DJ88]

I need a precise description of what happend when your clams started "going".

ASAP please.

Steve can you call him and get him to post???? I need it please..

[ 19 July 2002, 21:16: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

[DJ88]

^

Anyone who has lost a clam.. can you give me a description of waht it goes through..

my black max hasn't been opening fully all after noon. now the purple is looking shriveled and started sticking out a part of itself like in the picture that follows.. anyone???

temp swings in the last few weeks has been between 79 and 82. rest of the tank looks fine.

[ 19 July 2002, 21:47: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

[DJ88]

Is this normal????

http://members.shaw.ca/dj88/pix/clam1.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/dj88/pix/clam2.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/dj88/pix/clam3.jpg

[ 19 July 2002, 22:18: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

[Delphinus]

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT MINE WAS DOING!!!

NOBODY had any useful info for me. Nobody.

My clam lasted about 1.5 weeks after I first noticed that. Eventually .... you will not like the outcome. I'm sorry.

[Delphinus]

Have you posted in the clam forum at RC yet? I did and got nothing useful out of it, but maybe since you have PICTURES it will trigger some responses.

It seems to me this is part of the byssal gland. As to why it would do this, is completely beyond my speculations. The only thing I can think of, is that I had had some uncontrolled temp spikes a few weeks prior, and I subjectively felt that ever after since that, that the clam had not been expanding its mantle as much as it was prior to the spike. But why would this lead to the gland sticking out the inhalant siphon, and why would this happen a few weeks later (as opposed to right away)?

Or is it the byssal gland, maybe it is something else.

At any rate I was at a complete loss ... I did not know what to do, so I left it alone, continued feeding DT's, etc. But unfortunately, one day, poof, it was gone. So leaving it alone wasn't good enough ... There were no clues the day before that it was out to blink out (other than the lack of expansion for the few weeks prior). Just a nasty surprise one morning. :(

Good luck. And if you find anything out, please let me know too. I really, really would like to know the cause of this phenomenon..

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Is the clam still attached to the rock (i.e. is the foot in good condition) ?

Have you considered a antibiotic treatment (I am not a big fan...but it helps in unknown/last attempt to help)

- Victor.

[One_Divided]

Darren, I'm unhappy to report that my maxima has shown the same symptom today... It stuck out the "white thing" for about 20 seconds.. Keep us updated on how yours is doing and any info you find.. I should note that about a week ago my clam decided it didn't like the rock it was on.. It slowly moved along till it fell a few inches on to the sandbed. He's looked happy as can be untill today..

[ 21 July 2002, 13:09: Message edited by: One_Divided ]

[DJ88]

Victor,

I have tried placing BOTH of my maxs on rocks. In different places of my tank. They both jumped back to the sandbed where they are now. I gave up helping them find a rock to live on.

I don't want to medicate at all. I don't have a Q tank to do this in and am NOT going to medicate my main tank at all.

Adma,

Mine is gaping a bit right now.. but both have thier mantles out normally. no more sticking its "tongue" out.

We will see.

[One_Divided]

hmm interesting.. I wonder why they perfer to move to the sandbed..

Well I haven't seen the "tongue" since this morning. I guess I'll just keep an eye on him and see how he's doin.

[canadawest]

Darren if you want to medicate my 12gal Eclipse tank is up and running with no livestock in it (save a couple snails and crabs). Temps are always stable at 80F, and the water params are good, save a bit of nitrate.

If the medication wont permanently affect the rock or sand in my tank, you're welcome to bring them both by, plop them in for a while on whatever meds you think will help.

Only down side is it's only lit by a single 13W 7100K PC lamp, so I don't know if it's the best place for clams, but drastic times sometimes call for drastic measures.

[DJ88]

Thank you for the offer Andrew but from reading everything happeneing with the clams requiring medication I am highly doubting this has anything to do with that problem. And I don't like medicating something that isn't exhibiting the symptoms for medicating.

We will see what comes in the next few days.

[canadawest]

Darren what's the status of your clams?

My Maxima started showing similar behaviour today!

[Delphinus]

Are you guys absolutely sure there haven't been some kind of heat spikes in your tanks? Absolutely positive beyond all fraction of a reasonable doubt? Because I just find this to be completely odd that there is a string of this happening all at once. I don't think it's the dreaded clam plague, this is happening to clams from different sources and that have been in captivity for completely different lengths of time. The only thing that comes to my mind as being suspect, that we have in common, is that we are experiencing (or have been experiencing) unseasonably warm temps for durations longer than usual. I am pretty sure that it was heat stress from a heat spike my tank suffered a solid month before I saw this behaviour, so there is also a potential delay factor involved.

Anyways I am just rambling. This is my theory ... whether it is sound or not I am not sure.

[Aquattro]

Tony, no heat spikes in my tank whatsoever. The people I've talked to only after having introduced a new clam, all around the same time. Have you been following the thread on RC about this? Symptoms are identical. A poster named Reefdream has (so far) successfully treated this problem with antibiotics.
From memory, all the people on this board reported problems after purchasing a new clam.

[Delphinus]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I thought what YOU had, Brad, was the "recent clam plague." I am speaking of the "byssal gland though inhalant siphon behaviour" which is NOT this particular disease, but in fact something else. What I am hearing now, is that THIS has now been seen three times (me, DJ88, and Canadawest). But these are not necessarily clams which have had contact with this recent disease plague.

If you ask me, the diseased clams are clams that are from a particular source (perhaps a distributor or wholesaler), or from clams that have had contact with other clams from said unnamed source. Just my thoughts though, not based on anything but my own speculation. I have been following the threads on RC, but only loosely, I have not had a lot of time recently to be frequenting a lot of the other boards.

[ 25 July 2002, 11:12: Message edited by: delphinus ]

[Delphinus]

Sorry to hear it. But comments still apply. How on earth would your clams get the disease if they had no contact with any carrier? You said you've had this clam for a while. Have you put any new purchases (other than clams) into your tank recently? Unless so, I think you need to look elsewhere for your explanation. Heat is only one possibility -- I gave you that suggestion because it is one thing that coincidentally applies to both your story and mine -- quite warm weather for our cities.

FWIW, mine never spewed. It just died. It's not impossible that it was starvation too. If a person needs an ambient NO3 of 5ppm, unfortunately, I cannot get my NO3 to detectable level. I am still not certain exactly how much food these guys need. I have switched from dumping DT's and ESV's in at night to doing so in the morning -- I'm not certain if clams are actively feeding after lights out, so despite that I was feeding DT's, maybe I was feeding at the wrong time and thus diluting its overall effectiveness.

[ 25 July 2002, 14:17: Message edited by: delphinus ]

[MitchM]

Originally posted by delphinus:
What I am hearing now, is that THIS has now been seen three times (me, DJ88, and Canadawest). <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">uh, make that 4....my smallest guy (1-1/2") is showing the occassional tongue lately.... ;)

:(

Mitch

[One_Divided]

don't forget me too.. that makes 5..

[ 25 July 2002, 17:22: Message edited by: One_Divided ]

[DJ88]

Tony,

I had introduced a new clam in. Tho I seriously dobt this is the cause. I went back and thought about it and shortly after the new derasa went in there was a spike in my tank. The 3-4 degree swings I have now I am betting are the cause of this death. Put it this way. Before I buy another clam I am investing in a chiller. Easy as that.

How do you feel when the temperature outside fluctuates a lot? Like crap right?

[DJ88]

And then there were none......
:(

[Mares77]

My maxima did the same thing a few weeks back..but it is still doing well...hope that makes you feel better.....

[DJ88]

Well mine started spewing clouds of sperm or whatever about two days ago. It's gone now.

Black max still looks ok.

My temp never goes above 82 Tony. As soon as it hits 81.5 MH goes out. No major spikes.

[Delphinus]

Oh no, Darren, I'm sorry to hear it. :(

Yeah, it's really too bad those chillers are such incredible expenses. But it almost does seem a necessity for the few weeks per year that temperature is going to be a problem. I don't know.

[AJ_77]

Even the black one? That is heinous; they were beautiful.

Alan

[Mares77]

Well....it finally caught up to me....LAst night i thought everything was okay...this morning i lost the blue maxima...Sad Day!!! :(

[EmilyB]

Is this just happening to Maximas ?

I have a derasa and was very disturbed to read in this thread (http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17001) that the pathogen can be introduced to the tank with a new coral, and not necessarily a new clam. :eek:

[BCReefer]

Darren,

Mine looked healthy, I could not be sure since the clam was against the glass and I could not clean it as I did not want to bother the clam. But it went from looking healthy to an empty shell in 1 night.

I have tried everything from DT’s night, day, extra feedings, moving higher, middle everything but I just end up leaving it where it went and it was happy for about 2 months then gone.

What is happening? I know on reefs they are discussing this in great length and there is some discussion happening on clams on Sunday??

FYI, I had both a Golden and Blue Maxima die on me purchased 2 months apart.

Patrick

[EmilyB]

Originally posted by EmilyB:

I have a derasa <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">which is now gaping...
:mad:

[DJ88]

What is happening? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">IMO. Heat. Plain and simple. Two degree temp swings can be fatal to a clam. I am pretty sure none here who lost a clam has a chiller on their system. Right? How many online had a chiller? Take a look at the time frame of this happeneing. Record heat waves all across North America. Before I buy another clam I am placing a chiller on my system. Easy as that.

Here is my thoughts on causes.

Vibrio, It is found on EVERY tridacnid in nature. I have three other bivalves(a small clam, mussel and oyster) in my tank. None died. So no virus IMO. Has anyone involved in this approached an actual Marine Bio who specializes in tridacnids? None have as far as I can see. All I see is guys like us trying to make sense of something that is so far above our heads it isn't funny. Distributors are in the same boat. Has any distributor had a huge scale wipe out like is going on in our tanks? Maybe one store and even then it wasn't the stock that big distributors carry. It was numbered at aroudn ten. Maybe. Have the harvesters/suppliers had large scale wipe outs? no. If it is only affecting the end purchaser that means you have to look for commonalities in all tanks. The one I see is heat. In summertime temps go up. Temps go up we have more losses.

Unless something drastic happens reefs don't change two degrees in the time frames we see in our tanks. We can see a swing of two degrees in less than an hour in some cases. Can you imagine the energy it would take to raise the temp of a reef by two degrees in a couple of hours?? It takes one kilojoule to heat one pound of water one degree fahrenheit or one calorie to heat one gram of H2O by one degree celsius. Now to heat millions of gallons of moving/turbulent H2O on a reef by two degrees you would need (say 1,000,000 gallons) 16,000,000 Kjoules

one lb of water is ~ one pint. With there being 8 pints in a gallon that means 1,000,000 gallons weighs 8,000,000 lbs. 8,000,000 times 1kjoule per degree times two for two degrees gives us 16,000,000 KILOjoules of energy. And that is assuming a constant heating of all the water in question. No cooling due to wind or evaporation or cooler water coming in with the current. But with the reef water being changed so rapidly, it would take much more to get the reef to shift by two derees.

That is my .02 on this whole thing.. lol

Personally we need to stop blaming the stores, shippers, suppliers etc. The cause is right in our own homes. IMO

Deb,

Gaping doesn't necessarily mean your Derasa is on it's way out. I have seen my purple max one gape and was fine for the longest time. In a thread on RC a distributor even says gaping isn't always a sign of impending death. So there is hope yet. :D

[DJ88]

I'll add this in..

The most probable root of a problem is usually the simplest one.

This has turned into a witch hunt for some mysterious disease, when there is probably evidence availabe to answer 90% or more of the losses right in front of each hobbiests face. Your thermometer.

but this was all my thoughts on it. You can believe what you want. I know what I think with some time to think and read about it.

JMVHO

[ 27 July 2002, 14:20: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

[Aquattro]

Darren, I don't agree with the heat story. My tank did nothing this year that it didn't do last. I only had one day where my temp was anywhere above normal and it was between my squamosa and first maxima dying.
I believe samples have been sent to a biologist and the results are due shortly. One person treating with antibiotics circumvented a clam's death (so far). I have read about mass numbers of clams dying at wholesalers.
Using Adam as an example, his basement is cool all the time and I'm sure his tank didn't fluctuate a degree.
There are hundreds of these reports on RC and I don't think a poll has been done regarding chillers.
I know that during my move 4 months ago, the heat went from 76 to 86 degrees in my tank in a matter of 10 hours. My clams were fine. So I don't believe my tank going from 81 to 85 in the same time period is going to kill them now.
I don't see anyone blaming any retailer or other supplier for this "epidemic"....if J&L sold me a clam, I know they believe it to be in perfect health. I have complete faith in their practices. Clams, like fish and corals, can have hidden problems we won't see until we get them in our tanks. The only ones to blame are ourselves for propagating the removal of ornamental organisms from the ocean.

I have been following the clam "problem" closely, as I'm sure you have, and I haven't seen any one blame a store for causing this.
This stuff happens and we're unhappy when it does. But that is an unfortunate part of the hobby we participate in....things DO die. We try our best to prevent it, but they can and do die.
If it's proven to be heat, I retract almost all of the above, but until something concrete is attributed with these deaths, I'm calling it a mystery.

~The End~

[canadawest]

Well I just lost my T. Maxima overnight, so I am also part of this tragedy. :(

Not sure what the cause is, but I tend to agree with Brad. Sure I've had regular temp fluctuations the past couple weeks, usually 3-4 degrees in a day. But I find it highly suspicious that this all happend a month after I added a new Derasa.

Last year we had an even worse heat wave. I had no hood fans, and experienced temp swings of 4-5 degrees each day over the entire week. I was floating frozen 2L bottles and reducing my photoperiod to try to compensate. I even lost two fish due to the stress. And what of my little T. Maxima, it never showed any signs of stress. Here we are a year later with the same temperature circumstances. Why the death this year, and not last year?

I can agree that temperature was probably an aggrivating factor, but I think it's just too convenient that people are experiencing losses after introducing a new clam (or even just corals now I am reading)

Who knows the answer? But I do know that there will be no new clams for me now for several months, especially now as I watch the remaining little Derasa and see if it is affected.

[DJ88]

Brad,

I highly doubt it is some mystery illness.

I am not saying it was one spike of two degrees.. constant repetative raising and lowering of temperature is what will stress a clam. I know that even on a cool day when I had my 250W come on over my tank the temp went up In the winter, spring, summer and fall it is the same thing. No way around it short of a chiller to keep the tank temp at bang on 79 or whatever you chose. Everyone has it. Maybe those clams that came via J&L had experienced a large heat spike PRIOR to arriving at J&L and all it took was the moving into a new tank and then another into yours that was the last straw?

If it is a bug why has the distributors(ie growers/pickers) not lost huge numbers as well?

The only commonality that is in this whole thing is the hobbiests tanks. Small tanks with wider temperature swings. The farmers don't run small gallon systems with large MH lights blasting heat out. They run huge systems that take a lot more energy to heat up. And thus temperature wise, much more stable. I'll bet most are running natural lighting or pendant systems which do not introduce heat into the water as we get in a sealed hood.

One person treating with antibiotics circumvented a clam's death (so far)<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To me someone saying he saved his clam by putting it in a Qtank with an antibiotic is not proof he saved it. It is someone who has many different factors in one large equation who is assuming that the anibiottics did it. Does he know with 100% certainty? There are too many factors in all of this. Can he prove with 100% certainty that it was the antiboitics that saved it? Could it have been cleaner water? More stable water? Dirtier water? lower lighting? higher lighting? food? lack of food? Better angle for the moons gravitaional pull? LOL! He doesn't know what saved that clam anymore than I do or even you do. All you see are words on a screen that someone else typed from him observing something else without any quantitative data or studies done. Did he send off all of his fatalities to be autopsied? I didn't. They are in a dump somewhere now. Maybe the antibiotic did do something. He doesn't know that it killed off some disease of pathogen. All he knows is his clam got better. A hobbiest saying that drug X saved his clam is like me saying because I pay a bear patrol tax I haven't been attacked by a bear in my third floor apartment in the middle of Coquiitlam. lol

See my point? There is no scientific basis for his claims that the anit-biotic saved his clam. He didn't test the tissure prior to or even after. There were no long term studies or testing done. He plopped the clam into another tank and a half day later said his clam was saved. lol

I still ask and will keep asking. Why have none of the major distributors lost clams in the numbers we are? Don't you think LFS's would hear about a major die off? Do you honestly believe if they knew they would even buy a single clam from the distributor? I find J&L to be a very honest store. They aren't going to buy clams from a supplier that they knew had lost a large percentage of stock and chance having all they had bought die in the store. That isn't sound business.

I didn't do anything different either but I lost two clams I have had for over a year. Made it through a move across to Vancouver and everything. This wasn't one heat spike but a number of parts to one large equation.

Maybe that one clam that died released enough of something from inside it to get your clams that were fine that little bit weaker and more succeptible to the heat swings. If that is the case then when that one clam was moved and treated in a sepatarte tank all that saved that clam was clean water.

There are too many clams, in too many tanks, over too wide a distance to test and know for sure that there was a mysterious disease. Unless every clam that has died is tested we can't say a disease caused this. I am going with temp myself as I don't buy into the dreaded clam disease... lol I asked John if all of that batch of clams he got in died. He called the other owners and found one predominant response. No. My clam is fine. It is the small number of reefers who visit a couple of boards online that are screaming clam disease. Why think it is your own fault if you cna come up with some fantastic clam disease sent to you by the wholesalers.. lol.

This is going to fade away till the next time a bunch die with the owner not having all the facts and jumping at a conclusiong as to what is causing it. Then it will get dragged up again and panic will set in with people screaming "IT'S BACK!" lol

The clam virus story is just fantastic enough to get peoples natural suspicions and paranoias going. Heck he could have put lemon juice in his tank and had the same results. Or else prepping it for dinner. ;)

lol

smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

[ 27 July 2002, 15:07: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

[One_Divided]

I agree with brad that it seems suspicious that if it was heat, why wasn't it happening last year?

I can't take the time to read all of the ramblings, but I have read the main points. Sorry if I have missed anything important.

Yes, my tank temp has been higher lately.. goes up as much as 84 at the hottest point of the day and then drops to 80 at night.. I have seen no changes in any other behaviour in the tank. Would I be safer bumping up my thermometer so there is less of a swing when lights go out?

I do see that temp could have been the cuase with some of these deaths but something else seems to be happening here too.. gotta run..

[SuperFudge]

Sorry to hear guys about your losses,

Heat had no bearing on the death of my clams,nor could i say that it was a viral problem.
Altho i have temps exceeding 86 on a few occasions this summer it was no where near times of death.
Deaths were also spread atleast by 2 months apart.
i still have one maxima,and it has grown noticeably during all these heat waves and other neighboring clam deaths.

Sounds silly,but i think other than say one unhealthy shipment from a large clam supplier to our stores.....id say its just a nasty coincidence.

I couldnt say it was a contaminated salt shipment either....but id be interested in knowing what you guys are using for a salt brand that have also lost their clams,I/O?

Marc.

[EmilyB]

My clam appears to be fine. I think I just panicked. My temp has never gone over 84 and I keep the heaters at 80. Being a 155g tank, I don't think the fluctuations are rapid enough to be a problem for me. I will buy a chiller for my house next year however. :D

I find the salt question interesting, as it could be entirely something else all these people have in common.

[DJ88]

I am gonna throw this out there for everyone to chew on. smile.gif

Ok.. something has happened to a number of clams.

now.. IF and I stress IF it was some kind of a disease/virus, what have you, it would be something that could possibly have a massive effect on the actual wild stocks of clams.. Right? Imagine if this got out in nature and was a killer. Wiped out.. With the death tolls we are seeing in just the small percentage of people that post on the boards we frequent that would be horrible in nature.

We all know that there is pretty much a Dr. in marine Biology out there for everything you see in the ocean. Especially the pretty things that catch our eye like clams, corals, fish etc.

Now those Dr's, that we know are out there are, going to immediately look into something possibly destroying the thing they love and work for. Right? Well I am betting they have already done so. You know that every major supplier of Clam's has contacts in the research end of the world. When I say suppliers I am talking about on the actual islands. The guys who grow them or pick them. I'd bet even some major stores and wholesalers have contacts that they can check in with.

Don't you think that something that could possibly wipe out a major source of food for millions would grab immediate attention? And secondly have an effect on small percentage of hobbyists like us? This "disease" could theoretically do a lot of damage.

I am betting that as soon as the word virus or disease popped up phones started ringing in many a research office. Clams were sent. Clams were tested.

Now if there was something it would make news in the hobby before the TV shows could get it out.

I'll bet there are many a Dr out there that is laughing his or her collective a$$ off at a bunch of hobbyists making a diagnosis with NOT a single one of them having the qualifications or experience to make it. Remember.. we are hobbyists.. We keep pretty things in a miniature copy of what we think nature is. We don't do that good a job at imitating nature in reality. We try but it's not nature. If these Dr's are out there, I would not be surprised if NONE of them posted a word on any board. Remember when Dr Bingman used to post? Where is he now? He had rank amateurs with none of the education or training he has telling him he was wrong when he would say something. So he doesn't post. Do you think someone is going to get into what will certainly become a ****ing match? Someone who has been on the board longer than some Dr joining in with today's date will feel he knows more and tell him so. It always happens.

Your clams died. Clams died last summer. Clams will die next summer. They died before we had our little episode and will most certainly die in the years to come. Are you going to know what killed them? no. It is as easy or as hard as that.

It could be salt, it could be reactor media, food, soap on your hands, smog in the air, your breath after too many onions, cigarettes.. who knows.. we aren't going to know what killed OUR clams. Jumping on a bandwagon screaming disease, virus! Is going no where.

We are hobbyists. Plain and simple. In the grand scheme of things we sit very low on the totem pole of knowledge about our tanks and systems. We muddle through it. Looking to the ones higher up to throw us scraps of knowledge from the table. Only people who aren't in the hobby are lower. I say get used to it. It isn't going to be the first time something dies in your tank. It won't be the last. I guarantee it. Fish, coral, clam whatever. All we can do is the best we can to ensure the optimal environment in our tank.. I will be doing even more in the future. We all know clams are sensitive to changes in our tanks. Read D Knops clams book. He says it there and in sources online. I saw one reply where a guy had asked why his clam died after a water change. Funny thing was it was showing the same symptoms as ours did. Mucus, spewing sperm, gaping, slow reaction to touch or change in light. I have read other articles where they say not to let your tank exceed 82 degrees with clams. I know mine did in this heat wave..

Did yours?????

Nite all..

[StirCrazy]

hey Darren, I am not a expert on clams but your 2 degree heat spike doesent sit well with me.. I have seen on the island here that water temps can change by 20 degrees with the tide, whare we go camping the water is at about 78 degrees for about 2 hours after the tide comes in. now I can't say that the temps DIDN'T kill your clams but I think it is highly unlikely. my reasoning for this is that there are reports all over the US of clams dieing (and of distrubters losing up to 200 in one shot) also if you ask LFS on the island here 3 different ones have said there is a bacterial in the clams right now and no one will bring them in..

also there has been proof of this sickness

"This problem is caused by a bacterial infection. Two years ago it was isolated by a lab in Florida to by a bacterial in Vibrio strain (gram-negative). Vibrio bacteria cause a number of human ailments including cholera and acute bacterial diarrhea. More specific pathology for the exact bacteria causing harm to our clams will be available for the San Francisco area outbreak later this week as some dying clams have been sent into a pathology lab specializing in marine organisms. This bacterial problem in ornamental reef clams is not new. It (or something very similar) happened about two years ago too.

As it turns out, Sprung and Delbeck are recommended the tetracycline family of antibiotics for this problem. I just happened to have something on hand, so after I lost 2 of my 3 clams to this problem, I tried an antibiotic from the tetracycline family called minocycline. My last clam, which just yesterday was showing gaping and the classic mucus, seems fine today living in a bath of antibiotics. Treatment was given at 100 mg minocycline per 5 gallons (I read this is close to the common dosage for fish). After 24-48 hours, the water should be replaced in the bucket and treated again at the same dosage for two more days. After that the clam should be returned to a tank separate from the one it caught the disease. In several months, the clam might be able to be returned to the main tank, but the amount of time to wait is anyone's best guess. I AM BASING THIS ROUTINE ON WHAT I'VE READ ONLY! It is NOT proven yet to me personally!

Of the tetracyclines, Delbeck recommends doxycycline in particular probably because of its relatively low affinity to calcium (good in a high-calcium organism). Where does one get that stuff without holding your local doctor hostage? The answer was found about as far from my mind as possible as I set out on the search.

The answer is in racing pigeon care. Racing pigeons are sometimes given a doxycycline solution to prevent respiratory infection after coming home from a race. The concentration of such a solution is, I have read, 500 to 1000 mg/gallon of water. This is 20 to 40 times the strength recommended by fish experts in treating fish bacterial infections. That might be expected too as saltwater organisms are constantly processing water since they have to counter the osmotic pressure that forces them to dehydrate all the time.

I found a place in Savannah, Georgia called Global Pigeon Supplies that sells enough to treat 400 to 800 gallons of saltwater (depending on what concentration they are using for the pigeons) for $22.95 + $7 shipping. Since I ordered today and had it sent to my work, I'll probably get it on Wednesday. "

I don't have a clam so you might say why do I care about this.. the answer is because I want a clam :D this same thing happend 2 years ago

Also we have both Steve Tyree and Charles Delbeek calling it a bacterial infection.. I just don't see why you won't beleive it..

after all is sed and done it is not the fault of the LFS and shouldent bear on there reputation(if that is what you are trying to protect) but rather the fault of a importer, who people are scared to name due to law suits, that brought a shipment in from Ponape..

now I don't want to start a Pi$$ing match but I don't see how you can go with your heat theory with all the evadence.. but I will put forth something for you to chew on.. do you know of anyone who has lost clams that haven't 1, putchased a clam laitly or 2, purchased something from a clam tank and maby got a bit of the water in there tank ( as this bacteria can be transported by water).

Steve

Then again I might not have any clue what I am talking about either :D : D

[ 27 July 2002, 21:20: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

I don't understand what the big fuss is about antibiotics. If you know your clam is in trouble, and you know that it will probably die (more than 50/50 chance), then why not take a chance. Sure, we don't quite understand what this stuff is, but we can at least try. Has anybody even tried it yet ?

And the heat theory...probably not. Tanks, on a daily basis, can move up and down 3 degrees F. Besides, this is not the only time we have had heat spurts ... we have these kinds of things every year. Heat moving up and down can stress a clam (probably), but it probably isn't the cause of the death.

- Victor.

[Aquattro]

After reading the responses of people with a lot more clam experience than me, several of which are clam distributors, most of whom have had some of their clams for many summers (and heat waves), stating that they "feel" it is a bacterial problem with some particular shipment of clams makes me follow that line of thought. According to some, personal communications with Daniel Knop meet with agreement. Now I don't know if Mr. Knop is a doctor of anything, but his opinion counts to me.
I'm not a doctor either and really know nothing about mollusc physiology, and barely know a maxima from a crocea. But this excuse of "The dreaded heat wave" isn't convincing me of anything. It cannot be proven anymore than the bacterial story. I believe all the people complaining about clam deaths had recently aquired a new clam. Those who did not get a new clam still have their existing clams. I guess they all have chillers? I think not.
Personally I don't care if anyone here thinks aliens killed their clams. I bought a new one, my others dies as a result. To be cautious, I will NOT buy any more clams this year. If someone does replace their dead clams and is successful, please let everyone know.
This thread isn't going to end with any type of agreement: I have my opinion, based on what I've read, others have their opinions based on whatever they base opinions on. If they get a new clam, I wish them the best of luck, really, I do.

P.S. Darren, just so you know, people stopped paying bear patrol tax years ago. ;)

[EmilyB]

I have read other articles where they say not to let your tank exceed 82 degrees with clams. I know mine did in this heat wave..
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you please share those Darren, that is really interesting.

[DJ88]

Florida to by a bacterial in Vibrio strain <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well luckily I happened into a conversation with a Dr who studies Tridacnids.

Vibrio is present on all clams in nature.

I stated this in one of my first posts.

(and of distrubters losing up to 200 in one shot <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where? Been following most threads.. 200?

have seen on the island here that water temps can change by 20 degrees with the tide, whare we go camping the water is at about 78 degrees for about 2 hours after the tide comes in. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In an intertidal zone right? In a location on earth not even similar to a reef. On a reef a .5 degree change over MONTH is a big thing. It causes mass bleachings. 20 degrees on a reef would WIPE out the whole reef. If .5 degrees can cause a documented bleaching of a reef on a small island what would 2 degrees do? I'll dig up the paper I was reading a while ago about documented bleachings. Maybe then people will see that temperature swings are NOT normal on a reef.

Sprung and Delbeck are recommended the tetracycline family of antibiotics for this problem <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They are basing this on their experiences keeping and working with fish I am betting. Till a specialist in Tridacnids gets in on this with proof it is more than just stress causing one clam to go and then fouling a tank taking others with it, I won't jump on a bandwagon creted by a hobbyiest like myself. I almost did.. I really wanted to believe it was someone elses fault. Place blame. But when it comes down to it the blame has to be shared with everyone. including the owner. How is it that not all of those clams shipped to J&L have died? Why isn't there an even greater outcry than a few reefkeepers on a forum talking about some clams dying. The number of people that are actually in this hobby that are on that forum are miniscule in comparison to the numbers out there in this hobby. If it wasn't true how is it that so many people are constantly joining the boards that already have a tank up and running? Or have been in tho hobby for years? I met a family from the valley today that have been at this for years, the last time in another gentleman who has bee at this for almost ten years. Never been on a board. They never even heard of Canreef, Reefs.org or Reef Central. Because it is said on a forum doesn't mean it is gospel. Take it for what it is.. Someone typing some words to pass on what they have seen or heard. Take it with a grain of salt. Like you should my posts.. like all posts. I do now.. big time. Beginning to see some of the futility in going on a board. lol.

If it is a virus.. why didn't my other bivavles in my tank croak as well.. my oyster I have had for two years plus is still going fine as are the mussel and clam I have on other rocks in my tank?
Just looked at them.. poked them with a feeding stick.. they are still alive and well.

The answer is in racing pigeon care. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">really. Pigeon care is the answer.. lol. my giggle for the day. :D Sorry but that is hilarious.

My point of this all is, one guy tossing a random drug into his tank and having one clam survive isn't proof. Far from it. Was there any actual documented evidence there is a bacterium? Virus whatever? no. Did he test the clam prior to medicating? no. did he test the clam post medicating? no. Did he test the "infected" tank? no. Did he test the "clean" tank? no., did he test the deceased clams? no. Did he test his water prior to adding the new clams? no. That is a whole lot of no's. Too many for me to say that he has proof that this pigeon drug is the cure.

I found a place in Savannah, Georgia called Global Pigeon Supplies that sells enough to treat 400 to 800 gallons of saltwater (depending on what concentration they are using for the pigeons) for $22.95 + $7 shipping. Since I ordered today and had it sent to my work, I'll probably get it on Wednesday. " <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I bet they would burst out laughing if they knew what the sudden rush was on selling pigeon drugs was due to. A bunch of un-informed hobbyests diagnosing a problem themselves.

Steve Tyree and Charles Delbeek calling it a bacterial infection.. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Based on what? If I said I have a miracle cure for this would you call me to buy it? What testing have they done to verify that there is a virus??? Looking at a tank and making and assumption does one thing. It makes an A$$ out of U and ME

but I don't see how you can go with your heat theory with all the evadence <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What evidence????? There is no factual proof other than a bunch of clams dying. Nothing more.
Can't you see that?

All that has been shown is that clams are dying. When they go they exhibit exactly what Daniel Knop described as symptoms that were shown when somones clam died after a water change. Mucus, spewing clouds of white stuff(sperm), lack of responsiveness to light stimuli, not closing properly. Sound familiar? It sure did when I read it. Added to my conviction that this isn't a virus but is a bunch of deaths occuring at the same time. What has caused it? who knows.. but in reading how delicate clams are, how to propely handle them when taking them out of a bag or moving them etc etc. Heck I did the moving thing wrong. Many times. Did you know you should never lift a clam up out of the water with it's byssal glad down and it's opening facing up? I didn't. Causes damage to its internal organs due to the waer still contained inside it. That is why they squirt out the water. To releive the sudden pressure chage. Now that i think about it I did it about once a week in an effort to get the bryopsis that was growing on them off. And the derasa was not showing good extension or reaction to light as I should have checked when I bought it. So in effect I will believe that those were the causes for the demise of my clams in addition to the three to four degree temperature fluctuations I have. In a multi clam tank all it takes is for one clam to begin spewing sperm as it is dying and the others will follow suit. This will foul the water very quickly. Cause stress, and if the clams are already weak it may be enough of a trigger to kill them all. That one clam that was saved due to the drugs.. Was it not moved to a different tank? After all the other clams in the tank had reelased sperm? Could this have fouled hte water enough to cause sickness? Maybe? possibly? I'd lay money there personally.

As far as water carrying the "virus"... I was in J&L today.. looking at the clam tank. If there is any clams that would be succeptable to getting sick it would be very small ones. The weak and food requiring ones right? They have had about a half dozen in there for the last few weeks. Not every clam that came in that shipment died.... Heck there is two nice big derasas in there if I remeber right. They look WONDERFUL! I even contemplated buying one. Fully responsive to light and movement. Great color. Great mantle. But I won't until I can say my tank temperatures are stable.

It all comes down to optimal environment. I know now I didn't have one. I didn't like seeing temp swings before. After some of the things on bleaching in corals I have seen. I don't want any again.

I am done.. this is getting too funny..

pigeon medicine.. ROFL!

nite.

[ 27 July 2002, 22:27: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

[DJ88]

Here is a VERY interesting article on clams. I'll post it and the link to it as well.

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/may/shell/default.asp

Here are a bunch of articles that I highly recommend everyone wanting or owning clams to read.

http://www.reefs.org/library/aquarium_frontiers/On_The_Half_Shell.html

Gamete Release by Giant Clams in Aquaria

Giant clams have often been observed to release egg cells and sperm in aquaria. This is undoubtedly an interesting event because gamete release is a common occurrence that normally involves several clam individuals. Under natural conditions, this enables the clams to exchange their genetic material to produce offspring with good environmental adaptations.
But, aside from being fascinating, gamete release in the confines of our aquaria sometimes brings problems for the aquarist by causing a drastic decrease in water quality, which can be a threat to other tank inhabitants. It can cause disaster among fish and invertebrates and even among the clams themselves. It is therefore important for the aquarist to pay scrupulous attention to the water quality and take some counter measures listed below whenever necessary.

Some frequently asked questions about this topic are: What triggers gamete release in clams in an aquarium? Why do many clams in a reef tank join in? Is it true that clams used to die after gamete release? Is it harmful for the fish to feed on the egg cells? What can I do to prevent the water quality from deteriorating after gamete release?

What triggers gamete release in aquaria?

As with other creatures, gamete release serves to maintain the species. Under good conditions in nature, this normally depends on the presence of mature egg cells in the gonadal tissues of at least one adult clam within the clam colony. This clam will start releasing its gametes and simultaneously release a hormone-like substance to inform other giant clams about the event. Because the giant clams are simultaneous hermaphrodites, they can produce sperm and egg cells at the same time, provided they are fully mature. Many of the other colony-mates will detect the “biochemical message” and join the spawning event.

Because clams reach their male maturity at a relatively young age and small shell size, a clam colony always includes many more sperm-producing clams than those that produce eggs. Therefore, most of the milky clouds that arise from the little excurrent syphons of a clam consist of sperm. As mentioned above, this is how it all starts under good conditions in nature. But sometimes, giant clams also spawn sperm and eggs after rapid changes of environmental conditions or after strong environmental stress. This can be due to overheating from sunlight when the clams become dry during ebb tide, exposure to freshwater during a strong rain at ebb tide or other environmental changes that make the survival of the clam colony questionable. In this case, the clams sometimes react to the irritation by spontaneously releasing gametes. This is meant to ensure the survival of the colony and the species in case the clams die because of the environmental stress. They release egg cells and sperm to produce larvae that can settle near the colony or elsewhere and grow to adult clams, thus forming a new clam generation.

In the artificial breeding of clams, this strategy can even help make the clams spawn egg cells (Knop 1996). The clams are placed in the sun for 20 or 30 minutes, sometimes even longer, imitating an ebb tide on a hot summer day. If one of the clams has mature egg cells, it is likely they will be released when the clam is placed back in the water. The spawning of clams after events of stress has proven to be a successful strategy, at least under natural conditions. However, we have frequently observed problems with this strategy when importing clams from a hatchery. Out of a hundred clams, most of the time there will be one or two clams that are irritated due to transportation stress. They will release gametes as soon as they are put into the water. This normally triggers gamete release in many other clams, and after a short period of time, the stocking tank looks like a giant glass of milk. This causes additional stress for the clams, which is quite unfortunate right after the stress of transport.

This situation is also often observed in reef aquaria. Small environmental changes in the aquarium can trigger a clam to release egg cells or sperm. This may be caused by heat stress during summer, using freshwater to top off the tank from evaporation or doing a partial water change. Soon other giant clams in that tank will join the spawning event and the tank water will become turbid.

In other cases, the environmental conditions in the aquarium did not change at all prior to the spawning event. In those cases, it is likely that one of the clams did not adapt to the captive environment and was about to die for whatever reason — perhaps insufficient illumination, bad water quality, harassement of fishes — among other reasons. Before dying, this clam expelled sperm and/or egg cells. If this clam should eventually die, the unexperienced aquarist may come to the opinion that it died because of gamete release, while the truth is just the other way around: it has released gametes because of the nearing of death.

Generally, many fish that are commonly kept in the tank with the clams will be very happy about the egg cells. They feed on them like crazy, especially the smaller planctivorous fishes, such as several Anthias or Chromis species. Unlike the egg cells released by some fish species that are known to be poisonous, like the eggs of the scooter blenny (Synchiropus ocellatus), tridacnid clam eggs are a harmless food for aquarium fish. But this joy is not long lasting, because soon the gametes start to die. Because the egg cells and sperm have all been exposed to the water for about the same period of time, many of these die more or less simultaneously. This causes the water to become polluted and there is a remarkable decrease in oxygen. Under good aquarium conditions, this does not necessarily pose a threat for the reef tank community, but this is strongly dependent on the amount of water, equipment such as protein skimmers or filtration with granular activated carbon, as well as other factors like the water conditions or the number and size of fish kept in the tank. Another important factor is the number and size of clams that have released gametes.
It is impossible to give an estimate about the risk of damage for the tank inhabitants. In every case of a giant clam spawning, the aquarist should be prepared to take some countermeasures in order to prevent the aquarium community from being harmed. Here are a few things you can do to minimize the risk:

1) If the large size of the clam expelling gametes makes you worried about the water conditions (e.g., an adult T. squamosa with a 40-centimeter [15-inch] long shell in a relatively small tank) try to transfer the clam into another tank or a pail or bucket during spawning. Fill the bucket with aquarium water and place the clam in there until the gamete release has stopped. It is a good idea to change the water in this bucket once or twice if gamete release takes a long period of time. Also, you should monitor the water temperature and provide water circulation, preferably with an airstone fed by an air pump. The water taken out of your tank will be replaced by new artificial seawater. Once the clam has finished gamete release, place it back in the display tank in the same location it was before the event.

2) The same thing is advisable if gamete release takes place in a dealer’s clam stocking tank. This is especially important directly after the importation of clams, because the clams have been weakened during transportation and further stress caused by decreasing water conditions can be harmful to the mollusks. If one of the clams starts expelling sperm or egg cells after being introduced to the stocking tank, remove it as soon as you notice it. If other clams join in, also remove those from the stocking tank and place them in a separate container, while providing the conditions mentioned above (water temperature, aeration). This can prevent the stocking tank’s water conditions from deteriorating. After my experiences with newly imported clams of several species and sizes, the risk of having a gamete release is relatively big. When importing 500 clams at a time and placing them in five stocking tanks with 100 clams in each tank, most of the time we experience a spawning event in at least one of the tanks, sometimes even in two tanks. With clams of various sizes, the number of clams joining the gamete release will mostly be around five to 20 individuals per stocking tank. Transfering the spawning clams to different containers during gamete release enables you to leave the other clams alone without a further change of the aquarium conditions.

3) If you have a huge clam spawning in a relatively small tank and you cannot remove the clam, there is a simple way to syphon out the gametes before they can spread in the tank. What you will need for this is a funnel, a flexible tube and a pail. Connect the tube to the funnel and place the end of the tube in the pail. Now hold the funnel over the spawning clam and suck at the end of the tube in order to create a water flow down to the pail. Once the water is flowing, stop the flow by pressing the tube. Once you see the clam filling its excurrent chamber with water in order to blow gametes through the excurrent syphon, open the tube. The funnel will collect most of the gametes and transport them into the bucket.

4) When you observe giant clams spawning in your tank, make sure you have enough supply of fresh saltwater to perform a partial water exchange of 10 to 20 percent of the tank volume. This may not be necessary, but you should be prepared for it. (This is also important when corals spawn in a closed tank system. Experiences of aquarists have shown that the water pollution and decrease of water quality seems to be similar to the clam spawning.)

5) Add an extra portion of activated carbon to the system.

6) Make sure the protein skimmer is working well.

7) Install cotton media to the filter. This filter material has the advantage of having floating particles adhere to it due to its static charge, which can be helpful to free the water of fine floating matter. But to achive this, the water flow should be relatively slow. It is best to let the water pass through the cotton just by gravity and not be forced by the suction or blowing force of a water pump. Take a plastic cup, perforate it ia number of times and locate it on top of the aquarium. Direct the water flow coming from a small pump, a proteing skimmer or some other device in a way that lets it pass through the cup (and filter cotton) by gravity flow and then run back into the aquarium. You can increase the effectiveness of this filtration method by passing the water through an ultraviolet sterilizer prior to the filter cotton.

8) In case the fish start to breathe heavily, do a partial water change of 10 to 20 percent.

9) After the spawning event is over, you should check the condition of all clams in case one of the clams started the spawning event prior to its own death. If the clam has have died and the soft tissues start to decompose overnight, this will lead to a further decrease in water quality and it might give you an undesireable surprise next morning. If you are doubtful about the condition of the clam, and if the incurrent syphon is gaping and it does not show a reaction to touching the syphonal mantle, remove it for a day and put it into a separate tank (with aquarium water and aeration). This does not necessarily mean it will die. I have seen many clams extremely stressed by spawning activity that were “gaping” and showing no mantle retraction when touched. After a day or two everything went back to normal. But, if the tank system is small, it may be better to be on the safe side and set the clam aside for the coming night if you are doubtful about its condition.

[StirCrazy]

Darren there are several mentions of "This can be due to overheating from sunlight when the clams become dry during ebb tide" which would seam to sugest that clams are found in intertidal zones .. contrary to what you posted in your last post.. so it looks like temp changes can be a regualr part of clam life but the danger is when they dry out a little to much (sounds like it is right out of the water to me)

Steve

[DJ88]

Fine Steve you win,

Your experience with clams is far and above mine.

Buy your pigeon medicine for the clams you might by in the future. Enjoy and good luck.

The fact that when this happens clams seem to natrually respond by releasing sperm and gametes means nothing at all.

I am done..

Enjoy your tank.

[StirCrazy]

see, everytime I try figure out what you are getting at you get all pi$$y like this.. which is the reason I usaly don't respond to your posts like this.. yes it does triger spawning.. I have read evey link you posted.. and as far as temp changes there is only one type of clam that is listed as being sensitive to "sudden tempature changes" and that is T. gigas. there was another one whare they didn't mention how it reacted to temp changes but the others were fine unless it is "sudden" now the question is how do you defind "sudden" .

now as for the personal shots at me.. I never claimed to be a expert in clams but I can read just as good as you can. and sence I read everything you posted unless you are holding out some mirical info I think that statment was just made because you have woren yourself out with your essay posts :D ..

about the pidgeon medicen.. I do not say that that is the way to go.. I merialy posted the post in its entirity so I woulden't miss anything.. the fact is that the point of that post was about a bacterial infection that seams to be the general consensus among most of the reefing comunity.. no one claimed you were wrong, they just wanted to see the links you were talking about that sugested that this was all a temp change problem. everyone is looking for answers to this problem..

ahh what the hell mabe we should just go back to the UFO/alien theory.. would be just about as constructive. :rolleyes:

Steve

[ 27 July 2002, 23:42: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]

[Troy F]

This isn't the first year it's gotten warm out in the summer. This is the first time I've ever seen this many clams wiped out. You can do the math.

Is it possible that a new shipment of clams carried a pre-exsisting bacterial pathogen that was able to multiply to critical levels due to the higher temps thus causing the deaths?

[Troy F]

Brad, I'm aware of the increased rates of metabolism and reproduction. At lower temps maybe the host organism is able to fight off the infection. Kind of like eating ice cream on a hot day versus a cold day smile.gif , on a day like today I can leave my bowl of neopolitan ice cream sitting on the desk while I type this but if it were warmer out I wouldn't have the time. :D I'm just throwing some thoughts around.

[Aquattro]

Troy, don't EVER feed ice cream to clams, even on hot days!!! :D

[Aquattro]

Troy, warmer temps will increase the metabolism of bacterium and can speed up the process, but the bacteria still would have grown to the same levels at any (reasonable) temp over time.

[Dale D]

Has everyone who has lost clams recently done so after introducing new ones to their tanks?

My tank got up to 88-90 degrees :eek: during the hot spell. (forgot to hook up the fan :rolleyes: ) I lost a couple of soft corals and 2 sps, but, my clams, are happy as clams. :D

The 2 derasa's have been in the tank for years and the 2 maxima's have been in there for 6-8 months.

I had been thinking of adding a few more, but,I think I'll wait until someone has a better idea of what is going on concerning the recent loses.

[Aquattro]

Dale, as far as I can tell, yes, everyone introduced a new clam. I've asked on RC about their thoughts on heat and so far I got a response from a guy WITH a chiller who lost all his clams. This was after adding a new one. I hope to get more feedback since I just posted the questions. I'll report what I hear back. I would definitely wait on adding another clam. JMO

[BCReefer]

I don’t think we will ever find out what the caused what seems to be a North American problem? If you read what people are saying you can find yes’s and no’s . Well maybe it something really weird that is causing this like the planets are all in line and causing some weird gravity pull.

What would be interesting to know is if there has been any higher than average die off in the wild? Maybe it is a cyclical die off every 50 years, mother natures way of not allowing a over abundance etc etc.

I would really like to find out what is causing the problem but I don’t see anything happening unless we get a marine biologist to spend time and resources to do the investigation properly.

My 0.02 worth.

[stephane]

I just dont know what could have kill your clamm and sorry for you loss guys

I will tel my own experience with the heat. I have 3 clam my older one is about 3 1/2 years old
the second was but 2 years ago with the bisale disk copletly open and the mantle look bad in fack the LFS sell it to me very cheap because he was about to lost it. my most recent one is 2 month old but it is a big one of about 8 inch
they all trive and I dont do notting special to them and I never add any suplement other than Kalkwaser,my temp fluctuate like hell from 80 to 86 and it seem to not afect the clams

Anyway maybe each of you who have lost there clam should publish in one post all you parameter what you add do you use carbon where you buy the clams etc etc........only experience not what you have read or heard of because this mean notting IMO.
I will even share all what I do to keep mine alive

Maybe you will find someting all of you have in commons who kill those clam and it will be more helpfull than argue or agree and disagree ;)

[Aquattro]

Originally posted by stephane:

Maybe you will find someting all of you have in commons who kill those clam and it will be more helpfull than argue or agree and disagree ;) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The predominant factor is the addition of a new clam. People that bought a new clam lost clams; people who didn't, didn't. Very plain to see the common factor....and it wasn't heat. tongue.gif

[stephane]

very interesting where have you buy those clam,everyone?

[Aquattro]

Originally posted by stephane:
very interesting where have you buy those clam,everyone?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Stephane, it doesn't matter where we bought them. The problem ranges from Vancouver to California and heads east from there. It is NOT a local problem.
To reiterate, it is not one retailer selling bad clams. If a retailer has sold a clam that was part of a bad shipment, they are as much a "victim" as those that purchased it.
The greater volume a retailer moves, I suppose could increase the likelihood of a sick clam passing thru their system.
Have you followed the thread on RC to date?

[stephane]

Originally posted by Reef_Raf:
[QBHave you followed the thread on RC to date?[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">nope do you have the link for it?

[Aquattro]

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98953

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102234

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99202&perpage=40&pagenumber=1