Algae Scrubber Disaster

[Jaws]

Everytime I clean my algae scrubber, it crashes my tank. WTF!!!!!! I always have to perform an immediate water change afterwards. I've lost an Achilles, two Bartlett anthias, and a sharknose goby already. I don't get it. It's growing algae like crazy. When I remove it, a small amount of the water thats absorbed into the algae gets squeezed out but if that's enough to crash a tank then these things are more dangerous than good.

[Proteus]

I wonder if you have high nutrients and cleaning the scrubber stops scrubbing temperarily. Forcing a spike in nitrates and phosphates. Hence a waterchange to stabilize

[MarkoD]

How do you clean the scrubber? Is it possible it comes into contact with a chemical or something that could be contaminating the tank

[KevinK]

how old is your scrubber ?

I build one last month with 8 red CREE led's, and are still waiting to have some form of algae forming on my mesh,

I do read somewhere that it is recomended to clean 50% and alternate this, in stead of cleaning the entire mesh at once

[Proteus]

how old is your scrubber ?

I build one last month with 8 red CREE led's, and are still waiting to have some form of algae forming on my mesh,

I do read somewhere that it is recomended to clean 50% and alternate this, in stead of cleaning the entire mesh at once

Might be waiting a while still with red light. 6500k would be optimal

[KevinK]

Might be waiting a while still with red light. 6500k would be optimal

we have to se how mine wil develope, as on reefsanctuary, thy talk about soly the red to be best

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/diy/71426-algae-scrubber-basics.html

[Proteus]

Maybe so. Red though simulates fall sun. Where blue so to speak is spring summer

[intarsiabox]

I could see detritus being build up in the algae and screen and when disturbed to clean it it could be releasing a lot of it back into the tank causing an ammonia spike. Just a thought!

[monocus]

i use red and white led and have great growth.when i clean my screen i lightly scrub it with a nail brush then rinse it with a sprayer,leaving some algae on.i designed my screen to slide off(pvc is not glued and held in place by a pvc cap)so nothing gets knocked into my sump.

[ocean diver]

Ya I remove my screen to clean it therefore nothing falls into the sump, sounds like you have some stuff getting back into the tank when you clean off your algae screen, try removing it to clean it.

[Jaws]

Actually I always remove it to clean it but the contamination happens before I replace the screen. It's definitely happening when I take it offline and remove the screen. I modified a large aquafuge in order to build a waterfall scrubber so that water from my sump gets pumped up to the top of the aquafuge and falls down the screen and empties out the bottom back into my sump. But because it's under my tank in the cabinet, I had to make it tall enough so that the bottom of the scrubber is above the top of my sump so it empties back into the sump. As a result the top of scrubber is only an inch and a half from the ceiling of my stand. When I pull the screen out I have to bend it over the top of the scrubber and it tends to squeeze a bit against the acrylic of the aquafuge and ends up straining a bit of the water that's in the algae back into the sump. Just water though, no algae and barely any water at all. That's why I'm so surprised at how quickly it affects the breathing and overall health of my fish. Within 5 minutes they start swimming into rocks and each other and their coloration looks horrible. Definitely looks like ammonia spiking to me. I just can't understand why its happening and how it's happening so quickly. I do have a large bioload but my parameters have been WAY better since adding the algae scrubber and they should be more reliable than this. It's a mature scrubber too so it's nice thick green hair algae that's growing.

[ocean diver]

umm well could you give us some pictures of the algae scrubber in action and maybe we can figure out what is going on. I take mine out and clean the screen then put it back and turn the pump back on and have never had any issues.

[Borderjumper]

That's weird! I've lost fish 3 times after cleaning the sides of a tank. Just basic mag float scraping... Nothing on the mag float, nothing on my hands.

As you said within MINUTES the fish are stunned, lay on the bottom and are dead almost immediately. The funny thing is it killed the smaller fish almost instantly while a few bigger ones swim around like nothing's happening.

Victoria Killer Algae maybe?:wink: I now clean the glass on my tanks a 1/4 a day I'm so freaked!

[Jaws]

That's weird! I've lost fish 3 times after cleaning the sides of a tank. Just basic mag float scraping... Nothing on the mag float, nothing on my hands.

As you said within MINUTES the fish are stunned, lay on the bottom and are dead almost immediately. The funny thing is it killed the smaller fish almost instantly while a few bigger ones swim around like nothing's happening.

Victoria Killer Algae maybe?:wink: I now clean the glass on my tanks a 1/4 a day I'm so freaked!

Wow! That's crazy and doesn't make any sense at all. I hope it never comes to that!

Here's a pic if that helps. I had to make the scrubber even higher than what it is now too. This was before I started using it too.

[windcoast reefs]

Sorry to hear about yor losses!

I can honestly say I've never had anything like that happen. Could it possibly be that the algae is causing denitrification? Since it stores some nitrates it could store them long enough and act live a substrate does in the ocean, basically breaking it down into ammonia and not fully into nitrogen gas. Then when you disturb it, it releases the ammonia in small amounts. That might explain why your smaller fish die Shelley. And possibly when a large amount of algae is disturbed, like in an algae scrubber, the larger fish die to.

If I'm right, then I would try turning the ball valve off for the drain and taking the algae out for cleaning, then sucking all the extra water out of the algae scrubber and testing it for ammonia.

Just an idea though!

[monocus]

my scrubber is built the same way sitting on my sump with 2" clearance to the top of my stand.i've never had any problem while or after changing.it almost sounds like your o2 is very low in your tank and when you turn the pumps off the o2 is rapidly depleted.you shouldn't be getting a spike in ammonia by changing your algae scrubber which soaks up nitrates and phosphates

[windcoast reefs]

my scrubber is built the same way sitting on my sump with 2" clearance to the top of my stand.i've never had any problem while or after changing.it almost sounds like your o2 is very low in your tank and when you turn the pumps off the o2 is rapidly depleted.you shouldn't be getting a spike in ammonia by changing your algae scrubber which soaks up nitrates and phosphates

Yeah that's possible as well, but what I was saying is that when there is nitrites, they can denitrify down to ammonia.

[reefwars]

my scrubber is built the same way sitting on my sump with 2" clearance to the top of my stand.i've never had any problem while or after changing.it almost sounds like your o2 is very low in your tank and when you turn the pumps off the o2 is rapidly depleted.you shouldn't be getting a spike in ammonia by changing your algae scrubber which soaks up nitrates and phosphates



id have to agree , ive spilled skimmer cups , full ats mats and all inds of junk i didnt mean to and never had the ill effects yur describing.

i can almost bet its the lack of oxygen when the sheet is cleaned that the mature algae gives off that is causing you grief.

have you posted this on algaescrubber.net??

i bet you would get the answer you need off that forumn:)

good luck

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Try adding an air pump and air stones into your display when you clean your scrubber, to help oxygenate the water.

[Jaws]

Wouldn't I see the same effect when I turn the return pump off in order to do a water change? I have the return pump T'd so it feeds the scrubber as well as the main display. When I turn the return pump off to do a water change all the fish seem totally fine.

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[MarkoD]

Is the height of the bubbles in your skimmer effected when you turn off the scrubber?

[Doug]

Back about 10yrs ago when I ran my turf scrubber, {oh ya we did that despite what, nevermind, :lol:}. Anyways, I always scraped my 240sq. in. screen in the fishroom sink. But at times I did have some get in the aquarium for various reasons and, the odd time, I fed some of the algae to my tangs. That would be the good looking pieces and not the slimy stuff.

Although I had some alk. problems back then with my 225g, I never had a problem with fish loss. I dont recall any large difference in my tanks after scraping the screen. Sometime when I slacked in upkeep it had a ton of algae on it and I would remove it right to the screen without problems.

Others I imagine remove a lot of algae from their refugiums without problems to. Just a weird thing to figure out.

[PoonTang]

I would bet its oxygen related. Ammonia just cant form that fast and high nitrates would affect your corals alot sooner than your fish.

[Jaws]

Well I don't have any corals at the moment so I don't think I'll have any inclination about that. Seems weird that oxygen would be affected though if a tank has overflows where water falls into the sump plus all the surface interruption I have from having lots of flow. Unless I'm not understanding something.

[Jaws]

Is the height of the bubbles in your skimmer effected when you turn off the scrubber?

I've never checked this but I don't believe so. I'll check later.

Thanks for all your input guys. I'm still baffled by the whole thing. Is it possible I'm taking too long to clean the screen?

[reefwars]

have you posted tis on algaescrubber.net or on RC in the scrubber forumn to see what they have to say about it , there may be similiar cases??:)

[Myka]

my scrubber is built the same way sitting on my sump with 2" clearance to the top of my stand.i've never had any problem while or after changing.it almost sounds like your o2 is very low in your tank and when you turn the pumps off the o2 is rapidly depleted.you shouldn't be getting a spike in ammonia by changing your algae scrubber which soaks up nitrates and phosphates

Exactly what I was thinking, it does sound like oxygen deprivation. Ammonia won't spike that fast. I'm not really confident that oxygen would deplete so badly in only 5 minutes though. I have a hard time believing your tank is so overstocked that one of several pumps being off causes almost immediate oxygen deprivation.

Do you have a skimmer on this tank? Are the return pump and powerheads still operating while you clean the ATS?

[Jaws]

Yes and the skimmer and the return pump was still running during the most recent crash.

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[Jaws]

have you posted tis on algaescrubber.net or on RC in the scrubber forumn to see what they have to say about it , there may be similiar cases??:)

I'll give that a try. Thanks.

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[Myka]

Yes and the skimmer and the return pump was still running during the most recent crash.

Yeah, O2 deprivation doesn't sound very likely either then. I agree that asking on www.algaescrubber.net (http://www.algaescrubber.net) is probably a good idea at this point!

Please update when you find out the cause of your problems. I'm interested to hear.

[Zoaelite]

Although a very long shot technically it is possible your releasing a "Mini Red Tide" on your tank when you clean the filter. Although the species Karenia brevis is a non-benthic planktonic swimmer excessive concentrations could be massing under the light, when you clean it most of the dinoflagellates could be released back into the tank poisoning the inhabitants.

There are hundreds of algae out there that can produce toxins, you never know with our little experiments :razz:.

My personal vote is for coincidence, look at the fish that died on you. An Achilles tang is the hardest tang to care for out there... period. How long was he established in the tank for prior to the incident? Anthias present a similar situation, although the Bartletts are more hardy than many out there it doesn't change the stats. Your third fish that died was a cleaner wrasse, was he eating frozen prior to the incidents? These fish also have horrible track records in captivity.

Would you please be as kind to post your system stats & maybe a few photos of the scrubber itself?

[MarkoD]

From what I've noticed is that skimmers are very sensitive to sudden changes in water conditions.

So when you turn off the scrubber, watch to see if the skimmer reacts. If nothing happens within a few min, I'd say its coincidence.

[Jaws]

I'll try and get some more pics but I can assure you the fish were in pristine condition. All of them well established for months and eating very well with no signs of being unhealthy whatsoever. And then within 5 minutes, watching them change color from massive stress almost as if their scales were burning, breathing rapidly, eyes bulging out of their heads almost and then all of them slowing down and starting to die right in front of your face. It was horrifying. Everything looked like it would have been dead within an hour if I didn't act fast. I'm convinced it's something being released into the water from the algae. I just can't imagine what it could be that would cause such a fast reaction.

[Aquattro]

So you've removed it, right?? :)

[Jaws]

Until I can get some answers, yes.

[Proteus]

Just buy chance have u put a multi meter on your tank to check for stray current with pumps on and off

[monocus]

what size tank do you have and how many fish.my algae stays on my screen when i remove it for cleaning so i can't see what you would be knocking into your tank.even if you bent your screen around-water is always running down the screen and would be constantly adding anything bad into your tank

[tang daddy]

If it is infact your ATS, then perhaps you could in future have a bucket ready with the water that's returning back into your sump from your ATS go into the bucket for 1/2 a minute. What ever toxins that were released while removing the algae mesh would be caught on the return line in the bucket then also flushing the remaining water and remnants in the ATS and hose out.

Monocus was over when I cleaned my ATS mesh last week, because I run it in a 5g the whole bottom of the tank has algae and detritus settling from the low flow, I use my hand to scrape the bottom leaving loose bits behind, some of these bits make back into the sump and return to display when I turn my ATS back online. I've never had a problem losing fish although my return pump constantly runs, my ATS is fed from the chiller pump which is T'ed off and separate from the system.

[Jaws]

Just buy chance have u put a multi meter on your tank to check for stray current with pumps on and off

I haven't but wouldn't that bother everything when everything is running anyways?

what size tank do you have and how many fish.my algae stays on my screen when i remove it for cleaning so i can't see what you would be knocking into your tank.even if you bent your screen around-water is always running down the screen and would be constantly adding anything bad into your tank

That's exactly what I would assume too. I have a 180G with a 40G sump and I have 22 fish but half of them are smaller schooling fish so they don't have huge appetites.

If it is infact your ATS, then perhaps you could in future have a bucket ready with the water that's returning back into your sump from your ATS go into the bucket for 1/2 a minute. What ever toxins that were released while removing the algae mesh would be caught on the return line in the bucket then also flushing the remaining water and remnants in the ATS and hose out.

Monocus was over when I cleaned my ATS mesh last week, because I run it in a 5g the whole bottom of the tank has algae and detritus settling from the low flow, I use my hand to scrape the bottom leaving loose bits behind, some of these bits make back into the sump and return to display when I turn my ATS back online. I've never had a problem losing fish although my return pump constantly runs, my ATS is fed from the chiller pump which is T'ed off and separate from the system.

That's my plan from now on. To be absolutely sure that any water discharged after the scrubber is taken offline is collected in a bucket. Right now I have it T'd off my return pump but I use a shutoff valve to stop the flow.

I'm pretty scared to even turn it back online again to be honest. I modified an aquafuge with pvc pipe and the mesh screen is the exact screen recommended by algaescrubbers.net (#7 from Michaels) so I can't see it being a problem with the setup releasing toxins into the water. The problem is my bioload is pretty high to not have it working too. I skim with a Bubble King 250, run carbon, biopellets and dose Prodibio Biodigest to keep the parameters in check and so far it's worked great given the number of fish I have. I also do 40G water changes every two weeks.