Ca/Alk/Mag Mess . . . How to fix?

[Enigma]

So, I've gotten myself into a terrible mess with Ca/Alk/Mag.

I started dosing Reef Builder a while ago to bring up my Alk. I had brought my Mag up to high levels in an attempt to battle an algae, but that killed four Mexican Turbo snails so I let the mag fall naturally. My calcium had always tested high: around 520 or so.

As it turns out, my calcium test was completely out to lunch. My new test (which has been verified against a known sample) is telling a very different story.

As it stands right now:
Alk: 8
Ca: 300
Mag: 1250

I bring up my ca, and my Alk drops. I bring up my Alk, and my ca drops. I did just dose magnesium. I have no idea what will happen as a result of that.

How, exactly, do I fix this? I have calcium, magnesium, and reef builder. Should I even bother trying to fix this with three separate products, or is there something else I should be using?

Edit: I have read Myka's guide . . . I'm just feeling like I need some specific direction.

[gregzz4]

I tried to raise my Mg recently to eradicate algae and it threw everything out of balance

I ended up mixing, testing and dosing NSW to appropriate levels, and then did WCs to fix the DT

Maybe lots of reefers are able to manipulate their tank params with spot dosing, but I'll never try to put one of the big 3 out of balance ever again :mrgreen:

BTW, it probably didn't help me when my salt was mixing over 500 Ca :wink:

[gregzz4]

As a side note, if it were me with your readings;
I'd dose Ca @ half the recommended for a couple days, and monitor what happens, until I liked what I see

Your Alk is good, and your Mg is close enough ( you know this )
Just try a gentle attempt to balance the Ca some, but, re-test everything after 12-24 hours before you add another dose

What does your NSW test @ after 24 hours of mixing ???

[Enigma]

Hmm. What ca test are you using? I thought my salt was mixing up crazy high with the API test. It wasn't.

I'm not sure at what point it all went down the toilet.

I agree . . . Messing with one param is a very bad idea! Too bad I had to learn this the hard way. :cry:

I've been pretty lax on waterchanges over the last two months, so I don't want to change a huge amount out all at once. I did do five gallons on Thursday.

[Enigma]

As a side note, if it were me with your readings;
I'd dose Ca @ half the recommended for a couple days, and monitor what happens, until I liked what I see

Your Alk is good, and your Mg is close enough ( you know this )
Just try a gentle attempt to balance the Ca some, but, re-test everything after 12-24 hours before you add another dose

What does your NSW test @ after 24 hours of mixing ???

I haven't tested this new bag of salt, yet.

[Aquattro]

I would do a 50% water change, then adjust Ca up a little, alk will probably be fine, Mg can be adjusted later if needed.

[Enigma]

Ugh. That was not the response I wanted. How about five gallons a day? 55 gallon system.

I'm worried about shocking the livestock.

[FragIt Dan]

If I were to take a guess, the reason why your dKh is dropping when you add Ca is because your inhabitants are finally getting the Ca they need to consume the carbonates. With Ca that low, I pretty much guarantee it is not precipitating out with the dKh, so that suggests your dKh is being consumed along with the Ca as soon as you are adding the Ca. I would increase your Ca and dKh dose until you see your Ca increasing and your dKh steady. Dose one when you wake up, the other when you go to bed. You may be surprised how much of these your tank goes through when it has good levels. I started dosing at 20ml dKh and had it up to 200ml/day before I could get it to stay level above 8.
Dan

[FragIt Dan]

Ugh. That was not the response I wanted. How about five gallons a day? 55 gallon system.

I'm worried about shocking the livestock.

I think you need to balance shocking the livestock with a 50% water change against the stress a 300ppm Ca level is putting on them. I have had my tank almost that low at times and lost corals because of it. +1 on Aquatro's comments... get the Ca up quick.

[gregzz4]

Hmm. What ca test are you using? I thought my salt was mixing up crazy high with the API test. It wasn't.

I use Elos for Alk, Ca and Mg
My kits were close to used up, so I bought new ones and got the same readings
Although the new kits have the same expiry dates as the old ones, the new bucket is better - go figure

My IO salt was giving me such wild mixes that I started a post (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=87784)
It has since calmed down with a new bucket ...
Right now I get NSW;
Alk 11
Ca 460
Mg 1400

The last bucket, even though it was rolled for miles, gave me;
Alk 11
Ca 5-520
Mg 11-1250

I even did 2 to 3 tests and got the same wild readings ... :noidea: what was happening

I agree with Brad, which is where I was going ...
Test your NSW and do some WCs accordingly, but I'd do the WCs after you know what your new salt is testing to and bump anything that's low, then wait a day before using

[gregzz4]

And after posting, I see some good advice from Dan too :wink:

Best if you up one @ a time so you can monitor it alone and it's affects ...

[Aquattro]

I'm worried about shocking the livestock.

How? Clean water? :)

Typical water isn't going to have levels much higher than you have now, and you can then fine tune.

[Lampshade]

Before you do anything, is coral OK? i recently nuked my tank because my alk test said 6dkh and calcium said 420. Be VERY careful with your tests, i took an API and a salifert beside each other with one saying 6-7dkh, the other 17dkh.

Basically what i'm saying is before you do ANY corrective actions, first make sure you actually need the correction, and if you do, get a second opinion. I lost $1500 worth of SPS because i cheaped out on a test kit then trusted it, don't do the same :P.

[Enigma]

How? Clean water? :)

Typical water isn't going to have levels much higher than you have now, and you can then fine tune.

It is a new bag of salt. That makes me a bit nervous, as it could be quite different from the previous bucket.

Before you do anything, is coral OK? i recently nuked my tank because my alk test said 6dkh and calcium said 420. Be VERY careful with your tests, i took an API and a salifert beside each other with one saying 6-7dkh, the other 17dkh.

Basically what i'm saying is before you do ANY corrective actions, first make sure you actually need the correction, and if you do, get a second opinion. I lost $1500 worth of SPS because i cheaped out on a test kit then trusted it, don't do the same :P.

My LPS look wonderful. My SPS aren't perfect, but okay. A couple are a little browned, but growing. I can't tell by looking at anything that the calcium is so out.

It is the API test kit that is being used for Alk. I have the Seachem test for Alk, but I haven't used it yet. I will test side-by-side tomorrow, before I do anything.

[Aquattro]

It is a new bag of salt. That makes me a bit nervous, as it could be quite different from the previous bucket.


Honestly, it's just salt. As long as it's the same brand as what you've been using, you're good. Mix it up for an hour, if it mixes clear, that's my sign that salt is good.
If you're still concerned, do a quick alk test. You don't need to knead the bag, or flip it, or mix for 24 hours. Mix it in RO, let it go clear and hit a close temp to what you need, and change water. It's just a water change.

[MKLKT]

Ugh. That was not the response I wanted. How about five gallons a day? 55 gallon system.

I'm worried about shocking the livestock.

If you did 5 gallon changes separately you'd be getting diminished returns over just doing 50%.

[gregzz4]

Although I agree with most of everything said, I find that my salt does not mix to the proper Sg in an hour or so
I find it takes overnight for the Sg to stabilize, but that could be just me

It's also been pointed out to me that my testing of Ca over 500 from a bucket is not right, and I agree it was way too hi, which is why I started the thread I did

I tried my best to prove it wrong, but it came out that hi after multiple tests

I would like to think that the bucket I was just finishing, and the Elos test kit I was using at the time, were not getting along ..

But, I still get readings of 460 or higher with a brand new bucket of IO and a brand new Elos kit

[gregzz4]

Doing a 50% WC will not harm anything, as long as the new water is good :mrgreen:

[Aquattro]

Although I agree with most of everything said, I find that my salt does not mix to the proper Sg in an hour or so
I find it takes overnight for the Sg to stabilize, but that could be just me


Ya, gonna have to go with "it's just you". I mix mine up an hour ahead of time and it's fine. Once the salt is dissolved to the point that the water is clear, it isn't going to get more dissolved. I do have a large pump mixing it, but I do 50g at a time. In emergencies, I've mixed 5g buckets of new water in 10 minutes. While there's nothing at all wrong waiting 24 hours, it just isn't necessary.

[gregzz4]

Ya, gonna have to go with "it's just you
Probably has something to do with a maxijet 600 in a 20g
I'd love to get NSW ready in an hour or 2, but I've found refractometer readings change as the day/night goes on, so I just wait 'till the next day

Back to Shelley's original question, shall we ???

[reefwars]

My LPS look wonderful. My SPS aren't perfect, but okay. A couple are a little browned, but growing. I can't tell by looking at anything that the calcium is so out.
.


sounds like a typical mixed reef to me, lps doing fine and sps could be doing better:P

i

[Enigma]

Back to Shelley's original question, shall we ???

I'm enjoying the banter. Don't stop on my account. ;)

Seachem Reef Status Carbonate test shows that total alkalinity is 3.2 meq/L (9 dKh).

This test confuses me. I assume that total alkalinity is what the API test tests for. But, there is a second part to this Seachem test: which tests for borate alkalinity. Subtract the borate alkalinity from the total alkalinity to get the carbonate alkalinity.

But, since the API test is so simple a trained monkey could do it, I assume it is total Alk.

[Enigma]

If you did 5 gallon changes separately you'd be getting diminished returns over just doing 50%.

I have rheumatoid arthritis. Even working with 5 gallons of water is painful. I'll take the diminished returns over agony. ;)

[Enigma]

sounds like a typical mixed reef to me, lps doing fine and sps could be doing better:P

i

That sums it up nicely.

The only thing I think when I look at the system is that nutrients are a bit too high, and lighting is a touch to low. Those are the two things that look "off" based on how things are doing.

[reefwars]

That sums it up nicely.

The only thing I think when I look at the system is that nutrients are a bit too high, and lighting is a touch to low. Those are the two things that look "off" based on how things are doing.


what do you classify as high nutrients, i think many coral growers will tell you some nutrients are good.


its the sudden changes that messes with your tank, i could bomb all the food i want into my tank if i train my tank to do so over time,if i do it over night its going to have a negative affect.

you have to know when a problem arises whether or not its right to act immediately or play it with patience....this is something you just learn after a while....i think your scenario now is the patience one.


i would do as mentioned and start with a heavy water change to balance things out a bit.

test your water over the next month without adding or doing anything, its hard to add anyting if you dont know what your using right??

after that month determne whats low , whats been changing , and what is needed.

keep a visual eye on everything and do your reg water changes.

if you really want to get this right your gonna have to write it down and write there affects down.

since your not in any kind of red zone you can afford to experiment slowly with a few things.

keep attacking phosphates and nitrates in a mixed reef are tolerable:)

[gregzz4]

Are you going to try a different brand of kit ???

I'm bantering with Brad through PMs about my hi Ca IO salt, but I'll stick with my Elos kits

Not saying Brad has anything bad to say about IO or Elos, just that he thinks my salt should never be able to read that hi out of the bucket

I just re-tested some NSW 2 times, and my RO, and as far as I can tell, I am still getting 460 out of my IO NSW, but zero out of my RO

[Aquattro]

Are you going to try a different brand of kit ???



Every batch of every box of my RBS is exactly the same. Good salt to try :) Sure, it costs a bit more, but isn't worth the peace of mind? :razz:

[gregzz4]

Wow, $85 for RBS vs $35-40 for IO
I think I'll stick with my buckets that are giving me grief :mrgreen:

[Enigma]

what do you classify as high nutrients, i think many coral growers will tell you some nutrients are good.

All the film algae that I have to clear away on a daily basis and that fact at I have a crazy abundance of feather dusters (which even grow on my glass and silicone) lead me to believe that the nutrients are high. Nitrate is almost always zero, and phosphates test low.

[Enigma]

Are you going to try a different brand of kit ???


For what? I just used Seachem for Alk instead of API. I don't have another calcium test on hand, but the one I now have (Seachem) tests a known sample accurately.

What's RBS salt?

I'm hoping to change to a brand that will cause me less grief. Since the beginning I've had issues with Alk. And, when I finally get them corrected, calcium goes to poo.

[Enigma]

Wow, $85 for RBS vs $35-40 for IO
I think I'll stick with my buckets that are giving me grief :mrgreen:

Wait a minute. Your calcium is testing that high and you're not using Reef Crystals? Just the regular IO? Holy smokes. I find that very surprising.

[Aquattro]

What's RBS salt?

I'm hoping to change to a brand that will cause me less grief. Since the beginning I've had issues with Alk. And, when I finally get them corrected, calcium goes to poo.

Reefers Best. it will give you less grief, but will take more of your money. It's probably the most expensive salt I've seen. J&L sells for about 85 I think. Which is a good price..I pay more than that on the Island..

[Aquattro]

Wait a minute. Your calcium is testing that high and you're not using Reef Crystals? Just the regular IO? Holy smokes. I find that very surprising.

That's what I said!!!!!

[Enigma]

That's what I said!!!!!

I think his test is faulty. I think that stuff is supposed to mix up around 380.

Or, he's getting buckets of regular IO that are actually filled with Reef Crystals.

[LeanneP]

I will vouch for Greg on the high calcium in the IO salt as I have the same problem too. My calcium was measuring over 500 from the IO salt and I was also getting really high alk as well around 17 at Christmas time.
Leanne

[Enigma]

I will vouch for Greg on the high calcium in the IO salt as I have the same problem too. My calcium was measuring over 500 from the IO salt and I was also getting really high alk as well around 17 at Christmas time.
Leanne

:lol: Well, if it happened to two of you . . . I'll cut Greg some slack. ;)

[Aquattro]

:lol: Well, if it happened to two of you . . . I'll cut Greg some slack. ;)

Ok, maybe Greg isn't crazy, but something is still wrong. IO should not read that high in Ca..

[Enigma]

Ok, maybe Greg isn't crazy, but something is still wrong. IO should not read that high in Ca..

I'm pretty sure that IO must have terrible quality control on their salt. Coralgirl and I have both had alkalinity issues with the Reef Crystals: virtually impossible to maintain Alk above 6 without dosing. This was even the case in my NC12, where I was changing 50% of the water per week (and had no Alk suckers in it).

[reefwars]

I'm pretty sure that IO must have terrible quality control on their salt. Coralgirl and I have both had alkalinity issues with the Reef Crystals: virtually impossible to maintain Alk above 6 without dosing. This was even the case in my NC12, where I was changing 50% of the water per week (and had no Alk suckers in it).


im going to do a water tets today not because i need to but because im going to show you guys that less is more.

all ive done in forever is a water change , i only did that because i transfered tanks , i bet my parameters are bang on.

because i dont mess with it, i dont add to change it.


i have over 300 pieces of coral , safe to say if anyones using up stuff it would be me , i honestly dont understand what the big deal is?


ill tell you this though ,trying to compare one persons tanks alkalinity to anothers tank alkalinity is pointless....different salts, water sources, different temps , plus the ability to buffer differently........it will never happen.


what you do to keep your alk up is probably different then what someone else will have to do.


unless your running a sps dominant tank and going for growth of the year award....id forget it...crack a beer and go away for month


that last part is important and the steps may need to be repeated untill the tank is how you like it lol :p

[Coralgurl]

To some extent I will agree with Denny.

I was using sachem salinity salt for over a year and could never get my alk above 6. This affected my ability to keep sps, they never did well for me. Ive switched to reef crystals and have only done 1 test for mag, still at 1250, haven't tested for anything else as my corals look like they are doing better regardless.

When I first set up my 55, I tested all the parameters all the time. After 6 months I stopped as things were fine, corals growing, fish happy, tank is now 1 1/2 years old. The 180, tons of coral loss, lps, sps, but then others were doing great. Tank is only 6 months old, so I stopped messing with it and stopped adding corals. I can't keep up Witt the experienced reefers and have a full tank in months, that is my biggest challenge. Tank envy :lol:

I've switched to reef crystals and halfway through the bucket, things look better but not testing.

The argument over water changes, to do or not, there's points to both sides. I've increased the 180 weekly, the 55 has always been every 2 weeks. Not a strict schedule as summer kinda says there's funner stuff to do.

Shelley I'd say leave the tank alone, do what you can for water changes, but if the corals are happy, growing and good color, then whatever is in the tank is working.

[Enigma]

To some extent I will agree with Denny.

I was using sachem salinity salt for over a year and could never get my alk above 6. This affected my ability to keep sps, they never did well for me. Ive switched to reef crystals and have only done 1 test for mag, still at 1250, haven't tested for anything else as my corals look like they are doing better regardless.

Oops. I thought it was the Reef Crystals that were causing your Alk problem. My bad. :(

[Coralgurl]

No worries :lol: it still had the same effect on the rest of the parameters.

[reefwars]

i think the overall goal is to just not have a tank riddled with algae and be able to fill it and sustain life , the rest is envy like sheena said.

most people buy a calcium test first...why , because its the easiest one for them to remember when at the store, all 3 need to be gotten right from the start or none are anygood to you except to see where you are, you couldnt add anything because you dont know what the others are.

but most people dont do that, they will buy a calcium test kit and add calcium or some other suppliment at the same time. it goes like that for a bit then the person realizes they need the alk test too .

so they test alk.....this is where most people freak out now, so they start changing salts as its the easiest way for a new person to chaange alk(alk is tricky to understand) .

once this keeps up they start reading that there relationships between the 3 and start back tracking over things theyve already added.....


you can see this is getting a bit crowded and confusing on whats going in and out right??


my opionion is if your goal is for a nice reef , stick to the basic instructions, but if your really want to do the chemistry part you need to log and journal everything, you have to eliminate yourself from alot of the variables, so get good testers, good dosers and good equipment all around, its hard to learn something when the equipment you use is not accurrate.

[rhody605]

A log is a very useful tool. No everyone has a perfect memory. And it will show trends or mistakes.

[Enigma]

I do log everything. It helps a lot. :) Well, I don't log when I feed. That's just habit by now.

[gregzz4]

I will vouch for Greg on the high calcium in the IO salt as I have the same problem too. My calcium was measuring over 500 from the IO salt and I was also getting really high alk as well around 17 at Christmas time.
Leanne
I'm on my second set of the big 3 test kits with the same results
I've seen lots on the web and a few here mention the IO was out of whack going back as far as X-mas

[gregzz4]

:lol: Well, if it happened to two of you . . . I'll cut Greg some slack. ;)

Ok, maybe Greg isn't crazy, but something is still wrong. IO should not read that high in Ca..
:smile:
I wish my tests were off
Hopefully the next bucket will be better and, if not, I'll be buying some other test kits for reference

[Enigma]

The Seachem test kits have a reference sample in them. Maybe someone close to you has some? If not, I could try mailing you some: if I can figure out how best to package it.

[gregzz4]

The Seachem test kits have a reference sample in them. Maybe someone close to you has some? If not, I could try mailing you some: if I can figure out how best to package it.
Thanks for the offer :smile:
I'll buy the Seachem kits if my next bucket is out of whack and then will be sending the Elos kits off for analysis

[daplatapus]

You guys had me totally curious as I've never tested my NSW. Checked it this afternoon and my Ca was 330 with an Elos kit.

[Aquattro]

You guys had me totally curious as I've never tested my NSW. Checked it this afternoon and my Ca was 330 with an Elos kit.

More helpful if you mention what salt :razz:

[daplatapus]

More helpful if you mention what salt :razz:

LOL, Sorry, I thought the conversation was about the regular IO salt. :)

[Aquattro]

LOL, Sorry, I thought the conversation was about the regular IO salt. :)

Fair enough :) 330 is more in line with what I would expect from IO..

[gregzz4]

Sorry Shelley for all the Hijacking

I've just mixed some IO NSW and will test it tomorrow
I'll grab a couple Seachem kits while I'm out to compare to my Elos ones
I'm not going to waste money on the Seachem Mg kit though ... at least not at this point :wink:
Even though it's not the point of your thread, I'll report here for anyone who's curious

So, I know it hurts you to do big ones but, are you going to do a WC to get your tank back inline ?

[Enigma]

No worries about hijacking. It is all relevant.

I got a five gallon water change done today, and I've got another one prepped for tomorrow. The boys (hubby and #1 son) will be around tomorrow, so they can lug the water up the stairs for me. :) Trying to get the water upstairs is pure evil on my knees.

I'm just about to go test ca/Alk/mag.

[Enigma]

Ca 300/alk 9.52/mag 1375

I am NOT going nuts! This system tested 350 for calcium 10 hours ago. I must have a calcium sink. I have some really good growers in here, but the growth from my plating monti is really significant. My Hollywood stunner and green birdsnest are two other fast growers.

Could my system really be using up that much calcium in a few hours?

I just tested against the known sample again. The test checks out.

[Aquattro]

Could my system really be using up that much calcium in a few hours?



No. My system doesn't even use that in 10 hours, and I've got a lot of coral growth.

[reefwars]

Ca 300/alk 9.52/mag 1375

I am NOT going nuts! This system tested 350 for calcium 10 hours ago. I must have a calcium sink. I have some really good growers in here, but the growth from my plating monti is really significant. My Hollywood stunner and green birdsnest are two other fast growers.

Could my system really be using up that much calcium in a few hours?

I just tested against the known sample again. The test checks out.


im also going to say no , so bring a water sample over here and lets test it against mine. bring your test kit and we will use both yors and mine if you like:)

[FragIt Dan]

I think you should be consuming 2.8 degrees dKh for every 20ppm of Ca. I don't know what is going on with your Ca, but something doesn't add up. I am going through about 20grams anhydrous CaCl or about 20-30 ppm Ca in a heavily coral loaded 90G tank (twv of ~100G) per day. 50ppm in 10 hrs and with levels that low... IMO neither your corals nor precipitating Ca would account for that. Perhaps you could calculate how much you expect your Ca to raise based on how much Ca you are adding and your tank volume. You can calculate how much it should go down based on your dKh consumption. Test results that vary from this might need to be double checked?

[Aquattro]

Quick question for those with really high levels of Ca...what are you using to test salinity? Is it accurate?
My Ca was up around 500 in an old tank for a long time. I was using a swing arm hydrometer that went south and my salt was at 1.036 for months. Ca was way high....just a thought...

[Aquattro]

Tested my Ca for fun, 450ppm. I can live with that..

[Enigma]

Tested my Ca for fun, 450ppm. I can live with that..

Show off.

Edit: I'm picking up the Elos test after work . . . AND the hanna checker. This is going to drive me nuts.

[Aquattro]

i expected a value near there, i run a good sized Ca Reactor. And the Reefers Best salt is about 420 out of the box.

[Enigma]

That's what I consider about perfect.

I'm going to get two tests that agree . . . and if I don't I'm going to Denny's to compare with his test (which is Elos).

[Aquattro]

That's what I consider about perfect.



It's a bit high, I'd rather it was 420ish, but it's acceptable.

[gregzz4]

This may not belong in Shelley's post, but ...
And, this is a hella long post :wink:

I currently use IO Sea Salt, and batch # 11257 is being tested here

OK, I thoroughly hate testing :twised:

I just finished 3-1/2 hours of water testing my NSW, DT and RO
I don't want to think about how much test kit money I have just thrown away .....
Plus, after dinner, I still have to store some of this water for J&L to test and do a DT WC

Here's my testing info;

Each time I fouled a test with a partial drop I started over
I lost about 2 Alk, 7 Ca and 3 Mg tests, give or take ...
Plus, each time I got a reading that was outside the norm, I tested again

With the Elos kits I went a step farther than they suggest and rinsed the syringes with test water before taking samples

When adding the powder in the Elos kits, they state it's OK if not all the powder dissolves
With this in mind, I tested once with only shaking the vial after adding the powder, and tested again with the cap on the vial and shook vigorously
There was no measured difference between using/not using the vial cap
To confirm this, I tested the Ca in my NSW 5 times and all readings came in within 10ppt of each other

For reference, I bought both the Seachem Marine pH/Alk and the Seachem Reef Status Ca kits
I will never buy these again and I'm going to return these 2 kits as they are tedious and, IMO, unreliable
I don't want to turn this into a review, but I will say that I use Seachem NH3, NO2 and NO3 and find them easy and reliable
For Alk, Ca and Mg I will stick with Elos

Quick question for those with really high levels of Ca...what are you using to test salinity? Is it accurate?
My Ca was up around 500 in an old tank for a long time. I was using a swing arm hydrometer that went south and my salt was at 1.036 for months. Ca was way high....just a thought...

Brad, it's funny you brought this up when you did as I did some more reading last night and checked my refractometer before bedtime;
After 45 secs it gave me 35ppt with the solution

Today, after talking with Jeff @ J&L, I floated the solution in the DT for 1/2hr and again my refractometer is 35ppt with the cal solution

It's safe to assume my tests are @ 1.025, although I only use a BRS ATO refractometer. But, it has been checked against J&L's current one, so it has to be 'close enough'

On to the test results :smile:

19g of NSW @ 79F and 1.025 Sg
Elos;
- Alk 11
- Ca 490, 500, 500
- Mg 1300
Seachem;
- Alk 11
- Ca 475, 475

DT water @ 79F and 1.025 Sg
Elos;
- Alk 7
- Ca 430, 440, 430
- Mg 1550, 1550

RO water @ 72F
Elos; big 3 all test to Zero

You will note my DT water is hi in Mg. That is due to me dosing Mg to eradicate algae
I am still waiting for the Mg to drop
After the effects of my last round of dosing Mg I will not be doing it again anytime soon as it threw the other 2 out of whack

I am now only performing WCs to keep my tank in check and have dosed Alk ONCE ONLY to bring it back to above 7

I feel this info is enough to prove my Instant Ocean Sea Salt is OUT OF WHACK
Go ahead and call me crazy now, will ya :twised:

Getting back to Shelley's original post ....

Check your source water and NSW as well
Do a big WC ( as Brad suggested ), test, test again, and just watch what happens

It took me over a month for my params to come back in to check after I dosed Mg :rolleyes:

[gregzz4]

I'm taking 2 cups of my newest NSW and 2 cups of raw salt to J&L tomorrow for testing

[Aquattro]

I currently use IO Sea Salt, and batch # 11257 is being tested here



I'm starting to think there's something wrong with your salt :razz:

My LFS guy was off today, so I wasn't able to get any to test.

[gregzz4]

I'm starting to think there's something wrong with your salt :razz:
At least we're now talking about my Salt being off instead of it being either;

1 - Greg's kits are out of whack
2 - Greg's out of whack

:mrgreen:

Although, I'll admit I'm out of whack sometimes :silly:

As I said, I'll report my findings

[Enigma]

Very interesting, Greg.

While the Seachem Reef Status tests are a production (you should see the magnesium test :rolleyes:), I'm curious as to why you feel the Reef Status calcium test is unreliable. It gave you the exact same results twice. Did you do additional tests that did not return similar values? Or, did you foul a number of the test?

I'm impressed with your dedication to this! And yes, your salt is whacked (for IO). It is testing much more like Reef Crystals. And, in that case, I'm wondering why the heck I'm paying for Reef Crystals when the plain IO is returning results like that.

I wasn't able to pick up the Hanna Checker and the Elos Calcium test last night, as I narrowly missed Dave @ Concept. I'll be picking those up tonight. And, I will endeavour to get some numbers that corroborate. Once I have numbers I trust, I'll have a better idea how to approach this.

Did another 10% wc last night . . . and my euphyllia are ****ed! I'll be spying on them with the ip cam today. They all shrunk right up into their skeletons.

[Skimmerking]

I don't know that if it's been stated, IMO I have seen in the pass that when you have CAL, ALk, MAG
the biggest thing is ALK when you mess with that you are opening up a huge can of worms like when Moses parted the RED sea. **** hit the fan. lol
ok back on track.:razz: having high CAl isnt so bad other then its going to reek havoc on your pumps for deposits of Calcuim. Magnesium It seems it taks for ever to raise if you are doing it slowly. look at Dez he went through 5 gals of MAG flakes to get his tank up to normal par levels. that was for 1 month.

So slowly bring your ALk up and the rest will take care of its self with some help from you.

I hope this makes sense.

I use a KAlk reactor for keeping my levels in check however, it wont bring up MAgnesium only CAL and ALK, and then you only have to so MAG top up and if you are doing water changes consistently then your mag should be ok.

[Enigma]

My calcium really is that low :(

Just did the tests on the display.

ELOS: 310
Seachem: 300
Hanna Checker: 365 (I may have messed that one up . . . Don't see how it could be that out)

At least nothing is dying, and I know that I really do have a problem.

Will test the new salt water when I get back from buying a better calcium additive to bring it up a bit.

[gregzz4]

I'm curious as to why you feel the Reef Status calcium test is unreliable. It gave you the exact same results twice. Did you do additional tests that did not return similar values? Or, did you foul a number of the test?
I found the Seachem Reef Ca kit to be unreliable as the testing proceedure uses such a diluted sample that I couldn't make out the colors well enough, and the lines on the reagent syringe are so dammed small that I had trouble reading how much solution I had used. Why can't they make a kit with dripper-style dispensing bottles ???
It did give me the same results 2 times and yes I fouled numerous tests as it was my first time using this style kit
I had Jeff @ J&L try using the Seachem Alk kit and he showed me how to make it work better, although I still find it less user friendly than a dripper bottle is

I am making up some more NSW from the same bucket and will re-test with the Elos and Seachem kits

Now, here's something interesting;

I took in a sample of my NSW and my DT water to J&L
While Andy got the same KH results as I did, the Ca tests were nowhere near the same
We each used both their kit and mine, and we tested both of my water samples
I tested 470 Ca and Andy tested 380-420
It looks like it's coming down to user technique

I've contacted Elos as there is a pictogram in the packaging that shows the reagent bottles being dripped from an angle of approx 45 degrees

I was testing my Ca with the bottles held at an angle for 2 reasons;
One is sometimes the bottle may keep dripping if held vertically and;
Two was because of the images on the card

This may explain why my results are so high as I'm not dispensing the same amount per drop as Andy is when the bottles are held completely vertical

I've PMd LeanneP to ask her what test kits she is using and her testing methods, as well as to ask her if she'd be willling to re-test if she is using Elos kits

I felt very vindicated last night after all my tests
Now I'm feeling kinda sheepish :redface:

[gregzz4]

Here's Elos' response ...

Thanks for using our products and contacting us. The angle on the illustrated pamphlet is ok but i know what you are describing that it is possible to "chop the drops", if you hold at an angle. The bottles used in the Elos kits are metered drops so it is best to get close to vertical or vertical for best results. Hope this helps and let me know if you have any other questions.
　
　
Jesse S.
(office) 925.600.8020
(toll free)877.373.0105
(fax) 925.600.8917
jesse@elosusa.com
www.elosusa.com (http://www.elosusa.com)
www.facebook.com/elosusa (http://www.facebook.com/elosusa)
　

[gregzz4]

Did another 10% wc last night . . . and my euphyllia are ****ed! I'll be spying on them with the ip cam today. They all shrunk right up into their skeletons.
That's something I've not experienced yet
Was your new water mixed well and the same temp etc etc ??

Did you do anything else at the same time ?

I'm becoming so anal that I won't do 2 things at the same time anymore

[Aquattro]

It looks like it's coming down to user technique


:razz:

[gregzz4]

:razz:
Ya ya, har har har, and "I told you so" :lol:

I'll let you know what I get from the mixed water after I test it tomorrow

[Enigma]

Here's Elos' response ...

Thanks for using our products and contacting us. The angle on the illustrated pamphlet is ok but i know what you are describing that it is possible to "chop the drops", if you hold at an angle. The bottles used in the Elos kits are metered drops so it is best to get close to vertical or vertical for best results. Hope this helps and let me know if you have any other questions.
　
　
Jesse S.
(office) 925.600.8020
(toll free)877.373.0105
(fax) 925.600.8917
jesse@elosusa.com
www.elosusa.com (http://www.elosusa.com)
www.facebook.com/elosusa (http://www.facebook.com/elosusa)
　

There's your vindication right there. I like how she won't say that the diagrams are wrong, but she instructed you to keep them as verticle as possible. :rolleyes:

That's something I've not experienced yet
Was your new water mixed well and the same temp etc etc ??

Did you do anything else at the same time ?

I'm becoming so anal that I won't do 2 things at the same time anymore

I did nothing else at the same time. If they were ticked off yesterday, they're super ticked tonight! They opened during the day just fine, so hopefully this will pass.

I picked up Aquavitro Calicification tonight. It claims that one of the types of calcium in it (gluconate-complexed calcium) prevents calcium precipitation and alkalinity depletion. Oh, and it claims it won't effect pH. We'll see. No snow storm in my tank, so hopefully that's a good sign.

I split the difference between the lower and upper recommended dosages, which should raise it by about 20 ppm. I showed remarkable restraint. And, I purchased the little bottle: so I'd feel as if I had to make it last. I really wanted the big one.

[gregzz4]

I did nothing else at the same time. If they were ticked off yesterday, they're super ticked tonight! They opened during the day just fine, so hopefully this will pass.
Are you saying they're closed right now ??

Maybe someone is crawling on them ...

Wow, we sure butchered your post :razz:
Edit: err, meant to say thread

[Enigma]

Are you saying they're closed right now ??

Maybe someone is crawling on them ...

Wow, we sure butchered your post :razz:

The fact that they're closed could be totally relevant to the subject matter. ;) They're calcium sucking corals in a system with very limited calcium. Closed . . . More like locked up tight.

[Enigma]

I also picked up Aquavitro 8.4, in the event Alk crashes (this will raise pH and Alk). According to the Calcificatin bottle, 8.4 can be dosed within minutes of calcification. Curious. I'd like to try it to see what happens, but that is kind of scary.

[jorjef]

You guys are all loonie!! Change salt and hope for the best.

[Aquattro]

You guys are all loonie!!.

lol, I agree! This whole thing is making my head spin :razz:

[FragIt Dan]

I also picked up Aquavitro 8.4, in the event Alk crashes (this will raise pH and Alk). According to the Calcificatin bottle, 8.4 can be dosed within minutes of calcification. Curious. I'd like to try it to see what happens, but that is kind of scary.

Hah, I bet it's just pure bicarbonate (baking soda) with no carbonate. This would pH balance it a bit lower and prevent the Ca from precipitating out. I am curious if, when you add it, do you get the typical milky response in the water as when you add the normal Alk supplement? My theory is that you don't. I am guessing you just bought the same as Arm and Hammer from a grocery store, but that's just a guess. Incidentally, that is what I dose for Alk, with a bit of Carbonate to pH balance it a bit the other way.
Dan

[gregzz4]

My NSW is just over 1 hour old

79F
1.025 Sg
11 Alk
410 Ca

I'll retest it tomorrow before I use it and give another report

[gregzz4]

You guys are all loonie!! Change salt and hope for the best.
I agree now but ...

When I was getting a reading from my tank of 520 Ca I couldn't do a WC when the NSW was nearly the same

Now do you see why I am so into this thread ?

[gregzz4]

lol, I agree! This whole thing is making my head spin :razz:
You too huh ?
Imagine how I've felt these last 2 months, nevermind how much money I've wasted on kits :surprise:

[Aquattro]

My NSW is just over 1 hour old

79F
1.025 Sg
11 Alk
410 Ca

I'll retest it tomorrow before I use it and give another report

Still not right for IO....you're holding that bottle right upside down, right? :)

[jorjef]

I agree now but ...

When I was getting a reading from my tank of 520 Ca I couldn't do a WC when the NSW was nearly the same

Now do you see why I am so into this thread ?

You say you don't want to spend the extra on a quality salt and rather go cuckoo trying to solve the balance. Well you might think differently when your tank is packed with corals and issues start popping up.. To pay an extra 20,30,40 bucks for a pail of salt is the price of one measly coral. But you risk loosing many more than one with salt problems

IO is fine for fish only tanks but not for reef IMO.

[Aquattro]

IO is fine for fish only tanks but not for reef IMO.

My LFS won't even sell me IO :) In all fairness, I think if you've got a good handle on dosing or (successfully) run a Ca reactor, IO is fine. I couldn't use it without upping values for new water, but lots of people do raise values and do all this mucking around. For me, peace of mind is worth the 6 bucks more a week I pay for my salt..but like you said, for me to replace my SPS collection would cost me 10k, so I'm just not interested in skimping on salt.

[gregzz4]

You say you don't want to spend the extra on a quality salt and rather go cuckoo trying to solve the balance. Well you might think differently when your tank is packed with corals and issues start popping up.. To pay an extra 20,30,40 bucks for a pail of salt is the price of one measly coral.

IO is fine for fish only tanks but not for reef IMO.
Very good points that I am getting clear as a smack to the face now ...
Brad eluded to the same idea earlier
You're gonna make me eat my words, aren't ya ? :smile:

When I was testing IO NSW with higher readings, I thought it would be enough to replenish my DT through WCs
Then these out of whack readings crammed a stick in my spokes ...
I am considering returning the newest unopened bucket of IO I have and getting into something like the IO Reef Crystals

FYI, I hadn't planned on packing so much money into it this quickly so I bought the 'economy' salt
I'll blame tang daddy and Bblinks for getting me into SPS right away :lol:

Don't get me wrong though as we are loving all the color and, so far, I haven't killed anything http://www.420magazine.com/forums/images/smilies/knock-on-wood.gif

[jorjef]

...

[gregzz4]

Still not right for IO....you're holding that bottle right upside down, right? :)
I am holding the bottles totally vertical and making sure I get a solid 'one' drip

As I said earlier, I'll re-test tomorrow before I use it and report whatever readings I find

So much for user technique ...
I'm starting to feel like it's 'loser' technique :surprise:

[jorjef]

My LFS won't even sell me IO :) In all fairness, I think if you've got a good handle on dosing or (successfully) run a Ca reactor, IO is fine. I couldn't use it without upping values for new water, but lots of people do raise values and do all this mucking around. For me, peace of mind is worth the 6 bucks more a week I pay for my salt..but like you said, for me to replace my SPS collection would cost me 10k, so I'm just not interested in skimping on salt.


Yes for those that want or have the skill to play chemist IO will work. I'm with you, I'm not much for mucking at this point in the game

[gregzz4]

My LFS won't even sell me IO :) In all fairness, I think if you've got a good handle on dosing or (successfully) run a Ca reactor, IO is fine. I couldn't use it without upping values for new water, but lots of people do raise values and do all this mucking around. For me, peace of mind is worth the 6 bucks more a week I pay for my salt..but like you said, for me to replace my SPS collection would cost me 10k, so I'm just not interested in skimping on salt.
I just had to wrap my head around spending potentially twice as much on salt
I know where this is going as I see I may not have to dose right now, so less cost there, and less time etc
Maybe I'll be able to spend more time gawking the tank instead of the vials :lol:

It'll be a new learning curve for me with new salt ... getting used to the tank's params again

[gregzz4]

So Shelley ..........

Did we ever help/answer your original question ? :lol:

[Aquattro]

It'll be a new learning curve for me with new salt ... getting used to the tank's params again

honestly, here's my take. I always enjoy your posts because they're so OCD. Your setup is nicer now that mine ever was new. My plumbing is "functional", almost :) I've watched you fight with the dry rock algae, the Ca monsters, the alk thief...it's all very entertaining. But really, do you get to sit and watch your tank at all? The stress I've read about the last few days would make me sell my tank. Reminds me of the pH meter episode of 2004...
Try this for 6 months. buy the RBS salt. Mix it to 1.026 and the proper temp, and change 25g every other week. Buy a case of beer or a bottle of your favorite beverage, pull up a chair, and just chill in front of the tank for a while. Enjoy the drink. Let the sounds put you to sleep.
Do not test stuff. Lock your kits away and just enjoy the tank. Add a coral here or there. Watch the snails crawl around. Do.Not.Test. This is supposed to be relaxing....

[jorjef]

honestly, here's my take. I always enjoy your posts because they're so OCD. Your setup is nicer now that mine ever was new. My plumbing is "functional", almost :) I've watched you fight with the dry rock algae, the Ca monsters, the alk thief...it's all very entertaining. But really, do you get to sit and watch your tank at all? The stress I've read about the last few days would make me sell my tank. Reminds me of the pH meter episode of 2004...
Try this for 6 months. buy the RBS salt. Mix it to 1.026 and the proper temp, and change 25g every other week. Buy a case of beer or a bottle of your favorite beverage, pull up a chair, and just chill in front of the tank for a while. Enjoy the drink. Let the sounds put you to sleep.
Do not test stuff. Lock your kits away and just enjoy the tank. Add a coral here or there. Watch the snails crawl around. Do.Not.Test. This is supposed to be relaxing....


THAT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN LOL (sorry Greg) I agree one billion percent. Let the tank do it's thing and sit back and enjoy...

[gregzz4]

honestly, here's my take. I always enjoy your posts because they're so OCD. Your setup is nicer now that mine ever was new. My plumbing is "functional", almost :) I've watched you fight with the dry rock algae, the Ca monsters, the alk thief...it's all very entertaining. But really, do you get to sit and watch your tank at all? The stress I've read about the last few days would make me sell my tank. Reminds me of the pH meter episode of 2004...
Try this for 6 months. buy the RBS salt. Mix it to 1.026 and the proper temp, and change 25g every other week. Buy a case of beer or a bottle of your favorite beverage, pull up a chair, and just chill in front of the tank for a while. Enjoy the drink. Let the sounds put you to sleep.
Do not test stuff. Lock your kits away and just enjoy the tank. Add a coral here or there. Watch the snails crawl around. Do.Not.Test. This is supposed to be relaxing....

THAT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN LOL (sorry Greg) I agree one billion percent. Let the tank do it's thing and sit back and enjoy...
Thanks guys, and for the acknowledgment Brad that you've been following and remembering all my trials and tribulations :smile:
It's always nice to have some input that tells me to JUST SLOW DOWN and try enjoy it :wink:

I'm going to go with Brad's and jorjef's advice for a different kind of salt
The only thing I will do is test once every new bucket and I will test my tank once in awhile to see that there is some semblance of balance going on :mrgreen:

And you're right about enjoying it ..

I've been spending far too much time messing around and nowhere near enough just staring ...

[Aquattro]

I will test my tank once in awhile to see that there is some semblance of balance going on :mrgreen:


Just can't help yourself, can you? :razz: I'm serious, leave it alone. I bought my Ca kit on Boxing day. I did a test the next day and the second one the other night just cause you got me curious. It's fine. RBS (or Reef Crystals) has enough in it that regular 30% water changes will top everything off. you don't have the bioload yet to worry about consumption. So test the new bucket or box, fine, you bought a kit, you want to use it, I get that. But if the salt is fine out of the box (assuming you tested it right), then it's fine. Leave it. Don't test, don't add any stoopid additives. Leave it alone.

[gregzz4]

Just can't help yourself, can you? :razz: I'm serious, leave it alone. I bought my Ca kit on Boxing day. I did a test the next day and the second one the other night just cause you got me curious. It's fine. RBS (or Reef Crystals) has enough in it that regular 30% water changes will top everything off. you don't have the bioload yet to worry about consumption. So test the new bucket or box, fine, you bought a kit, you want to use it, I get that. But if the salt is fine out of the box (assuming you tested it right), then it's fine. Leave it. Don't test, don't add any stoopid additives. Leave it alone.
I agree with everything you've said

You said "Just can't help yourself, can you ?"

It's not a matter of wanting to use the kit just 'cause I have it
I don't want to test anymore. I am officially tired of it :smile:
I think you took what I said a bit wrong
I will only test my tank once in awhile, just to see what is going on and I will test my new bucket once, just to see what I am getting

Maybe this is what you were meaning, 'cause I do have to see what is going on before I ignore it ...

I will test the new kind of salt one time, test my DT to see how it is affecting my params, and then ignore it :wink:

[Aquattro]

I think you took what I said a bit wrong


nah, just buggin' ya :) If you want to test, fine. Just don't touch anything after. It's going to take a few water changes to balance out.

[gregzz4]

And, for the record, I haven't been dosing
I don't like to play with #s

I only dosed Mg for a bit to try to kill some algae, and that went sideways
I have dosed Alk only twice since May as it was below 7

I haven't been dosing to play with #s and will not be dosing anytime soon

[Aquattro]

And, for the record, I haven't been dosing
I don't like to play with #s

I only dosed Mg for a bit to try to kill some algae, and that went sideways
I have dosed Alk only twice since May as it was below 7

I haven't been dosing to play with #s and will not be dosing anytime soon

Oh, right. That's Shelley. You're the sideways bottle tester. Got it -lol

But all this is applicable to both of you, and anyone else overwhelmed with all the math and the measuring and stuff. Just back it up a bit and relax!!

[gregzz4]

Oh, right. That's Shelley. You're the sideways bottle tester. Got it -lol
OMG, I think I just peed a bit :mrgreen:

And another 'for the record' ...
I used to test with the bottles slanted, but I always drink with the bottle facing the stars :drinking:

[Skimmerking]

I used Instant Ocena since 2002 and this year I bought 3 pails of Reef Cystals and its nice not much dosing going on for me and i have a RSM 250 lps and SPS and i barely test. i have a test kit from 2009 its in the box still.
I dont test for PH if its 7.8 or 7.9 then so be it. I drip kalk from my Barr Aquatics Stirrer its always going at a drip rate of 1 drip evey 4-6 seconds that is how much i evaporate. NOT MUCH. however i try to do 15 gallons every week or 10 gal. if I dont i dont sweat it.

Alk i test maybe 1x every 2 months cal ya whatever.:mrgreen:

[Enigma]

I use a KAlk reactor for keeping my levels in check however, it wont bring up MAgnesium only CAL and ALK, and then you only have to so MAG top up and if you are doing water changes consistently then your mag should be ok.

Once I get everything fixed, and see how the system responds through normal water changes, I may go with a kalk reactor. I have been researching them a bit. But, since I messed things up so badly as a result of having no idea as to what my calcium really was, I'm clueless as to how the levels will behave under "normal" conditions.

So Shelley ..........

Did we ever help/answer your original question ? :lol:

Heck no! I just figured out 100% for sure that I really, legitimately, have a calcium problem. :lol:

[Enigma]

Hah, I bet it's just pure bicarbonate (baking soda) with no carbonate. This would pH balance it a bit lower and prevent the Ca from precipitating out. I am curious if, when you add it, do you get the typical milky response in the water as when you add the normal Alk supplement? My theory is that you don't. I am guessing you just bought the same as Arm and Hammer from a grocery store, but that's just a guess. Incidentally, that is what I dose for Alk, with a bit of Carbonate to pH balance it a bit the other way.
Dan

I don't know what it is.

http://www.aquavitro.com/products/eightfour.html

It appears very vague. A "balanced blend of bicarbonate and carbonate salts."

I haven't used it yet, so I have no idea how it will behave. I'm hoping I don't need it.

If I just paid $11 for baking soda imma gonna be annoyed.