Concerning the new Buy/Sell posting format

[gregzz4]

Hey all,

I've not been a member here very long, but I'm sure I love this website as much as the next member.
When policies are made, I'm sure they are introduced either with everyone's best interests in mind, or to protect either the vendors/sponsors, the members, or the website itself.

This new posting format that has us selecting a prefix is an issue for me.
I have nothing against using it, but find it has made it harder to read through postings.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that has noticed this.

When I select 'New Posts', many look as if I've already read them, due to this new setup.
This not only makes it harder to scan through threads I've read, but the length of the titles is counter-productive, at least from a 'scan through' prospective.

I could speculate, and say this new plan is the result of complaints from sponsors, due to the volume of private sales, but that's just my personal thought.
I'm sure there is a valid reason as the 'site' is a business.

I'm only asking for your opinion on this new format and, if you don't like it, speak up.

I'm sure Titus has a solid reason for implementing this new format, but there must be a better, more member-friendly way to do so.

[Aquattro]

Opinions? My OCD has gone into overdrive :razz:

[gregzz4]

Glad to hear I'm not alone ....

[waynemah]

The concept is understandable, but the layout is confusing... Especially with some of them being linked and some not (I think it looks better unlinked). But I'm also fearful for my account... So, I'll stop there. :biggrin:

[gregzz4]

The concept is understandable, but the layout is confusing... Especially with some of them being linked and some not (I think it looks better unlinked). But I'm also fearful for my account... So, I'll stop there. :biggrin:
Don't be afraid to say your piece ...
Your voice is necessary
You're not going to get banned for having a say
After all, us members are what drive this site ...

Sure, the sponsors pay for it, but we members are what keep the sponsors 'sponsoring' ( if that word isn't in Websters, it should be :smile: )

Just politely say what you want to say ....

[gregzz4]

I'm not looking for a revolt here, people

If you don't like it, here's your chance to say so

If you're OK with it, then let it go

[waynemah]

Don't be afraid to say your piece ...
You're not going to get banned for having a say
After all, us members are what drive this site ...

Sure, the sponsors pay for it, but we members are what keep the sponsors 'sponsoring' ( if that word isn't in Websters, it should be :smile: )

Just politely say what you want to say ....

Sure, why not...

I've spent hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars at most of the sponsors on this site. I'm sure other members are in the same boat. In exchange for supporting these vendors, it would be nice to have a clean worry free buy/sell page where I can sell off unwanted products/frags without having the worry of breaking rules and following confusing grey area regulations. As you said, it's us members who drive this site... It seems as though this concept was lost in the implementation. /rant

I would be happy if the rules were clearly displayed on the main page of the buy/sell section and use this functionality for a clearer understanding of what the person is trying to do with their post. Having a drop down for "For Sale", "Group Buy", "Want to buy" without a link to rules would be clean and useful.

[Northernseacorals]

Sure, why not...

I've spent hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars at most of the sponsors on this site. I'm sure other members are in the same boat. In exchange for supporting these vendors, it would be nice to have a clean worry free buy/sell page where I can sell off unwanted products/frags without having the worry of breaking rules and following confusing grey area regulations. As you said, it's us members who drive this site... It seems as though this concept was lost in the implementation. /rant

I would be happy if the rules were clearly displayed on the main page of the buy/sell section and use this functionality for a clearer understanding of what the person is trying to do with their post. Having a drop down for "For Sale", "Group Buy", "Want to buy" without a link to rules would be clean and useful.

+ ∞

[MKLKT]

It's overly wordy. I really don't need a EULA to reef keep. If there was just FS, FT, FF, LF, etc. That'd be perfect, otherwise I have to brush up on my legalese every time I post, which means I'll likely not bother.

[FishyFishy!]

Yup, I find the new format extremely annoying. Just harder to read and seperate through posts (The opposite of what it is intended to do). And the wording is kinda funny too (eg. "one off sale of personal items"). Sounds funny to me lol.

Maybe simple acronyms like most other forums would work? They don't need to be links either.

[Seriak]

The prefix idea has some merit but...

a) the link to forum rules is annoying and a little too much and

b) confusing as all hell as part of the title says I have read the link and part doesn't. (As previously mentioned)

A better idea for a prefix would be to add a city which is mandatory. Now that would be useful.

I never did agree with a limitation on what I can sell out of my fish tank. It helps keep the bills down at least until the inevitable crash which makes me have to buy everything again.

[fishoholic]

Seems like an ok idea in theory as a way to sort out sales posts but since it gives the option of "no prefix" it seems kinda pointless as I'm sure most people will choose that option out of convenience.

[jorjef]

If these changes reeeeally bother a person that much they are probably breaking the rules to begin with ooooooor he feel the need to instruct everyone to hold hands to cross the street just so he can take them back across to the other side again. This crappy hotel must have me grumpy, well a three hour drive to the next, hopefully it's better.

[sphelps]

Not a fan http://simmergirl.com/forum/smileys/thumb-down.gif

[Aquattro]

But I'm also fearful for my account... So, I'll stop there. :biggrin:

No accounts will be harmed in the voicing of opinions on this :)

[The Guy]

It's overly wordy. I really don't need a EULA to reef keep. If there was just FS, FT, FF, LF, etc. That'd be perfect, otherwise I have to brush up on my legalese every time I post, which means I'll likely not bother.
I totally agree, I quit using it to sell because everything is mixed together. Also not being able to edit to keep your thread up to date or remove your thread after you sell is a PITA.

[MKLKT]

It was a lot cleaner (and easier to buy AND list) when I could just strikethrough or update the first post with "sold". Instead, now I have to skim through a few pages of conversation/bumps on a listing with multiple items just to see if one of the pieces is still available. Before I could skip the listing entirely if the title was just updated to "SOLD". :) I definitely don't browse through much anymore, maybe that's the intention.

[Aquattro]

Also not being able to edit to keep your thread up to date or remove your thread after you sell is a PITA.

Based on that, it was probably you that caused the edit to be removed :) We asked a billion times for people to not change or remove the posts, but you kept doing it. We would have left it if people just marked items sold, but stuff got removed, changed or deleted altogether. So, no more edit. On a positive note, most people have adapted to not editing.
But, we digress, this thread is about the prefix "feature"...carry on :razz:

[Doug]

The concept is understandable, but the layout is confusing... Especially with some of them being linked and some not (I think it looks better unlinked). But I'm also fearful for my account... So, I'll stop there. :biggrin:

Ummm, thats a bit overstated. :lol:

[globaldesigns]

Ahhh, that is what has happened. I noticed this, and wondering WTH. I personally don't like it either.

[blacknife]

I saw the prefixing on my comp last night, but not seeing it on tapatalk today. ;)
Edit:
I do not see the prefixing when viewing but it asks to put one in if i post.

[Coasting]

I may not post much on here but I do read through multiple times a day. "[One Off Sale of Personal Items] (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/faq.php?faq=buyandsell#faq_oneoffsalepersonal)" Really? Like I think somebody selling a 200gallon tank has 40 more sitting in their basement. Its a bit redundant as well as annoying to look at for somebody who just clicks "New Posts". Even if people had a frag grow-op in their basement and was just cut and sell. They wouldn't be picking a title that said thats what they were doing. Just a Simple FS, FT, FF, LF (or a mix of them) that was mandatory would be more then enough, there are lots of people that forget to put that.

Now I would be all for something that makes people put a location in the title.

[reefwars]

I'm not a fan I have a feelng the buy and sell sections days are numbered TBH:(

[Ross]

I'm not a fan I have a feelng the buy and sell sections days are numbered TBH:(
I imagine that it will become a vendor only market soon. :Cry:

and all it will be is "Recurring Sale of Commercial Items" at the same price as everywhere else... WooHoo

Now I would be all for something that makes people put a location in the title.

I agree!!
Knowing what city an item is up for sale on Tapatalk is a royal PITA without a location in the title.
I'd be pushing location more than "One Off Sale of Personal Items"
If it's in the For Sale section one would assume that it's For Sale unless noted otherwise.

Now wheres my soap box??

If I sell a frag every 6 months, is that "Recurrent Sale of Personal Items]" or [One Off Sale of Personal Items]"?
As a purchaser, I only care that there is a frag for sale, not that one was sold in the past by this user.

"[One Off Sale of Excess Goods from Personal Shipments]" is redundant.
If someone is importing large quantities of items and constantly listing them up for sale, then they should be confronted by the mods at that point for sponsorship. I'm sure that the paying sponsors will see and mention if someone is undercutting them in this area.

Again, I'm not really interested if a seller ordered a 10lb bag of calcium and ended up with a 1000 lb bag and therefore has "Excess Goods from Personal Shipments".

All I want to know what is for sale/for trade/for free, where it is and price.

[reefwars]

I think their should be a section for members buy and sell seperate from sponsors buy and sell.

[Aquattro]

I'm not a fan I have a feelng the buy and sell sections days are numbered TBH:(

Absolutely not going to happen. Te buy and sell forums are for the members, and are here to stay.

[Aquattro]

I think their should be a section for members buy and sell seperate from sponsors buy and sell.

There is. It's the buy and sell forums. They are only for members. Vendors sell their stuff in their own respective forum. If you see otherwise, let me know and I'll move it to where it should be.

[Seriak]

All I want to know what is for sale/for trade/for free, where it is and price.

Exactly.

[Aquattro]

I agree!!
Knowing what city an item is up for sale on Tapatalk is a royal PITA without a location in the title.
I'd be pushing location more than "One Off Sale of Personal Items"
If it's in the For Sale section one would assume that it's For Sale unless noted otherwise.

Now wheres my soap box??

If I sell a frag every 6 months, is that "Recurrent Sale of Personal Items]" or [One Off Sale of Personal Items]"?
As a purchaser, I only care that there is a frag for sale, not that one was sold in the past by this user.

"[One Off Sale of Excess Goods from Personal Shipments]" is redundant.
If someone is importing large quantities of items and constantly listing them up for sale, then they should be confronted by the mods at that point for sponsorship. I'm sure that the paying sponsors will see and mention if someone is undercutting them in this area.

Again, I'm not really interested if a seller ordered a 10lb bag of calcium and ended up with a 1000 lb bag and therefore has "Excess Goods from Personal Shipments".

All I want to know what is for sale/for trade/for free, where it is and price.

As for location, each member is expected to put their location in their profile, which shows up on each and every post. If that doesn't show with tapatalk, that's a limitation of the app and should be taken up with them. Other than that, if the seller's profile (and post) indicates they are in Calgary, one would assume the item for sale is in the same city.

For the rest of your soapbox rally, I'd tend to agree.

[SteveConn]

I find the new format hard to navigate and a little annoying. People who abuse the buy and sell aspect b/w members can be dealt with individually and the rules updated if need be. Please bring back the previous, easy to read format.

The new format seems to be targeted/include in some ways at those with a small frag setup... I don't have one (yet), but that to me is part of the fun of this hobby... to acquire corals and trade/sell frags. I buy plenty from the sponsors, but I also want to buy and sell to members if I chose and I hope the door isn't closing on that particular part of the hobby on this board.

This has been an incredible resource for me since getting into SW just over a year ago and I visit it almost daily as a one-stop: research, browse, buy, sell. Its been great meeting people thru the buy and sell forums.

[lee9]

It's overly wordy. I really don't need a EULA to reef keep. If there was just FS, FT, FF, LF, etc. That'd be perfect, otherwise I have to brush up on my legalese every time I post, which means I'll likely not bother.

+1. I think If they changed to the categories that MKLKT mentioned it would be better.

If the categories are going to be used they should be mandatory in the buy/sell forums. Then all the posts would be in a more standardized form and start with the appropriate prefix.

As others have mentioned as well I normally only view the New Posts listing unless I am specifically searching for something. I don't like how the category is never bolded on the new threads that I have not viewed.

Either way though... change happens and I'll get used to it :)

[Slick Fork]

+1 on limiting the prefix to FF/FS/LF/FT. The new format looks unnecessarily wordy and complicated. If it's difficult people won't use it and speaking for myself the buy/sell is a big reason I check canreef multiple times a day instead of once a day. If Buy/sell dries up, so does a big reason for me to check in which decreases the amount of viewing of sponsor ad's that happens.

I also want to rant a little on the new definition (I think it's new, but maybe I just noticed it) of a commercial vendor; specifically the line about not needing even needing a website or other real "commercial" presence to fall under that category. A lot of our most active and most helpful members could potentially be classified under this new definition, guys who maintain a frag tank to subsidize their own hobby. If we chase these guys away in order to appease the sponsors we lose a tremendous resource and the sites quality will suffer as a direct result. To me, this smacks of bullying by vendors threatening to pull their advertising dollars and is really unfortunate.

I do realize that sponsors pay the bills around here, but enthusiasts selling frags out of their basement frag tanks keeps the hobby affordable, sustainable and their assistance and goodwill (on a level that you rarely see sponsors provide) help the large number of new members that pass through here every day keep from feeling overwhelmed by this intimidating hobby. If we lose that, your advertisers will have no one to bully but they will also have a drastically reduced audience to market their wares to. Once the advertisers see that site traffic is down, they will start questioning if advertising (sponsoring) on canreef is a worthwhile investment or money down the drain. Members are the reason Canreef gets sponsors who pay the bills. End of rant

[Zoaelite]

Most of my concerns have been voiced by the general canreef populace, the only thing that I can add is I have no problem paying a membership fee (Something similar to RC) if this would help circumvent high vendor fees.

By all means this wouldn't be a "pay or get lost" thing, just give general members the option to "support" canreef. Paying members could get a little avatar indicating they have personally contributed.

Just my 2 cents.

[reefwars]

I would contribute reguarily , for people like me how is sponsorship possible where I don't own a business and my revenue from frags is small, I'm not someone who posts only when frags are for sale I post answers, I visit houses, give people tester frags free and offer any service I can....I rarely charge for anything just frags I swallow all other costs and time......its kinda sad that I have to be careful not to make sponsors mad when people like me put in the real blood and tears.
...I bet I can name 50 people I've helped one way or another free of charge since Christmas
....and when its time to sell some frags I'm stepping on eggshells:(

Not trying to start a revolt just stating what's obviously fact:)

[Borderjumper]

I really didnt want to comment, as none of us has really knows the story behind
why this has been implemented. Yet.

But it's not hard to guess where it's going tho. It's to stop people who are selling multiple frags. I find it kinda sad that I am "breakin the law" because of my 15 acan frags I started 2 months ago planning on December sale for some extra Christmas money. Guess there's too much competition here.:razz:

I'm not going to stress over a message board rule change...I have the real world for that! It is what it is

I stand by my sig line tho..

[Zoaelite]

I would contribute reguarily , for people like me how is sponsorship possible where I don't own a business and my revenue from frags is small, I'm not someone who posts only when frags are for sale I post answers, I visit houses, give people tester frags free and offer any service I can....I rarely charge for anything just frags I swallow all other costs and time......its kinda sad that I have to be careful not to make sponsors mad when people like me put in the real blood and tears.
...I bet I can name 50 people I've helped one way or another free of charge since Christmas
....and when its time to sell some frags I'm stepping on eggshells:(

Not trying to start a revolt just stating what's obviously fact:)

No need to toot your own horn Denny ;), that's what were here for.

I couldn't agree with the statement above more, never even meeting me Denny SHIPPED me a Nuc. Green frag free of charge. It's people like this that act as the proverbial glue here at Canreef, remove their ability to provide help and you have a house built of sponsors, not a home built for us.

In addition most of these sellers are providing something very few vendors provide, actual aquacultured frags, grown in their own home systems. Not a single store in Calgary at the moment has an actual propagation system. What option does this give us besides wild caught?

Please Canreef, stop oppressing the little guy before its too late!

[gobytron]

Lol...

guys, this website is a business and like it or not, we the users are it's commodity.

This will not be the last change created to stifel the "black market" we create for ourselves as lets face it, the easier it is for us hobbysist to communicate, trade and sell at fair prices the harder it is for vendors to make their margins.

He who has the gold makes the rules.

We fear change
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PWR3w2VkSZs/TCuEa9mXUDI/AAAAAAAACKg/mRHEt4tcJf8/s1600/ifearchange.jpg

[Proteus]

I would contribute reguarily , for people like me how is sponsorship possible where I don't own a business and my revenue from frags is small, I'm not someone who posts only when frags are for sale I post answers, I visit houses, give people tester frags free and offer any service I can....I rarely charge for anything just frags I swallow all other costs and time......its kinda sad that I have to be careful not to make sponsors mad when people like me put in the real blood and tears.
...I bet I can name 50 people I've helped one way or another free of charge since Christmas
....and when its time to sell some frags I'm stepping on eggshells:(

Not trying to start a revolt just stating what's obviously fact:)

Lol...


This will not be the last change created to stifel the "black market" we create for ourselves as lets face it, the easier it is for us hobbysist to communicate, trade and sell at fair prices the harder it is for vendors to make their margins.



If vendors are worried about loosing money to guys like Denny then maybe they should one up him and bring in new exciting pieces we all drool about over the web

[dc4]

Most of my concerns have been voiced by the general canreef populace, the only thing that I can add is I have no problem paying a membership fee (Something similar to RC) if this would help circumvent high vendor fees.

By all means this wouldn't be a "pay or get lost" thing, just give general members the option to "support" canreef. Paying members could get a little avatar indicating they have personally contributed.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree with this as well, lots of other sites have paid members along with non-paid members. I visit here quite often throughout the day for my fix and would gladly contribute funds to keep things rolling smooth.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[reefwars]

I agree with this as well, lots of other sites have paid members along with non-paid members. I visit here quite often throughout the day for my fix and would gladly contribute funds to keep things rolling smooth.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

absolutely same here:)

[gregzz4]

I would also contribute, and tried to last spring, but that's not going to fix this issue
Having members pay a little bit to be able to sell more would only turn away sponsors

All I'm looking for here is a little format simplicity

[Snaz]

I can't figure out what the purpose of this change is. I can understand adding new fields to a database record so that it becomes easily sortable but the prefix changes proposed here don't make any sense to me. Perhaps a list of Canadian cities would make more sense but I really don't understand what his goal is here

[Seriak]

I would also contribute, and tried to last spring, but that's not going to fix this issue
Having members pay a little bit to be able to sell more would only turn away sponsors

All I'm looking for here is a little format simplicity

But wouldn't that be the point. If it did turn away a few sponsors, hopefully the added contributions from the members would offset the loss so this site can remain open and fair. Now do we have enough members to even try this, I have no idea. This would best be left for canreef's board and accountant to budget expected surplus or loss with this proposed change. Maybe you could even lower the sponsor fee depending on the member contributions.

[reefermadness]

Its obvious to stifle members from chop shopping or buying corals for the sole purpose of selling. I can agree to that....

But if its been in your system for a long time and frags are grown by you.....fair game I say.

If this still doesnt sound fair I know other forums have implemented different levels of sponsorships so even the basement small time fragger can afford to sponsor. Most people who want to do just a little side business by buying and selling or buying, fragging and selling; just might not have the income to justify the cost....so they are stuck.

[Doug]

All good points Darryl

[Snaz]

What is wrong with chop shopping and how will the prefix prevent it?

[cuz]

I don't think it has much to do with hobbiests selling frags at all. It would have been brought up in the past if it was a problem with the paying vendors.
I do think it has to do with people that are running "mini businesses" out of their house. These in my opinion are the people who make a living by undercutting lfs's prices and end up putting them out of business and a paying sponsor/vendor should have every right to get upset.
Just my opinion but guys selling frags is not the issue..

[Snaz]

Anytime a hobbyist propagates a coral for sell or trade that is better than buying from an LFS imho. The less we remove from the oceans the better.

[Aquattro]

What is wrong with chop shopping and how will the prefix prevent it?

running a chop shop without sponsorship is taking away business from the vendors that pay to advertise frags.
Not real sure how prefixes will stop it tho :)

[Madreefer]

If there's anybody who should be complaining about any of the rules of this site it should be only those who are actually paying for the site. No member at all should be complaining. I personally think the Random Thoughts thread is a total joke and just a source for those who like to post pad. My solution to that is to not read it. There is far too many members that think of themselves as moderators by jumping on people's posts and stating the rules of the site. ie: prices, location, how old a thread is and even grammar. Why don't you people let the mods do as they are appointed. Police the website. This site sure isn't like it used to be. Start sharing some knowledge about reefing. Some of you members want totally stupid amounts for your frags. Why not start trading instead of selling. Or better yet start giving frags and corals away if they get too big or you no longer like them. What goes around comes around. As I've been told on this site by several people "if you don't like it go away or don't read it". I don't like this or that and the website should do this or else. If your not paying for the site or a mod than you have no right stating rules or complaining. Until that time than keep your fingers off the keys and keep it related to what the sites actually supposed to be about.

[arash53]

If you add poll to this thread or post a poll ,everyone could vote.

I dont like it too.

Also I dont like the posts are not editable anymore!!!! so annoying

[burgerchow]

If there's anybody who should be complaining about any of the rules of this site it should be only those who are actually paying for the site. No member at all should be complaining. I personally think the Random Thoughts thread is a total joke and just a source for those who like to post pad. My solution to that is to not read it. There is far too many members that think of themselves as moderators by jumping on people's posts and stating the rules of the site. ie: prices, location, how old a thread is and even grammar. Why don't you people let the mods do as they are appointed. Police the website. This site sure isn't like it used to be. Start sharing some knowledge about reefing. Some of you members want totally stupid amounts for your frags. Why not start trading instead of selling. Or better yet start giving frags and corals away if they get too big or you no longer like them. What goes around comes around. As I've been told on this site by several people "if you don't like it go away or don't read it". I don't like this or that and the website should do this or else. If your not paying for the site or a mod than you have no right stating rules or complaining. Until that time than keep your fingers off the keys and keep it related to what the sites actually supposed to be about.


My sentiments exactly. Been watching this thread since it was posted, and surprised that you, Madreefer are the only one that thinks the same way as me. We don't own this site, and it is a privilege that we can use it without having to pay anything. Whoever owns a company can do or change any policies or ways of doing business any time he wants.
You guys shouldn't complain. If you don't like it, just leave.
The rest of you sound like a bunch of bleeding heart liberals.

This site is not a democracy. I was fortunate enough to find it a few years back and it has helped me learn some things and also helped me buy and sell a few things. If they change the format, I learn to adapt, or go find me a new site with a better format that suits my liking.

[freezetyle]

Also I dont like the posts are not editable anymore!!!! so annoying

Being able to edit posts was good for the sales threads. But I think I prefer it without. People tend to skew their normal behaviour on the internet and that feature helps to keep people accountable for their actions.

[reefwars]

If they change the format, I learn to adapt, or go find me a new site with a better format that suits my liking.

and that helps make the site better how???


like it or not the site revolves around its members , sure its a business...but its a business that wouldnt exist without its clientelle......the members. alot of canreefs members put in alot of time and effort, sure they dont need to but they do and because of this we created a community. i dont know about you but ive met just about most the members from calgary,edmonton and st.johns prob over a 100 people, im friends with alot of them its gone farther then just people on a site. we all are what makes the site and our imput is important, it helps keep the site interesting and with the amount of smart minds around here its no doubt the site will get better.......a little debate over headlines and policies are to be expected its part of expanding and growing:)

[Aquattro]

......a little debate over headlines and policies are to be expected its part of expanding and growing:)

And I've got to say, after all the posts so far, this thread has remained very civil. Thanks to everyone for keeping it that way.
While yes, this is a business, and no, it's not a democracy, it is a community of hobbyists that come here, some as regulars, and some new, to enjoy a common topic.
We like to keep the board as a place people like to come and chat with their friends, or rant about how they just killed everything :(
Feedback on "features", good or bad, help keep the board as a place people like to come back to...
There have been some good suggestions so far, and I'll be bringing them up for discussion with the rest of the team. There's a few things I'd like to see happen here to make the hobby better and easier, without stepping on sponsor toes.
Anyway, carry on, I've asked the boss to read this, and hopefully explain the new format (cause I'm confused :razz: )

[titus]

Hello

Brad thanks and have been watching it. I welcome the feedback but am on the road so can't reply properly at length (am on an iPhone). So keep commenting civil, just drop the can't edit feature as that was done much earlier on for a separate reason. Also keep in mind the following with the comments and discussions:
1) Prefix isn't setup to curb fragging. It provides a means for me to generate some stats of the top members who initiates what categories of Buy / Sell threads. And who are the ones abusing the site to do basement businesses. It serves as a guiding metric only for further follow up.
2) Canreef don't kneel in front of sponsors but does have to appreciate their contribution and watch out for their associated concerns. We don't mind losing sponsors if it conflicts with keeping the site opened for discussions and so far I haven't seen how we have come to become that way. Maybe we should start a separate thread to collect evidence of this later so we can see what we can do to avoid this.
3) I too hate the length and wordiness of the current format. But acronyms are confusing to me as well. So anyone who can suggests shorter phrases that carries the same meaning I can change to that also.
4) Didn't know it'd cause an issue to New Posts since last visit feature so I'll investigate a bit on that separately.

Titus

[MKLKT]

Maybe set it so that those wordy categories are picked while making the thread so it's logged for your stat taking but make it show as FS, LF, etc on the thread titles with no link? Short and sweet and makes sure you don't forget it in title. :)

Or single words like sale, buy, group, need?

[jorjef]

Just a few thoughts. The site has made the change, the reasons aren't for me to worry about first because I rarely sell anything and two because it's beyond my control. If I was to list something for sale it looks like all I would have to do is add a couple of clicks to either choose a prefix or not to, big deal. Second, and it took me awhile to see what others were seeing and complaining about. If you want, click on "portal" rather than "new posts" by doing so the prefixs aren't shown in the title line of the post. The threads all list in the exact same order minus the prefix and the forumn that the thread is posted in, both useless information for me so I'm no worse off. I have never used the "new posts" tab and have always used "portal" both take you to the same location one just without the extra info that does seem rather annoying but can be avoided

[Seriak]

I don't think it is so much that they are wordy, but more confusing.

So if I am selling hardware, I am assuming it becomes one off. If I am selling coral frags, it could be one off or recurrent. But what time frame do I use. Let's say it was 1 month, 3 months, or even 6 months since my last frag sale. At what interval is it recurrent instead of one off. I don't think the one off of excess goods prefix is really useful.

Also, are you going to be moderating people and their use of the prefixes? What if someone always uses A rather than B as a prefix even though B might have been the better choice. I think this will give you more head aches then it's going to relieve and still not clear up the problem of appeasing the vendors by trying to weed out chop shops and small business from members who are just trying to subsidize this expensive hobby.

Either way, I still like the idea of implemementing a member contribution tool. You just have to make it clear that the contribution is a donation and does not give you any say in the operation of the site.

[jorjef]

I don't think it is so much that they are wordy, but more confusing.

So if I am selling hardware, I am assuming it becomes one off. If I am selling coral frags, it could be one off or recurrent. But what time frame do I use. Let's say it was 1 month, 3 months, or even 6 months since my last frag sale. At what interval is it recurrent instead of one off. I don't think the one off of excess goods prefix is really useful.



Can't a person just pick "no prefix" and not worry about it?.....nope I guess not, just tried.. lol.. Personally I wouldn't worry about time lines. If they think you are abusing the privilege of selling they will let you know.

[Aquattro]

Also, are you going to be moderating people and their use of the prefixes?

Uh, nope, not me :) I'm not sure I'd know what to moderate. :razz:

I do, however, like the Portal option, all the ugly goes away -lol

[titus]

Hello,
Okay finally have been able to read through these properly in front of a computer. I try to respond to the comments and queries as much as I can.
When I select 'New Posts', many look as if I've already read them, due to this new setup.
This not only makes it harder to scan through threads I've read, but the length of the titles is counter-productive, at least from a 'scan through' prospective.

If we use Prefix to select locations, we'd have the same issue though one can say province acronyms are shorter which is something I'm keen to make it so for the existing prefixes as well. Otherwise, I can look into removing these prefixes in the New Posts results.

The concept is understandable, but the layout is confusing... Especially with some of them being linked and some not (I think it looks better unlinked). But I'm also fearful for my account... So, I'll stop there.
You mean linking as in most but the "Want To Buy" category are linked to the FAQ with explanation? No need to be afraid. While it doesn't mean we can cater to every requests it doesn't mean we can't listen to them and see what we can do about them as long as we keep the discussions civilized.

I've spent hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars at most of the sponsors on this site. I'm sure other members are in the same boat. In exchange for supporting these vendors, it would be nice to have a clean worry free buy/sell page where I can sell off unwanted products/frags without having the worry of breaking rules and following confusing grey area regulations. As you said, it's us members who drive this site... It seems as though this concept was lost in the implementation. /rant
I would be happy if the rules were clearly displayed on the main page of the buy/sell section and use this functionality for a clearer understanding of what the person is trying to do with their post. Having a drop down for "For Sale", "Group Buy", "Want to buy" without a link to rules would be clean and useful.
It appears that you are not aware there are indeed links in place for the Notice area above each of the Buy / Sell forum pages, and most of the Prefixes themselves, to the FAQ section explaning what the categories are.

Haven't forgotten about the membership who drives the traffic to the site, though not sure why we have come across as such because the implementation was meant to generate stats for me to see how the site is being used and who may be abusing it.

It's overly wordy. I really don't need a EULA to reef keep. If there was just FS, FT, FF, LF, etc. That'd be perfect, otherwise I have to brush up on my legalese every time I post, which means I'll likely not bother.
I agree. I hate the current way of how things are but that's how they have been for quite some time already. If we can make them shorter I'm all up for it but I'd get confused with "FS, FT, FF, LF, etc". One of the reasons for the prefixes is I want to have a process in place where the person starting the thread is also declaring the nature of the thread (ie recurrent or one off, etc). If someone keeps on doing recurrent sale of quality corals every 3 weeks then we need to keep an eye on it. If someone keeps on doing one off sale of quality corals then we need to start investigating if someone is knowingly making false declarations. It is similar to the intention of filling in the Custom's entry card declaring how much and what kind of goods you are bringing in to the country. Yes people can falsify declarations but that's another story. However, this can partially be achieved by using simpler categories such as "For Sale, For Trade, etc" and us building a smarter reporting tool for generating the metrics.

Maybe simple acronyms like most other forums would work? They don't need to be links either.
Can you give me the acronyms you have in mind? I disagree with no links as not everyone have the same interpretations. I know myself is one of them.

The prefix idea has some merit but...
a) the link to forum rules is annoying and a little too much and
b) confusing as all hell as part of the title says I have read the link and part doesn't. (As previously mentioned)
A better idea for a prefix would be to add a city which is mandatory. Now that would be useful.
I never did agree with a limitation on what I can sell out of my fish tank. It helps keep the bills down at least until the inevitable crash which makes me have to buy everything again.
Understood on what you meant by part of the title says you have read it and part of it says you haven't. However, depending on how we take this I may adjust the way the page is displayed to remove the Prefixes. The idea of choosing a city is great but that should be evident from the Location you have entered when you registered. As for agreeing with a limitation, we haven't set a limit. The Prefixes is a means for assist us in collecting information on the types of posts being made over time.
For "One Off Sale of Excess Goods from Personal Shipments", we don't expect someone to order 10 bukets of salt every month and then have to do this one off sale for 9 buckets in the shipment. This doesn't mean there is an issue with someone ordering sand and rock in the first quarter and have to get rid of some because there is too much, and then ordering snails in the second quarter and have to get rid of some because there were 5 too many, then followed by ordering ordering carbon and have to get rid of a few extra bags. But for those who declare this every month and selling off rock, then yes I'd start wondering what's happening.
For "One Off Sale of Personal Items", we don't expect someone keep having Protein Skimmers of all sorts of varieties being available and selling them every so often.
For "Recurrent Sale of Personal Items", this is the category which fragging corals belongs to and sure do this once in a while no problem. If there is an abundance of all sorts of corals and every month we have a sale, then yes something I'd like to know about before some paying sponsor write us a good PM or one of the Staff members getting fed up because they inquire the involved member, who then give them headaches, and in either case we have to read through all the threads and posts the involved members have made in order to get a feel of the history and jist of what happened.

Seems like an ok idea in theory as a way to sort out sales posts but since it gives the option of "no prefix" it seems kinda pointless as I'm sure most people will choose that option out of convenience.

You will not be able to post without choosing one.

I totally agree, I quit using it to sell because everything is mixed together. Also not being able to edit to keep your thread up to date or remove your thread after you sell is a PITA.

You mean everythign starts with the same Prefix so they all appeared to be mixed together? This would be an issue as long as we use Prefix, even if we use it to categorize seller's location, or using acryonyms as suggested. And the thread editing feature was removed for an entirely different reason.

I may not post much on here but I do read through multiple times a day. "[One Off Sale of Personal Items]" Really? Like I think somebody selling a 200gallon tank has 40 more sitting in their basement. Its a bit redundant as well as annoying to look at for somebody who just clicks "New Posts". Even if people had a frag grow-op in their basement and was just cut and sell. They wouldn't be picking a title that said thats what they were doing. Just a Simple FS, FT, FF, LF (or a mix of them) that was mandatory would be more then enough, there are lots of people that forget to put that.
Now I would be all for something that makes people put a location in the title.

Believe it or not we do have to deal with issues with some selling quite a bit of stuff. If I do a report on the top 10 person electing this category and it reveals the top 2 have been making 5 of this type of posts of similar goods, then yes some discussions will start happening. This is now being done manually by some of the Staff members viewing the site scanning through the threads. I hate to see them having to do this and would like to have some process oriented manner that is done on an automated basis.
The "One Off Sale of Personal Items" is meant to assist us to distinguish from "One Off Sale of Excess Goods from Personal Shipments", both belonging to the "FS" category. We might in the long term be using the acronyms or something simpler like "For Sale". Just that the Staff have to read through the threads to find out whether it is from a new shipment or something that has been used for a while and is now being sold.
And yes the location as explained, is on the post as part of your member information.

I imagine that it will become a vendor only market soon.
and all it will be is "Recurring Sale of Commercial Items" at the same price as everywhere else... WooHoo
If I sell a frag every 6 months, is that "Recurrent Sale of Personal Items]" or [One Off Sale of Personal Items]"?
As a purchaser, I only care that there is a frag for sale, not that one was sold in the past by this user.
"[One Off Sale of Excess Goods from Personal Shipments]" is redundant.
If someone is importing large quantities of items and constantly listing them up for sale, then they should be confronted by the mods at that point for sponsorship. I'm sure that the paying sponsors will see and mention if someone is undercutting them in this area.
All I want to know what is for sale/for trade/for free, where it is and price.
Vendors have their own forum to post and are not expected to post in the Buy / Sell forums.
If it's a frag every 6 months, then it'd be "Recurrent Sale of Personal Items" as we expect you to frag every so often. Regarding the purchaser not caring what category it is in, we can either change to make the Prefix not appear or change to use it to distinguish whether it is a "For Sale" or "Want To Buy", etc manner which is to be decided.
As for someone constantly selling large quantity of stuff, it's being done manually at the moment. As explained above I'm trying to find a way to automate this to relieve the Staff team from having to read through each post, remember who has been doing what, and then bring up for discussions. One of the aims is to find an automated way to do this.

Titus

[titus]

Hello,

I have to break this into two posts as the system is complaining it's too long to fit into one.

I think their should be a section for members buy and sell seperate from sponsors buy and sell.
Don't recall when I saw a commercial sponsor making a thread to sell stuff in the Buy / Sell forum. If you can find someone doing this all the time, please let me know.

The new format seems to be targeted/include in some ways at those with a small frag setup... I don't have one (yet), but that to me is part of the fun of this hobby... to acquire corals and trade/sell frags. I buy plenty from the sponsors, but I also want to buy and sell to members if I chose and I hope the door isn't closing on that particular part of the hobby on this board.
We have no intention of shutting the door to fragging. I expect this to happen therefore the category "Recurrent Sale of Personal Items" which I expect to be the case for those who has larger tanks.

+1. I think If they changed to the categories that MKLKT mentioned it would be better.
If the categories are going to be used they should be mandatory in the buy/sell forums. Then all the posts would be in a more standardized form and start with the appropriate prefix.
As others have mentioned as well I normally only view the New Posts listing unless I am specifically searching for something. I don't like how the category is never bolded on the new threads that I have not viewed.
We may ended up changing to the simpler categories. The prefixes are indeed mandatory as of this moment. You may see threads without prefixes being listed at the top of the search due to someone making a reply to a thread started before this change.
Regarding you not liking how the category is not bolded on the New Threads result page, this would happen even if we change to the simpler categories.

+1 on limiting the prefix to FF/FS/LF/FT. The new format looks unnecessarily wordy and complicated. If it's difficult people won't use it and speaking for myself the buy/sell is a big reason I check canreef multiple times a day instead of once a day. If Buy/sell dries up, so does a big reason for me to check in which decreases the amount of viewing of sponsor ad's that happens.
I also want to rant a little on the new definition (I think it's new, but maybe I just noticed it) of a commercial vendor; specifically the line about not needing even needing a website or other real "commercial" presence to fall under that category. A lot of our most active and most helpful members could potentially be classified under this new definition, guys who maintain a frag tank to subsidize their own hobby. If we chase these guys away in order to appease the sponsors we lose a tremendous resource and the sites quality will suffer as a direct result. To me, this smacks of bullying by vendors threatening to pull their advertising dollars and is really unfortunate.
I do realize that sponsors pay the bills around here, but enthusiasts selling frags out of their basement frag tanks keeps the hobby affordable, sustainable and their assistance and goodwill (on a level that you rarely see sponsors provide) help the large number of new members that pass through here every day keep from feeling overwhelmed by this intimidating hobby. If we lose that, your advertisers will have no one to bully but they will also have a drastically reduced audience to market their wares to. Once the advertisers see that site traffic is down, they will start questioning if advertising (sponsoring) on canreef is a worthwhile investment or money down the drain. Members are the reason Canreef gets sponsors who pay the bills. End of rant
I've already started liking the idea of the simpler category and this gives me another reason for it.
No need to rant and Canreef don't bow before sponsors, but we practice good business ethics so we don't take their sponsorship fees and do something that is detrimental to them. If we come across a time when we conflict with keeping the sponsors or providing a forum for members to trade, it'd be sponsors who go. In fact I recall we refunded one of the ex-sponsors of his remaining terms because we don't want that sponsor anymore because too many members have had problems with him. Luckily we haven't have to do this too often, and we may very well introduce a work around by accepting sponsorship from members rather than sponsors. Maybe we should start a poll on this.

Most of my concerns have been voiced by the general canreef populace, the only thing that I can add is I have no problem paying a membership fee (Something similar to RC) if this would help circumvent high vendor fees.
By all means this wouldn't be a "pay or get lost" thing, just give general members the option to "support" canreef. Paying members could get a little avatar indicating they have personally contributed.

Okay. +1 on the member sponsorship.

I would contribute reguarily , for people like me how is sponsorship possible where I don't own a business and my revenue from frags is small, I'm not someone who posts only when frags are for sale I post answers, I visit houses, give people tester frags free and offer any service I can....I rarely charge for anything just frags I swallow all other costs and time......its kinda sad that I have to be careful not to make sponsors mad when people like me put in the real blood and tears.
...I bet I can name 50 people I've helped one way or another free of charge since Christmas
....and when its time to sell some frags I'm stepping on eggshells
Not trying to start a revolt just stating what's obviously fact
Hopefully wiht my answer to Slick Fork above you shouldn't be worried about stepping on vendors toes if that's what you have been doing. For some, however, we do have to engage in discussions with them but they belong to the extreme minority.

But it's not hard to guess where it's going tho. It's to stop people who are selling multiple frags. I find it kinda sad that I am "breakin the law" because of my 15 acan frags I started 2 months ago planning on December sale for some extra Christmas money. Guess there's too much competition here.
This would have triggered an alert on the reporting and someone will be knocking on your door the next day with a search warrant to take videos and photos of your setup. Just kidding! You'd have instead receive a PM from one of us asking you what are you planning to do.

In addition most of these sellers are providing something very few vendors provide, actual aquacultured frags, grown in their own home systems. Not a single store in Calgary at the moment has an actual propagation system. What option does this give us besides wild caught?
Please Canreef, stop oppressing the little guy before its too late!
Yes this is why we promote fragging amongst members. We don't oppress anyone. Will not put announcements on all the forum pages saying we promote fragging. So don't worry.

I agree with this as well, lots of other sites have paid members along with non-paid members. I visit here quite often throughout the day for my fix and would gladly contribute funds to keep things rolling smooth.
Okay. +1 on the member sponsorship.

absolutely same here
Okay. +1 on the member sponsorship.

I would also contribute, and tried to last spring, but that's not going to fix this issue
Having members pay a little bit to be able to sell more would only turn away sponsors
All I'm looking for here is a little format simplicity
I have turned down the idea all along is I have always wanted to keep it as opened as possible. However over time I did have pondered on this as a means to provide different types of service to members. And again if this ended up conflicting with sponsors who sell frags, it's not the member who goes.

But wouldn't that be the point. If it did turn away a few sponsors, hopefully the added contributions from the members would offset the loss so this site can remain open and fair. Now do we have enough members to even try this, I have no idea. This would best be left for canreef's board and accountant to budget expected surplus or loss with this proposed change. Maybe you could even lower the sponsor fee depending on the member contributions.
Think a poll is required for this. In return from sponsoring, anything you'd ask for specifically?

Its obvious to stifle members from chop shopping or buying corals for the sole purpose of selling. I can agree to that....
But if its been in your system for a long time and frags are grown by you.....fair game I say.
If this still doesnt sound fair I know other forums have implemented different levels of sponsorships so even the basement small time fragger can afford to sponsor. Most people who want to do just a little side business by buying and selling or buying, fragging and selling; just might not have the income to justify the cost....so they are stuck.
Can you recommend a few sites for me to reference this idea of different levels of sponsorships? Any suggestions of how we may implement this?

I don't think it has much to do with hobbiests selling frags at all. It would have been brought up in the past if it was a problem with the paying vendors.
I do think it has to do with people that are running "mini businesses" out of their house. These in my opinion are the people who make a living by undercutting lfs's prices and end up putting them out of business and a paying sponsor/vendor should have every right to get upset.
Just my opinion but guys selling frags is not the issue..
Thanks. Exactly one of the reasons for this prefix thing.

running a chop shop without sponsorship is taking away business from the vendors that pay to advertise frags.
Not real sure how prefixes will stop it tho
It doesn't. But assist us in identifying who we need to speak to.

Also I dont like the posts are not editable anymore!!!! so annoying
This is a separate issue.

If they change the format, I learn to adapt, or go find me a new site with a better format that suits my liking.
Better yet we find a workable solution together.

like it or not the site revolves around its members , sure its a business...but its a business that wouldnt exist without its clientelle......the members. alot of canreefs members put in alot of time and effort, sure they dont need to but they do and because of this we created a community. i dont know about you but ive met just about most the members from calgary,edmonton and st.johns prob over a 100 people, im friends with alot of them its gone farther then just people on a site. we all are what makes the site and our imput is important, it helps keep the site interesting and with the amount of smart minds around here its no doubt the site will get better.......a little debate over headlines and policies are to be expected its part of expanding and growing
We appreciate the feedback, comments, and discussions. Some have indeed drove some of us crazy but a lot of good members here indeed.

Maybe set it so that those wordy categories are picked while making the thread so it's logged for your stat taking but make it show as FS, LF, etc on the thread titles with no link? Short and sweet and makes sure you don't forget it in title.
Or single words like sale, buy, group, need?
We will go with either one. I need some time to investigate and think about it through.

I don't think it is so much that they are wordy, but more confusing.
So if I am selling hardware, I am assuming it becomes one off. If I am selling coral frags, it could be one off or recurrent. But what time frame do I use. Let's say it was 1 month, 3 months, or even 6 months since my last frag sale. At what interval is it recurrent instead of one off. I don't think the one off of excess goods prefix is really useful.
Also, are you going to be moderating people and their use of the prefixes? What if someone always uses A rather than B as a prefix even though B might have been the better choice. I think this will give you more head aches then it's going to relieve and still not clear up the problem of appeasing the vendors by trying to weed out chop shops and small business from members who are just trying to subsidize this expensive hobby.
Either way, I still like the idea of implemementing a member contribution tool. You just have to make it clear that the contribution is a donation and does not give you any say in the operation of the site.
Good points about the time frame and confusing aspects. You shouldn't have to if it's being done naturally and not in an abusive manner. But I see how it may still come across as such.

Titus

[Northernseacorals]

Most of my concerns have been voiced by the general canreef populace, the only thing that I can add is I have no problem paying a membership fee (Something similar to RC) if this would help circumvent high vendor fees.

By all means this wouldn't be a "pay or get lost" thing, just give general members the option to "support" canreef. Paying members could get a little avatar indicating they have personally contributed.

Just my 2 cents.

The sponsor fee for AquariumPros is $3060 per year
The sponsor fee for Reef Central is $6000 per year
And Canreef is less than half of AquariumPros

Your solution to start taxing the members is not the answer to get cheaper fees for sponsors.

[Snaz]

THanks Titus for taking the time to address our concerns. It is not just the members that make canreef special but it is the staff too. Cheers!

Now how much to purchase a banner add that proclaims my awesomeness? That would be awesome.

[Zoaelite]

Agreed, thanks for taking the time to reply Titus. Always nice to see ownership involved in these things.

The sponsor fee for AquariumPros is $3060 per year
The sponsor fee for Reef Central is $6000 per year
And Canreef is less than half of AquariumPros

Your solution to start taxing the members is not the answer to get cheaper fees for sponsors.

Your logic is flawed my friend.

Relating sponsorship to cost requires a quantity variable, in this case membership. Reefcentral has 289,000 members, Canreef has 9600 therefor by your logic a Canreef sponsorship should cost around $206.00/ year.

You also brandished me by inserting the word "Tax" into my mouth, please reread my statement at no time have I suggested a mandatory payment to all members.

Originally Posted by Zoaelite
Most of my concerns have been voiced by the general canreef populace, the only thing that I can add is I have no problem paying a membership fee (Something similar to RC) if this would help circumvent high vendor fees.

By all means this wouldn't be a "pay or get lost" thing, just give general members the option to "support" canreef. Paying members could get a little avatar indicating they have personally contributed.

Just my 2 cents.

As for the effect, if the site is bringing in revenue from paying members how could that not go to offset the cost of paying sponsors?

[Slick Fork]

THanks Titus for taking the time to address our concerns. It is not just the members that make canreef special but it is the staff too. Cheers!


I was just thinking the same thing. It's impressive that we've got 7 pages of what is potentially a pretty charged topic and it has remained civilized and thoughtful throughout. Says a LOT about both the members and the staff we have here.

[dc4]

The sponsor fee for AquariumPros is $3060 per year
The sponsor fee for Reef Central is $6000 per year
And Canreef is less than half of AquariumPros

Your solution to start taxing the members is not the answer to get cheaper fees for sponsors.

You cant see it as taxing members if its just an optional fee for special percs as preivously mentioned.

Like I said previously, lots of us here visit regularly and have made friends that are interested in this great, but expensive, hobby. If someone wants to come by and visit the forums and not pay a cent, Im sure they will always be able to do that. Those that have mentioned contributing to a optional user fee, would do so for the added percs (<-misspelled on purpose). Lots of other sites give free monthly draws, discount cards for sponsors, tshirts, stickers, special icons, allowing edits of posts?, etc...

It would be up to the admins/owners of the site to work out what, if anything, would be offered for any optional fees.

Just think of it like having 2 versions of canreef:
Basic Version (no fee): The same canreef that you know and love.
Upgraded version (optional user fee): Beefed up version of canreef with a few extra percs.

[Zoaelite]

You cant see it as taxing members if its just an optional fee for special percs as preivously mentioned.

Like I said previously, lots of us here visit regularly and have made friends that are interested in this great, but expensive, hobby. If someone wants to come by and visit the forums and not pay a cent, Im sure they will always be able to do that. Those that have mentioned contributing to a optional user fee, would do so for the added percs (<-misspelled on purpose). Lots of other sites give free monthly draws, discount cards for sponsors, tshirts, stickers, special icons, allowing edits of posts?, etc...

It would be up to the admins/owners of the site to work out what, if anything, would be offered for any optional fees.

Just think of it like having 2 versions of canreef:
Basic Version (no fee): The same canreef that you know and love.
Upgraded version (optional user fee): Beefed up version of canreef with a few extra percs.

I have my Visa card waiting if this is the case :lol:.

[Bblinks]

I would be happy to be a canreef supporter like on reefcentral but of course I don't think it should be manditory.

Like most of us I have membership on various reef sites but canreef is home. I have no problem supporting our community of hobbyist which supports my addiction.

[Seriak]

I have my Visa card waiting if this is the case :lol:.

+1

[Slick Fork]

I don't think it's a matter of making things cheaper for sponsors. I think this is more of a conflict of interest issue and how we handle it. The conflict being someone like Coral Master who sells exclusively frags and a non-sponsoring member who runs a frag system of unknown size. I don't imagine guys like Red Coral or Aqua-Digital really have a large concern as we almost never see people saying "Hey, I brought 15 bubble kings up from the states... who wants one"

SOlutions:
Sponsor favourite is to squash the buy and sell forum to limit competition

Member favourite is going to be to tell the sponsors that they buy advertising space and that's it, no guarantees of non-competition from members.

Right now we're trying to meet in the middle and say guys who magically have 10 "surplus" bubble kings every month are out of line but we're going to try to leave individuals alone. This is great in principal but has to be a nightmare for Mod's, especially if some vendors are very vocal and high maintenance causing a lot of unnecessary "investigations". So, I get the need to track who's hitting the buy/sell forums lots to help with complaints.

If I read correctly, Zoaelite is not proposing a mandatory membership fee or tax... more of a voluntary contribution to allow us to reduce the dependency on sponsors and move to a "you're just buying advertising space" kind of model.

I'll suggest a refinement of this idea. We could introduce varied levels of membership/sponsorship with the perks for paid membership being more priveliges in the buy and sell forums. A quick/rough example:
Level 1: General member very limited # of unique buy/sell threads allowed every month - FREE
Level 2: Preferred member: More unique buy/sell threads every month, indication on avatar or in signature of preferred status. - Cost = $$
Level 3: Sponsor: Own forum, banner adds, indication of sponsorship in profile/avatar/signature. - Cost = $$$$ minus the funds raised by preferred members. So if we have 10 sponsors (Just pulling numbers out of a hat here) who currently pay $1200/year for sponsorship status and we raise $2000 from selling preferred memberships, the sponsors have thier cost offset by$200 each. This would keep board revenues the same, help appease sponsors who might feel slighted and allow guys like reefwars and others to continue as they have been.

In my above example, non-sponsoring actual businesses (Brick and mortar store or website) would still be prohibited from selling/advertising/marketing on the board.

[sphelps]

Zoa, you can't base sponsorship price on member quantity alone, think about target audience and competition. Canadian forum, Canadian market, how many Canreef members are both Canadian and active in the hobby then ask how many sponsors to members do we have. Now ask the same about RC before you compare apples.

Plus Canreef sponsorship is cheap people! A couple lines in a newspaper would cost significantly more and provide significantly less results. And why are we even discussing this? Are sponsors complaining about the cost? And if they are that's between them and Canreef staff.

And there is a big difference between someone like Coral Master and someone with a frag tank. Coral master brings in corals for the sole purpose of fragging them, this is a business not personal propagation, clear as day and that's before you consider a website with a business name which I would assume is registered.

In regards to premium membership to obtain special privileges, IMO dumb, really dumb. To gain such privileges you have remove them from regular membership so you don't gain anything. To actually add things which I have no idea what such things would be you'd have to invest time and money so what's the point there. Donations might be better but if Canreef doesn't need charity why offer it, donate to your food bank or something if you're itching to help someone out.

[reefwars]

You cant see it as taxing members if its just an optional fee for special percs as preivously mentioned.

Like I said previously, lots of us here visit regularly and have made friends that are interested in this great, but expensive, hobby. If someone wants to come by and visit the forums and not pay a cent, Im sure they will always be able to do that. Those that have mentioned contributing to a optional user fee, would do so for the added percs (<-misspelled on purpose). Lots of other sites give free monthly draws, discount cards for sponsors, tshirts, stickers, special icons, allowing edits of posts?, etc...

It would be up to the admins/owners of the site to work out what, if anything, would be offered for any optional fees.

Just think of it like having 2 versions of canreef:
Basic Version (no fee): The same canreef that you know and love.
Upgraded version (optional user fee): Beefed up version of canreef with a few extra percs.

I don't think it's a matter of making things cheaper for sponsors. I think this is more of a conflict of interest issue and how we handle it. The conflict being someone like Coral Master who sells exclusively frags and a non-sponsoring member who runs a frag system of unknown size. I don't imagine guys like Red Coral or Aqua-Digital really have a large concern as we almost never see people saying "Hey, I brought 15 bubble kings up from the states... who wants one"

SOlutions:
Sponsor favourite is to squash the buy and sell forum to limit competition

Member favourite is going to be to tell the sponsors that they buy advertising space and that's it, no guarantees of non-competition from members.

Right now we're trying to meet in the middle and say guys who magically have 10 "surplus" bubble kings every month are out of line but we're going to try to leave individuals alone. This is great in principal but has to be a nightmare for Mod's, especially if some vendors are very vocal and high maintenance causing a lot of unnecessary "investigations". So, I get the need to track who's hitting the buy/sell forums lots to help with complaints.

If I read correctly, Zoaelite is not proposing a mandatory membership fee or tax... more of a voluntary contribution to allow us to reduce the dependency on sponsors and move to a "you're just buying advertising space" kind of model.

I'll suggest a refinement of this idea. We could introduce varied levels of membership/sponsorship with the perks for paid membership being more priveliges in the buy and sell forums. A quick/rough example:
Level 1: General member very limited # of unique buy/sell threads allowed every month - FREE
Level 2: Preferred member: More unique buy/sell threads every month, indication on avatar or in signature of preferred status. - Cost = $$
Level 3: Sponsor: Own forum, banner adds, indication of sponsorship in profile/avatar/signature. - Cost = $$$$ minus the funds raised by preferred members. So if we have 10 sponsors (Just pulling numbers out of a hat here) who currently pay $1200/year for sponsorship status and we raise $2000 from selling preferred memberships, the sponsors have thier cost offset by$200 each. This would keep board revenues the same, help appease sponsors who might feel slighted and allow guys like reefwars and others to continue as they have been.

In my above example, non-sponsoring actual businesses (Brick and mortar store or website) would still be prohibited from selling/advertising/marketing on the board.

i completely agree with this , there should be an optional membership fee which in turn allows for certain extras. it wouldnt be mandatory , it would be something someone wanted to do.

for someone new to the hobby paying a fee woulnt be interestig but to members who have been here a while or in the hobby for a long time would enjoy it.

[Slick Fork]

And there is a big difference between someone like Coral Master and someone with a frag tank. Coral master brings in corals for the sole purpose of fragging them, this is a business not personal propagation, clear as day and that's before you consider a website with a business name which I would assume is registered.



That's kind of what I was getting at. The problem seems to be vendors are getting their nose out of joint because of perceived competition from members and causing a lot of headaches for moderators and Titus. I used Coral Master simply because when I think specialized frags, I think Coral Master (not to suggest that he is the one complaining!)

[Seriak]

In regards to premium membership to obtain special privileges, IMO dumb, really dumb. To gain such privileges you have remove them from regular membership so you don't gain anything. To actually add things which I have no idea what such things would be you'd have to invest time and money so what's the point there. Donations might be better but if Canreef doesn't need charity why offer it, donate to your food bank or something if you're itching to help someone out.

As Dc4 said.

Lots of other sites give free monthly draws, discount cards for sponsors, tshirts, stickers, special icons, allowing edits of posts?, etc...

[sphelps]

As Dc4 said.

Lots of other sites give free monthly draws, discount cards for sponsors, tshirts, stickers, special icons, allowing edits of posts?, etc...

That all costs money and time my friend, you don't gain anything. Sponsors can't be expected to just donate items and credit to the site because the site brings in more money. As for editing you think mods will let you break rules cause you pay $20 a year. It wasn't removed so that it could be purchased back. Other sites may need donations to keep it going, or at least that's what the shady guy behind the scenes is telling you, Canreef isn't like that and I don't know why anyone would want it that way.

[FishyFishy!]

That all costs money and time my friend, you don't gain anything. Sponsors can't be expected to just donate items and credit to the site because the site brings in more money. As for editing you think mods will let you break rules cause you pay $20 a year. It wasn't removed so that it could be purchased back.



haha well said

[Seriak]

That all costs money and time my friend, you don't gain anything. Sponsors can't be expected to just donate items and credit to the site because the site brings in more money. As for editing you think mods will let you break rules cause you pay $20 a year. It wasn't removed so that it could be purchased back. Other sites may need donations to keep it going, or at least that's what the shady guy behind the scenes is telling you, Canreef isn't like that and I don't know why anyone would want it that way.

Those were simply examples. Avatars and special icons wouldn't cost anything. If the amount got high enough, they could put part of the proceeds towards the purchase of a piece of equipment to give away. Members could donate frags towards a draw to contributing members. If part of the vendor sponsorship fee was lowered due to member contributions, maybe some vendors would donate items or pass along discounts as a thank you to those members. These are all just ideas. You just have to think outside the box.

[sphelps]

That's kind of what I was getting at. The problem seems to be vendors are getting their nose out of joint because of perceived competition from members and causing a lot of headaches for moderators and Titus. I used Coral Master simply because when I think specialized frags, I think Coral Master (not to suggest that he is the one complaining!)

Yeap wasn't disagreeing, just throwing in my two bits is all. If vendors can't see the difference and in turn complain about high vendor fees then perhaps they shouldn't be in business anymore as they obviously aren't very good at it. Canreef has shut down plenty of people who are on the real verge of business practices and I'm not aware of anyone that gets away with it for long.

[reefwars]

to be honest sponsors can do alot more to better themselves on canreef , seems to me to be a waste of money if you dont post, dont sell ,dont do anything....

i find it funny that i read through the sponsors list and i bet just about them all post very little about anything.

if sponsors are worried about members taking up the sell sections they should post their products themselves too, i rarely ever see frags for sale by any of the sponsors, none of them post pics or videos.

i can guarantee for a fact that i take no business away from the lfs here in calgary because my coral comes from there....where else would it come from??

im currently helping 2 stores in town do better business and bring in more customers as i know so many reefers and new reefers, one of the stores im talking into doing a sponsorship with canreef to help with his online business.

just so know one gets the wrong idea im a hobbyst always have been for years im about collecting coral, i have over 50 colonies of zoa and palys that i frag reguarily and never sell out ,ive researched and practised to the point where i can grow them fast.

anyone who knows me knows im up for a trade before cash , but alot of people refer to just buy coral.

as levi mentioned earlier currently in calgary there is not one place in town out of 6 stores to buy zoa frags(im not including coral master in this list, i dont think he does much for zoas anyways), its colonies only. none of the stores are willing to frag and its buy the $150 colonie or go elsewhere. to me and im sure many others that kinda sucks as sometimes i dont need 200 heads of watermelon zoas to get the 5 polyps of blue i did like.

if i have to buy a large colonie of something you can better believe ill be willing to frag it to offset the cost....anyone would.

also anyone whos been to my house knows i only have a 90g tank and a 50g fragtank so by no means a big commercial operation hell not even a basement operatation.




thought i should clear this up as it seems my name is getting thrown into this....:neutral:

[sphelps]

Those were simply examples. Avatars and special icons wouldn't cost anything. If the amount got high enough they could put part of the proceeds towards the purchase of a piece of equipment to auction off. Members could donate frags towards a draw to contributing members. If part of the vendor sponsorship fee was lowered due to member contributions, maybe some vendors would donate items or pass along discounts as a thank you to those members. These are all just ideas. You just have to think outside the box.

We have avatars so are you thinking some shouldn't have them or some should have bigger ones? Special icons? Like "I'm Special"? Who cares, like I said unless the site actually needs the contributions it's a waste. Lowering vendors fees for the exchange of vendor donations doesn't get you anywhere, both the site and the vendors end up with the same net. Plus you must think peoples time is worthless, as all those things will take time to organize and arrange each month or whatever. Time is money. I can also assure you while this might sound great for so called "premium members" plenty people will be left out and p'd off about so called privileges. And vendors rarely care for such things either, if they want to give things away it would be in there best interest not to exclude anyone or focus on actual customers. And do you really think regular members will donate items to be given to premium members?

Trust me you're not thinking outside the box, you're talking about creating a very small box and forgetting about everything outside of it.

[Seriak]

We have avatars so are you thinking some shouldn't have them or some should have bigger ones? Special icons? Like "I'm Special"? Who cares, like I said unless the site actually needs the contributions it's a waste. Lowering vendors fees for the exchange of vendor donations doesn't get you anywhere, both the site and the vendors end up with the same net. Plus you must think peoples time is worthless, as all those things will take time to organize and arrange each month or whatever. Time is money. I can also assure you while this might sound great for so called "premium members" plenty people will be left out and p'd off about so called privileges. And vendors rarely care for such things either, if they want to give things away it would be in there best interest not to exclude anyone or focus on actual customers. And do you really think regular members will donate items to be given to premium members?

Trust me you're not thinking outside the box, you're talking about creating a very small box and forgetting about everything outside of it.

If I give 10 friends a gift at Christmas and they in turn give me each a gift and we are all net zero. Was it a waste of time? The size of the box would be dependent on the members. At this time, we have no idea how big or small it would be. I think titus was right in at least throwing the idea out to a poll. :)

[sphelps]

Cool we can change the name to ChristmasReef

You guys want to be premium members forget about the title and money, go spend a little extra time helping out another member in need. That's what this site is about and that's how to contribute.

[dc4]

That all costs money and time my friend, you don't gain anything. Sponsors can't be expected to just donate items and credit to the site because the site brings in more money. As for editing you think mods will let you break rules cause you pay $20 a year. It wasn't removed so that it could be purchased back. Other sites may need donations to keep it going, or at least that's what the shady guy behind the scenes is telling you, Canreef isn't like that and I don't know why anyone would want it that way.

You're missing the point...

My post was not to say what would happen, it was simply to state what other sites do and what could be done here.

For example, lets say there is a $5-$10 optional monthly fee. If only a small fraction of members contribute, lets just say 100 ppl. That would generate $500-1000 per month more than the site gets now. Multiply that by 12 months, and thats an easy $6000-$12,000 a year.

I never said anything about sponsors donating items, simply the owner of the site can use those fees to run contests and give out promotional items like shirts, stickers, gift certs. (good for both members and sponsors). The costs would only be a fraction of the optional fees that would be received. Also, I would hardly call having an edit feature "breaking the rules".

All we are saying is that, there could be an OPTION, for a paid membership. Whether you like it or not has no bearing as you would choose to pay or not pay. If you dont pay, you are not penalized, you just carry on with your day as you normally would on canreef. I dont see what your arguement is.

[Aquattro]

Also, I would hardly call having an edit feature "breaking the rules".



Oh ya, big time rule breaking there. No editing. :)

edit: ever!!

[Seriak]

Oh ya, big time rule breaking there. No editing. :)

edit: ever!!

We all know that will never be a perk for anyone. I didn't even bother going there. :)

[Bblinks]

This is getting semi outta hand. I don't see anything wrong if some of the member wish to support. Canreef support avatars will be cool but it shouldn't give you "special previlages". Its a choice and not a must. If any member decides to contribute then he or she gets an avatar to show that they enjoy this forum and they are willing to go a step further to ensure others can enjoy this site as much as themselves, nothing wrong with that. Also this doen't mean they should lower the sponsorship cost for vendors, what for?

I don't see anything wrong with the site right now. We are still allow to buy and sell stuff, sometimes a member with a larger tank have more corals to sell so be it! I don't post too many for sale threads but I can tell you my corals are growing like crazy and I will be posting them on the site for sale and if the mods question about it I will be gladly to bring them into my house and show its definitely not a commercial operation or a side business.

However if the member contribution support program does come into effect, I would like to see some of the areas like TOTM do get updated on a timely fashion, you know just small stuff like that. Use the that money to better the site.

[Aquattro]

We all know that will never be a perk for anyone. I didn't even bother going there. :)

Well, if future upgrades allow easy distinction between forums, we would allow some and not others, rather than a blanket policy. For now, we don't have that option, so it's all or nothing, and nothing works best for us. We would prefer to be able to tweak the feature, and we do edit larger things for people, like indexing on build threads, etc. So if something really needs editing, contact us and we can do it for you, just not in the for sale threads.

[sphelps]

Well first no site similar to this charges $5-10 per month, $20 per year is normal. Then the problem comes to these paying members wanting something in return like say a month draw for something worth $50. 100 members (unlikely) = $2000 per year, = $167 per month. Then consider the time involved to set this all up. That's my argument, if you can't see it I'm sorry.

As for editing, cry all you want it was clearly removed for a reason. It was a privilege that came with responsibility mostly relating to not editing/removing items in for sale threads as per Canreef rules/guidelines. After many people broke this rule the privilege was removed. So yeah improper use of the edit feature is breaking the rules, if you cared to read them you would know this.

[dc4]

We all know that will never be a perk for anyone. I didn't even bother going there. :)

Lol, honestly, I could care less about an edit feature and have never complained about not having one.

Anyways, lets get back on topic about prefixes and we can discuss paid membership in a different poll/post. :wink:

[globaldesigns]

Just my 2 cents,

Vendors pay a nominal fee to have access to thousands of users, very low cost to doing business, without much effort or door knocking (cold calling). If LFS's and online vendors wanted to really benefit from their sponsorship, they should look at how to maximize their return, instead of complaining about competition or the house guys (if that is what is happening).

I am not a LFS, but am a businessman, and can say that I have done many forms of marketing techniques, offering something to entice awareness and/or need. Problem I find with most LFS or vendors on Canreef is their inability or unwillingness to either offer fair market pricing or even wanting to provide such to us in areas like Canreef. As I stated in another thread, what is with all the Hush Hush, and PM me for price. This tends to tell me that it isn't one price for all.... And before anyone jumps on me for that comment, I mean fair market price for all, and if they want to offer better to bigger or repeat clients, then albiet, that can be done. I tend to buy from people that openly express their product, service and pricing.

Personally I feel if the vendors concentrate more on their business and how to grow or maximize potential in arenas like this, instead of worrying about others, they may reap the rewards.

Lastly, in regards to the new system, doesn't really matter to me, I will work with what is supplied and abide by the rules. In regards to memberships to us, I will not say I would or wouldn't buy it. Not sure there, but will say that based on the fact this forum has been declining and over the past year I find it not as valuable, I am leaning towards not purchasing.

Just my point of view, nothing more.

[gregzz4]

Lol, honestly, I could care less about an edit feature and have never complained about not having one.

Anyways, lets get back on topic about prefixes and we can discuss paid membership in a different poll/post. :wink:
Thank you

And thanks Titus for spending so much time explaining to us why this was implemented in the first place
I hope you and the staff find a format that works well for you all
As I said in the beginning, I'll use whatever you come up with, and hope it's something simpler :wink:

[Ross]

You just have to think outside the box.

Some of my fish have thought to think outside the box and it hasnt ended well for them.
:razz:


At what fiscal point does this become a concern and sponsorship is requested of a user / small time dealer?

If I sold $2000 per year worth of merchendise out of my basment or garage it's not financially practical for a $1000+ sponsorship fee.

If there is enough justification to demand sponsorship, then perhaps a simple cease and desist letter is in order.
If that is ignored, send Revenue Canada after them for there "fair" share of taxes that should stop it pretty fast.

[Aquattro]

Some of my fish have thought to think outside the box and it hasnt ended well for them.
:razz:

.

Too funny :razz:

[Seriak]

Some of my fish have thought to think outside the box and it hasnt ended well for them.
:razz:


LMAO!

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Some of my fish have thought to think outside the box and it hasnt ended well for them.
:razz:


Hahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhaahhahahhahahaha hhahhahahahhahahhahahahahahhahahahha

[howdy20012002]

After reading this thread, I have no idea really what it is about anymore.
apparently it has become b*tch about whatever you want to thread.
what is the big deal about making a couple of more steps in trying to sell the item???? it takes 10 seconds - if that.
is it me, or am I missing something?
nothing was mentioned about vendors complaining or canreef needing money.
yet, it is what is being more discussed than anything.
if you are on here as often as most of us are, we all know the people are who are running in the grey area of business or not in business on here.
Having a slew of extra brand new equipment laying around doesn't really look like oversight, but an an attempt to make a bit of cash... and that will definitely affect the bottomline of the vendors.
members offering a few frags here and there is what makes canreef a great place for people to get a wide variety of various corals. Or people like Slick fork who spend hundreds of hours perfecting the breeding process and sell a few Captive bred fish now and then.
This I have no problem with.
however, someone that is constantly selling a wide variety of numerous frags on here is in direct competition with someone like Coral Master - who although may bring stuff in, also gets most of his frags from his own tanks.
I personally don't think we should have 2 levels of canreef or varying levels depending on how much you pay.
if it is so difficult to take that extra step on putting something up for sale - try kijiji or other forums to sell your stuff.
I think the staff here does a great job of balancing between the member's and sponsor's demands...I, for one, would not want the job.
once again, this place amazes me.
just my two cents
Neal

[hillegom]

My opinion has been stated by other members here so I won't repeat them.

I want to say that I am in line with the idea of posting the city in the title of the thread. Yes it will be in the sellers signature, or below the avatar, but I would have to open the thread to read that.
If some thing was for sale in Calgary, I don't want to travel there to buy it, but I have wasted my time by opening and reading the post.

[Aquattro]

My opinion has been stated by other members here so I won't repeat them.

I want to say that I am in line with the idea of posting the city in the title of the thread. Yes it will be in the sellers signature, or below the avatar, but I would have to open the thread to read that.
If some thing was for sale in Calgary, I don't want to travel there to buy it, but I have wasted my time by opening and reading the post.

Even if it's in Calgary, the seller may ship, so it doesn't matter. That's not something we're going to enforce. The info is there, if you don't want to open a post for some item that' you're interested in, then I guess someone else buys it :)

[waynemah]

I think the general consensus is we want a slightly more readable format...

Personally, I'll follow the rules the best I can and life goes on. I think there hasn't been any over reactions thus far. Lots of good views and some bitterness towards members having opinions :twised:... I'm sure the moderators / owners will take everything into consideration and do the best they can with it.

I'm just happy to be part of a forum that listens to it's members.

[jorjef]

I'm really getting tired of coming back to this thread, I wish it would get closed. lol ........ Ya ya I know "you don't have to open it and continue reading it" Unfortunatly I suffer from GLCRWDBI "gotta look at the car wreck when I drive by itis"

[gregzz4]

Sounds like to need to upgrade to a suite and get some decent room service :smile:

[hillegom]

Even if it's in Calgary, the seller may ship, so it doesn't matter. That's not something we're going to enforce. The info is there, if you don't want to open a post for some item that' you're interested in, then I guess someone else buys it :)

I have bought dry goods and had them shipped, I'm not adverse to having something shipped.
But sometimes I'm in a hurry and don't want to waste my time.
I try to buy local.
I know I'm not the only one with this view. :)

[Aquattro]

I know I'm not the only one with this view. :)

I know, but we ask for enough without enforcing the addition of info that's already provided elsewhere. If sellers want to add it, fine, if not, that's fine too.

[gregzz4]

And it's not the topic of this thread :razz:

[Aquattro]

And it's not the topic of this thread :razz:

Ya, and that !! lol

[titus]

Hello,

Thanks to all the comments and discussions. There has been a lot of feedback and details for us to think of. What I'd do is to investigate for now how to remove the prefix from appearing on the New Posts or Today's Posts result.

I'd also consider utilizing a more slimmed down version of prefixes such as:
For Sale
For Trade
Want To Buy
Group Buy

Anything else?

Titus

[MKLKT]

For Free?

[RedCoralEdmonton]

Lol this was a funny read.... and for the record I have never complained about anybody selling frags/equipment.... for those of you who know me, I encourage anyone to sell frags and specialty coral because I am a hobbiest first and a businessman second....and we arent hurting by the little guy trying to cover his costs, where do you think that fragging money goes anyways ;)

but getting back to Dennys comment about no LFS selling frags or taking pictures..... we do both.... just sayin' lol

Steve

[reefwars]

Lol this was a funny read.... and for the record I have never complained about anybody selling frags/equipment.... for those of you who know me, I encourage anyone to sell frags and specialty coral because I am a hobbiest first and a businessman second....and we arent hurting by the little guy trying to cover his costs, where do you think that fragging money goes anyways ;)

but getting back to Dennys comment about no LFS selling frags or taking pictures..... we do both.... just sayin' lol

Steve of the stores


and thats what i miss about edmonton is most of the stores frag :) your store is a prime example of what needs to be here in the city:)

[cuz]

of the stores


and thats what i miss about edmonton is most of the stores frag :) your store is a prime example of what needs to be here in the city:)

good point!! someone should open a red coral calgary!!or heck even in Lethbridge would be cool!!:redface:




lol sorry had to!!

[gregzz4]

Hello,

Thanks to all the comments and discussions. There has been a lot of feedback and details for us to think of. What I'd do is to investigate for now how to remove the prefix from appearing on the New Posts or Today's Posts result.

I'd also consider utilizing a more slimmed down version of prefixes such as:
For Sale
For Trade
Want To Buy
Group Buy

Anything else?

Titus

For Free?
Getting back to topic ...

Unless someone has any other prefix suggestions, I think that probably covers it Titus

[Aquattro]

where do you think that fragging money goes anyways ;)


Somebody gets it :)

[gobytron]

Locally, you can always choose to sell your wares elsewhere.
BCaquaria for example.

I'm sure that the rest of Canada has similar options to be explored.

[titus]

Hello,

Considering there is a better alternative called Forum Fields, I have just turned the Prefix off. However I wouldn't be doing this add on until we have vBulletin 4.

Titus