Tank crashing...could it be due to these?

[Son Of Skyline]

So half my acros have been suffering from RTN this past month. Some corals will lose branches suddenly, then the RTN will stop, then start again a couple weeks later...then stop again. Some corals are slowly receding from the base. Tips are dieing on others.

This coincides to two things I can think of. One, I started using this cheapo brand superglue gel for frags. Two, I stuck a moderately rusted wire cutter in my tank a couple times to cut some frags.

Could any of these two things cause what's happening? My water tests fine and I haven't made any changes to my setup.

TIA...

[One_Divided]

Mason, I would find those things quite unlikely.. As long as the super glue is cyanoacrylate, it should be fine. As for the rusty cutters, I think just about everyone puts something slightly rusty in their tanks from time to time. It has never bugged me, but on the other hand; my tank aint doing to great right now either!

It sounds more to me like some parameter peaking or dropping every once in a while. I would just keep a close eye on any fluctuations throughout the day/week.. Sounds like you have a problem that is quite inconsistant... I would also consider the possibility of some type of bacteria that is attacking the acros.. Have you done any large scale water changes? Maybe a 30-40% is in order...

hope I can help!


-Adam

[Aquattro]

Mason, let me know when you figure it out, I've been dealing with this for months. I have had rust in th etank from my steel stand, but it's never been an issue before. Some people are suggesting high alk as a source of this problem. I've treated the tank with antibiotics, lowered the temp, added PO4 sponge, etc. Things may be looking better, but it's too early to tell. And if things have turned around for me, I couldn't tell you what did it!!
If you come up with something, let me know !

[Tropical Paradise]

hi everyone,

I've been experiencing the same problem and lost some frags over last several months. First, polyp stop expanding, then tissue loss. Algae would grow over the skeleton and then the whole frag is gone. Mine did not RTN but more like s STN (slow) It is quite frustrating :mad: :cry: .

John from J&L suggested that it may be due to temperature flutation. I kinda doubt it. Mine reading is between 79-82f. Another cause could be low pH at night: my pH gets as low as 7.6 at night. For the last two weeks, I've been dripping Kalk at night to keep pH above 8.0.

Also, I've begin to test Mg level in the tank. I found out that my Mg was only 900 (using Salifert). Natural seawater Mg level is 1200-1400ppm. I tested Instant Ocean makeup water and found only 900ppm Mg. I've been adding Kent Marine Tech M to raise it up to 1100ppm. I have some "micro" frags that I am trying to save, and they are showing new growth after I adjusted my Mg level. I think Mg was most likely the case. Test your Mg level and see if this helps.

[Samw]

Anyone running reverse photoperiod lighting on their sumps/refugiums experience this problem?

[Tropical Paradise]

Sam,

I am running reverse photo period on my refugium.

:cool:

[kari]

Just started running reverse photoperiod lighting about 2 weeks ago. Before that it was on 24/7. Nothing out of the oridinary here yet.

[zulu_principle]

Sam

Have you seen anything that suggests it could be a problem ??

Or just looking for a common thread.


Wendell

[TANGOMAN]

Just "throwin' ideas" around, could source water be a contributing factor ?
Are you using r/o ? I know I have all kinds of problems this time of year and I figured it must be due to spring run off ?

[Son Of Skyline]

Aw man...can't believe so many of us are having similar problems!

Thanks everyone. I guess the first thing I should check out is my nighttime pH (and i just sold my pH monitor!!!). Come to think of it I did stop using kalk about a couple months ago, however i've gone without kalk in the past and had no problems.

Not sure about the RO water but my prefilters were pretty dirty so I just replaced them (thanks Jesse!). I've heard that i should periodically "flush" my RO membrane but i have no idea how to do it on my unit. Algae isn't a big problems these days though.

I want to try, but I'm kinda scared of doing a huge water change. My rbta seems to get pretty ****ed off even when i do my standard 4gal change! Is everyone's rbta as sensitive as mine?

I'm not using a refugium or any reverse photoperiod. If I find my pH is low then maybe this is a good idea.

Haven't checked my Mg in awhile so I'll definitely have to do this.

Hopefully we'll all be able to figure our tanks out!

[Samw]

Sam

Have you seen anything that suggests it could be a problem ??

Or just looking for a common thread.


Wendell


Hi Wendell. Trying to determine if low PH during the night time has any effect. When I had problems with Acros in the past (losing about 80% of them), it was either low night-time ph (< 7.4) or high nitrate (>75). These days, I have no more problems with Acros as I have been able to get my nitrates down to 0-5 and have increaed my PH due to installing a Kalk dispenser. So I don't know which factor fixed it.

[StirCrazy]

Sam, my PH is always lower then Brads for some reason (I am plagued with a 7.9 PH) and i don't show any of the things that he did.

Steve

[Doug]

As Brad mentioned, some of the threads on RC, regarding higher alk. levels are pretty intersting. RTN seems more prevelent lately. Wonder if it has anything to do with the higher usage of co2 reactors on sps tanks and the usual higher alkalinity levels from such? :confused:

[BCOrchidGuy]

I read in one of the popular marine aquarium magazines that corals are much more likely to have problems when the water temp is 80-82 than when the water is 76-78. At the lower temperature there was no spread of disease, no problems with tissue loss etc, at the higher temp if one coral got sick, they all did.

Just food for thought.

Doug

[StirCrazy]

As Brad mentioned, some of the threads on RC, regarding higher alk. levels are pretty intersting. RTN seems more prevelent lately. Wonder if it has anything to do with the higher usage of co2 reactors on sps tanks and the usual higher alkalinity levels from such? :confused:

I think there has to be more to it than just high alk... I think it is a combanation of things.

Steve

[Aquattro]

I think there has to be more to it than just high alk... I think it is a combanation of things.

Steve

Listen to Steve, he's always right. :rolleyes:

[StirCrazy]

I think there has to be more to it than just high alk... I think it is a combanation of things.

Steve

Listen to Steve, he's always right. :rolleyes:

think about it :rolleyes: my alk is sky high all the time.. my temp is high... gesh.. :rolleyes: all I am friggin saying is that to many people are trying to pin it on one thing.

[Son Of Skyline]

Well, my tank hits 82f normally and has always been that way. I don't think it's my temp. My alk has been at 3.66 meq/L for quite some time. Not a high number for alk. I'm still working on testing the nighttime pH and salinity.

I'm thinking like Steve right now...perhaps there's more than one factor causing problems. I'm hoping however that it is one factor, otherwise I dunno if I'll ever figure it out.

[Aquattro]

Mason, do you run any PO4 sponge? Even though I can't measure any PO4 in my tank, I know it goes in with the food. I also know it wsn't coming out in any appreciable amount. I added phosban, and it looks like things might be coming around. I have got my temp below 80F, dosed doxycycline for 3 days, run phosban, make sure alk stays under 3.5, feed lightly, etc. So I really have no idea which one or more things is doing what. Oh, I also treated for red bugs. Next week I'll be doing a 100g water change. So much fun!! :razz:

[Delphinus]

I have similar problems too. Thinking my RO is spent although I haven't had a chance to borrow a TDS yet to confirm my theory (bought a new membrane and prefilters anyhow since it's been >2 years so the membrane has to be due anyhow). Most pieces are fine but 2 or 3 pieces just seem to be plaqued with some kind of slow recession. Very annoying/disappointing. I think I might try the phosban next. I figure the only way PO4 would be getting out of my system is via the little bit of caulerpa that I try to prune back, or maybe into the mangroves (but those things are soooo slow growing that can't be a viable method of PO4 reduction).

Brad what did you do to treat your red bugs? (Is there a thread that my short-term memory has forgotten about?)

I've also been wondering about reactor media, I've only topped up my media over time, which means there must be some old media down near the bottom of the reactor ...

[Aquattro]

Tony, bugs treated with Interceptor, the heart worm med from the thread on RC and RDO.
My Ro is fine, TDS reads zero. I changed my reactor media completely before any of this happened. Maybe bad media? Don't think so....

[mediaone]

Brad Wrote "I also know it wasn't coming out in any appreciable amount."

I am curious how you knew that phosphate was not exiting in an appreciable amount? Any interesting test I don't know about.

[Aquattro]

Brad Wrote "I also know it wasn't coming out in any appreciable amount."

I am curious how you knew that phosphate was not exiting in an appreciable amount? Any interesting test I don't know about.

No, nothing cutting edge. Since I use no macro algae, and kalk only sparingly, this makes me confident that PO4 input is greater than export. The import is confirmed by fairly heavy feeding on my part.

[Son Of Skyline]

Interesting. I've never thought about PO4 and how it might be affecting my system. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try a sponge. What's doxycycline?

[Aquattro]

Interesting. I've never thought about PO4 and how it might be affecting my system. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try a sponge. What's doxycycline?

Mason, doxycycline is an antibiotic prescribed for vibrio infections. Julian Sprung first announced it for treating elegance corals, and I researched it a lot before dosing. It isn't something I would recommend as a first (or second) course of action. I found that if I scratched my arm while working in my tank, I would get a large blistered infection at the site of skin breakage. This led me to believe that I might have an excess of vibrio bacteria in my tank. With the chain of events (DSB removal, high temps, excess SPS mucous), this was feasible for me. After treating, I did still experience some tissue loss. I have also worked at keeping my temp below 80, as this inhibits vibrio activity (so I've read).
I have also had a outbreak of algae in my (attached) frag tank, leading me to believe nutrients are at least partially to blame. NO3 is not detectable, and never has been. PO4 is the same, but not all PO4 is detectable. I believe this is the nutrient in question. And before anyone asks for proof, all I have is "guessing".
I've become very frustrated with all of this, and it's been going on for some time. I'm open to any suggestions at this point, although it looks like I haven't lost any tissue for about 5 days. And to reiterate, it is only acropora sp. SPS that are having this problem.

[Diomedes]

Interesting problem...but I don't see how phosphates that aren't being detected are contributing to the RTN problem.
My reasoning...
Whether it is DOP(Dissolved Organic PO4), DIP(inorganic) , POP(particulate organic), PIP (particulate inorganic)... These types of phosphates are linked through a cycle in your aquarium. If you are reading a zero when measuring DIP (most test kits - Salifert incl.) then
it is unlikely that your other phosphate based constituents are out of control.
There is a neat article with a brief display of these cycling PO4 forms:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/eb/

This doxycycline business is kinda freaky...I wonder how Julian came to these conclusions? (doxycycline/nitrofuazone and elegance corals) and how they apply to RTN in SPS corals. I would love to see his research but there doesn't seem to be any...I would appreciate a link because I couldn't find anything more than his speculation about the rising mortalities among elegance corals.

Brad, Mason,
What about the growth of your acros and other SPS and their changing water flow requirements as they become larger? I know you have been doing this a long time, but are these colonies getting larger or are you fragging them a lot?

What are your pH fluctuations between day and night? Have you considered turning your reactors off(down?) at night or dripping Kalk only at night to compensate for low nighttime pH?

Hope these thoughts help...

Stephen

[Aquattro]

It looks like Julian has kept his research "secret", because I couldn't find it. Eric Borneman actually did an article refuting Julian's claims, but some people found that it did slow/stop RTN in acros.
As for size, no, I don't see any correlation to flow. I have always adjusted flow to compensate for growth, and this STN affects frags just as often as colonies in my tank. Also, my birdsnest is getting to be the size of a soccer ball, and does not show any tissue loss.
My pH is fairly constant over 24hrs. never going below 7.9. My reactor discharges into a high flow area right above the skimmer intake, so CO2 doesn't seem to have negative effects. However, I have turned the reactor down anyway, in an effort to reduce alkalinity. I have about 7000GPH of flow in a 150g tank, and the surface agitation keeps the gas exchange movin'!
The only other info I've found to explain this tissue loss is PO4 accumulation. I agree with you about PO4 cycles, but I don't have any better ideas to follow. And I certainly didn't see the harm in adding a PO4 sponge to remove my invisible phosphates! The trouble with my entire procedure is that in a desparate attempt to save my corals, I make multiple changes over a week. If/when this all stops, I won't know which change/combo eliminated the problem.
I gave someone a bunch a frags as insurance, and they are all doing well in his (newer) tank. So what does that indicate? Nothing maybe, but it does seemto be something in my water, whether chemical, biological or physical.

[Doug]

I think there has to be more to it than just high alk... I think it is a combanation of things.

Steve

Most likely correct Steve, however some interesting reading on lowering alkalinity and the reversal of RTN, by some very experienced sps keepers. Also, the theory, is backed up by many German sps reefers, according to the threads.

[Son Of Skyline]

I think there has to be more to it than just high alk... I think it is a combanation of things.

Steve

Most likely correct Steve, however some interesting reading on lowering alkalinity and the reversal of RTN, by some very experienced sps keepers. Also, the theory, is backed up by many German sps reefers, according to the threads.


So what are these people considering as a lower, RTN reversing alk setting?

[Aquattro]

So what are these people considering as a lower, RTN reversing alk setting?

I believe 8 or 9 was suggested. Although you're in that range already, correct?

[Delphinus]

D'oh! I've forgotten the dKH to meq/l conversion. Is it 2.8? I.e., "8 or 9" is about "3.0 meq/l"?

How do you go about lowering your alk to 3.0 while maintaining Ca around 400? I've been targetting levels of 4.0 and 400, if I back off the reactor I sort of foresee it settling out at around 3.0 and 300.

I suppose a little slower growth couldn't hurt in my case since I'm dealing with a 75g with severe real estate issues at it is anyhow.

[Aquattro]

Yes, 2.8 is the conversion factor.

[Doug]

As Brad mentioned, around 8 or 9dkh as a top end. I have yet to figure out how to do that with my reactor, as not matter what I set it at, the tank alk. stays at 13dkh.

Also like Steve, there are some in the same threads that dispute these claims. I think more time is needed on this, as I remember when it was said we were running our alk. to low at 8dkh and needed to run at around 12dkh to help the sps colour.

:confused: Perhaps this was a self preservation move from the sps corals, as the alk. was raised. :lol:

[Doug]

As for my personal beliefs from my own limited sps experience and the reading of a million sps threads, :lol: ,

I do not like the higher temps that are promoted by some but have always run under 80, which follows the "preachings" of many very experienced aquarists, like Terry Siegel, Richard Harker, Greg Schiemer and others.

I also think the fruit stand overcrowded sps tanks have more RTN cases than the sparce look, letting the large growing sps colonies mature. It will be interesting to see down the road if tanks like Richard Harkers or Jerels, {Spanky}, do in the long run.

RTN is also an overused word, for the passing of corals that could have died for many other reasons. {perhaps like something being released from Brads sandbed disturbance for instance}.

Anyhow, just think of a packed sps tank, with alkalinity being overdriven to higher levels, temps run in the high end range and being blasted with high light to promote growth and colour. Perhaps its no wonder some of them get sick in our tanks.

To me, they are also very finicky at times. You look at them wrong and they bleach. :lol: Crap, no matter how many times I tried, I could not get montipora caps from Mikes 180, with 400w bulbs, to stop bleaching under my new Radiums. We also have a nice acro colony, that we can move back and forth between us, but every frag we have tried has bleached.

I sometimes laugh to myself when I think of Bobs anology, {is that a correct word}, of sps. Just fuzzy sticks that dont move. :lol:

Then I look at tanks like Brads before his problems and some other beautiful sps tanks here, or my favorite still, that picture Steve took of his digita, and you think its all worthwhile. :biggrin:

[Son Of Skyline]

Ok here's what I have so far...

Just calibrated and hooked up a pH monitor to the tank (thanks Shane!). As of 9:00pm it reads 8.07. Seems really low so I might go out and get more calibration fluid tomorrow and recalibrate in case I messed up the first time.

Alk: 10.9 dkh...higher than the "recommended" 8-9, but still within normal boundaries.

Ca: 380ppm...normal.

SG: 1.022 with a refractometer...a little low maybe?

Mg: 1140ppm...lower than the recommended 1300ppm so I dosed a little bit of Mg. Gonna test again tomorrow.

Did a 10% water change today, and I'm going to keep doing water changes every couple days for now.

Got some phosphate sponge. It's running through an Aquaclear 150. Pretty small but it's all I could dig up in the junk box.

One thing I still don't understand though, is why only our acropora are being affected. If there were water quality problems, wouldn't it affect all the corals?

That's all for today. The battle continues tomorrow.

[Son Of Skyline]

Brad, Mason,
What about the growth of your acros and other SPS and their changing water flow requirements as they become larger? I know you have been doing this a long time, but are these colonies getting larger or are you fragging them a lot?



I'm not sure if the flow requirements are an issue here since it involves acropora of all sizes in all areas of my tank. But then again...I'm not ruling anything out at this point. I do have this covered though...I recently increased flow with a better wavemaker.

[Aquattro]

Mason, do you have any xenia? I had some that I couldn't kill before and could never get rid of. I realized lately that it has died off on it's own. I also notice my hammer doesn't extend like it used to. All other corals are fine though. Not sure why it's just the acro... :neutral:

[Son Of Skyline]

Mason, do you have any xenia? I had some that I couldn't kill before and could never get rid of. I realized lately that it has died off on it's own. I also notice my hammer doesn't extend like it used to. All other corals are fine though. Not sure why it's just the acro... :neutral:


Yup, I have xenia. Mine aren't affected though. My xenia still looks good and is still spreading :rolleyes:

[Son Of Skyline]

Ok....

Fri I did a 12gal (around 10%) wc, and I did an 8gal change on Sat. I ran the phosphate sponge for a couple days, but I don't think it did anything as the sponge media looked as good as new when I pulled it out.

My pH has been fluctuating from 7.9 to 8.1 daily. Not worried about the pH at this point.

I've been slowly increasing the salinity. I'm up to 1.023 now and I'm working towards 1.025 by Wednesday.

One thing I never thought about (still trying to cover all bases) is the possibility of electrical current in the tank. I don't have a grounding probe and I did feel some stray voltage on occasion in the past. Could something like this affect the life in the tank?

I haven't noticed any continued tissue recession over the weekend so that's a good sign, however my problems have been coming and going since they began.

Since my water parameters test ok, I guess the next logical step is to replace my carbon (can't hurt), and just keep doing constant water changes. I'm shooting for a 100% change over the course of 2 weeks.

Brad, did water changes not help at all in your case? What kind of water changes (outside of regular maintenance) did u try?

[Aquattro]

Brad, did water changes not help at all in your case? What kind of water changes (outside of regular maintenance) did u try?

I did weekly 20g changes for about 6 weeks and I found that made it worse. Although stopping these frequent changes didn't make it better. I am going to do a 100g change tonight or tomorrow, just for fun. Overall, my tank seems to be looking better for the last 2 weeks.

What type of PO4 sponge did you use? I am using Phosban, which lasts a lot longer than the Al based products.

[Son Of Skyline]

Let me know how the huge change goes. Meanwhile I'm gonna do about the same amount over the course of a week or two.

I used Kent Phosphate Sponge. I was told it changes colour when it's absorbing phosphate, but mine stayed clean as new over two days. Oh well, it was worth a shot. I still have some so I might as well use it up just for kicks.



Brad, did water changes not help at all in your case? What kind of water changes (outside of regular maintenance) did u try?

I did weekly 20g changes for about 6 weeks and I found that made it worse. Although stopping these frequent changes didn't make it better. I am going to do a 100g change tonight or tomorrow, just for fun. Overall, my tank seems to be looking better for the last 2 weeks.

What type of PO4 sponge did you use? I am using Phosban, which lasts a lot longer than the Al based products.