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View Full Version : Beananimal/ Herbie Hybrid Observation - Help?


justincgdick
06-10-2012, 04:12 PM
So I have a Beananimal on my 165 but... I set mine up like a Herbie. One drain is fully submerged about 1/3 of the way from the top of the OF, another open standpipe at the waterline you wish to maintain, and the third open at the MAX ever water line. I just had to test that the open standpipes will handle the entire flow if it ever gets to that point. It handled it no problem so I can't see the reason for the sanitary tees, air line, and the "flush" feature.

I'm also not sure how it happens, but my system finds this balance where the main drain is full syphon and the water ISN'T trickling down the open standpipe. It just floats in between... meaning it's a perfect balance. I thought the water would eventually drop the the level of the main drain, or increase and begin to trickle down the open pipe, but it hasn't in days.

Can anyone explain how this happens to me? I would assume I managed to find a perfect balance, but it seems there are other forces at hand. It's too easy to set it, and I can adjust my gate valve a smidge and it will re set to the same point. Is there some sort of force and effect here where the gravity and water work together to reach this equilibrium? I know it sounds odd, but I've got a darn good understanding of water dynamics, overflows, etc., but finding this balance by fluke after messing with my system doesn't seem likely.

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x409/justincgdick/photo-107.jpg

Seth81
06-27-2012, 12:57 PM
It's pretty simple really no magic involved. Basically as the water level increases past the level of the main drain the water pressure increases pushing more flow through the main drain. In other words, the amount of water flowing through the main drain when the water level is lets say 10 cm above the main drain is more then the flow when the water is only 1 cm above the main drain.

I personally only have two stnand pipes @ 1.5", my main drain with the gate valve fully open is more then enough to handle 1000 GPH without going into full siphon. The noise is horribble though, so I cut it back to about 10% open which causes the water level to be just at my secondary stand pipe. I find that I need to have some flow through the secondary pipe to reduce the noise. The way I figure is that if the water ever goes above the secondary stand pipe it will create a full siphon and will be more then enough capacity.

Madmak
06-28-2012, 09:46 PM
A true Bean Animal is a combination of safety and low noise. The full siphon starts and ends under water, very quiet. The secondary also starts and ends under water but is meant to carry very little water, also very quiet. The airline vent is a safety measure to allow the secondary to become a full siphon if the water level rises above the vent line. The third pipe is purely an emergency and stays dry. If you hear this pipe it is time to find a problem.

I love the design.

http://img.tapatalk.com/464b85f3-d122-b688.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/464b85f3-d167-5fdd.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/464b85f3-d1da-6f11.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/464b85f3-d23b-2e2d.jpg

Sunee
06-28-2012, 10:00 PM
Basically you have a Herbie with 2 emergency drains instead of just one (a good thing). It appears you have sized your drains large enough that your primary drain can take the full flow of your return pump without having to trickle down your secondary drain. If it is maintaining the level and is quiet I wouldn't worry about it.

justincgdick
07-02-2012, 05:27 AM
Oh, I'm not worried at all. It works like a charm. And yes, the two open drains can take the full flow each, even as open standpipes sucking air.

I'm not really sure I follow all the down turned sanitary tees in the Beananimal. The second drain, the one I left open would act the same as far as I can tell. Maybe it's a touch quieter with the pipe being under water. I suppose you wouldn't hear the trickle as much. Besides that though, mine flushes just the same if the flow totally plugs the second drain. Just like the Beananimal drain flushed when the airline is underwater. I'm not sure that the difference in sound warrants all the extra piping. My first and third drains are essentially identical. My first is open pointing up, but running at full syphon so there's no difference if you have it down turned, and the third is just open.

The only huge difference between mine and the Beananimal is the ability to use a ball valve on the BA because you don't need to be very precise on the second drain as even with a bit of extra water it masks the sound (being under water). My gate valve is precise enough that the trickle is so small in the second drain that it is silent, or I get it adjusted perfectly and the water level floats just below the second drain, but also doesn't fall to the height of the full syphon. I'm sure the gate valve would be cheaper than all the tees and airline connectors, plus less room is needed.

Agreed that the Beananimal is a fantastic system. It's just bulky and harder to build than three sticks of pipe.

Madmak
07-02-2012, 06:09 AM
There is also quite a difference in start up noise and duration between the Herbie and Bean Animal. A Bean Animal typically balances itself and purges all the air out in under a minute, Herbies generally take a bit longer. This is always a noisy process.

A full siphon drain carries the maximum amount of water possible. With the downturned elbow up top in the overflow everything is silent. Open pipes are not silent. The secondary drain is essentially an open pipe due to the vent. You tune the main siphon to take 99% of the return pump's water, from the down turned elbow to the submerged bottom exit. This lets 1% of the water down the secondary which is near silent as the only place for noise to escape is through the vent. When a blockage occurs in the main siphon the water level in the overflow rises. When it reaches and submerges the vent line it turns the secondary in to a full siphon and quickly drains the overflow. Very safe backup system. The third pipe is just an emergency drain meant to stay above the maximum overflow water line and dry at all times. It is only used if there is a blockage is both the primary and secondary drains.

The sanitary Ts are not required, normal Ts work just fine. Your tank is drilled through the bottom do no Ts are needed for Herbie or Bean Animal styles. The Ts in a Bean Animal are also there to provide access to clean the pipes occasionally. Herbie style drains are quiet and safe, Bean Animal Style drains are quieter and safer.

IMO a Bean Animal style drain on an external coast to coast overflow can't be beat for performance, safety, or noise level.

justincgdick
07-02-2012, 06:18 AM
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x409/justincgdick/photo-107.jpg

The drain on the left is under water, running at full syphon. It's completely silent. What's the point of the tees in the Beananimal and what does it do to make the system more quiet than mine?

The second drain is open, yes, but in the pic the system is balanced and no water is even going down it. Normally it would have a trickle, but it just so happened to balance that way. The only thing the beananimal does different is turn the opening down and use an airline to flush the overflow if the water level gets too high during a plugged main drain. The water plugs the airline and causes the drain to flush. If my main drain plugs the water level rises and flows down the second drain as a durso. If the water rises too high it flushes too as it transitions to a full syphon.

So is the only real differences are that mine will make noise from the slight trickle in the second pipe and mine is noisy IF the main drain is clogged and the secondary is acting as an open standpipe drain? I suppose the Beananimal would be silent when that is happening, but I can't see how that's a good thing. You could have a clogged main drain and not notice while mine would be loud as heck as it sucks air.

gregzz4
07-02-2012, 06:35 AM
I'm not clear on where you are going with this ...
Maybe I'm just tired, but I can't tell why you posted :razz:

Are you questioning the usage / setup of the Bean / Herbie, or are you just trying to understand how your own unit is working ?

There are Huge amounts of threads Online where you can discuss how the Bean and Herbie overflows work

So, are you looking for help, or are you posting 'cause you don't like it ?

Sorry if I don't catch the meaning of your original post, but I don't see what the problem is when you first posted that it works just fine .....

Madmak
07-02-2012, 06:37 AM
The Ts are for cleaning only, nothing else, an elbow would work if the holes were on the back of the tank.

When a BA secondary goes in and out of full siphon it is loud as heck and signals trouble.

What you have going there is a bit of an anomaly, it's pretty rare to set an open pipe to drain at a rate constant enough to keep an overflow box at a consistent level. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. With three stand pipes it has the same safety factor as a Bean Animal. The only thing you could gain with some elbows is maybe a minimal noise difference when the secondary gets used.

What do the other ends of those stand pipes drain in to? Under water in your sump? Above the water in your sump? In to socks?

justincgdick
07-02-2012, 07:28 AM
I'm not clear on where you are going with this ...
Maybe I'm just tired, but I can't tell why you posted :razz:

Are you questioning the usage / setup of the Bean / Herbie, or are you just trying to understand how your own unit is working ?

There are Huge amounts of threads Online where you can discuss how the Bean and Herbie overflows work

So, are you looking for help, or are you posting 'cause you don't like it ?

Sorry if I don't catch the meaning of your original post, but I don't see what the problem is when you first posted that it works just fine .....

Originally I was just looking for the reason my water level settle below the second drain, but with the main drain running at full syphon. But the second poster above pretty much confirmed what I was thinking. But then there were a few posts about stuff that didn't really have to do with my original question, but I ran with it anyway.

I'm not posting that I don't like it at all, I love it (Beananimal). I'm just not sure why it's a bit more complicated. There is no problem, it does work just fine. Doesn't mean I can't discuss it regardless.


The Ts are for cleaning only, nothing else, an elbow would work if the holes were on the back of the tank.

When a BA secondary goes in and out of full siphon it is loud as heck and signals trouble.

What you have going there is a bit of an anomaly, it's pretty rare to set an open pipe to drain at a rate constant enough to keep an overflow box at a consistent level. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. With three stand pipes it has the same safety factor as a Bean Animal. The only thing you could gain with some elbows is maybe a minimal noise difference when the secondary gets used.

What do the other ends of those stand pipes drain in to? Under water in your sump? Above the water in your sump? In to socks?

Okay, so there really isn't much difference between what I have going an a Beananimal in the way it really works. I just didn't know why Beananimal himself decided the drains needed to be pointed back down towards the bottom of the overflow. Mine works the same way with the submerged main drain and the two open pipes.

The main drain drains into a filter sock, but the opening is under water so there is no noise. The other two hang above the water but any trickle is so small I can't hear it. When the main clogs it's loud as heck, but that's good so I know something is wrong.

Madmak
07-02-2012, 07:40 AM
:)

I would name your design before someone else does! I shake my head every time I type Durso, Herbie, or Bean Animal in reference to a plumbing method.

justincgdick
07-02-2012, 07:55 AM
:)

I would name your design before someone else does! I shake my head every time I type Durso, Herbie, or Bean Animal in reference to a plumbing method.

Aha, I'm not sure it's a new method. My name's Dick, but I'm not sure "Dick Drain" or any other reference to Dick and plumbing is appropriate anyway. :lol:

gregzz4
07-02-2012, 08:17 AM
This is a whole conversation I wish I had not gotten into in the first place :mrgreen::mrgreen: