What to do - thoughts appreciated

[gregzz4]

Our tank has had salt in it now for 2 weeks and the sand cloud from Thursday night has cleared. All params are stable and very close to what I'd like to see
79.9 - 80.3 F
pH 8.13
Silicates 0
Copper 0
NH3 0
NO2 0
NO3 0
PO4 0
KH 9
Ca 460
Mg 1350
Sg 1.026

So now I have a decision to make;
1 - Start off with some easy softies and feed them to seed the tank ( plus QT some fish ) or ...
2 - QT a fish or 2 and start seeding the tank with them next month

Choice 1 is obviously the more costly risk, but will give fish something to come home to
Choice 2 will probably seed more readily and be less risky for this beginner, but then I'll have to wait for a QT cycle before adding anything to the DT

In the meantime I have a big ball of chaeto in it's tank and I'm getting some small branching algae on the LR and a hi flow area of glass
If I add any kind of CUC right now, it would be just a snail or 2 as I wouldn't want them to starve

So, what are your thoughts ?
Thanks for your input

[gregzz4]

In the meantime, I've decided to get 2 Astrea snails, one Red Scarlet hermit and a bag of shells
I only have 15lbs of LR so I think that's plenty for a start
I'm going to J&L this afternoon and really want to bring something live home :biggrin:

[gregzz4]

I shoulda mentioned ...
I'm starting to get some algae that looks like turf ?
And green whisker-like sprouts, some of which have white feather-duster-lookin' heads
I hope that will be some food for the new guys

[gregzz4]

This is the best I can do in a short time

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx136/Gregzz4/75%20Gallon%20Build/DSC01047.jpg

[gregzz4]

I'm not surprised with the lack of responses an this beautiful long weekend

[Flash]

you only have 15lbs of rock in a 75gl?

get at least 50 more lbs, let the tank cycle for two more weeks after that. then test your water. if everything is at 0 you can start a SMALL cuc... don't rush anything. no point in stressing out living things. add more rock and go from there. leave fish out of the picture until you all all the rock in the tank you'll be wanting.

[marie]

While your trying to make up your mind which way to go, this is a good article to read and who knows it may help you with your decision :mrgreen:

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic23945.aspx

[PurpleMonkey]

I'd think to grab some more rock...

I got my tank started with some cocktail shrimp. I did use MB7... Don't know if it made a huge difference but it was about 2 weeks.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

[subman]

I would't QT the first fish in IMO. I think QTing is great later when adding to an established tank but kinda pointless in a new one like yours. If it was me I'd get a fish.

[gregzz4]

you only have 15lbs of rock in a 75gl?

get at least 50 more lbs, let the tank cycle for two more weeks after that. then test your water. if everything is at 0 you can start a SMALL cuc... don't rush anything. no point in stressing out living things. add more rock and go from there. leave fish out of the picture until you all all the rock in the tank you'll be wanting.

I know, I know ...
I wish I could have found about 75lbs back in Jan/Feb
There wasn't any rock to be found when I was curing it
Now what I did find is cured and the tank is 'scaped

I have a small amount of space in the sump for maybe another 20-30lbs stuffed in but it won't stay clean with the arrangement. It will collect detritus, but I have already been thinking about it.
I don't want to re-scape just yet

Thanks for the input Flash

[gregzz4]

While your trying to make up your mind which way to go, this is a good article to read and who knows it may help you with your decision :mrgreen:

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic23945.aspx
Thanks Marie
I have been reading since last Oct. And I mean reading, and reading ....
I realize what I'm up against
I just can't make my mind up whether or not to go fish or coral first

[gregzz4]

I'd think to grab some more rock...

I got my tank started with some cocktail shrimp. I did use MB7... Don't know if it made a huge difference but it was about 2 weeks.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
I agree Harp that I need more LR
I added Stability for the first week and am going to add some more if need be
More LR in the sump .... more LR in the sump :mrgreen:

[gregzz4]

I would't QT the first fish in IMO. I think QTing is great later when adding to an established tank but kinda pointless in a new one like yours. If it was me I'd get a fish.
Thanks Sub
Finally some input with a decision as to what to add first

I realize my LR amount is very minimal - I really want to add some to the sump and will do so shortly, but it will have to cure first in a rubbermaid
I posted how much I have so others would get an idea what I'm up against

So, any other thoughts as to what to get first ?

Fish or easy corals ?????

[subman]

The small amount of LR doesn't really matter, as long as your livestock is still small. I'd treat it like a 20g tank for the amount of livestock for stocking.

I like adding fish first, I find them a better sign of tank health in the beginning. I like clowns as a first fish they are hardy, captive bred and are a staple in any marine tank. I wouldn't be afraid to add a mushroom or inexpensive poylp as well.

[Slick Fork]

If (when) I start another tank from scratch someday I think I would start by putting all my liverock in, seeding some more life into it with a nice big ball of chaeto and then letting it run for a while, adding coral and a smallish clean up crew. It's hard to resist adding fish, but I do think there's something to be said for letting all the micro-life get established in the tank before introducing fish that will act as predators to it.

[daplatapus]

I would't QT the first fish in IMO. I think QTing is great later when adding to an established tank but kinda pointless in a new one like yours. If it was me I'd get a fish.

Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. If you get a fish and put it into your tank, what if it has ich? The parasite will live it's life cycle, drop into the substrate be reborn 1000 fold and start again. Those young parasite will find the 1st fish, live their life cycle, drop off into the substrate and keep multiplying. If your fish is healthy and able to fight the invasion you may not even see it or know it's in your tank. Until, that is, you buy that really nice hippo tang or something, a couple fish get stressed and holy cow, how'd I get ich? I QT'd all my fish. No you didn't.

Your tank is the most pristine it's going to get. Don't be impatient and add a fish in there unless you are absolutely sure it is disease and parasite free. And the only way you are 100% sure is if you QT and/or treat. Some people prophylactically treat with copper, prazi, and/or a handful of others. What's worked for me so far is just the tank transfer method to deal with ich and close observation for anything else. Granted, I've only got 9 months under my belt, so it is only my experience and reading.

The only thing that sucks more than having a fish with ich is having a tank full of ichy fish. Then you will need to QT all of them and let your tank sit fallow for 8-10 weeks.
If it were me, I'd start ghost feeding the tank. A bit a day. If your NH3/NH4, NO3 and NO2 are remaining low after another week or so, I'd add a a couple hermit crabs if you personally have nothing against them (some don't like any). You've already got algae growing, add a couple snails then too. While this is going on, QT a couple nice hardy fish. Watch them every day, how they eat, how they react to you. When you finally get them into the tank you'll sort of know what's normal behaviour for them.

You are setting the stage for what should be a long and happy environment for your little fishies. Don't put anything in there you don't want in there for the long haul.

But, again, just my opinion....

[gregzz4]

I'd treat it like a 20g tank for the amount of liverock for stocking

I wouldn't be afraid to add a mushroom or inexpensive poylp as well.

I like clowns as a first fish they are hardy, captive bred and are a staple in any marine tank


These are my thoughts too

[gregzz4]

If (when) I start another tank from scratch someday I think I would start by putting all my liverock in, seeding some more life into it with a nice big ball of chaeto and then letting it run for a while, adding coral and a smallish clean up crew. It's hard to resist adding fish, but I do think there's something to be said for letting all the micro-life get established in the tank before introducing fish that will act as predators to it.
This is another line of thinking that has me wondering what to do

I have the chaeto in and just added 2 Astreas and 1 Scarlet hermit
After acclimating, the snails separated and started to move about
The hermit went right to it on the spot I placed it on and is still munching as we speak
... update ...
The snails are still in the same area but moving ...
The hermit has decided to take a break but I see ( let's call it a him ) his eyes and such still moving. He was eating for over a half hour

[gregzz4]

To condense daplatapus' generous input ( and thanks for it ) ....
I fully agree with the idea of QTing all fish
Even though some may be inclined to add their first fish right to the DT, I will not

I have just finished filling the QT with RO and am getting it ready for new fish, regardless if they will go into the tank before corals or after

With that said, we will probably buy one or 2 fishes tomorrow as I saw a couple today @ J&L that I'd like to have. They will go into the QT for weeks before going into the DT ( I think I've made that clear already :wink: )

So, do I start with corals, or do I start with fish ??????

[daplatapus]

I think a hardy fish is easier to care for. Feed 'em and give them fairly clean water and they're good to go. They also get you used to doing water changes and getting used to testing. Corals need good water quality, to some extent the right balance of elements like Mg, alk and Ca. Lighting is more crucial too. But that being said, there are some really easy, inexpensive corals that you could probably introduce at the same time. Why make yourself choose one over the other when you cann have both :)

[lockrookie]

you should wait be patient never rush i rushed my first tank and regretted it ore problems than enjoyment.. to be on the safe side... you could chance it and be ok but you have planned this long done all this work to what take a chance and add something. your rock is cured wait the full 4 weeks. or when you go to j&l purchase some prodibio start up add that to the tank let it run its course then add fish and coral.. but as i said you have put alot of thought into this. tank dontset yourself up to fail now

just my opinion

[gregzz4]

I see both your points, and both are still eating at me ...

Lock, what am I missing here ?
I cured the rock for 3 months. It's been in the tank for 11 days with no cycle and I used Seachem Stability for 7 days until Thursday

I see no issue with adding something now, yet you say to wait 4 weeks ... I'm puzzled

[lockrookie]

i cured my rock for my 50g and at week 3 i got an ammonia spike. most my rock was dry. but the tank itself needs to go through a cycle. no different than a fw tank needs to cycle. instead of using a fish(goldfish) like ppl do in fw. we use rock to cycle the tank. jump starting the system get the bacteria and nitrates and yada yada going. so that when you do add the fish and the coralsyou donthave this huge spike that wipes out the corals and fish you purchased. some ppl swear by prodibio startup.

and the way im going to jump start my 180 is by swapping spit with the old tank into the new tank since my water is already conitioned but my fish crap (literally) and micro oganismns it will belike i did a 50% water change on the 180. and even with that ill wait a week or 2 before i add everything just in case of a spike. your water is clean has no bacteriaother than that inyour rock it needs to build and as it builds it will add a spike once sike is gone then your good to go . but slowly .you add to much and it will spike again.

patience... diligence.. and due care.. you will have more success

[gregzz4]

OK, I get what you're pointing out, but you've still lost me ....

I've added rock that cured for 3 months
It has run for almost 2 weeks and there are;

0 ammonia
0 nitrites
0 nitrates

Plus, there's;
0 phosphates

I know it will cycle when I add something now, but, unless I'm missing something here, you are telling me that my fallow tank will still cycle on it's own ??????

It has not done so in 11 days

[gregzz4]

Of course I'm not gonna rush anything, but I'd like to get it started !!!! :razz:

[lockrookie]

it should onits own but you can jump start it by droping in a non live shrimp. you need to cycle your tank before fish its very hardon the fish and some will take it as cruel. this is why someppl buy damsels to start the cycleinhpes they die in the process cause they are evil fish. well so are my clowns but we wont go there. you have added criters. enjoy them for now throw in a raw shrimp it willjump start it and the rest of the rw shrimp cook on the bar-b and hurry up and wait. you will be better off

[lockrookie]

as i say you have added a few snails and crabs wait a week test for ammonia and nitrates if all is good add a fish .. do all this in baby steps your rock itself has been cured but if you add too much to fast you will get a spike you could lose something.

[gregzz4]

Thanks
I'm sure I follow ... we are just talking time lines ....
I will not rush anything
I just wanted to know what some would suggest for my first critters

So ... you think fish over corals first ?

[lockrookie]

corals dont really crapin your tank to add alot of bioload unlessits lps and nems. alot of corals are filter feeders and will help withthe whole thing.. so when yu get to the point of adding saveyour self the decition.. buy a fish and a coral that filter feeds and problem solved. fish polutes coral eats win win lol

[PurpleMonkey]

If I had to choose between fish and coral first. I say fish.

Go with something non territorial or not as aggressive. I started with some green chromosome and a bicolour blenny. The bicolour is one of my favorites.

[gregzz4]

Ya, it would be LPS. Something that poops :lol:
Something like a frogspawn would be nice
I'd also like some rics later
And a nice clown. I'm not going to start with a picasso :surprise: but I saw some nice blacks Saturday

So, tomorrow, we'll see what the store has

I don't think I'm ready for a blenny yet Harp :wink:

[jorjef]

Holy Moly, go buy a couple Chromis before you go nuts, just don't over feed them. Don't add corals until later and don't waste your money on a CUC unless you need one, then only buy what you need not three of everything. :biggrin:

[Reef Pilot]

You have put a lot of thought, effort, time and money into your new tank. Why risk it all by not having an ongoing functioning QT, and guaranteed healthy fish and corals? And not to mention killing otherwise healthy fish down the road because you didn't do this. I personally think that is a totally irresponsible choice to make given how simple it is to set up and keep a QT. It is just as important to start with your first fish, as it will be once your display tank is fully established.

My QT is very simple. I use a canister filter which means it is always cycled and ready to go, so you don't have to battle ammonia with a hastily set up QT. The water (and salt) is free, as I use recycled water from my display tank water changes. And that display tank water will also help acclimatize your new fish before moving them to the display tank.

Mark my words. If you choose not to QT, you will be very sorry, and upset within a year or so in the future, when you helplessly watch your prized fish suffer and die. And you tear apart your beautiful rock and corals trying to catch your sick fish to move them to your new hastily set up QT, where most of them will die anyway, because of ammonia poisoning. Do you really want this scenario? I have seen this party way too many times here on Canreef in the last couple years.

I know you said you are QTing everything, but you also seemed to be waffling with your response to Subman, so pardon my tough love post here. This topic is just too important to sit on the fence.

[fishytime]

QTs are great and they do work, but unless you plan on QTing EVERYTHING(fish and coral), I think your still rolling the dice.....quarantining fish will eliminate the chance of introducing a disease, but unless you quarantine your corals too you still run the risk of introducing parasites....

with the amount of dead rock you have started with patience is going to be key......you may be able to help things along with a bottled product but Ive never had any experience doing this......

[tang daddy]

I would personally add corals first to a cycled tank over fish, some corals can take more abuse than fish.

When I say start with corals I am meaning zoas and mushrooms, these corals can withstand quite alot of torture.....

I would wait abit on lps, start with softies, then lps and finally sps if you even plan on getting any.

When I usually start off my tank, I always add cheaper soft corals as a tester, if you kill zoas and mushrooms then your tank definately has a problem.

Dont use damsels to cycle, you will have a hard time catching them out. As much as I hate damsels I would not use them for food or cycling. The cocktail shrimp is the best method for cycling to start the amonia cycle.

Inverts should never go in a tank first aswell, they are sensitive so if there is a cycle they may not do well, again just my thoughts.....

Here is they way I see it, you cured your rock and so this doesnt help you much with a cycle because most of your cured rock doesnt have tons of algae, sponges etc. If there is no algae then the animals feeding on the algae perish, there may be slight amounts of bacteria still lingering on the rock but with no waste its hard for them to colonize.....

I still stick with my original statement, which is add some cheaper softies to your tank, add some Lr rubble or a few more pieces of liverock to your sump. Wait for the diatoms which is usually the first sign of a cycle, then the hair algae stage and maybe a cyano stage then after this is all over your tank is cycled.

I speak from experience, all my tanks I have started go through these stages, Threads on reef central seem to go through the same situation. With soft corals they can handle the nitrate/nitrite spikes, and the pods will thrive on the algae outbreak in your tank whilst cycling.

Hope my input will help with your decision, at the algae stage the fish should be good to add, because the algae will use up most of the nitrates from the tank.

[daplatapus]

OK, I get what you're pointing out, but you've still lost me ....

I've added rock that cured for 3 months
It has run for almost 2 weeks and there are;

0 ammonia
0 nitrites
0 nitrates

Plus, there's;
0 phosphates

I know it will cycle when I add something now, but, unless I'm missing something here, you are telling me that my fallow tank will still cycle on it's own ??????

It has not done so in 11 days

I think I now understand part of your question. I've never tried cycling with any product in a bottle. So my following remarks may not even apply to your situation, and if so sorry for wasting everyone's time if they read this :)
Understanding the cycling process is key to knowing what's going on and any future spikes you're going to see. Ammonia is the first stage of your cycle. Without it your tank will sit there and evaporate water and that's it. So unless whatever is in the bottle has a decent about of ammonia your cycle can't progress. Ammonia can come from several sources. Dead and decaying matter or pure ammonia poured in. If you have cured live rock, everything on it is very much alive and thus no ammonia. But it still needs to eat so if not fed will die rot and produce ammonia. So what sometimes happens is if the tank isn't fed, either by ghost feeding, adding a non-living shrimp, etc, you cycle stalls out before it even starts. The organisms must be fed to keep alive and for the cycle to continue to it's next stage. Once the 2 main bacteria have developed in your tank your cycle is complete. If you have a DSB there are 3 bacteria. But the 2 bacteria that feed on ammonia and nitrite must be cultured and their growth promoted in your tank for that cycle to complete. W/C's and or a DSB will remove your nitrate's.

It seems to me your tank either hasn't cycled yet or if it did, you blinked and missed it :) Which is possible. I put in 120 lbs of pure Tonga live rock in mine then over 3 weeks threw in 2 cocktail shrimp which completely liquified and disintegrated in my tank. I never once saw any ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. Puzzled the hell out of me until someone pointed out the step by step process of cycling. If the bacteria is there in sufficient quantities, you'll never see a cycle.
But IMO, (I don't remember exactly what you put in there for LR and dead rock) I doubt you have enough LR in there to have accomplished that. Start dropping fish food or a cocktail shrimp in your tank for a week or so and see if there's any spike. If not, you may have cycled already.

Fish poop will also feed the bacteria chain. Corals eats fish poop so the more I think about it, they may actually hinder the bacteria building process by eating that food source. I know there are certain challenges with coral only tanks so starting with fish seems to be the wisest choice.

Hope that helps.

[gregzz4]

Thanks everyone for the great input
Just to clarify - although I'm new to SW, I have decades of FW knowledge and have been voraciously reading about SW since last fall.
I do understand the chemistry and bacterial functions. I've posted this as I know I need to grow my bacterial colonies and want something to feed

I do have my QT running and I've already stated I will definately use it

I see the point of not trying lps yet and will look at maybe some 'shrooms, but I'm not going after any zoas right now as I'm not sure I want any

We haven't made it to the LFS yet but if we grab any fish it will only be 1 ( or 2 at most )

All that's growing right now is turf and HA, so it looks like the cycle is further along and I guarantee you it's stalled. This is why I want to get something to feed into it. I'll ponder ghost feeding while the new purchases are in QT, and will be hooking up the GFO reactor today to see how the algae reacts

There are some feather dusters and sponge that made it through cooking so I didn't kill everything :wink:

As for what I've already done;
I have 2 Astreas and 1 Red Scalet Hermit
All are milling about on the largest pile of LR. I guess they'll be my canary for now

And don't worry, I am taking this slow, but I have to add something after a QT, right ? :lol:

[gregzz4]

Also, I'll get some more LR for the sump but I'll cure it for at least up to a week to see what kind of shape it's in and what's hiding in it :smile:

[gregzz4]

For those not following my build thread ...
I bought another 57lbs of LR yesterday from TaioneReefer. It appears to be cured. I'll watch it this week to see where the NO3 and PO4 are at
The plan is to stuff as much of it into the sump as possible and maybe put a couple in the DT

Finally getting some diatoms now so looks like the cycle hasn't stalled after all. Don't know if adding the astreas kick started it, but they sure have pooped a lot already. Time to crank up the vortechs a bit