Cannot get rid of cyano!

[MarkoD]

Showed up about a month and half ago.

I have:

Physically removed it by blowing it off the rocks and vacuuming it off the sand. comes back within 3 days to cover everything again.

Been running GFO inside of a reactor

Ive got through 2 large bottles of fozdown

Did a water change.

removed the sump and fuge and completely cleaned them and reinstalled them.

i dont know what else to do, i dont think going lights out for a few days is an option.

anyone have any suggestions

[MarkoD]

i also made sure there isnt any phosphates in my RO water.

[reefgirl189]

I don't have any suggestions but I'm dealing with it too. I had never had it before and one day it shows up out of nowhere and it's been a thorn in my side ever since.

I've added a more extensive CUC, including sand sifting starfish, to help with the problem but I haven't noticed any help.

After a few weeks mine *seems* to be dying down now. All I did was lower the intensity of the LEDs by a bit and started feeding a less.

Tagging along because I wouldn't mind a few new tricks myself.

[jtbadco]

Not sure what you guys are running for lights but I had a huge cyano outbreak when my T5 bulbs got old. I ran them for about 9 months with no problems, then the cyano started with a little here and there, which got worse, and worse. I changed out my bulbs and the problem went away.

[Coralgurl]

I had the same problem in my tank. Was blowing it off the rocks, sucking up what I could off the sand, cleaned out the sump, didn't make a difference. I have since added a dual reactor running carbon and gfo, added a sand sifting star (he would avoid the cyano and go around it, wouldn't move on top of it). I did adjust the location of my powerheads slightly and lowered the light intensity as well. I've added a make shift refugium with cheato and another macro algae and added a orange diamond goby. I think the goby has made a world of difference. I need to move a couple of corals as his nightly burrying under a rock has pushed sand up against a couple lps, but otherwise, my sand is spotless and he doesn't spit sand everywhere, just basically gulps it and sifts it out wherever he is. Rest of the CUC is able to keep up with the rocks. Its been 3 weeks and no return of the cyano.

[marie]

for some reason I get cyano from Jan to April every year and then it goes away.... whether I attempt to do anything about it or not

[NU-2reef]

Did anyone try to increase flow to the areas where cyano is present? I know it's pretty basic but I don't recall anyone talking about flow. Some chemicals have also helped me but I recommend some caution if going that route.

[doch]

Chemi clean. I fought it for a long time... didn't want to use it... gave3 up, tried it and it was cleared up in 3 days. Never came back. Also, no adverse effects.

[MarkoD]

i have recently added another MP40 and an MP10. cyano seems to be the worse(thick and sticky) in high flow areas

[Cal_stir]

+1 on the chemiclean, had battled for @ 3 months, followed instructions, no adverse effects, took @ 4 20% WC to get my skimmer to settle down,
ran 2 air pumps til then, glad I did it.

[Cal_stir]

i have recently added another MP40 and an MP10. cyano seems to be the worse(thick and sticky) in high flow areas

It seems that high flow prevents it, but once you got it, it feeds it.

[FitoPharmer]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2095174&highlight=how+to+get+rid+of+it (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2095174)

I found this thread to be helpful with combating it. The dark period really helps kill it. I did not even skim, just did a 20% W/C instead of 10%.

[FitoPharmer]

I have also used boyd chemi clean. It worked with no ill effects, clams and all. It was very quick too.

[Cal_stir]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2095174&highlight=how+to+get+rid+of+it (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2095174)

I found this thread to be helpful with combating it. The dark period really helps kill it. I did not even skim, just did a 20% W/C instead of 10%.

I tried that too, did 4 days of dark, seemed to work but was short lived.
My cyano started after a few acans died from some kind of disease, a couple of them I could not remove from the tank, cyano kept returning on their skeletons, and spreading, chemiclean stopped it.

[monocus]

i started getting it when i started using h2ocean-switched salts,a few waterchanges and chemicals-no cyano

[fishytime]

did you use any Marko rock, Marko?(or dead/dry).....whats your feeding regiment like?.....do you rinse/strain your frozen foods (if you feed them)?

[MarkoD]

Yeah I have Marco rock that's been in there for a while, got it dry from red coral.

I feed nls daily and frozen every couple days. I've never seen any left over food

[Zarstar]

Stop feeding your tank. its worked every time anyone asked me... and regular water changes

[MarkoD]

Stop feeding your tank. its worked every time anyone asked me... and regular water changes

lol and that wont cause more problems?

[Zarstar]

lol and that wont cause more problems?

Ok ok that was dramatic, feed the tank much less food, dosing, and maintain parameters. its just the best advice I can give and it works :razz:

[reefgirl189]

Not to steal your thread Marko but I just realized that my outbreak happened after I added the two tunze powerheads. I doubled, perhaps tripled, my flow in my tank at that time. I thought more flow was better for cyano?

[fishytime]

Im gonna start sounding like a broken record here, but......now that Im not officially on the payroll of any LFS, Im gonna take my shot......I think Marko rock is crap.....you might as well fill your tank with field stones......the stuff is nothing more that petrified LR and should be treated as such......there is no way something so solid should ever be considered "live" again.....I wish that LFSs would stop pushing it so hard, or at least sell it for what it is, cheap BASE rock, not the be all end all, perfect, pest free, will be as good as REAL live rock, that they bill it as.....

My advice would be.....take your actual, REAL live rock poundage and stock your tank based on that....

[MarkoD]

Im gonna start sounding like a broken record here, but......now that Im not officially on the payroll of any LFS, Im gonna take my shot......I think Marko rock is crap.....you might as well fill your tank with field stones......the stuff is nothing more that petrified LR and should be treated as such......there is no way something so solid should ever be considered "live" again.....I wish that LFSs would stop pushing it so hard, or at least sell it for what it is, cheap BASE rock, not the be all end all, perfect, pest free, will be as good as REAL live rock, that they bill it as.....

My advice would be.....take your actual, REAL live rock poundage and stock your tank based on that....

i only have about 15 pounds of that marko rock.... the only reason i bought it, is because of the interesting shape.

i have over 200 pounds of actual live rock

[The Grizz]

I was fighting cyano myself for some time until I started running pellets. My tank tells me when it's time to add more as the cyano shows up in spots, once I top off my pellets it's gone in a matter of a week.

Just my experience.

[fishytime]

ok so the dead rock shouldnt be a contributing factor....perhaps Im a little "Marko rock shy".....Ive just been trouble shooting problems for two years with customers who's only common factor seemed to be the use of a large percentage of dead rock.....


unfortunately then the problem lies elsewhere...... there are a number of contributing factors that cause cyano bacteria (not an algae, so GFO or phosphate reducing products wont help).......cyano is a product of excess nutrients plain and simple (sometimes fueled by lighting).......here's a punch list of things you can try....

increase flow to keep the nutrients suspended so they get skimmed out
reduce feeding (frequency and an amount)
reduce photo period
Turkey baste off your your rocks frequently
siphon crap out of your display
strain all frozen foods
change your bulbs if they are old (I know this doesnt apply to the OP)
increase your w/c regiment perhaps both frequency and and volume
think about your bio-load



these small changes can add up to a big difference......use a chemical as a last resort....I think chemicals are a band-aid solution to an underlying issue

[waynemah]

I've been battling a little of it myself. 10% weekly water changes and have a slightly better regulation on food. Pellets in the morning (lasts about 20 seconds) and a cube of mysis and bloodworms in the evening. This is for a well stocked tank. The Cyano has diminished to almost nothing over a period of a month or so. Fish are seemingly healthy and plump.

Another method is to perform regular water changes for a while to reduce nutrients, then hit the tank with chemiclean... If it comes back there is some sort of food source, if your lucky it won't.

[RedCoralEdmonton]

While I agree with Doug, to a point, its not the Marco rocks fault that people have problems with it. The problem lies with people thinking they can fill their tank 90% with Marco rock and put fish in 3 months later.... I tell everyone that while Marco rock is cheaper, you seriously cant fill your tank with fish for close to a year with large percentages. But this also has a double edge as Ive seen people put 75% marco/ 25% live and leave the tank empty for 6 months, which doesnt work either because you need the cycle to be created.... and after 6 months thinking it shoudl be populated and ready they have algae problems.....

So final note being, in my opinion, Marco rock is fine to save money, but you need to realise you will need to figure out that happy medium to create your cultures, without going over board and getting a bloom..... not for the inexperienced, or trigger happy consumer....

Steve

[waynemah]

I'm running about 90% Marco rock... The rock was full of life and coraline after the 4 month mark. I had a Cyano problem after adding a couple MP40's and a chunk of live rock :mrgreen:

[RedCoralEdmonton]

Sorry Wayne, but full of life and bacteria cultures are not related at all. The bacteria that are beneficial to your tank are microscopic and you cannot see them with the naked eye.....

Steve

[waynemah]

Sorry Wayne, but full of life and bacteria cultures are not related at all. The bacteria that are beneficial to your tank are microscopic and you cannot see them with the naked eye.....

Steve

I agree 100%, I can't see microscopic bacterial cultures with my naked eye... :razz:... But the corals and fish I purchased from your store are still alive and thriving, that must count for something.

[RedCoralEdmonton]

Im not saying that your tank isnt healthy, only if you are having issues with cyano or any other nuissance algae, that the reason could be the way you culture bacteria to dry rock.....

Steve

[MarkoD]

Thanks for the advice guys. But wouldn't physically removing the cyano, remove the phosphates or neutriants causing it?

I've removed it like 5 times now and it always comes back 2-3 days later

[doch]

Chemi clean!! Oh wait... I already said that.

[MarkoD]

Chemi clean!! Oh wait... I already said that.

Lol thanks. But I'm kind of keeping that as a last resort.

Cuz if I use a chemical to kill the cyano, wont it just release everything it's absorbed back into the water?

[fishoholic]

While I agree with Doug, to a point, its not the Marco rocks fault that people have problems with it. The problem lies with people thinking they can fill their tank 90% with Marco rock and put fish in 3 months later.... I tell everyone that while Marco rock is cheaper, you seriously cant fill your tank with fish for close to a year with large percentages. But this also has a double edge as Ive seen people put 75% marco/ 25% live and leave the tank empty for 6 months, which doesnt work either because you need the cycle to be created.... and after 6 months thinking it shoudl be populated and ready they have algae problems.....

So final note being, in my opinion, Marco rock is fine to save money, but you need to realise you will need to figure out that happy medium to create your cultures, without going over board and getting a bloom..... not for the inexperienced, or trigger happy consumer....

Steve

+1

Chemi clean!! Oh wait... I already said that.

Lol thanks. But I'm kind of keeping that as a last resort.

Cuz if I use a chemical to kill the cyano, wont it just release everything it's absorbed back into the water?

I over feed my tank and my phosphates are high because of it, which causes cyano outbreaks. So far in the past the thing that worked 100% for me to get rid of it is chemi clean. No ill effects from using it either.

[Reef Pilot]

I used to have very high nitrates and phosphates, and had cyano, hair algae, you name it.... That was over a year ago. But since using bio pellets along with MB7, have never had another cyano problem. And I added Marco rocks to my tank since then as well. From what I understand, MB7 adds beneficial bacteria to your tank which out competes the cyano.

[NU-2reef]

Chemi clean is an antibacterial and will kill Cyanobacteria but will also kill good beneficial bacteria. Which can cause an imbalance in the tanks biofiltration and in severe cases cause tanks to crash. I like many others have had success using it and I would recommend this as a last resort. (just before you feel like pulling your hair out).

It will not release the nutrients back into your system it just breaks it down so it can be pulled by the skimmer as dead waste.

[pinkreef]

i havent read through all of this thread but i read that ro water still contains silicates
which are needed by the cyano to grow. id google what to do to remove silicates from your ro water. the product chemiclean mentioned above i have used and it is a great product removing the cyano and the grunge from glass and equipment also but you have to be prepared to do a large water change after. the skimmer will run way too wet (virtually unuseable) until you to the water change so and bubbler will be needed. just my 2 cents worth

[Proteus]

I was sceptical using chemi clean. But after a loosing battle I took that route. Worked great. And has not been back.
Just be prepared for some water changes after. It took three wc before my skimmer was back to normal

Btw. Rowaphos removes silicates

[ElGuappo]

+1 on the chemiclean

Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk 2

[Nate]

Arent you the guy that is against water changes?

If so, physically remove with a syphon, clean your top layer of gravel, every day for 3 days, and I bet that will fix your problem.

Start changing your water more often if youre not. I believe, if this is the same person, this is the second time you have had issues that may be solved by water changes.

Nate

[MarkoD]

Arent you the guy that is against water changes?

If so, physically remove with a syphon, clean your top layer of gravel, every day for 3 days, and I bet that will fix your problem.

Start changing your water more often if youre not. I believe, if this is the same person, this is the second time you have had issues that may be solved by water changes.

Nate

Read the entire thread

[Cal_stir]

Chemi clean is an antibacterial and will kill Cyanobacteria but will also kill good beneficial bacteria. Which can cause an imbalance in the tanks biofiltration and in severe cases cause tanks to crash. I like many others have had success using it and I would recommend this as a last resort. (just before you feel like pulling your hair out).

It will not release the nutrients back into your system it just breaks it down so it can be pulled by the skimmer as dead waste.

I run a sulphur denitrator that is controlled with an ORP controller and had it running while I dosed chemiclean, the denitrator functioned properly the whole time, therefore, the chemiclean did not kill the good bacteria in the reactor so I dought it killed the good bacteria in my tank.
The package says it is safe and after using it I have to agree, I so absolutely no ill effects other than a whacked out skimmer.

[Cal_stir]

Read the entire thread

I believe that I am a water change nut, I did daily 10% water changes for a month while battling the cyano, I've gone thru 4 200 gal boxes of reefcrystals since new years in a 90 gal tank, my tank is cyano free thanks to chemiclean.
Just do it, you won't regret it.

Cal

[Doug]

25yrs. reefing......dozens of tanks both with and without sand. My experience, ONLY, if I had sandbed I had cyno....if I run bare or starboard, no cyno. Period. Nothing in between.
and yes I know lots have sand and no cyno but thats it in a nutshell for me.

:D

[MarkoD]

25yrs. reefing......dozens of tanks both with and without sand. My experience, ONLY, if I had sandbed I had cyno....if I run bare or starboard, no cyno. Period. Nothing in between.
and yes I know lots have sand and no cyno but thats it in a nutshell for me.

:D

yeah sand is most likely the cause of many problems. but i just dont like the look of bare bottom. so i went with about an inch of sand.

i think the risk of sand is worth it

[Cal_stir]

yeah sand is most likely the cause of many problems. but i just dont like the look of bare bottom. so i went with about an inch of sand.

i think the risk of sand is worth it

+1 on the sand, I just can't bare the site of a tank without it.

[MarkoD]

i just dosed 20 scoops of chemiclean. how long does it take to get rid of the cyano, its starting to kill my corals.

can i still run a skimmer fully open?

[Cal_stir]

follow the instructions

no skimmer, UV, ozone, chemipure or carbon for 24 hours

multiple air stones is good.

it takes 24 to 48 hours

[Cal_stir]

Turn your filtration back on after 24 hrs(except skimmer), keep the air stones running.

Be ready to start daily 20% WC after 48 hours, run fresh carbon, it will take 2 or 3 days before you can run your skimmer.

[MarkoD]

i find it very strange that some of my corals are dying through all this and some seem to be thriving

[RedCoralEdmonton]

With everything I have heard, and by all means this is just speculation, but is it possible that with your new flow, that there isn't a proper exchange of water from the bottom of the tank to the sump? I know you have MP40s now, and they are great but you still need some movement up and down, I do this by directing the returns downward... food for thought.... couldn be why some corals are reacting harshly because they arent getting the oxygen provided by the sump? Feel free to give me a call Marko if you run into more issues....

Steve

[MarkoD]

With everything I have heard, and by all means this is just speculation, but is it possible that with your new flow, that there isn't a proper exchange of water from the bottom of the tank to the sump? I know you have MP40s now, and they are great but you still need some movement up and down, I do this by directing the returns downward... food for thought.... couldn be why some corals are reacting harshly because they arent getting the oxygen provided by the sump? Feel free to give me a call Marko if you run into more issues....

Steve

i have no idea. i just cant see there being issues with flow. i get mini sand tornados rising from the sand when the powerheads speed up.

also one of the corals that i pulled out that was dead was an sps that was 6 inches from the top of the tank :( it was good this morning and now all white

[MarkoD]

heres a video showing how much flow i have on the sand bed.

and notice the patch of cyano right infront of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-bjM5uN_eo

[RedCoralEdmonton]

did you dilute the chemiclean before you put it in the tank? possible that some touched that coral?

Steve

[MarkoD]

did you dilute the chemiclean before you put it in the tank? possible that some touched that coral?

Steve

I diluted it and poured it into the sump.

[RedCoralEdmonton]

Im out of options here.... just trying to figure out why things that work for everyone else never seem to work for you.... mutant tank? haha

Steve

[Nate]

Read the entire thread

You're obnoxious... Good luck with your problem. I was more so inquiring if you did regular water changes or just did a little one for the first time in a couple years due to the cyano.

Read my entire post

[waynemah]

Do you have your skimmer running with the cup off? I've heard of many people doing this while running chemiclean. Either that or some form of air stone.

When I used the chemiclean in my tank, it took a day or two.

[MarkoD]

You're obnoxious... Good luck with your problem. I was more so inquiring if you did regular water changes or just did a little one for the first time in a couple years due to the cyano.

Read my entire post

if you read the thread you'd see i did everything you suggested

[MarkoD]

Im out of options here.... just trying to figure out why things that work for everyone else never seem to work for you.... mutant tank? haha

Steve

its defiantly messed up.

[Nate]

Do you do regular water changes?

[Dr_Hicks]

Chemi clean is an antibacterial and will kill Cyanobacteria but will also kill good beneficial bacteria. Which can cause an imbalance in the tanks biofiltration and in severe cases cause tanks to crash. I like many others have had success using it and I would recommend this as a last resort. (just before you feel like pulling your hair out).

It will not release the nutrients back into your system it just breaks it down so it can be pulled by the skimmer as dead waste.

I've used chemi-clean in tanks up to 2500 gallons multiple times, and never once has a tank crashed......

No screwing around, 100% recommend chemi-clean; all of the site sponsors carry it, do yourself a favour ( OP ) and save yourself the time; try it out.

[MarkoD]

Do you do regular water changes?

no because there is no need to do water changes if a person has other methods of nutrient export.

i dont have a single patch of hair algae or any other kind of algae in my tank

[fishytime]

no because there is no need to do water changes if a person has other methods of nutrient export.

i dont have a single patch of hair algae or any other kind of algae in my tank

perhaps you have no algae because the cyano from hell is consuming all the nutrients that arent being exported:wink:......the solution to pollution is dilution and no W/Cs = no dilution.....

[MarkoD]

perhaps you have no algae because the cyano from hell is consuming all the nutrients that arent being exported:wink:......the solution to pollution is dilution and no W/Cs = no dilution.....

ok but i've had cyano for a month...... not for the last 14 months i've had my tank setup:lol:

[MarkoD]

If orp drops below 350 I'm turning the skimmer back on.

It's at 391 now. Usually hangs around 400-420

[canadianbudz604]

My tank is 4 months old, had no other algae problems except had a bad case of cyano. Its a 10g nano and cyano was covering everything. Here's how I got rid of it; weekly 2.5g water changes and sucked up as much of it as I could. The water changes worked and its all gone.

[Nate]

no because there is no need to do water changes if a person has other methods of nutrient export.

i dont have a single patch of hair algae or any other kind of algae in my tank

You ask for advice as long as its what you want to hear. Do some water changes I bet your cyano goes away.

I maintain about 50 tanks in Calgary and tend to only get cyano in tanks with too low flow, tanks that have had persistent low kh, and tanks that dont get enough water changes. Water changes and increased flow have solved the problem Every time. And yes, it's at about the 8-14 month mark when you tend to see this problem
Build up.

Do you clean your gravel?

[MarkoD]

You ask for advice as long as its what you want to hear. Do some water changes I bet your cyano goes away.

I maintain about 50 tanks in Calgary and tend to only get cyano in tanks with too low flow, tanks that have had persistent low kh, and tanks that dont get enough water changes. Water changes and increased flow have solved the problem Every time. And yes, it's at about the 8-14 month mark when you tend to see this problem
Build up.

Do you clean your gravel?

No I ask for advice and you suggested things I had already done. I vacuumed the gravel 5 times now and it always comes back 2-3 days later.

I only have 1-1.5 inches of sand anyway.

Since the cyano started I have done water changes with no improvement.

I've got alternate methods of nutrient reduction, which is why I don't do frequent water changes. I dose alk, calc, mag, strontium and iodine.

[Coralgurl]

I maintain about 50 tanks in Calgary and tend to only get cyano in tanks with too low flow, tanks that have had persistent low kh, and tanks that dont get enough water changes.

That's interesting on the low kh, mine is low in both my tanks and I have to dose, it sits around 6. I see issues with corals as a result, but was not aware it contributed to cyano. My small tank hasn't had any issues since the initial setup and its now 13 months old...that said, theres only 1 eel, cuc and some soft corals. I did get rid of the cyano before I started dosing in the larger tank. Are you saying its a combination of the above?

[Cal_stir]

Do you do regular water changes?

I do regular weekly 10% water changes, and vacuum the substrate every 2 weeks, run HC GFO, carbon, and maintain balanced ca and alk and mag, change filter socks every 2 days, skim wet, run a sulphur denitrator, but once cyano rears its ugly head your pretty much screwed, you can do water changes til the cows jump over the moon but it just won't work, I'm thankful for chemiclean.

[Cal_stir]

its defiantly messed up.

Sounds like you did it right, not sure how it could have messed you up, run lots of air to keep oxygen up, chemiclean is an oxidizer so maybe there was an underlying issue with some corals that caused them to die, they may have died in time anyway. See it through, get rid of the cyano and regroup.

Good luck!

[Dr_Hicks]

You ask for advice as long as its what you want to hear.


Hit the nail on the head......

Yahtzee.....

[MarkoD]

Hit the nail on the head......

Yahtzee.....

And what is it that I wanna hear?

I'm looking for answers that might actually help. Not generic responses that I can find with a quick google search

[Cal_stir]

And what is it that I wanna hear?

I'm looking for answers that might actually help. Not generic responses that I can find with a quick google search

Some of us are trying to give you sound advise and share our real world experiences to help you make informed decisions, a lot of people have used chemiclean successfully with no ill effects in all types of reef tanks, I researched it like crazy before I did it and have no regrets, I think you must have some unseen issue with your tank, which could be responsible for the cyano in the first place (I had some acans die that caused mine).

I wanna hear that you are making progress, are you?

[MarkoD]

Some of us are trying to give you sound advise and share our real world experiences to help you make informed decisions, a lot of people have used chemiclean successfully with no ill effects in all types of reef tanks, I researched it like crazy before I did it and have no regrets, I think you must have some unseen issue with your tank, which could be responsible for the cyano in the first place (I had some acans die that caused mine).

I wanna hear that you are making progress, are you?

And I took your advice and dosed chemiclean yesterday. Waiting to see results

[Cal_stir]

OK, you should be seeing results by now, tomorrow the cyano will be gone.

[Nate]

Well I really hope your cyano clears up.

I too have used chemi-clean... In fact it's in my glovebox. When cyano happens to one of my customers tanks, they want it gone now. Instead of saying itll be gone in 3-4 weeks with me doing some dedicated water changes and adjusting chemistry, perhaps adding a power head. I will sometimes just add chemi clean to get rid of it, all the while knowing the I will have to adjust the problem that was causing it in the first place in the future. However the customer is happy for the meantime and I can fix the issue after.

Marlo, please keep up with the water changes. It will help in the long run.

Chemi clean can sometimes be like a bandaid fix. Not really fixing the problem causing it.

The only other thing that I can think of that could make a difference is that I have changed everyone of my 50 tanks off of nls foods as I find them to be really dirty. I am now feeding 95% hikari both frozen and pellets (marine a, marine s, as seaweed extreme) and have had significantly less brown algae on the glass, and less outbreaks of cyano.

Water changes are your friend.

[Nate]

That's interesting on the low kh, mine is low in both my tanks and I have to dose, it sits around 6. I see issues with corals as a result, but was not aware it contributed to cyano. My small tank hasn't had any issues since the initial setup and its now 13 months old...that said, theres only 1 eel, cuc and some soft corals. I did get rid of the cyano before I started dosing in the larger tank. Are you saying its a combination of the above?

A combo or even just one of the factors

[MarkoD]

Well I really hope your cyano clears up.

I too have used chemi-clean... In fact it's in my glovebox. When cyano happens to one of my customers tanks, they want it gone now. Instead of saying itll be gone in 3-4 weeks with me doing some dedicated water changes and adjusting chemistry, perhaps adding a power head. I will sometimes just add chemi clean to get rid of it, all the while knowing the I will have to adjust the problem that was causing it in the first place in the future. However the customer is happy for the meantime and I can fix the issue after.

Marlo, please keep up with the water changes. It will help in the long run.

Chemi clean can sometimes be like a bandaid fix. Not really fixing the problem causing it.

The only other thing that I can think of that could make a difference is that I have changed everyone of my 50 tanks off of nls foods as I find them to be really dirty. I am now feeding 95% hikari both frozen and pellets (marine a, marine s, as seaweed extreme) and have had significantly less brown algae on the glass, and less outbreaks of cyano.

Water changes are your friend.

If I had the time or facility to do weekly or biweekly water changes, I would. But that's just not realistic for me

[Nate]

If I had the time or facility to do weekly or biweekly water changes, I would. But that's just not realistic for me

You win.... Good luck with your cyano ... I know a couple Maint guys in edm if interested.

[MarkoD]

No need to have a fit just cuz I won't agree with you

[MarkoD]

Can you please explain: if cyano is feeding on neutrients and absorbing them. How is a water change going to help if none of those neutrients are in the water column

[MarkoD]

chemiclean. worked. cyano almost gone

[Nate]

No need to have a fit just cuz I won't agree with you

Definitely not having a fit my friend... Just trying to help you out as you had asked a question on a public forum because you didn't know the solution to your problem... I gave you a suggestion, you didn't like it, and maybe I hit a nerve as you're super defensive on the topic of water changes. It's happened in threads prior to this one... It'll happen in threads after this one when you run into your next problem that maybe could be solved by some good old fashioned water changes...

Vast majority out there does water changes on their tank. I'm
Just saying.

Glad your cyano is gone... Drop me a line if you want some advice on how to fix it when you open your mind a little...

[fishytime]

You win.... Good luck with your cyano ....

+1...... Obviously Marko knows something that 99% of everyone else in the hobby doesn't

[beefORchicken]

cyano uses nitrogen fixation ->grows without nitrates and uses nitrogen gas in the air, but it still needs a source of phosphate.
large W/Cs did nothing to cyano for me
extra GFO worked, but it took a long time and was a gradual change with less growing back each time it was removed
(GFO also removes silicates which can contribute to cyano)

[MarkoD]

+1...... Obviously Marko knows something that 99% of everyone else in the hobby doesn't

no its that i tried all the obvious things and was looking for the one person that knows something that 99% of us dont know

and last time i had a problem with my clams being closed up, how was a water change suppose to help me resolve the problem of my cleaner wrasse nipping on the clams?

[Nate]

no its that i tried all the obvious things and was looking for the one person that knows something that 99% of us dont know

you didn't try ROUTINE water changes... Tried a couple for the first time in 14 months...

[Cal_stir]

you didn't try ROUTINE water changes... Tried a couple for the first time in 14 months...

I do ROUTINE water changes, so why didn't it fix my cyano problem?

[Proteus]

Routine water changes never fixed mine but it did import better quality water while I fixed the problems

[Cal_stir]

Exactly, I'm just trying to make a point, I do routine WC, vacuum, socks, maint, don't overfeed, maintain good water params, but sometimes when cyano gets the chance to rear its ugly head, the best maintenance in the world can't correct it.
I battled it for over a month, then I chemicleaned it and now it's gone, I'm back to my regular routine(that worked for years) and no sign of cyano, tank is happy and I'm happy.
So to say that Marcos problem is because he doesn't do routine water changes is a farce, and to say that doing routine wc will clear it up in a few weeks is a greater farce.

[Nate]

I do ROUTINE water changes, so why didn't it fix my cyano problem?

I dont know much about your system... Wish I could help you. You said it happened after "acans dies from a disease?" I am glad you keep to regular water changes, and wish I could help you further. but with so little information, you are asking a question that I could not possibly give you an answer to. You have set me up to fail with this question. Its like me asking you why is my Duck Toller barking right now. Could be a bird, could be the cat, could be that I'm paying attention to a thread that I've wasted too much time on today...

Furthermore, I believe you are not even currently battling cyano?

Again, I would like to go on record as not being against the chemiclean. I have used it as well. In fact I bet that I've purchased more than anyone else on the board (humorous). I just always find that the guys that are very strongly "anti water change" are often having tank crashes or issues that would likely have been solved with routine water changes.

I wish marko the best of luck in the future and who knows, perhaps he can develop a method of no-work reefkeeping that can put me out of a job?

[Nate]

Exactly, I'm just trying to make a point, I do routine WC, vacuum, socks, maint, don't overfeed, maintain good water params, but sometimes when cyano gets the chance to rear its ugly head, the best maintenance in the world can't correct it.
I battled it for over a month, then I chemicleaned it and now it's gone, I'm back to my regular routine(that worked for years) and no sign of cyano, tank is happy and I'm happy.
So to say that Marcos problem is because he doesn't do routine water changes is a farce, and to say that doing routine wc will clear it up in a few weeks is a greater farce.

Ok Im wrong nuke it with the chemiclean!

You did 4 20 % water changes after you did the chemiclean to get your skimmer back in order Cal. Willing to bet that helped whatever parameter was out when you had it. Maybe prevented it from coming back? No?

[Cal_stir]

No I am not battling cyano right now, I won my battle with chemiclean and I was sharing my experience with Marco so he could make an informed decision about using chemiclean and or other maintenance to help in his battle with cyano, you are just throwing him under the bus for not doing routine water changes, I know people who don't do routine water changes and have successful reef tanks.

[MarkoD]

Why do you think a large enough refugium with lots of macro algae can't keep perameters in check?

this is my cheato ball a week after harvesting it

http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss232/IvankaD/Screenshot2012-03-05at31931PM.png

[Cal_stir]

Ok Im wrong nuke it with the chemiclean!

You did 4 20 % water changes after you did the chemiclean to get your skimmer back in order Cal. Willing to bet that helped whatever parameter was out when you had it. Maybe prevented it from coming back? No?

Dude, your not reading the thread, I did daily 10% water changes for a month while I was battling the cyano, it didn't help, I did 4 20% water changes after the chemiclean to get my skimmer to not overflow.

[Nate]

Dude, your not reading the thread, I did daily 10% water changes for a month while I was battling the cyano, it didn't help, I did 4 20% water changes after the chemiclean to get my skimmer to not overflow.

I thought I was clear in my last post guess not...

You won with chemiclean yes...

But did 80 gallons of water changes to get your skimmer to calm down yes...

Do you think that the fact that the cyano did not come back, after removing the chemiclean was because maybe you adjusted your water chemistry with that big of a water change?

[MarkoD]

I thought I was clear in my last post guess not...

You won with chemiclean yes...

But did 80 gallons of water changes to get your skimmer to calm down yes...

Do you think that the fact that the cyano did not come back, after removing the chemiclean was because maybe you adjusted your water chemistry with that big of a water change?

he did this before chemiclean "I did daily 10% water changes for a month while I was battling the cyano"

10 percent per day for 30 days is more than 20 percent per day for 4 days

[Nate]

Why do you think a large enough refugium with lots of macro algae can't keep perameters in check?

this is my cheato ball a week after harvesting it



LOL this is not a battle of whos balls are bigger marko. YEs that cheato will assist with some degree of nutrient export. No I dont think you can run a tank without doing water changes on a fairly regular basis. Yes, I challenge you to prove me wrong. Yes, I assume you will be on here in a couple more months with another problem asking everyone " whats wrong with my..." and then arguing the fact that it has nothing to do with water changes.

Once again, I hope everything works out for you.

I could show you the piddly little ball of cheato in my 500 gallon, but thats exactly it, its a piddly little ball, as I do WATER CHANGES to maintain low levels of nitrates!

[MarkoD]

LOL this is not a battle of whos balls are bigger marko. YEs that cheato will assist with some degree of nutrient export. No I dont think you can run a tank without doing water changes on a fairly regular basis. Yes, I challenge you to prove me wrong. Yes, I assume you will be on here in a couple more months with another problem asking everyone " whats wrong with my..." and then arguing the fact that it has nothing to do with water changes.

Once again, I hope everything works out for you.

I could show you the piddly little ball of cheato in my 500 gallon, but thats exactly it, its a piddly little ball, as I do WATER CHANGES to maintain low levels of nitrates!

oh like when you told me to do a water change to stop my cleaner wrasse from nipping at my clams?

im sure you'll be back in a couple of months, failing to read, skip to the last page, and recommend something generic like "do a water change"

if you're such a successful reef keeper, why dont you show us all your accomplishments and your 50 service customers tanks

[Nate]

When I told you to do water changes, I was:

A) trying to help

B) YOU DIDNT TELL US YOUR CLEANER WRASSE WAS NIPPING YOUR CLAMS!

Guys my clams wont open any ideas?




Then later in the thread... the cleaner wrasse keeps nipping them think thats it?

YAY no water changes necessary?

Dont worry marko when you have a crash I'll slip into the thread for advice bro.

[MarkoD]

When I told you to do water changes, I was:

A) trying to help

B) YOU DIDNT TELL US YOUR CLEANER WRASSE WAS NIPPING YOUR CLAMS!

Guys my clams wont open any ideas?




Then later in the thread... the cleaner wrasse keeps nipping them think thats it?

YAY no water changes necessary?

Dont worry marko when you have a crash I'll slip into the thread for advice bro.

dont worry about me, i dont want your advice

my point was that not everything can be solved with a water change. which is why i come here to look for actual helpful advice.

any idiot can come in here and say "just do a water change, it fixes everything"

[Nate]

You got me...

"I'm not claiming divinity. I've never claimed purity of soul. I've never claimed to have the answers to life. I only put out songs and answer questions as honestly as I can... But I still believe in peace, love and understanding." - John Lennon


Good luck on your future endeavours, marko.

[MarkoD]

will water changes starve the aptasia in my tank?

[daniella3d]

Probably because that's the first thing everybody try and it does not work. When ever I get cyano, I get it where I have the most flow in my tank, and have absolutely zero where the flow is gentle.

The flow simply spread it better, that's all, and cyanobacteria just plain love flow, so it seem in my tank.

Did anyone try to increase flow to the areas where cyano is present? I know it's pretty basic but I don't recall anyone talking about flow. Some chemicals have also helped me but I recommend some caution if going that route.

[Nate]

will water changes starve the aptasia in my tank?

Nope, they'll only feed into it with all the minor elements you are missing from not doing water changes.

You working on your post count here?

[Aquattro]

Has anyone suggested water changes? Sorry, haven't read the thread...

[The Grizz]

GOOD GOD!!! This is getting rediculas!!! You two guys should really just leave each other alown.

Nate, I have only done 1 water change in the last 6 months in my 165 so does that also mean my tank is doomed? I don't have alot of SPS but I do have a few. Everything in my tank is thriving so it's safe to say not every tank needs bi-weekly WC.

MarkoD, I also agree with danillas last post. It dose seem that when my cyano shows its ugly red face it is in a higher flow area. I had it really bad for a long time until I started to make changes to my system but not to battle the cyano. I added carbon, GFO, pellets, changed my MH / T5's to LED's & got a bigger better skimmer. Now I can't really say what if any of these helped battle the cyano but I do see it more frequent when my pellets get low, does that mean anything.....I have no idea.

To sum it up make a few changes that don't cost a lot of money. Try switching up you light cycle, break it up into 2 sections of the day for high light periods or shorten it. Syphon out what you can, don't blow it off the rock and hope to catch it all in the water column

[reefwars]

karma

[claymax]

WHAT IS THIS REEF CENTRAL!?

[dc4]

Marko, try dosing vodka, ever since I started with vodka its has helped control the excess nutrients in my tank. I only do a water change when I clean out my sump and thats only once every 2-3 months though I do add 5g of ro a week due to evaporation but everything in my tank is doing great. I also overfeed my tank at least twice a day but my tests always come out zeros.

[MarkoD]

Marko, try dosing vodka, ever since I started with vodka its has helped control the excess nutrients in my tank. I only do a water change when I clean out my sump and thats only once every 2-3 months though I do add 5g of ro a week due to evaporation but everything in my tank is doing great. I also overfeed my tank at least twice a day but my tests always come out zeros.

Thanks for the suggestion,I've actually started dosing microbacter7 to build up the bacteria, I think another week of than and then vodka

[Cal_stir]

Thanks for the suggestion,I've actually started dosing microbacter7 to build up the bacteria, I think another week of than and then vodka

I started microbacter7 a few weeks into my battle, followed the ULN instructions, I thought that the daily 10% WC was stripping the bacteria from my system, after a week or so I started the biofuel as well, although it didn't make a dent in the cyano I am still dosing it as a preventative measure but at the stabalized dose, I've been cyano free for a month now ( I feel like a recovering addict ), be careful with the vodka as I understand it's like biofuel on steroids and can strip all nutrient from your system and cause a bacteria bloom.

I think you should be able to breathe a sigh of relief today, some fresh carbon and a few 20% wc should get your skimmer back to normal in a few days.

[MarkoD]

I started microbacter7 a few weeks into my battle, followed the ULN instructions, I thought that the daily 10% WC was stripping the bacteria from my system, after a week or so I started the biofuel as well, although it didn't make a dent in the cyano I am still dosing it as a preventative measure but at the stabalized dose, I've been cyano free for a month now ( I feel like a recovering addict ), be careful with the vodka as I understand it's like biofuel on steroids and can strip all nutrient from your system and cause a bacteria bloom.

I think you should be able to breathe a sigh of relief today, some fresh carbon and a few 20% wc should get your skimmer back to normal in a few days.

thanks for your help man. i've got a 55 gallon tank of freshly made saltwater ready to go in tonight when i get home from work :)

[Cal_stir]

Your welcome and good luck. RID THE CYANO!:biggrin:

[Reef Pilot]

Thanks for the suggestion,I've actually started dosing microbacter7 to build up the bacteria, I think another week of than and then vodka
Give the MB7 time to work before adding vodka or other carbon sources. I dosed MB7 heavily first couple weeks, then only about once a week there after. The beneficial bacteria needs to be well established, before gradually adding carbon, or you will have even more cyano. But once the MB7 and beneficial bacteria are established, the carbon (I use bio pellets) will do the job. I have not seen cyana since.

[Nano]

Hey Marko, I havent read the entire thread but most of it, Have you tried a black out period at all? I have heard that it helps as well, or atleast shortening you light cycle. I could be wrong though. Hope the battle goes well. Cyano is an ugly "b"

[Cal_stir]

I tried the blackout, 4 days no light except 1/2 hour a day ambient light to feed the fish, cyano was gone but quickly returned a couple days later and seemed to spread even faster.
Cyano is probably the most resilient, opportunistic thing on this planet and normally we can keep it in check but sometimes something happens and you get a plague.
I am totally against chemical treatments but I have to thank chemiclean, I was getting ready to quit.

[burgerchow]

Blackout works great. Has to be totally blacked out though, not even a peep of light. I conquered Dino's with a complete blackout for 5days. Covered the whole tank with my motorcycle cover. Also, when I lighted up, replaced fixture with all new bulbs.

[MarkoD]

so i got home from work yesterday, ready to do a water change and my nicests, most expensive clam is dead. retracted and gaping.
it was looking good the night before


other 3 clams looked fine and are still fine now.

[Proteus]

I highly doubt it was from the cemi clean. I have 8 clams and cemiclean has never bothered them.
I'm guessing your clam that died is the blue maxima from Steve. I also have one.
Sorry for loss

[Cal_stir]

Sorry to hear Marco

I have to believe you had some underlying condition in your tank, something was sick, infected, dieing or something and that is what was fueling your cyano, chemiclean is an oxidizer so it would probably kill something that was sick or dieing.

[MarkoD]

I highly doubt it was from the cemi clean. I have 8 clams and cemiclean has never bothered them.
I'm guessing your clam that died is the blue maxima from Steve. I also have one.
Sorry for loss

yeah thats the one. is yours still doing ok?

[Proteus]

Yeah it's good but highly irritable. That's Alot of money to loose. A ****ty way to wake on a sat

But cal is right. The cemi clean will work like hydrogen peroxide does on a wound. Oxidizing dead flesh. but if you clam was good yesterday it seems odd to die in one day.

I never read the thread completely as I couldn't be bothered with the arguments but was that your first wc since the cemiclean. When ever I was used that product. It was about 150 gal worth of changing. On a 250 g system

[MarkoD]

Yeah I had waited 48 hours and was ready to do a water change. The clam died sometime 30-48 hours after the chemiclean.

Nothing else had changed in the tank.

The clam was doing really well, it had even attached itself to the rock I had it on. There was sign of new growth.

[fishytime]

I have to believe you had some underlying condition in your tank, something was sick, infected, dieing or something and that is what was fueling your cyano, chemiclean is an oxidizer so it would probably kill something that was sick or dieing.

+1......or it could be that perhaps 14 months with minimal water changes are finally catching up with the system.....

[MarkoD]

+1......or it could be that perhaps 14 months with minimal water changes are finally catching up with the system.....

So it only effects one clam and nothing else?

[Proteus]

I know you say wc are not realistic for you. And I would understand if fowlr. But it may help just to do a monthly change.
I know you dose the essential and everything looks great but even once a month will only take a hour of your time.

I dose cal alk mag. And prodibio. I did try the route of no wc. But wasn't happy with growth rates in my tank.
I do a biweekly change of 50 gallons which I do while cleaning tank. I believe it does wonders as my cheato nor mangroves will grow. I started with a base ball size chunk and 6 months later it's the same size.
Wc never did help with my cyano problems but after using cemiclean I switched to RODI and cut feedings down to half. My tank hasn't seen cyano since and the wc seem to keep my tank cleaner

[Cal_stir]

I think that if you don't have a nutrient problem the main reason for wc is to replenish trace elements, however, they can be dosed.
I am pro wc but that doesn't mean it's necessary.

[fishytime]

So it only effects one clam and nothing else?

you had cyano!.....that means excess nutrients!.....

[MarkoD]

Maybe I'm confused. I thought clams take in neutrients to grow.

And why would excess neutrients effect one clam negatively but not the others?
Some of my corals seem to have benefited in the last month while I've had cyano

[Proteus]

Clams like nitrates. True.

My last battle with cyano was due to a Cbb which I was purposely over feeding my tank so it would eat. Even though I tested water and got zeros across the board I new there were nutrients in there that were feeding the cyano. I wonder if it was leach from the rocks as a few months before I had a ha outbreak from high po4. Even though the water colomn did not test high in those nutrients the rock and sand could be rich

[MarkoD]

Thanks.

If all fails I'll just do a fowlr and get the clown trigger I've always wanted

[Cal_stir]

you had cyano!.....that means excess nutrients!.....

I think there is more to the equation than that.

[burgerchow]

Thanks.

If all fails I'll just do a fowlr and get the clown trigger I've always wanted

yeah, a large 8" clown trigger, a big harlequin tusk, couple of angels, a sohal tang, couple of lookdowns, would look awesome in a 180

[daniella3d]

and don't forget to quarantine everything, as it would be sad to see that bunch of fish die in less then 2 days.

yeah, a large 8" clown trigger, a big harlequin tusk, couple of angels, a sohal tang, couple of lookdowns, would look awesome in a 180

[mattdean]

you had cyano!.....that means excess nutrients!.....

Actually, not at all. I have NEVER had P04 or N03 readings n my tank - I mean NEVER! Not since day one of the tank. I have incredible flow, new bulbs, I under feed my tank, exceptional filtration, there is NO way I should have cyano, yet, it grows in the darkest parts of my tank, on powerheads and in front of the returns of my closed loop. Cyano is a bacteria, not an algae. There are so many different forms and it's next to impossible to know what is feeding it sometimes.

Of course, you need to be sure you do not have excess nutrients. Agreed. But I got Cyano after trying bio pellets and I can't get rid of it, despite trying everything that has been suggested. Even Red Slime Remover. Something is feeding it. Just can't figure out what. The funny thing is, my tank, otherwise is all but perfect. Corals are happy, fish are happy, parameters are spot on and it only grows on the rocks, never the sand. Go figure.

[Reef Pilot]

But I got Cyano after trying bio pellets and I can't get rid of it, despite trying everything that has been suggested. Even Red Slime Remover. Something is feeding it. Just can't figure out what. The funny thing is, my tank, otherwise is all but perfect. Corals are happy, fish are happy, parameters are spot on and it only grows on the rocks, never the sand. Go figure.
Getting Cyano after bio pellets is very common if you don't start gradually and you don't use MB7. The latter is very important to establish beneficial bacteria before starting bio pellets. The beneficial bacteria will out compete the Cyano when consuming the bio pellets or other carbon sources (like vodka).

But have to ask, if you have zero N03 and P04 why are you even using bio pellets?

[fishytime]

Actually, not at all. I have NEVER had P04 or N03 readings n my tank -.

nutrients is somewhat of a blanket term......lots of people have readings of zero across the board and still have algae and other problems like cyano

[mattdean]

Getting Cyano after bio pellets is very common if you don't start gradually and you don't use MB7. The latter is very important to establish beneficial bacteria before starting bio pellets. The beneficial bacteria will out compete the Cyano when consuming the bio pellets or other carbon sources (like vodka).

But have to ask, if you have zero N03 and P04 why are you even using bio pellets?

This is a good question to which I have a good answer....I am stupid and impulsive! :redface: I was getting into a lot of SPS (I have around 80 SPS in my tank) and I wanted to pre-empt any nutrient problems, since I am heavily stocked and wanted to feed my tank more.

I started very slowly, with 200ml for a 125 gallon tank with a 55 gallon sump, and never had more than 500ml. I dosed bacteria and did everything I was "supposed" to do, but I got hit with cyano anyway. Unfortunately, since my nutrients were so low to begin with, I was stripping my tank to where the corals didn't like it and I couldn't seem to feed the tank enough, so i took them off line.

But I don't want to highjack the thread. I just wanted to give another experience.

[MarkoD]

i've changed over 100 gallons over the past few days. skimmer still going nuts.

anyone have any better suggestions? i've also been running carbon in a reactor for few days

[dc4]

What I did after I used a cyano cleaner was empty the skimmer cup every time it filled up. I must have sat there emptied it over 20 times before it started to settle down. Just have premixed water ready and replace what is emptied.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

[MarkoD]

My skimmer cup fills up in like 10 seconds with foam

[dc4]

My skimmer cup fills up in like 10 seconds with foam

Yep, keep emptying the foam.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

[MarkoD]

Yep, keep emptying the foam.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

hmm ok ill try it, thanks

[Mandosh]

Have you tried doing a water change?

[jordan_vermette]

I had that bad what I did was take out as much as i could and cut off the lights had them on for like 2 hours and had to put a blanket over my tank to make sure no ether light was going in the tank

[MarkoD]

Have you tried doing a water change?

that has to be a joke:lol:

[Proteus]

Marko I did 150 gallon worth of changes. And fineally tied skimmer into Pail. It was filling for a bit then got speratic. It will calm down though.

[MarkoD]

So keep the skimmer running and overflowing?

[Proteus]

yeah you bet

its frustrating but not much else you can do

[Cal_stir]

can you dial it back till it calms down and then dial it up slowly, thats what i did.

[Nate]

Have you tried doing a water change?

careful mandosh...you're walking on thin ice... thats not the problem

In all seriousness, carbon, and running your skimmer without a cup (if you can handle microbubbles) will help calm it down.

Also changing some of the water to physically remove the antibiotics will help but I dont want to go on record suggesting that

[MarkoD]

Ive changed over 150 gallons so far. Been running the skimmer since yesterday. No improvement

[Ross]

can you dial it back till it calms down and then dial it up slowly, thats what i did.

+1...

This is what I had to do after my last dose of chemi pure.
I replaced by volume 75% of tank water over 3 changes and the skimmer wouldnt settle down until then.

[MarkoD]

any idea why my rocks are turning form a nice purple to a poop brown?

[RedCoralEdmonton]

My guess would be diatoms, and that underlying problem that has yet to be figured out....

Steve

[MarkoD]

diatoms cause by silica?

how do i control it? i've changed over 150 gallons over the course of a few days and used RO/DI water

[Nate]

diatoms cause by silica?

how do i control it? i've changed over 150 gallons over the course of a few days and used RO/DI water

Not sure if you have been doing a really good gravel wash yet but I would do that. Also, you are probably going through a mini cycle due to using an antibiotic and dips in your oxygen levels.

[gregzz4]

you are probably going through a mini cycle due to using an antibiotic and dips in your oxygen levels.
This would be my thought

Are you aerating ?

[MarkoD]

I've got a sump. Orp reads between 405 and 420 like it always has.

But yeah mini cycle could be possible I suppose

[Cal_stir]

I had a small diatom bloom on my glass and substrate, nothing on my rocks. Your tank is going thru a mini cycle.
Are you dosing microbacter?
Are you dosing vodka?
I was dosing the ULN dosage of microbacter and biofuel.
I don't know what the dosage for vodka would be but there should be some info on this forum.
I did a 10% wc @ a week after to vacuum my sustrate, diatoms pretty much cleared up after that.
I also turkey basted my rocks.

[Finley]

Hey All,

I see you are on page 17 so I'm guessing you are still debating the cyano issue and since I don't have the time to read the entire post, here is what I used to do and it works without fail every time.

I would dose my tank with Erythromycin, specifically Aquarium Pharmaceuticals EM Erythromycin Fish Medicine Powder Packets.

Here a link so you can see what it looks like.

http://aquaterras.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1006

I would buy it at Petland and dose 1 packet per 10g mixed with a little tank water then add to tank. I wouldn't dump the packets right in. TURN OFF YOUR SKIMMER! It works quickly and after a couple days it should be mostly gone. Have a filter sock or something on to catch what goes out your overflow.

I would keep my skimmer off for this time and then do a 25% water change after 2 days. Then another smaller one a few days later. Obviously when I turn my skimmer back on I would have to dial it back, but since I was doing water changes it didn't matter so much.

Once I figured this out I never worried about cyano. I think once its in your tank it never really goes away. I would probably to this once a year or so.

Now of course I'm sure the debate will start so I'll say this. It works and tank was just fine. I learned this trick from Colby at Elite before he rode off into the sunset. I haven't had to do this for awhile since I downsized my tank and have T5s instead of MH lighting so go figure.

[bigal]

i get it every spring. and i find my silica buster filter on my RO/DI gets taxed realy fast four about 3 months.i think its all the spring run off

[pseudonym]

I wish marko the best of luck in the future and who knows, perhaps he can develop a method of no-work reefkeeping that can put me out of a job?

It is called Monaco filtration.

Quick question here. When you say cyano "problem" could someone please define "problem" for me? I have had one patch appear, slightly larger than a loonie. Is that a "problem"? Should I be actually doing something about it or should I just adjust my regime slightly and see if I can cut it down or stop the spread? It is only in my DSB, no where else and I have pretty much zero nuisance algae anywhere in my tank (so little I find it annoying as i would LIKE to have a sea hair.. *sigh*)

I am pretty sure that the problem is that I am over feeding the tank (although I have it on what is called a calorie restricted diet, so I only "feed" every two days, but I think I have been over feeding to compensate). Going to try and reduce feeding a little bit and see how that does.

As for water changes... It really depends on what kind of system you are running and how loaded it is. There are major aquaria that do water changes "infrequently or never". The Dymico system is a very good example (I used to have an entire chart of major aquaria that don't do water changes, but I can't find the damn thing any more). These are world class systems that never do a water change. HOWEVER, if you aren't running a system designed for it, I would say you would be crazy not to do them. I think that quite a bit of religion has grown up out of water changes, and for a very good reason. If you don't know what is going on in your tank and aren't monitoring it constantly to see if you actually NEED to do a water change, then doing 10%/week will save you no end of problems, simply as a precaution.

I did a huge amount of research into this before starting. I probably spent as much time doing just research as most people take to get fish in their tank (several months of research). The first thing I learned is that there is absolutely no scientific consensus that exists in aquaria at all. Ask five different scientists and you will get five different answers. I have literally looked at research studies on the same subject that come to completely different conclusions, all done by creditable institutions. We don't know the long term effects of skimming, we do know that it increases hydrophobic bacteria counts to well above what you would find in nature. What does that mean.. hell if I know, and no one else does either!

In the end, we are all feeling around in the dark about a subject were there are little facts known and many rules of thumb. Hell, I don't even run a traditional Monaco setup as I use FAR less filtration than even Jaulbert does and instead rely on micro fauna populations to control organic removal. My system has characteristics of several "natural" systems. I use macro for nutrient export like in a Smithsonian Style Aquarium as described by Adey and Loveland. As well as use minimal forced filtration in order to keep as much live plankton in the water column as I can. I use a DSB and a plenum as found in Monaco and Dymico systems and lastly I use the 1lbs/gal rule for live rock in the display as commonly found in Berlin systems. If I could find one at a reasonable price I would be using a positive displacement pump as used in a true Smithsonian Style Aquarium so that I don't have fauna loss due to cavitation as the water is pumped from sump to display. All that means is that the pressure on my nutrients is always DOWN. It is actually a problem as if it gets too low, you risk your macro going sexual on you (to combat that you need to use 24/7 lighting in the fuge).

So.. will it work long term.. who the hell knows! It is working now, can't say everything is perfect, but I would expect that with any system I am running. I am not super advanced in the hobby, just do research in my job professionally so doing in depth functional studies are just.. well something I do and am quite good at. I still have so much practical knowledge to learn it isn't funny. That being said, I seem to have hit on a method that works without the overhead and maintenance. Other than adding in fresh water to combat evaporation, I have only needed to do one water change (due to my own incompetence) at this point from the time it was set up.

Figured I would put up a video. I think I ****ed off everyone in the city with my questions about skimmers and I figure it is time to show off a bit of what all the advice resulted in =). If you ask around Edmonton about "The monaco guy" that would be me =). I know it is small (until I get my 90 set up) and it isn't nearly as fancy as some of your guy's tanks (this is a LOW tech, getto experimental tank), but I am quite proud of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRTbZiGfllM&feature=plcp

[reefwars]

We don't know the long term effects of skimming, we do know that it increases hydrophobic bacteria counts to well above what you would find in nature. What does that mean.. hell if I know, and no one else does either!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRTbZiGfllM&feature=plcp



what do you mean by this??


skimmings been around for a long time what would you call long term??

[pseudonym]

Hey Denny!

Thanks for the Zoas BTW.. LOVE them. =) Bring moar!! Are you coming to frag fest?

As for "long term".. running continuously for 10+ years on a system where we have actual research into the effects of skimming as compared to natural ocean reefs, with a control system and then repeating it several times in order to compare. I would say somewhere in the region of 50 - 75 years when added together and run concurrently over that 10 year period. IE: a rigorous scientific long term study of the effects of skimming. Something we don't have and it appears no one is currently doing. That *I* can find at any rate.

Advanced Aquarist published two detailed studies on skimmers. The first was to create a framework for evaluation, the second to actually do the evaluation. The results were surprising to say the least. Looking at the composition of skimmate is suggestive of a vast amount of micro fauna being removed along with organic compounds. Again, the research is very preliminary, we know next to nothing about the effects and while I can look at the composition to say "This is suggestive of" we don't actually KNOW what skimmers remove.

Bacterial counts are very interesting and a huge black hole in our knowledge. it is believed that it may be linked to coral spawning, or it may be linked to general health. We simply don't know. All we can do is compare it to natural systems and say that the count of hydrophobic bacteria is higher than in natural systems. We can't even say what kind of bacteria it is and can only describe general characteristics such a hydrophobic let alone say with any certainty what the long term effects are.

[pseudonym]

Just re-read the study on bacterial populations and protein skimmers. It is even worse than I stated. We can't even say with any certainty that hydrophobic bacteria levels are increased. The exact conclusion is that there is an evolutionary preasure that will almost certainly result in increased populations of hydrophobic bacteria. In the words of the study:

"Aquaria subjected to active filtration via skimming present water column bacteria populations that are approximately 1/10 of those observed on natural reefs. The consequences of this disparity on the long-term health of the tank's livestock are not known. How do reef tank organisms adapt to such a bacteria-deficient environment? Is the whole food web in an aquarium perturbed, or are there compensatory mechanisms that maintain an appropriate energy transduction through all of the trophic levels? Is "old tank syndrome" related to possible nutritional deficiencies stemming from this bacteria "gap"? Alternatively, could "old tank syndrome" be symptomatic of a gradual decrease of bacterial diversity as a consequence of selective skimmer-based removal of only bubble-susceptible bacteria? At present, it is not possible to go beyond speculation on these points - further research is needed."