Warning

[Aquattro]

Make sure you don't have anything that can leak directly over your powerbar. Just sayin'......:neutral:

[NorthernCoral]

lol I could have used this warning about 4 months ago, before i woke up to fireworks in the livingroom at 5 am lol.... Common sense where are you?

[reefwars]

lol I could have used this warning about 4 months ago, before i woke up to fireworks in the livingroom at 5 am lol.... Common sense where are you?



i had this warning a reality to me last year when my zoa tank caught fire.....i dont learn things for long apparently:mrgreen:

[banditpowdercoat]

Or, when you have a powerhead plugged into wall. Make sure you can see the plug. I had one behind the side of my couch. Came home from camp, smelled electrical burnt. Water leaked inside cable and wicked all the way to the plug. ZZZAAAAAPPPPPPP

[justincgdick]

Betchya didn't know that distilled water is non conductive. Add a packet of salt and zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzap.

[Aquattro]

The house is mostly clear of smoke....the smell will probably linger a while.

[banditpowdercoat]

Oh yes, the smell. linger it will! When I change a burnt motor at work, just opening the connection box makes my clothes stink for the rest of the day!

[Aquattro]

luckily the carpet got wet around the bar, so it didn't fully engulf in flames. But the family had to vacate for a couple hours. Of course I wasn't home....

[lockrookie]

such a thing is had to do with a under thank sump system if u could put all thaat is electrical elsewherei would i just try to water proof the area as best as possible. and pray

[gregzz4]

luckily the carpet got wet around the bar, so it didn't fully engulf in flames. But the family had to vacate for a couple hours. Of course I wasn't home....

Did this have anything to do with the chiller by chance ?

Just sayin' as your luck is not so great as of now

[Aquattro]

Did this have anything to do with the chiller by chance ?

Just sayin' as your luck is not so great as of now


No, my quarantine tank is beside the frag tank, with the power bar on the floor (smart thing #1). Aquaclear filter hasn't been cleaned lately (smart thing #2) and dripped onto the frag tank power bar. I thought I smelled something last night, but (smart thing #3) I didn't see anything and ignored it. Tonight, I get call from wife to get a$$ home now, as house is on fire.

As for the chiller, it just decided to work properly since I posted. Go figure...

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Holy bleep that was close. Glad it wasn't worse.

[reefwars]

No, my quarantine tank is beside the frag tank, with the power bar on the floor (smart thing #1). Aquaclear filter hasn't been cleaned lately (smart thing #2) and dripped onto the frag tank power bar. I thought I smelled something last night, but (smart thing #3) I didn't see anything and ignored it. Tonight, I get call from wife to get a$$ home now, as house is on fire.

As for the chiller, it just decided to work properly since I posted. Go figure...


buddy thats the EXACT same thing that happened to me powerbar behind the tank, aquaclear dripped onto bar....came home to a tank that had no movement .....i went in and stuck my finger in the tank..the i noticed the burn marks up the wall and all the plugs and powerbar were melted:)





hope everything is ok

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Woke up one morning and no movement in my tank except for the HOB skimmer because my wife decided that rather than turn off the timer to shut off the light the night before, it was a much "better" idea to shut off the whole fricken powerbar. :evil::drinking::microwav::silly:

This is why I always try to have different equipment on different powerbars so a short won't shut off ALL the flow or all the heat.

[Aquattro]

Holy bleep that was close. Glad it wasn't worse.

The big deal was Elise in the house. We had to evacuate her and her nurse while we dealt with it

[reefwars]

Woke up one morning and no movement in my tank except for the HOB skimmer because my wife decided that rather than turn off the timer to shut off the light the night before, it was a much "better" idea to shut off the whole fricken powerbar. :evil::drinking::microwav::silly:

This is why I always try to have different equipment on different powerbars so a short won't shut off ALL the flow or all the heat.


same here 2 breakers with everything split:) or at least i try too lol

[Borderjumper]

You were really lucky someone was home, or that it wasn't the middle of the night. Glad everyone is ok!:olympic::onfire:

[ScubaSteve]

Yeah, I've done the old' HOB drip trick iN the past. Recently I had my media reactor spring a leak right into my timers. That was also a barrel o' monkeys...

[Aquattro]

You were really lucky someone was home, or that it wasn't the middle of the night. Glad everyone is ok!:olympic::onfire:

Ya, nurse was here with E. Middle of the night we have the nurse up doing stuff, so we wouldn't have died in our sleep. Probably would have woke up after the nurse ran out screaming :)

[Rice Reef]

Glad to hear everyone is safe... I better check all my electrical this weekend... Too much water and plugs around... Thank you for sharing, Brad

[gregzz4]

No, my quarantine tank is beside the frag tank, with the power bar on the floor (smart thing #1). Aquaclear filter hasn't been cleaned lately (smart thing #2) and dripped onto the frag tank power bar. I thought I smelled something last night, but (smart thing #3) I didn't see anything and ignored it. Tonight, I get call from wife to get a$$ home now, as house is on fire.

As for the chiller, it just decided to work properly since I posted. Go figure...
Sounds like a whole lot of Lucky Beer stuff goin' on :razz:

You should start another thread and call it " Just Missed Catastrophes, starring Brad .... "

I won't quote them all, but I've been watchin' since last Nov :wink:


OOOOoooooo I forgot about the Chiller ... :smile::smile::smile:

Good thing it started working, huh ? !!!! Good news :mrgreen:

[wickedfrags]

Agreed, and better still, don't use powerbars as they are not ideally suited to handle the amount of amperage we sent through them....always the weak link in your electrical circuit.

If you have to use them, consider mounting them to the underside of your tank.

Make sure you don't have anything that can leak directly over your powerbar. Just sayin'......:neutral:

[Doug]

Wholley crap Brad. Glad everything & everyone is ok.

[mike31154]

Wow, close call. Good thing no one is injured or too much damage to home. Good reminder to ensure all equipment with a cord that has anything to do with tank has a drip loop, on a GFCI & power bars are as far away as practical from the water. Never heard about water wicking right thru the cord to the plug though, so I learned something new reading this thread. Starting to feel a bit nervous about having my LED light power supply mounted in the center compartment under the stand. There's no sump or anything so it's dry down there, but if the tank itself ever develops a leak, who knows what could happen. But I suppose if the tank springs a large enough leak, there would be other issues. My hang on skimmer is mounted beside the tank on a little stand. Below it I've mounted my two main power bars, so not ideal either if the skimmer decides to leak. I have the power bars mounted upside down & diagonally though, so there's much less chance of water ingress in the event of a minor leak. If it's a major one, well, the wall plug itself isn't that far away, so bad things will happen in any case if the GFCI doesn't do its thing.

[Lance]

Whew.

[StirCrazy]

Make sure you don't have anything that can leak directly over your powerbar. Just sayin'......:neutral:

Again? oh man you have bad luck with powerbars and lights.

anyways hope everyone is fine, and that theres not any damage you can't fix

Steve

[justincgdick]

I take it you weren't using GFCIs?

I don't want this to come across wrong, but not using GFI protection is extremely risky on a reef tank. There's not much more you could do to be more unsafe in your home.

You really need to have a bunch of plugs to protect the whole system because you don't want to take down the system in one fell swoop with a single GFI to a powerbar, although it's safe as long as you don't over current the plug or circuit.

I don't mean to be snappy or insulting with this, but it really is a life or death deal. Nobody wants a house to burn down when a fish splashes.

[gregzz4]

I have 13 GFCIs and 2 Surge suppressors :mrgreen:
Think it'll do the trick ? :lol:

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx136/Gregzz4/75%20Gallon%20Build/Panel.jpg

[justincgdick]

Yes, that's perfect. I don't understand why there are no surge protectors (being sold) where each plug is it's own GFI. For reefers it would be awesome.

Ideally you'd have a few different circuits, lightly loaded with a surge protection (might as well protect the whole house at the panel) and separate GFIs for all the gear. A few switches are nice too so you can shut down a pump or whatever easily. A few regular plugs are good for anything that doesn't contact water and you want to save a few bucks. The electrical along can run $200-600 for a big tank. That's just under the stand.

[gregzz4]

FYI for anyone looking at my contraption ...
The GFCIs are not hard-wired - they are corded to the power bars so are still controllable

[Coralgurl]

Glad to hear all turned out ok, what a scary situation, you must have angels looking out for you!

I was thinking about starting an electrical thread to see how everyone has theirs set up. I have my power bars attached to the legs of my stand, as I make such a mess with water, but I'm out of plug ins and need more equipment.....

Gregzz4 - where did you find those outlets?

[gregzz4]

Gregzz4 - where did you find those outlets?
I made them
PM me if you start an electrical thread and I'll link the parts

[kole]

Gregzz4 why do you have so many gfci's? Its my understanding that you would only need one per circuit.

[gregzz4]

When I first started designing the panel, what crossed my mind was how disasterous would it be if something blows a GFCI ? How many hardware pieces would go down all at once ?
I decided to give every piece that contacts water it's own

[gregzz4]

... and 2 Surge suppressors :mrgreen:
Oops, I actually have 3

[kole]

When I first started designing the panel, what crossed my mind was how disasterous would it be if something blows a GFCI ? How many hardware pieces would go down all at once ?
I decided to give every piece that contacts water it's own

Good idea. I have mine running off 2 gfci but now you have me thinking of rewiring. I would like to have a plastic box similar to a panel box that I could mount the electrical inside. I have looked at a lot of storage boxes but can't find at suitable one. I would also like to see arc fault interrupters designed the same way as gfci. By that I mean being able to replace a single outlet with a afci.

[Coralgurl]

I will start one, but no time until tomorrow...

[justincgdick]

You could just replace the standard breaker with an arc fault. It's my opinion that the gfci is the most important piece.

It's really smart to have multiple GFIs. You don't want to lose every piece of gear at once, especially if you are on vacation or whatever. Losing a powerhead isn't the end of the world like your whole system shutting down for a few days.

Greg pointed out on my DIY build that I only had one GFI. I was going to run everything through it, but I don't want to lose the whole system at once. My tank is fresh water, and a lot lower risk, but it's still a risk. I ended up getting six GFIs and pretty much splitting each item to it's own GFI. You can share low risk things like dosers, fans, etc. but your return pump, CL, skimmers, etc. should really have their own.

I also added a few switches so I can easily shut down my CL and return pump if I need to for maintenance without digging around and tracing wires.

It's also handy to use a labeller to label the plugs and matching cables. That way everything has it's place and is easy to unplug/ plug in.

[gregzz4]

You could just replace the standard breaker with an arc fault

I also added a few switches so I can easily shut down my CL and return pump if I need to for maintenance without digging around and tracing wires.

It's also handy to use a labeller to label the plugs and matching cables. That way everything has it's place and is easy to unplug/ plug in.
Arc faults have their drawbacks, but are a good addition if used correctly

I use the GFCI test button as as switch if I don't unplug something

I agree and all my stuff is labelled

[kole]

The fires were started with saltwater dripping on the power bars. Will a gfci stop or prevent the fire from starting or would you need a afci? I have no idea if it would or would not. I thought gfci were more for the physical safety of the person working around the tank.

[banditpowdercoat]

A AFI would offer more protection, but I think one needs both?. A GFI will only trip if it senses current going to ground, not back on the neutral. One can have a short on a GFI, between the hot and the Neutral and it not trip. Conversly, a AFI only trips when it senses an arc. Be it to ground or neutral. Most cases a AFI would work. Not on halide lights, I'm not sure. But say a pump leaks some to the tank, a AFI won't pick that up, a GFI will. AFI's can also trip by just switching or unpluging components. Heaters can sometimes trip them as well.

Like everything in this hobby, nothing is foolproof

[Doug]

A AFI would offer more protection, but I think one needs both?. A GFI will only trip if it senses current going to ground, not back on the neutral. One can have a short on a GFI, between the hot and the Neutral and it not trip. Conversly, a AFI only trips when it senses an arc. Be it to ground or neutral. Most cases a AFI would work. Not on halide lights, I'm not sure. But say a pump leaks some to the tank, a AFI won't pick that up, a GFI will. AFI's can also trip by just switching or unpluging components. Heaters can sometimes trip them as well.

Like everything in this hobby, nothing is foolproof

Yup, they wont fire halides. And yes, they do sometimes, {not often}, trip when pulling a plug. My home has AFI/GFI as standard breakers for both bedrooms and bathrooms. I believe its code here but not sure.

My office/fishroom, has that receptacle plus I installed a separate dedicated 15a line with its own GFI.

[StirCrazy]

A AFI would offer more protection, but I think one needs both?. A GFI will only trip if it senses current going to ground, not back on the neutral. One can have a short on a GFI, between the hot and the Neutral and it not trip. Conversly, a AFI only trips when it senses an arc. Be it to ground or neutral. Most cases a AFI would work. Not on halide lights, I'm not sure. But say a pump leaks some to the tank, a AFI won't pick that up, a GFI will. AFI's can also trip by just switching or unpluging components. Heaters can sometimes trip them as well.

Like everything in this hobby, nothing is foolproof

actualy a GFI measures the difference between the hot and the nutral, doesn't measure the ground at all. so this is wrong.

An arch fault breaker is esentualy useless on a fish tank unless you have an animal that chewes cords, especialy if you have MH lights, and I recomend against having them on anything important as they frequently have false positive trips. they are still trying to design a more reliable arc fault. It does pee me off that they made a misfunctioning componant code, hopefully they will come out with a more reliable version soon.
basicly if you have an electric motor, MH lighting, or any old school relays don't use Arc fault..

Steve

[banditpowdercoat]

actualy a GFI measures the difference between the hot and the nutral, doesn't measure the ground at all. so this is wrong.

An arch fault breaker is esentualy useless on a fish tank unless you have an animal that chewes cords, especialy if you have MH lights, and I recomend against having them on anything important as they frequently have false positive trips. they are still trying to design a more reliable arc fault. It does pee me off that they made a misfunctioning componant code, hopefully they will come out with a more reliable version soon.
basicly if you have an electric motor, MH lighting, or any old school relays don't use Arc fault..

Steve
No, I'm not wrong. It measures the difference between Hot and neutral, yes. So if it leaks to ground, it sees a difference. if the circuit is normal, or even if device has an internal short to neutral, it will not trip. Current flowing in the hot lead, equals current flowing on the Neutral. Only other place it can go is ground.
I mighta worded it a little funky, but by sensing the current to ground, it uses the imbalance of the H-N wires



And yes, in all new construction or wiring reno's, AFI is code in BC for bedrooms and bathrooms.

[justincgdick]

Being electrician, I would not bother with the arc fault. The gfi will be your first line and the breaker will trip if you short something.

[kole]

I read somewhere, probably here on canreef, that if you have gfci's then you need to have a grounding probe in the tank as well. What about the question I asked about the gfci preventing fires in the situation like what happened to the op. I don't think they are intended for that sort of protection more for personal protection when working around water with electricity. By the way I not arguing anything here. Since we have some electrician's posting I would like to get the information from those who would know more about these things than me.

[banditpowdercoat]

In most all cases, yes a GFI will trip and prevent fires. As a water leak onto the plug most times will short out the ground too. I was just stating that it's not foolproof. It has to short between hot and ground to work. And yes, to have the GFI protect tank water, the water should be grounded with a probe.

Plug placement and drip loops still are best practice too. never have powerbar just lying on floor or shelf plugs up. If it must sit on floor or shelf, lay it on its side atleast so water can't drip directly into it

[kole]

In most all cases, yes a GFI will trip and prevent fires. As a water leak onto the plug most times will short out the ground too. I was just stating that it's not foolproof. It has to short between hot and ground to work. And yes, to have the GFI protect tank water, the water should be grounded with a probe.

Plug placement and drip loops still are best practice too. never have powerbar just lying on floor or shelf plugs up. If it must sit on floor or shelf, lay it on its side atleast so water can't drip directly into it

Thanks I wasn't sure if you had directly answered my other post. Good info for everyone to know.

[justincgdick]

Like was said above, an arc fault would technically be best to prevent the fire like the OP had, but arc faults aren't perfect. You can "trick" them by accident when motors start up, etc. So while they do what we want, they also do what we don't want.

I myself would go with multiple breakers/ circuits for a big tank, surge protection (to protect a lot of valueble stuff), and multiple GFCIs.

[mike31154]

GFI device will trip without having a ground as well. That's the whole premise behind it actually protecting us from shock. If you contact the hot lead of a GFI protected circuit & sufficient current leaks through your body to an external ground, like a wet floor, it will trip since some current is going through your body instead of back through the neutral wire. The GFI current threshold is so low that it will trip the circuit before the current through your body is enough to be harmful. This will happen whether there is a ground prong present on the electrical receptacle or not. It's also why it's acceptable (even advisable for personal protection) to replace an old two prong receptacle in older circuits using no ground wire with a 3 prong GFI receptacle. The ground prong in this case is not connected to anything, but the GFI can still protect you by sensing a current leak through you to another grounded surface. Hope that makes sense.

[banditpowdercoat]

GFI device will trip without having a ground as well. That's the whole premise behind it actually protecting us from shock. If you contact the hot lead of a GFI protected circuit & sufficient current leaks through your body to an external ground, like a wet floor, it will trip since some current is going through your body instead of back through the neutral wire. The GFI current threshold is so low that it will trip the circuit before the current through your body is enough to be harmful. This will happen whether there is a ground prong present on the electrical receptacle or not. It's also why it's acceptable (even advisable for personal protection) to replace an old two prong receptacle in older circuits using no ground wire with a 3 prong GFI receptacle. The ground prong in this case is not connected to anything, but the GFI can still protect you by sensing a current leak through you to another grounded surface. Hope that makes sense.

Dude, read what you just posted. When current goes through YOU to ground. Where is it going to?? The GFI does not know how the current is getting to ground. ie your tank, you, animals etc. But it IS going to ground. Thats how a GFI works. It detects an imbalance between the Hot and Neutral There is only 3 paths in your household system. Hot, Neutral and Ground. If current isnt flowing back on the N, then it MUST be going back through ground.
GFI's only trip on current leaking, or passing to Ground. Not the GI's ground plug, but ground anywhere. Ground is Ground, common point electrically throughout the house and, yup, you guessed it, the ground outside too

[cwatkins]

This thread just reminded me that the outlet I use for my water change tub (pump/heater) still needs a GFI. I'll pick one up before the next water change.

I was wavering because I wasn't sure if GFI protected devices needed the third ground wire. But since ground is ground, and I now know that leaking voltage can ground through you (as per above), then I'll for sure pick one up now!

[mike31154]

Dude, read what you just posted. When current goes through YOU to ground. Where is it going to?? The GFI does not know how the current is getting to ground. ie your tank, you, animals etc. But it IS going to ground. Thats how a GFI works. It detects an imbalance between the Hot and Neutral There is only 3 paths in your household system. Hot, Neutral and Ground. If current isnt flowing back on the N, then it MUST be going back through ground.
GFI's only trip on current leaking, or passing to Ground. Not the GI's ground plug, but ground anywhere. Ground is Ground, common point electrically throughout the house and, yup, you guessed it, the ground outside too

I know what I posted & I know ground is ground, a common reference. The point I'm trying to make is, the GFI will work to protect you from getting shocked without the GFI itself needing the ground prong built into it.