Cleaner Wrasse??

[dacookster]

What's the deal with these poor guys??? I just got one from a local lfs, quite large actually, only to read up that they are horrible to keep in a reef and will not last long. Judging by the size of this guy, he's made it a long time in captivity. He's almost 5" long. Anyways, annihilates any type of food I put in the system. I feed my tank only once a day. After reading some articles and watching some youtube videos, I'm freaking out thinking I've sentenced him to death. Any thoughts??

[jtbadco]

I'm afraid I may have done the same thing. I saw one is a friend reef and bought one for mine. He eats like crazy...I feed twice a day, but he keeps getting skinnier.

[BlueWorldAquatic]

They have been known to survive for quite some time. Unless they aren't eating, they should do ok. Don't let the body shape fool you.


A well balanced and mixed diet should do him fine

[dacookster]

Well here's hoping. He sure is a fun guy to watch.

[windcoast reefs]

Not to start anything here, but I've had my cleaner wrasse since November 2010. Im not the only one either, most ofvthe reefers in my area have kept them for long periods of time! He will eat anything from nori to pellets to frozen. But it really likes cyclopeze, that's what he started eating. I had people bash me from day one about buying one but he has become my favorite fish! Just make sure you give him small food several times a day and find what it likes, after that it's smooth sailing!

[badfish!]

I'm babysitting some fish and one of them was a cleaner wrasse, I was told he was a couple of years old.... Then I added a fuzzy dwarf lion fish (I figured that if the stonefish didnt eat the wrasse, a fuzzy should be fine...) My mistake :redface:. I have another cleaner in a different tank and he is a pig, eats anything and everything I put in there from mysis, nori, plankton and he even picks at the silversides I feed to my snowflake. And he is super entertaining to watch, especially when he tries to clean unwilling participants, he can be quite persistant.

However, I remember reading an article someone posted here about how detrimental it is to remove cleaner wrasses from natural reefs, I cant remember exactly the numbers, but the study showed that there were fewer fish and fewer varieties of fish in the areas that the wrasses were removed from. But like I said, cant remember who posted the article and where, and I'm sure quite a few of us on here have them anyways... I guess just dont put them in with lion fishes :redface:

[Mike-fish]

I have had mine 3+years now eats like a pig i think the trick to them is large system tons of live rock and a tang or two. he eats mysis, brine, cyclopizee even nori ( i think hes is anyway)

[naesco]

The chances of a cleaner wrasse surviving more than a week or two are almost nil.

Reefers who are lucky enough to have one survive for a longer time post though, giving the impression that is it is ok to buy them.

It is not ok to buy them. They should be left in the ocean doing the great job they do cleaning other fish that we buy that do survive.

[jtbadco]

Aren't we holier than tho?!?,.....like you aren't keeping fish in a glass box too.

By your standard they would all be better off left in the wild.

I don't disagree with your point but don't try to come off like you are so much better.

[naesco]

Aren't we holier than tho?!?,.....like you aren't keeping fish in a glass box too.

By your standard they would all be better off left in the wild.

I don't disagree with your point but don't try to come off like you are so much better.

Yes I keep coral and fish. I strive to ensure through reading stuff written by experts in our hobby and other reefers experience that the fish and coral has a reasonable chance of succcess in my tank.

If that makes my standard of care higher than yours I do not apologise.

If you are interested in reading about cleaner wrasse click below. The article is written by Robert Fenner an expert in our hobbby.
http://wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm

[jtbadco]

As expected completely missed the point,....

my point is that all the fish you have, regardless of how much research you did, would be better off in the wild. So you are no better than anyone else.

And like I said, I don't disagree with the point you are making so save your expert testimony.

[kole]

Watching one swim around my tank now. Entertaining little fish been in there over a year now. I had a pair in my last tank for several years. Always kept them with larger fish so they can display or attempt there natural cleaning habits.

[windcoast reefs]

Everybody has an opinion on these fish, but the article that you highlighted was published many years ago and are very outdated. Most of the references are from the 70s through early 90's. The shipping methods were slower, cyanide was still used for capturing them and people didn't understand what the needs of the fish are. That said all fish are better off in the ocean. Many fish have special requirement, like leopard wrasses, copperband butterfly's, dragonettes, even a number of tangs, but so many people buy them without complaints. I really don't like to see these fish in the pet shop and hate it when they sell them to new aquarists. But there really isn't anything I can do myself to help.

[Rogue951]

I've had a few in different tanks over the years and they've always done extremely well.
eat like pigs with no effort to train them to eat.
even pick at my arm when im doing stuff in the tank.
I'd say the real issue is taking them away from their cleaning duties in the wild and less so that they're hard to keep.

[daniella3d]

Mine is fat as can be. I have it for about 4 months now and he's grown a lot and he is getting fat. The thing is, I feed it live white worms and he loves thoses. I think that's what really keep him healthy and fat.

He's in top shape and eats anything. I feed it mysis which he has problem eating but eats some bits, I also feed it frozen cyclopeeze, caplan eggs (fish roe) and live white worms. With this diet he has grown quite a bit in a few months and has keep gaining weight.

I feed it twice per day. None of my fish need it because they don't have any parasite and don't accept being cleaned by it, but he's got enough good food it seems.


I'm afraid I may have done the same thing. I saw one is a friend reef and bought one for mine. He eats like crazy...I feed twice a day, but he keeps getting skinnier.

[daniella3d]

Absolutely not true. I don't know on what basis you say this, but either you tried one and failed so you think that one must be lucky to keep a cleaner wrasse alive, or you never tried so you don't even speak from experience.

I know plenty of people who have them for a long time. Mine is perfectly healthy and active and I don,t have any fish he can clean anyway. He simply eats good food like a little pig.

You are giving the wrong impresson that these fish are nearly impossible to keep, but it's simply not true. Same thing have been said from the copperband butterfly yet mine is fat and healthy and has been in my tank for a year and half now.


The chances of a cleaner wrasse surviving more than a week or two are almost nil.

Reefers who are lucky enough to have one survive for a longer time post though, giving the impression that is it is ok to buy them.

It is not ok to buy them. They should be left in the ocean doing the great job they do cleaning other fish that we buy that do survive.

[Reef Pilot]

Absolutely not true. I don't know on what basis you say this, but either you tried one and failed so you think that one must be lucky to keep a cleaner wrasse alive, or you never tried so you don't even speak from experience.
Naesco. This is the same guy that posts regularly to tell people not to keep Copperbands in captivity. When questioned if he ever had one personally, he admitted buying one when he first started out in the hobby and not knowing how to properly take care of it. Of course it died on him. So just because he was irresponsible, now he thinks no one should be keeping them.

Cleaner wrasse may indeed be difficult (or not) to keep in captivity. But it would be nice if we had a more constructive discussion about why they die early, and how to keep them successfully.

[Myka]

Naesco. This is the same guy that posts regularly to tell people not to keep Copperbands in captivity. When questioned if he ever had one personally, he admitted buying one when he first started out in the hobby and not knowing how to properly take care of it. Of course it died on him. So just because he was irresponsible, now he thinks no one should be keeping them.

I would have to go ahead and agree with Naesco, although sending the message a little more diplomatically would likely result in more positive responses.

Cleaner wrasse may indeed be difficult (or not) to keep in captivity. But it would be nice if we had a more constructive discussion about why they die early, and how to keep them successfully.

Cleaner Wrasse (and Copperband Butterflies, among many other fish) really are difficult to keep in captivity. Some people do have success even though most appear not to do anything extraordinary to keep these fish. A constructive discussion on how to keep these fish would be great...it's just too bad we don't yet know. ;)

Once upon a time, Green Mandarins used to be difficult to keep, and still are for those who don't take their requirements into consideration. We do now know what the requirements are, and likely we will eventually figure this out with many of the species that are currently difficult to keep.

Putting these "typically difficult to keep" fish in the hands of uneducated, inexperienced, or careless reefkeepers is really sad. When you've been around forums for a long time it gets tiring to read repetitive threads like, "What's wrong with my CBB?".

On the topic of cyanide, it is still used in many countries. CORAL Magazine just published an article highlighting a new Cyanide Test. Previously, the only tests available required sacrifice of the test fish, so this new test is groundbreaking.

Unlike other cyanide detection tests, the new methodology provides for rapid detection of cyanide by testing the water in which the animal is being held. The procedure outlined in the paper utilizes an optical fiber sensor capable of detecting trace levels of Thiocyanate anion in seawater.

Since nearly 80 percent of all cyanide entering an organism is converted to Thiocyanate anion and excreted in urine, this procedure allows for quick, non-invasive screening for cyanide by simply testing the holding water. Because saltwater fishes retain Thiocyanate anion for long periods subsequent to the initial cyanide poisoning, this cyanide detection method can be used successfully throughout the supply chain.

http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/new-cyanide-detection-test-game-changer

[mws]

As expected completely missed the point,....

my point is that all the fish you have, regardless of how much research you did, would be better off in the wild. So you are no better than anyone else.

And like I said, I don't disagree with the point you are making so save your expert testimony.

+1 ON THIS ONE.
Came back from snorkelling in Hawaii and must say, any size tank we have in our homes is still a bath tub.
I do feel very guilty every time I look at my fish, regardless of pristine maintenance of my tank. All the fish except the once we bred in captivity, are better off in a ocean.
Cleaner wrasse is not an exception, like any other fish. I had mine for over a year and he is fat and eats everything, but he doesn't clean fish anymore.

I had seeing thousands of different species of tangs in one spot what graze like cows, non stop.
My tangs don't touch rock anymore, waiting for there nori sheet twice a day.

Think one of those traveling zoos, where animals adapt and survive in 8X8 cages for years.

Suppliers will not stop catching cleaner wrasse if we stop buying them. They still will come to the stores and die there, like any other fish.
Think everyone - we have real survivors, but how many of those beauties never had a chance. Traveling in a bag for 24 hours(dying), sitting in a holding tanks somewhere(dying), our stores, stressed, sick (dying).
When I see very big and old fish in a store, my hart is truly aching, Why?

Forgive my not so perfect writing, you got the point.

[daniella3d]

Sure we do. Cleaner wrasse eat bits of fish mucous and any parasites they can find on those fish. There is a hint here, live food. Any small bits that they can eat is good. They can't swallow large food like mysis and they love cyclopeeze (frozen) which is close to their natural food. For both the copperband and the cleaner wrasse, having a live white worm culture is a lifesaver.

There was a girl in my area who could not get her copperband to eat anything and after 3 weeks she finally decided to buy a white worm culture. I shipped it by bus for her. 4 months later her copperband has gained weight and is eating his white worms each day. At the beginning it is often the only food they take after having decimated the feather duster population in the aquarium. After they get used to the white worms, they very often start on other food like mysis and fresh oyster or mussels cut in half. Doing a proper quarantine and getting them to eat is another big step. I did a month quarantine for both my copperband and cleaner wrasse and I was feeding them many times per day.

The cleaner wrasse really need small rich food to survive. cyclopeeze should be given each day and it should be fed at least twice a day. Looking how active this fish is, it is not surprising to think it must eat often. I feed mine live white worms morning and evening as well as cyclop 3 to 4 times per week and he also gets fish roe (caplan eggs) which he loves, each day.

They just need rich food as many times per day as we can. They don't eat a lot but often. Pump should be cut off to give it the best chance to catch the food and less need for spending energy swimming after it. I cut my pumps each time I feed so the cleaner really stay in one spot and swallow everything around, no need to go all over the place as they are not so agile to cath small bits of food going fast in the water.







Cleaner Wrasse (and Copperband Butterflies, among many other fish) really are difficult to keep in captivity. Some people do have success even though most appear not to do anything extraordinary to keep these fish. A constructive discussion on how to keep these fish would be great...it's just too bad we don't yet know. ;)

[Reef Pilot]

I would have to go ahead and agree with Naesco, although sending the message a little more diplomatically would likely result in more positive responses.

<snip>

Putting these "typically difficult to keep" fish in the hands of uneducated, inexperienced, or careless reefkeepers is really sad. When you've been around forums for a long time it gets tiring to read repetitive threads like, "What's wrong with my CBB?".


Unfortunately, with these forums, too many people like to just regurgitate popular or politically correct opinion, rather than provide constructive advice based on direct experience. Certainly CBB's and Cleaner Wrasse require more knowledge, care and attention than a Damsel or Angel. But that doesn't mean no one should ever keep these fish as Naesco advocates, and now Myka with her endorsement of Naesco.

In the case of CBB's, there is plenty of good information available about these fish, and how to set up a proper QT environment that suits the fish's behavior and feeding requirements. Both Daniella and myself (and others) have posted extensively about this.

I know far less about Cleaner Wrasse (but probably more than those that just say don't buy them), but would like to learn more. I would like to see more posts (like Daniella's) about how to do it successfully, and also what not to do. Personally, I am not ready to buy a Cleaner Wrasse (and don't know if I ever will), but I do appreciate hearing from those that have been successful, and those who have not (to try and find out why).

I am sure both Naesco and Myka mean well, but they would have a lot more credibility with me, if they advised caution and knowledge with these fish rather than just say "The chances of a cleaner wrasse surviving more than a week or two are almost nil". That statement is just not true.

Instead, I wish more of our "trusted experts" on this forum would advocate proper QT practices, that are appropriate to the specific fish (and coral). QT is not just about preventing disease, but also about acclimatizing and getting your fish strong and healthy before moving them to the display tank.

For me, it's more "tiring" to read over and over about newbies (and sometimes "experts", too) and how their fish are sick and dying because of ich and velvet (although often mistaken for ich). Saying to just just feed garlic instead of QT, is most irresponsible, IMO. And I am speaking from direct experience here, when I got burned initially by listening to the "experts" and going through the horrible ich in my display tank experience. Since then, I have gone QT (hypo only, no copper) with 100% success rates.

So hopefully, we can see more posts about what to do (and not to do) with keeping Cleaner Wrasse, and other other "difficult to keep" fish. There is no substitute for direct experience when it comes to knowledge.

[tim the toolman]

I was a newbie to salt when I got my cleaner wrasse and now about 2 years later it is still doing great.
That is all.

[jtbadco]

Thank you Reef Pilot,....exactly what I was thinking. Very well said.

[Reef Pilot]

Cleaner wrasse is not an exception, like any other fish. I had mine for over a year and he is fat and eats everything, but he doesn't clean fish anymore.

This is interesting. Have others found that their Cleaner Wrasse stop cleaning other fish after a year or two eating other foods?

[daniella3d]

yes that seem to be a common pattern from those that I know who have one for a long time.

This is interesting. Have others found that their Cleaner Wrasse stop cleaning other fish after a year or two eating other foods?

[Myka]

But that doesn't mean no one should ever keep these fish as Naesco advocates, and now Myka with her endorsement of Naesco.

Naesco is definitely rather more extremist than I am. I don't think that "no one should ever keep these fish", you haven't seen me say that exactly. I think newbies shouldn't keep these fish. Just as I think newbies shouldn't keep any other challenging species of fish. Newbies lack the knowledge to recognize problems while the problem is still young enough to reverse or treat. In a perfect world, it would be nice if newbies stuck to captive bred fish (well in a perfect world we would all stick to captive bred fish) where their mistakes would have less impact.

In the case of CBB's, there is plenty of good information available about these fish, and how to set up a proper QT environment that suits the fish's behavior and feeding requirements. Both Daniella and myself (and others) have posted extensively about this.CBBs and Cleaner Wrasses seem to be a lot like Mandarins where they have specific feeding requirements/habits, but in the case of CBBs I think it is more than that (cyanide maybe?). You read of many people that have had CBBs and Cleaner Wrasse for some time (6 months, a year?) then suddenly they quit eating, get pinched bellies, and die in just a few days. Fish don't die from not eating for a few days. Something else is going on. And no, the experts and scientists don't know yet.

Recently, it has been discovered there is some sort of Bangaii Cardinal virus (or such) that kills off wild caught Bangaii. Most people in the business will confirm often poor survival rates of wild caught Bangaii. Or some batches are good while other perish. They are eating one day, floating the next. One will die here and there until none are left. There is a research group right now that just got together and are working to solve this problem and research the Bangaii in general. They are working on people's donations. Go here to donate: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/603466482/the-banggai-rescue-project

My point is, even though people have been keeping and even breeding Bangaii Cardinals for many years there has been this virus that no one knew about mysteriously killing off so many Bangaii Cardinals that the average hobbyist has likely been completely ignorant of. Maybe such things exist with other "difficult to keep" species?

You see, I'm not so quick to support people attempting to keep difficult species simply because their requirements are mostly a mystery right now. I can't support hundreds of people trying in hopes that someone will find the answers. I would rather donate (like I have) to research projects where experts can figure this out, and publish works that we can all learn from.

I know far less about Cleaner Wrasse (but probably more than those that just say don't buy them)That's just a silly assumption. :neutral:

I am sure both Naesco and Myka mean well, but they would have a lot more credibility with me, if they advised caution and knowledge with these fish rather than just say "The chances of a cleaner wrasse surviving more than a week or two are almost nil". That statement is just not true.

Instead, I wish more of our "trusted experts" on this forum would advocate proper QT practices, that are appropriate to the specific fish (and coral).I agree that statement isn't true. I'm not looking for credibility from you, I don't even know you. I haven't been posting much lately, but in the last 6 months I've mentioned the word "quarantine" in 15 different threads. I'm actually working on a quarantine article right now.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80937
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82222
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80410

For me, it's more "tiring" to read over and over about newbies (and sometimes "experts", too) and how their fish are sick and dying because of ich and velvet (although often mistaken for ich). Saying to just just feed garlic instead of QT, is most irresponsible, IMO.Agreed.

[Myka]

Daniella, you talk about white worms a lot, have you ever tried black worms (not Tubifex) with your CBB or Cleaner?

This is interesting. Have others found that their Cleaner Wrasse stop cleaning other fish after a year or two eating other foods?

Yeah, that seems to be typical of the Cleaners I know.

[Mike-fish]

well i think we all saw this debate coming. mine 3+ years in and going strong still cleans my powder blue almost daily great fun to watch as they chase one another around the tank. and he was one of my first fish the day after the very first 5 went in the tank. tank had been "cycling" for about a year then

[reefwars]

id put $100 say no one on this forumn has one over 5 yrs old.....


ive had many including an adult i had for 2 1/2 yrs old, it ate fine was the most active fish in my tank.

it also didnt clean fish, never really did, cleaned my hand though all the time:P

most died for no apparent reason , didnt look sick or skinny, wasnt getting chased bullied or stressed...

ive been reefing for awhile and in a few different provinces and i dont think i know of anyone who has one older than 5yrs:)

im not against getting another as they are nice fish and its not impossible to keep them short term but i will wait a while to see what the hobby comes up with for them.....

after all patience is what its all about:)

[Reef Pilot]

I agree that statement isn't true. I'm not looking for credibility from you, I don't even know you. I haven't been posting much lately, but in the last 6 months I've mentioned the word "quarantine" in 15 different threads. I'm actually working on a quarantine article right now.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80937
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82222
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80410

Agreed.
Myka, you're contradicting yourself. Here, you agree with me that Naesco's statement isn't true. But earlier you said "I would have to go ahead and agree with Naesco". Which is it? That's what I mean about credibility. And no, you don't know about me either, that is obvious. But I have to chuckle when I read one of my own posts in the threads you have just referenced here.

I have read a lot of your posts and articles, Myka (hard not to, you are a very prolific writer). But with all due respect, you sound more like a reporter than someone advising based on their own direct experience. I know you are a long time reefer, so don't get me wrong. But I haven't seen a lot of new or unique information coming from you that I haven't seen before on other forums or by googling. I may be wrong (hope I am actually), and feel free to correct me.

By contrast, I have found that Daniella has a tremendous amount of unique and useful experiences, and I have learned to really appreciate and trust her contributions. I have seen pics of her tanks, too, so she definitely knows what she is talking about. I actually had a rocky introduction on this forum with her when she very unkindly admonished me for trying to keep two Copperbands in one tank. But she was right (had to sell one).

Myka, I know you write articles for magazines. Ever thought of profiling someone (like Daniella maybe) that could provide some new and unique insight to reef keeping. Your writing skills and her experience could be a dynamite combination. Just a thought.

Having said all that, you and I probably don't differ much, if any, on our views about QT. I just wish you would better separate yourself from "elitists" like Naesco who puts more merit on 1970's articles than current reefers' direct experiences.

[Myka]

Myka, you're contradicting yourself. Here, you agree with me that Naesco's statement isn't true. But earlier you said "I would have to go ahead and agree with Naesco". Which is it?

Yeah, see Naesco is an extremist, as is Daniella. They both get a lot of flack for their "elitist" posts. I don't think that either one of them are arrogant, they are simply right to the point. They have a lot of merit in their posts, and I like to stick up for them because I think people can learn a lot from them.

I agree with Naesco that all our fish are better off in the ocean than in our tanks...sorry, I did not read all of his posts before I said I agreed with him. I should have quoted what I agreed with. I have already clarified my thoughts about keeping difficult species.

I have read a lot of your posts and articles, Myka (hard not to, you are a very prolific writer). But with all due respect, you sound more like a reporter than someone advising based on their own direct experience. I know you are a long time reefer, so don't get me wrong. But I haven't seen a lot of new or unique information coming from you that I haven't seen before on other forums or by googling. I may be wrong (hope I am actually), and feel free to correct me.Thanks for your review (I appreciated these). I will keep in this mind in future writing. It is a style I have adopted as a method to try to keep inappropriate emotion out of my writing and come across neutral (as I've been called an elitist too), but maybe it doesn't read the best? I find forum discussion can often be misinterpreted, so I try to be neutral, but maybe I'm over doing it.

Myka, I know you write articles for magazines. Ever thought of profiling someone (like Daniella maybe) that could provide some new and unique insight to reef keeping. Your writing skills and her experience could be a dynamite combination. Just a thought.So far, I have only written one article, although I have been asked to write more since. I'm not sure that profiling would be appropriate for what I have been asked to do. On the other hand, I thought you didn't like my writing skills? :p

Having said all that, you and I probably don't differ much, if any, on our views about QT. I just wish you would better separate yourself from "elitists" like Naesco who puts more merit on 1970's articles than current reefers' direct experiences.I don't know if you are exaggerating when you say 1970's as I don't usually click any references people post unless something is unusual. However, reefers direct experiences are always very relative, and usually quite opinionated. Most people aren't quick to advertise their failures (although one reefer's exclamation that he tried 7 different CBBs before giving up comes to mind). Call me leery, but I try to take people's experiences with a skeptical eye, and try to weave those ideas into my own experiences.

[Reef Pilot]

Thanks for your review (I appreciated these). I will keep in this mind in future writing. It is a style I have adopted as a method to try to keep inappropriate emotion out of my writing and come across neutral (as I've been called an elitist too), but maybe it doesn't read the best? I find forum discussion can often be misinterpreted, so I try to be neutral, but maybe I'm over doing it.

So far, I have only written one article, although I have been asked to write more since. I'm not sure that profiling would be appropriate for what I have been asked to do. On the other hand, I thought you didn't like my writing skills? :p


Myka, I think your writing skills are good. I just don't know where you stand sometimes. You need to think more about what audience you are addressing. Is it the newbies, avg SW aquarist, or the advanced reef keeper? You label both Naesco and Daniella as "extremists" and "elitists". I see them quite differently.

Naesco seems to be stuck in conventional wisdom. And yes, he indeed linked to a Cleaner Wrasse article that used references from the 70's to the 90's. I don't think he is extreme, just very old school and unwilling to learn anything new. He tries to be elitist, but comes across as being more pompous.

Daniella, on the other hand, I would call an advanced reef keeper. When I suggested to profile her, I meant her techniques, and how she has been successful. She is definitely unconventional. Whether it is white worms, vitamin C, the many chemicals and parasite remedies, difficult fish and coral, or Kent carbon issues, she definitely brings up stuff that I have not read or heard about elsewhere. And she seems to know her stuff, too. But I only see bits and pieces when she chimes in on a thread to help someone. I would bet she has a lot more knowledge and experience to share, and a good writer could make it very interesting and valuable, I'm sure.

I wouldn't call Daniella an elitist either, as she often starts a thread asking about something (often an advanced topic though), so it shows that she is always learning and open minded. The only knock against her, might be that she comes across sometimes as not being very tactful. I initially thought that too, with my early Copperband encounter. But I think she is a lot better at that lately, even with her direct approach.

So, I still say your writing skills profiling Daniella and her reef keeping experiences would make for a very interesting and valuable read.

[daniella3d]

I cannot get access to black worms, so no I did not try them. I have no idea if my fish would like them but I guess yes.

I enrich my white worms with Selcon, so they have a good nutritive value.

Daniella, you talk about white worms a lot, have you ever tried black worms (not Tubifex) with your CBB or Cleaner?



Yeah, that seems to be typical of the Cleaners I know.

[mws]

[QUOTE

I enrich my white worms with Selcon, so they have a good nutritive value.[/QUOTE]

I do the same thing.But mine would only eat the worms what are very small.

Also helped my wrasse on a beginning, when I just got him, was the group of green chromis I had at the time. They laid eggs non stop and it was a treat for him to go and eat the eggs. I sometime would stand with the net and hold chromis male(guarding) back, while my c. wrasse would get full.

[daniella3d]

If he does like to eat eggs, try fish roe (masago) or caplan eggs. This is the little orange eggs found on sushi. I give it each day to mine and he really loves that stuff.

I buy the Clearwater brand and it is seasoned but none of my fish, anemone or corals seem to mind the seasoning :)

I could not find a brand of these that was not colored and seasoned, but I have been feeding this to my fish and corals for 2 years now with great results. I feed it often to my ricordeas and they love it too...they just take like 30 to 40 minutes to swallow anything so cutting the pump for that long is a must when I feed them.

My cleaner wrasse is now quite big so he can eat larger worms but I always keep my cultures (3 cultures) running and well fed so there is always plenty of smaller babies in there and he does prefer the smaller ones.

[QUOTE

I enrich my white worms with Selcon, so they have a good nutritive value.

I do the same thing.But mine would only eat the worms what are very small.

Also helped my wrasse on a beginning, when I just got him, was the group of green chromis I had at the time. They laid eggs non stop and it was a treat for him to go and eat the eggs. I sometime would stand with the net and hold chromis male(guarding) back, while my c. wrasse would get full.[/quote]

[Myka]

Myka, I think your writing skills are good. I just don't know where you stand sometimes. You need to think more about what audience you are addressing. Is it the newbies, avg SW aquarist, or the advanced reef keeper?

I address newbies and average SW aquarists. It depends what you class as an advanced reefkeeper though? I really think advanced reefkeepers take their advice from the experts in the field, many of who have letters after their names. ;) I don't put myself in that class, so I don't try to address advanced reefkeepers. I also think I have to prove myself to the average crowd before I could ever get any recognition with the advanced crowd. Know what I mean?

Naesco seems to be stuck in conventional wisdom. And yes, he indeed linked to a Cleaner Wrasse article that used references from the 70's to the 90's.There's nothing entirely wrong with that as often there is nothing new in the hobby to reference. Some of the best in the field did their best work in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Take Martin Moe for example, he was breeding fish in the 70s and 80s that most people can't breed today. People are still looking back to his works to try to figure it all out. Although I get your point.

I wouldn't call Daniella an elitist either[...]The only knock against her, might be that she comes across sometimes as not being very tactful.That's what I mean, Daniella comes across as an elitist, but I don't think she is arrogant at all. She ruffles lots of feathers around here, although I agree with you, she knows a lot of stuff. "Extremist" is really just another way of saying "perfectionist" in the case of Daniella, she puts a lot more effort into her reefkeeping than the average hobbyist.

I just looked up the meaning of elitist, as I thought one of us must have a misunderstanding of the word. "A person considered superior by others or by themselves; as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society." By the dictionary meaning though, you could class both as elitist as you think Daniella is elite, and you think Naesco thinks he is elite. :lol: My understanding was simply that I thought elitism was someone who thought they were elite, regardless of their actual knowledge. I actually didn't call either of them elitist, I said they make elitist posts. I enjoy both Daniellas and Naesco's posts.

Hmm...not sure how we got from Cleaner Wrasses to Naesco and Daniella.

[Reef Pilot]

I just looked up the meaning of elitist, as I thought one of us must have a misunderstanding of the word. "A person considered superior by others or by themselves; as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society." By the dictionary meaning though, you could class both as elitist as you think Daniella is elite, and you think Naesco thinks he is elite. :lol: My understanding was simply that I thought elitism was someone who thought they were elite, regardless of their actual knowledge. I actually didn't call either of them elitist, I said they make elitist posts. I enjoy both Daniellas and Naesco's posts.

Hmm...not sure how we got from Cleaner Wrasses to Naesco and Daniella.
OK..., since we are now down to hair splitting, I guess we have beat this topic long enough....:smile:

[naesco]

Removed

[jtbadco]

Wow, guys......ease up. We're all supposed to be adults here.

[Myka]

I cannot get access to black worms, so no I did not try them. I have no idea if my fish would like them but I guess yes.

I enrich my white worms with Selcon, so they have a good nutritive value.

Do you have Petland there? That's where I get Blackworms. They are $20 for a "small" bag that I can't use up in 3 weeks (15 fish eating 3 meals a day), which is as long as I've been able to get them to last. My Mandarin is the only fish that won't eat them, but he eats frozen food.

[daniella3d]

No unfortunatly no Petland around here. I tried to find some often but never managed and no one carry them around here. I could have them mail ordered but that's too expensive.

Strange that the mandarin won't eat them. Both of my green mandarins will gobble white worms like popcorn.

Did your mandarin ever tasted the black worms? Or he simply do not consider this as food and never ever tried? I am curious to see if he really dislike them or it's just that he never bothered to try it?




Do you have Petland there? That's where I get Blackworms. They are $20 for a "small" bag that I can't use up in 3 weeks (15 fish eating 3 meals a day), which is as long as I've been able to get them to last. My Mandarin is the only fish that won't eat them, but he eats frozen food.

[Myka]

Strange that the mandarin won't eat them. Both of my green mandarins will gobble white worms like popcorn.

Did your mandarin ever tasted the black worms? Or he simply do not consider this as food and never ever tried? I am curious to see if he really dislike them or it's just that he never bothered to try it?

He tried them. He tries anything I put in his feeding dish. I should skip feeding for a day and then try feeding them to him. He's quite the pig.

[naesco]

You show your arrogance in attacking Myka. She provides lasting information to new reefers which info is permanently posted on this board. She freely offers advice in her many postings.
She is writing to help new reefers not to earn the Pulitzer Prize in Literature. Your attack is hurtful and completely uncalled for and I request that you apologise to her.

You show your ignorance by suggesting that Robert Fenner who posts on Wetwebmedia.com
and by implication other experts like Scott Michael represent dated thinking.
These fellow hobbyists who have PHds, and are accommoplished and acnowledged experts in our hobby, provide current information from on going study and ongoing lectures to fellow hobbyists like us.

If guys like these are not the experts, than who? YOU!!! lol

From time to time guys of your ilk hit the board. They ignore the advice of experts. attack fellow posters personally, and encourage fellow reefers to push things to the limit with the resultant fish and coral carnage.
Thankfully guys like you come and go because ultimately their tanks turn to a bio mass of algae and gunk and they leave the hobby.

[reefwars]

You show your ignorance by suggesting that Robert Fenner who posts on Wetwebmedia.com
and by implication other experts like Scott Michael represent dated thinking.
These fellow hobbyists who have PHds, and are accommoplished and acnowledged experts in our hobby, provide current information from on going study and ongoing lectures to fellow hobbyists like us.

If guys like these are not the experts, than who? YOU!!! lol





these guys are still the best in the field today, alot of these guys can be found posting reguarily on us sites :)

[Reef Pilot]

From time to time guys of your ilk hit the board. They ignore the advice of experts. attack fellow posters personally, and encourage fellow reefers to push things to the limit with the resultant fish and coral carnage.
Thankfully guys like you come and go because ultimately their tanks turn to a bio mass of algae and gunk and they leave the hobby.

Well, looks like I got your attention, Naesco. That's good. My problem with you is that you like to do these hit and runs with false or misleading information. In this case, you said, "The chances of a cleaner wrasse surviving more than a week or two are almost nil". You ignore other posters that have recent success stories with these fish, and gave some good advice on increasing the chances of being successful. You did the same to me on a past thread about Copperband Butterflies, when I spoke about my success, as did others. When I questioned your experience, it was more than 20 years ago, and you even admitted that you just plopped it into a display tank without QT, and tried to feed it flake food. Needless to say, that Copperband didn't have a chance.

In this case, the OP had already heard that Cleaner Wrasse may be a difficult fish to keep in captivity, and was looking for other peoples thoughts. A number of people posted to provide helpful hints that might increase his chances of success. I don't think your first post with the above statement is what the OP was looking for. If you had just given the links as in your 2nd post, and perhaps offered some suggestions, that might have been taken more positively.

As for Myka, I hope I didn't offend her, and for sure, I apologize if she was. Most of our discussion focused on the contrast between you and Daniella, who has a lot of direct experience with keeping difficult fish and corals. Instead of just slapping people (which she can do, too), she is continuously offering good advice (often new and unique), and trying to be helpful. You could take some lessons from her, and probably learn a lot too, about some of these difficult fish.

Just trying to give you some advice here, Naesco, to perhaps improve your image and credibility, so that your point isn't always lost because of how you post and put people off. Blatant, over the top statements like the one above do not help your cause at all.

As for me, I have my own soapbox I get up on from time to time. I try not to overdo it, as I know I will just be ignored then. And that is QT. I think we have more "carnage" in this hobby because of Ich and other diseases, than just "difficult fish" dying. I also get a little upset when I hear some people on this forum advocate against QT, and "just feed garlic". Then I read about the disasters every couple months in people's tanks.

So if we do have anything in common, Naesco, it is to try and promote responsible behavior with reef keeping. That includes sharing knowledge and trying to help others through their challenges. I know you have been in the hobby a long time, so am sure you have lots to contribute as well.

[naesco]

Thank you for your comments

[Reef Pilot]

Thank you for your comments
You're welcome, and hope there are no hard feelings, or at least they will soon be forgotten.

[jtbadco]

:popcorn:

[Myka]

Good job settling it out guys. :)

[burgerchow]

you guys are funny.

In defense of Nesco, I've never met a reefer with such passion for fish and corals. He even went to Indonesia himself to hand-pick 200 lbs of live rock and shipped them back here. ( i know, cause I bought all the rock from him 3 years ago when he had to shut down his display because of a move)

We are all still learning, there's always new things and procedures popping up. In the old days, we kept sw fish with just airstone skimmers and wet/dry filters. ( that still works LOL ) but new tech and techniques are helping change this hobby by leaps and bounds. Heck, 20 years ago, we never even heard of chalices, and other deep water corals.

Heck, I just learned how to post pics ( not very well mind you)

[Aquattro]

Good job settling it out guys. :)

That was a pleasant surprise. Thanks guys!

[fishytime]

I would like to know the percentage of people that have successfully kept these fish......its already been said that only the people that have been successful with these fish post in threads like this, which unfortunately give the wrong impression to the many people that read the thread......personally Ive killed two cleaner wrasses and wont try another.....there are some fish IMHO that really should either be left in the ocean or at the very least be a "special order only" fish, brought in for people who know what they are doing.....the reality is people on forums like this make up a small percentage of the total number of people who have a saltwater tank and I would be willing to bet that less than ten percent of these fish live longer then a year.....

[daniella3d]

Actually there are 2 types of posts in these forums....those who post and had succes and thus give the impression that this fish is easy to keep...

AND...those who tried and failed and post in these forums and give the impression or say so, that these fish are impossible to keep.

So who really give the false impression? I guess everybody does because some cleaner wrasse are extremely easy to keep, and some won't make it no matter what.

As for me, I know quite many people who have success with it...we must be really lucky. It's also so cheap to buy at the pet store...that does not help.



I would like to know the percentage of people that have successfully kept these fish......its already been said that only the people that have been successful with these fish post in threads like this, which unfortunately give the wrong impression to the many people that read the thread......personally Ive killed two cleaner wrasses and wont try another.....there are some fish IMHO that really should either be left in the ocean or at the very least be a "special order only" fish, brought in for people who know what they are doing.....the reality is people on forums like this make up a small percentage of the total number of people who have a saltwater tank and I would be willing to bet that less than ten percent of these fish live longer then a year.....

[sunoka]

I have one in each of my 2 tanks. The cleaner in the 25 gal is 3 years old to me don`t know how old it was before we bought it but was just new to the store still in QT when my wife put it on hold. And the other is a little over a year in the 77 gal. tank. These are not a easy fish to keep! I was lucky to convert both to frozen food with a bit of work but both fish started with beef heart and now are on fish food home made and bought they even eat flake food.

I do not recommend this fish to anybody that has not done alot of research and are dedicated to the work involved to introducing this type of fish to there tank. I lost one because he was in the store for 2 weeks before I bought it so that was the first lesson he was gone with in 2 days of purchase.

[dacookster]

Well, it's taken me about an hour to read and decipher all of these posts. I'm not 100% sure on what feelings and opinion I walk away with here. I guess in the general reefing community I am a noob, only 1.5 years in, and yes, I was lured to this fish by a large chain fish store like many others. It's great to see such passion and involvement of members in these communities, but at the same time I find it quite striking that a moral debate would ensue about keeping this fish, or any for that matter. There's some great advice here and i will do whats best in my ability to keep all my "pets" alive. I became a reefer because for some reason I can sit and watch my tank in wonder for hours. I can't explain it. Fascination maybe, of both nature and mankind's ability to nurture nature in a controlled environment. Cool, but I had a dog once, who ate very well, was well groomed and loved. He died of cancer long before his time. How is reefing any different than owning a dog. You raise it, care for it because it provides some peace and enjoyment in your life, but in the end, we're not masters of this universe. Thank you to all who posted feeding and care guidelines that have worked for you. I will be glad to try anything to keep my little guy happy and healthy. I sure hope I didn't start WWIII amongst some of you. I respect you all for taking the time to address my issue. I actually don't feel bad anymore, just more driven to have happy healthy fish!

[sunoka]

Well, it's taken me about an hour to read and decipher all of these posts. I'm not 100% sure on what feelings and opinion I walk away with here. I guess in the general reefing community I am a noob, only 1.5 years in, and yes, I was lured to this fish by a large chain fish store like many others. It's great to see such passion and involvement of members in these communities, but at the same time I find it quite striking that a moral debate would ensue about keeping this fish, or any for that matter. There's some great advice here and i will do whats best in my ability to keep all my "pets" alive. I became a reefer because for some reason I can sit and watch my tank in wonder for hours. I can't explain it. Fascination maybe, of both nature and mankind's ability to nurture nature in a controlled environment. Cool, but I had a dog once, who ate very well, was well groomed and loved. He died of cancer long before his time. How is reefing any different than owning a dog. You raise it, care for it because it provides some peace and enjoyment in your life, but in the end, we're not masters of this universe. Thank you to all who posted feeding and care guidelines that have worked for you. I will be glad to try anything to keep my little guy happy and healthy. I sure hope I didn't start WWIII amongst some of you. I respect you all for taking the time to address my issue. I actually don't feel bad anymore, just more driven to have happy healthy fish!

ATTA boy...I found my info out side of canreef as well as what was offer here. It`s not as bomb and glomb as some say. I have to feed my cleaners twice a day because I have other fish that pick at the rocks all day as well as the cleaner.
As you have red in these forms there is success with these fish just as I say get a new fish to the store not one that maybe starving because the LFS has cheaper budget for food than you will have and time which they sometimes don`t have the time to for each fish. Time and patients is key.
Try beef heart minced with garlic to start and then introduce frozen. This worked for both my cleaners. Good luck it can be done