LED Intensity

[Aquattro]

A question came up in a different thread, asking why almost everyone runs their LEDs at less than 100%, often much less. Why is that?

Does it not make sense, mathematically, that if I run 4 lights at 50%, I can get the same results with 2 lights at 100% ? Sure, coverage is a different, but lets say 3 lights, higher up but brighter, doesn't that do more than 4 lights at 60%??

So what do you run your LEDs at, and why?

[Nano]

I have my AI Sol, running at about 35% over my cube, I find anything higher is too bright, and ticks off the coral. From what I am seeing online and first hand, LEDs are right up there with MH in terms of brightness, but are not as prone to browning out corals.
I think that if you dont mind minor dark areas, you can definitely run them higher hang them higher and get the same results, also as we know many leds have options on optics that you can choose from, I believe AI has 70 or 90 degree, I cant remember which, but with a wider lens I see no reason that you couldnt run less lights at higher intensity. after all, to me 4 sols on a 4' tank seems like a waste, 2-3 would be more then adequate. provided they are suspended just right. It may limit what you can keep on the sand bed once you get to a certain height, as we know light gets less intense the deeper it has to penetrate, but for me, my softies on the sand bed and sps high, lps low to middle, it seems to be perfect! thats just my opinion though:lol:

[Reef Pilot]

When I first installed my Radions, I started them at 30%, and they were still brighter than my old T5's. I then raised it to 40%, but noticed that my corals were shrinking a bit, so I dialed them back to 30%. Since I don't have any SPS (only softies and LPS), I thought I would go even lower and see how they do. I am currently running them at 20%, and corals are doing better than ever now. Seems like my softies just don't like bright light.

I have a 6ft tank, 18" deep, with 3 Radions 8" above the water. I use the natural mode setting, so it gradually ramps up and peaks at mid day, and then down again to dusk. Then a low blue for moonlight thru most (totally off for about 3 hours) of the night.

[justincgdick]

From a mathematical perspective, you will have more uniform par if the lights are higher up, assuming you have lights strong enough. There will be a drastic difference between par at the surface and at the sand bed if the lights are in the rim. If you can raise the light up a few feet the difference in par will be less.

[WindowMaker]

there is also the factor that constantly running an LED at 100% will cut its lifespan almost in half.

[StirCrazy]

Does it not make sense, mathematically, that if I run 4 lights at 50%, I can get the same results with 2 lights at 100% ? Sure, coverage is a different, but lets say 3 lights, higher up but brighter, doesn't that do more than 4 lights at 60%??


if you get the hights proper so PAR is the same yes you can do the same if not better with two as you will have better color blending and such. you will still get good life off the LEDs as they are rated to be run at there max power, and if you can keep them cool that will not be an issue anyways.

the issue you will have is less ability to customize colors as you already are at 100%, you will have more light spillage, and you will have a stupid fixture hanging 4 feet above the tank.

Steve

[Aquattro]

there is also the factor that constantly running an LED at 100% will cut its lifespan almost in half.

That makes sense, but when the industry is stating X number of years worth of life, at what intensity are they rating them?

[Aquattro]

the issue you will have is less ability to customize colors as you already are at 100%, you will have more light spillage, and you will have a stupid fixture hanging 4 feet above the tank.

Steve

That makes sense for color blending. I'm thinking run white at 100% then tweak the blue. Not actually having one makes for lots of guessing and assumptions :)
not thinking 4' off the tank, but maybe 14" or so.

[troni]

there is also the factor that constantly running an LED at 100% will cut its lifespan almost in half.

its lifespan is determined by running at 100%.
what i think you mean running them at a lower percent will increase life.



I'm curious as how long till the spectrum starts to change, if at all.

[Nano]

I'm curious as how long till the spectrum starts to change, if at all.

I "Heard" once 5% per year at 100% but I am sure that not accurate, and could be more. also depending on the types of features you use (I.E) thunderstorms etc, it could cause varied results IMO.

[jorjef]

The way I approached buying my SOL's was sort of trial basis. I only ordered one the first time, I was 90% certain I would need a second with a 48" tank but with shipping being free for one or two I decided to see what one unit looked like. It took about five minutes to decide one was not enough and ordered the second. This same principal will work for anyone even if you had to start with say 3 or 4 and add units if needed.

[Aquattro]

The way I approached buying my SOL's was sort of trial basis. I only ordered one the first time, I was 90% certain I would need a second with a 48" tank but with shipping being free for one or two I decided to see what one unit looked like. It took about five minutes to decide one was not enough and ordered the second. This same principal will work for anyone even if you had to start with say 3 or 4 and add units if needed.

kinda my plan as well. I"ll start with 3 and see how that goes. Problem I have is that the tank may suffer before I can afford to buy more.:razz:

[muck]

Ask sbux for a V.I.P. discount card... :lol:

[RuGlu6]

Just wondering what is the difference between one 3w LED and the other?
Other then dimming and fancy controls what is the difference between AI sols and these
http://www.aquatraders.com/EVO-48-LED-Reef-Bright-p/56234.htm
?
They have single fixtures 5" (http://www.aquatraders.com/EVO-48-LED-Reef-Bright-p/56234.htm)wide and double fixtures 9.25" wide (http://www.aquatraders.com/EVO-Quad-48-LED-Reef-Bright-p/56237.htm). If everyone is running their "fancy" LED's at 35%-50% anyway?
Really want to know what is the difference. thx

[jorjef]

kinda my plan as well. I"ll start with 3 and see how that goes. Problem I have is that the tank may suffer before I can afford to buy more.:razz:

Just leave your existing lights in place, when the new ones arrive just get a bunch of people together to do a mock up and hold the lights over the tank for you as you sit back say "okay a little to the left, now up..no no the other up, you know down" All the time adjusting intensity to see how you like it. If you decide you need more units the original light is still there until the other unit arrives and swap out then. :biggrin:

[Aquattro]

Ask sbux for a V.I.P. discount card... :lol:

shut.up!

[Aquattro]

Just leave your existing lights in place, when the new ones arrive just get a bunch of people together to do a mock up and hold the lights over the tank for you as you sit back say "okay a little to the left, now up..no no the other up, you know down" All the time adjusting intensity to see how you like it. If you decide you need more units the original light is still there until the other unit arrives and swap out then. :biggrin:

Oh, absolutely. I currently have a canopy that can just lift off. It will go to the side until I'm sure the new lights can maintain color. If not, they go back on until I can buy more units.

But I'll try to run closer to 80%+ on the whites to try and keep intensity while raising high enough to keep coverage.

[DanG]

My lights are hung under my canopy pretty much sitting on the tank brace, so mine are pretty close to the surface, which makes them super bright. This in turn has caused me to have the whites about 40% and the blues close to 90.

If I had a way to have them up higher, I'd probably run them higher just to get the same level of brightness.

[troni]

Holy look like night time in there? What's your white to blue ratio?

[StirCrazy]

I'm curious as how long till the spectrum starts to change, if at all.

the spectrum doesn't change on LED's only there intensity. and at there rated live they are usaly still at 85% of there new intensity. of course different brands/models will have different numbers.

as for the life span, running them at 50% or 100% will make no difference on life span if the junction temp is the same, so in other words if you can keep them below there max junction temp even at 100% the life will be longer. this is why it is very important to think out your cooling (heatsink/fan) setup when building your own LEDs. If you buying them you would assume the company did there home work to be able to allow them to be run at 100% while keeping the junction temp under the max.

Steve

[Nano]

Just wondering what is the difference between one 3w LED and the other?
Other then dimming and fancy controls what is the difference between AI sols and these
http://www.aquatraders.com/EVO-48-LED-Reef-Bright-p/56234.htm
?
They have single fixtures 5" (http://www.aquatraders.com/EVO-48-LED-Reef-Bright-p/56234.htm)wide and double fixtures 9.25" wide (http://www.aquatraders.com/EVO-Quad-48-LED-Reef-Bright-p/56237.htm). If everyone is running their "fancy" LED's at 35%-50% anyway?
Really want to know what is the difference. thx

You get what you pay for, with anything, AI has a proven track record as well as radions, sure the evo may have 3w LEDs but what do we actually know of the quality of the lights, etc. having features like dimming or sun rise sun set etc, is very ideal and healthy for the tank stimulating all aspects of a day/night cycle, something you can't do with out a controller. Honestly, and please dont take this the wrong way, but I have seen a couple of threads from you in regards to Evo Leds, and I just want to say that if you are considering jumping into LEDs that you make the right choice the first time, so as not to waste money (potentially) I would personally go with a light that has testimonial from people you are familiar with to back it up. it looks like it would be more suited for planted/refugiums or little frag tanks if anything, but for a main display tank I would put your money to good use on a good light :) just my opinion though :wink:

[windcoast reefs]

its lifespan is determined by running at 100%.
what i think you mean running them at a lower percent will increase life.



I'm curious as how long till the spectrum starts to change, if at all.

As far as ive heard, there isn't any spectrum change. I called up Cree and talked to a tech about it before I built my unit and he said as long as you don't over heat them, the spectrum will stay the same. Basically the shortened down explanation of what he said was that the compound that is used to give an led there specific spectrum is stable as long as it isn't over heated. So if you burn your leds to hot they can have a spectrum change because of the compound breaking down into something else Like the zinc based compound used in blue breaks down into something that makes it kinda purple when it gets really hot.

They aren't really line halides or t5 which actually burn a compound to create the spectrum.

Just what I've heard anyways!

[Aquattro]

Intensity guys, this thread is about intensity :)

[StirCrazy]

Just wondering what is the difference between one 3w LED and the other?
Other then dimming and fancy controls what is the difference between AI sols and these
http://www.aquatraders.com/EVO-48-LED-Reef-Bright-p/56234.htm
?
They have single fixtures 5" (http://www.aquatraders.com/EVO-48-LED-Reef-Bright-p/56234.htm)wide and double fixtures 9.25" wide (http://www.aquatraders.com/EVO-Quad-48-LED-Reef-Bright-p/56237.htm). If everyone is running their "fancy" LED's at 35%-50% anyway?
Really want to know what is the difference. thx

for one they don't say what kind of LEDs there using, if they are using Cree (or another good brand) then no difference, if they are using some of the cheep ones that use a coating to get the color then the coating will break down eventually and these ones will give you a spectrum shift. there has even been reports of the coating pealing off in places. so it basically comes down to how the LED is made. you get the expensive high quality that use the actually metal of the diode to give off the color you want and you get the cheep and sometimes expensive ones that use a cheep metal to give a blueish color and then coat the dome with colored phosphorus to tune the color to what they want.

Also you want to check into the power supply and if it can be controlled. there are cheaper power supplies that are not regulated as much so this can lead to early failure, and controllability adds cost (although not much)

and finally what is there heat sink and how is the temp managed, you can get systems that use a aluminum heat sink that is enough on there own then add fans as a back up, and you can get systems that if the fans fail your system will be cooked. allot of the companies now are using a heat sink material as the circuit board and mounting the bare LEDs directly to it. nothing wrong with this as long as it is rated for proper thermal dissipation, some companies will do this but use the cheapest material they can find then over size fans. So you really have to looking to the construction and parts used in the system.

Steve

[jorjef]

:lalala:

[Aquattro]

for one they don't say what kind of LEDs there using, if they are using Cree (or another good brand) then no difference, if they are using some of the cheep ones that use a coating to get the color then the coating will break down eventually and these ones will give you a spectrum shift. there has even been reports of the coating pealing off in places. so it basically comes down to how the LED is made. you get the expensive high quality that use the actually metal of the diode to give off the color you want and you get the cheep and sometimes expensive ones that use a cheep metal to give a blueish color and then coat the dome with colored phosphorus to tune the color to what they want.

Also you want to check into the power supply and if it can be controlled. there are cheaper power supplies that are not regulated as much so this can lead to early failure, and controllability adds cost (although not much)

and finally what is there heat sink and how is the temp managed, you can get systems that use a aluminum heat sink that is enough on there own then add fans as a back up, and you can get systems that if the fans fail your system will be cooked. allot of the companies now are using a heat sink material as the circuit board and mounting the bare LEDs directly to it. nothing wrong with this as long as it is rated for proper thermal dissipation, some companies will do this but use the cheapest material they can find then over size fans. So you really have to looking to the construction and parts used in the system.

Steve

dude, get this out of my thread!! :razz:

[StirCrazy]

dude, get this out of my thread!! :razz:

what your against informational posts now :wink:.

simple answer. yes you can do it but you will never be able to increase the intensity unless you drop the lights. but you have several options. the higher you lift your lights the tighter of a vewing angle you can use which gives you more par/intensity as a specific distance and better blending as your farther away. if this is the way you are leaning I would sugest going with something like the 50 watt LED cannons you could have a blue and white right against each other for perfect blending and you could probably recess them into cealing fixtures using optice to controld how big the spread is. I think that would be the coolest setup. no visable lights, just pots mounted into the celing and yet a tank that is still customizable in light color and intensity. you could use electronic dimmers/controlers that mount into a light switch housing and are controled by your computer. now quite trying to drag out of me what I have been working on ;)

Steve

[Delphinus]

What you should do is try placing them in various different spots and seeing what you like best.

[wickedfrags]

I have an illumina 260 and run the whites at about 45% and both blue at 100%. I prefer the colour at this intensity, and the light is ridiculously bright once you get much higher, even at blue at 100%. Once the UV add ons become available I may add some, and add more that at that time so the spectrum stays pleasing to the eye.

[Nano]

:lol: sorry Brad

[burgerchow]

I was on the fence about the AI's and Radions as well. What's the point of ordering 3 or 4 of them for a tank when it seems like everybody is only running them at less than 50 %. Also, they don't seem to have a very aesthetically pleasing hanging system, so I just ordered a pair of these from Jeff at J& L. Should be the first one in Canada to get them.

http://www.kessil.com/products/a350_led_aqua_light.php

I'm also very lazy and don't like playing around with programs. Set it and Forget it !

[Aquattro]

What you should do is try placing them in various different spots and seeing what you like best.

Well ya, but no. The question is rather than going with 4 or 5 or 6 lights at 50% intensity, why not go with less units, a little higher, at say, 80%? Most threads you read claim to run at much lower than full intensity. I'm sure visual coverage with three units in my case will be fine at 50 or 100, but what I'm concerned with is color of corals. I need to maintain that.

But more generally, just asking why most people run lower than 100. a single unit on a small tank is self explanatory, the lamp is clearly too powerful and you can't run less than one. But for 4' tanks, why run the lamp or multiple units at less than full, then buy additional lights to make up for it?

[Aquattro]

I was on the fence about the AI's and Radions as well. What's the point of ordering 3 or 4 of them for a tank when it seems like everybody is only running them at less than 50 %. !

Pretty much my point exactly...

[Sunee]

I run my AIs at 32% both white and blue (two on a 30x27x18" cubish). I cannot suspend them so if I ran at a higher % would blast everything as the tank is shallow. If you can suspend them up higher your idea of getting fewer should work and you should be able to maintain the colour of your corals. I don't have many SPS but the colour is pretty good on the frags that I have.

[Nano]

I know a lot of people were doubtful about leds when they first came into the hobby, so I hear, but after buying sps that had been under metal halides and putting them in my tank, they have 100% more color to them, and the rest of the corals seem to flourish under them as well.

What size tank are you thinking of for this Brad? for a 4' I cant see why you couldnt get away with 2 AI's as they cover a 24x24x24ish area with stock optics, with the wider ones I would imagine if hung at a respective height you could probably get close to 30x30x30 spread with a higher intensity. same thing for radions (aside from the optics part, I dont believe they have any):wink:

[Cal_stir]

I have a DIY LED , it's a 72 led unit, 36 XPG white, 36 XPE blue and royal blue, spread out on a 4' x 1' heatsink 3 inches above the water on my 90 gal 48x18x24, no optics, my white drivers are set at 1.3 amp and my blue drivers are set at 1 amp, I run my whites at 85% and my blues at 100% it looks about 50% brighter than my 4 bulb t5 ho, I am LPS Zoa dominate and all growing well.
I think part of the problem with the AI and Radion units is the concentration of the LEDs

[Aquattro]

What size tank are you thinking of for this Brad?

It's a 180, 72x24x24. Corals mostly cover a 60x18 area, so I'm going to try 3 SOLs, and blast them at near 100% and see what happens. (Not out of the box, but build up to it :))

[Nano]

It's a 180, 72x24x24. Corals mostly cover a 60x18 area, so I'm going to try 3 SOLs, and blast them at near 100% and see what happens. (Not out of the box, but build up to it :))

I think you'll be fine, Martin would be able to confirm for sure, but if each light is capable of 24x24x24 area, there should be no problems. Personally, if I ordered one again I would get wider optics. I have a bit of dark on the top inch around the edge (no biggie) but its there, I can also eliminate that bu raising my light an inch or 2

[jorjef]

But more generally, just asking why most people run lower than 100. a single unit on a small tank is self explanatory, the lamp is clearly too powerful and you can't run less than one. But for 4' tanks, why run the lamp or multiple units at less than full, then buy additional lights to make up for it?

For me it's because I only have LPS and softies and I don't want to torch anything. I think this is the case in the other thread. There didn't seem to be alot of feedback from SPS only tanks. I increased the white by 5% one day and there seemed to be alot of corals less than fully opened, could have been fine in a few days after an adjustment period but I have way too many corals to take the chance. There will always be a give and take regarding coral colors when switching lighting systems...some will look better some won't.

[Aquattro]

For me it's because I only have LPS and softies and I don't want to torch anything. I think this is the case in the other thread. There didn't seem to be alot of feedback from SPS only tanks. I increased the white by 5% one day and there seemed to be alot of corals less than fully opened, could have been fine in a few days after an adjustment period but I have way too many corals to take the chance. There will always be a give and take regarding coral colors when switching lighting systems...some will look better some won't.

I guess that makes sense. Do you have multiple units? Or single fixture? If multiples, could you have gone less units at a higher intensity? Or would that still be too much, just more localized?

[Doug]

My fixture has 20- 3w lights, a combo of half blue and half white. They run full power all the time, unless I want a more blue look at times. I have acro,s less than a foot from them, near the top of my 20g tank

[jorjef]

I guess that makes sense. Do you have multiple units? Or single fixture? If multiples, could you have gone less units at a higher intensity? Or would that still be too much, just more localized?

Two units on a 48" tank. No one unit would have never been enough to cover the 48 inches, even with increased intensity. It created uneven lighting, middle 24"-30" was fine but the ends were too shaded.

[Aquattro]

Two units on a 48" tank. No one unit would have never been enough to cover the 48 inches, even with increased intensity. It created uneven lighting, middle 24"-30" was fine but the ends were too shaded.

Makes sense.

[Cal_stir]

Have you considered a vertex or sunbrite?

[Aquattro]

Have you considered a vertex or sunbrite?

Not really. I don't want a large fixture, and we all know tanks get upgraded all the time, so I want to be able to expand on lighting if needed. I also insist that all my devices are controllable via my Apex.

[StirCrazy]

Not really. I don't want a large fixture, and we all know tanks get upgraded all the time, so I want to be able to expand on lighting if needed. I also insist that all my devices are controllable via my Apex.

ok so why don't you start with two units for your tank. lift them up and see how much area they cover and if you are happy with the intensity and then see how many you realy need.

I think if you want the light out put the same as your 400's you will not be able to lift them to high but unless you have a PAR meter to test them with you'll never know.. and asking on here is just padding your posts :mrgreen:

get on with it and buy a couple already

Steve

[intarsiabox]

Marko had a thread awhile back showing his 3 Sol's over his 180g and it looked good. I have a 36"x24" tank and have 2 Sol's over it as a single unit of either the Sol's or Radions wouldn't cover the area to my liking. I wanted lots of intensity over the entire square footage of the tank with no dim areas on the edges. My height is 12" above the water line and going through a glass top and run at 60%W, 70%RB & 70%B. It took me about 3 months to build up to this level (I used the amount of algae it produced on the glass to know when to increase the level) and haven't seen any need to go any higher. Corals all seem happy and the tank is very bright and pleasing to my eyes.

[Aquattro]

Marko had a thread awhile back showing his 3 Sol's over his 180g and it looked good.

Ya, I used that as a guide, although he doesn't really have much for coral at this time to see how SPS react.
Dez also uses 3 and has great results, although he did add supplemental strips to fill in the shadows.

[Aquattro]

ok so why don't you start with two units for your tank.

get on with it and buy a couple already

Steve

don't think 2 will be enough, I'm ok buying three (closer to June). I'll run them and see what happens. If my tank dies, I'll blame you :)

[intarsiabox]

Ya, I used that as a guide, although he doesn't really have much for coral at this time to see how SPS react.
Dez also uses 3 and has great results, although he did add supplemental strips to fill in the shadows.

I think 4 units would eliminate shadows but would personally try 3 and then see if the extra cost is needed or not. My tank is only 20" deep so I can't say if raising the lights a couple inches higher and cranking up the intensity to 100% (over time) would give you the effect you are looking for or not. While I'm sure it'll grow coral just fine, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Aquattro]

Ya, for my tank I'll try three, see how it looks. The MH setup is all contained in the canopy, so I can simply put it back while saving for a fourth unit, then try again :)

[Madreefer]

Your gonna need 4. Biggest mistake I see is people not getting enough of them. Once your corals are used to them, which in my case has taken since Sept you can crank them up to 100%. You just have to be patient as you run in to problems with bleaching and brownout. Since ive started to get closer to the 100% mark i've seen better growth and color. I've copied a lighting schedule off of a member on that other site and it's turned out great.

[StirCrazy]

Ya, for my tank I'll try three, see how it looks. The MH setup is all contained in the canopy, so I can simply put it back while saving for a fourth unit, then try again :)

which ones are you looking at?

[Duker]

Great thread Brad, really helpful. So many people are where u are, thinking about it, questioning it, wanting them LED's I'll keep following. :0)

[Duker]

Your gonna need 4. Biggest mistake I see is people not getting enough of them. Once your corals are used to them, which in my case has taken since Sept you can crank them up to 100%. You just have to be patient as you run in to problems with bleaching and brownout. Since ive started to get closer to the 100% mark i've seen better growth and color. I've copied a lighting schedule off of a member on that other site and it's turned out great.

Your the first person i've heard running LED's at 100%. A year of getting ur Corals used to it. Wow, but hey ya can't rush it. Feel like sharing ur lighting schedule?? And do u lightning storm ever? And, what led's r u using....cool white, royal blue, blue, uv, red, green? And its the Aqua Illumination Sol? Thanks.

[Aquattro]

which ones are you looking at?


The AI SOL blues...

[Aquattro]

Your the first person i've heard running LED's at 100%.

A couple are, I think Rich said he was on his setup.

[Duker]

Oh yeah, I wonder how long it took him to get them to 100%. Do u recall?

[Aquattro]

Oh yeah, I wonder how long it took him to get them to 100%. Do u recall?

No, but he did mention that the frags he got from me were under full lighting within a couple of days, so that tells me that my corals could take full lighting after the same amount of time.

[tang daddy]

Hey Brad, I am sure on deeper tanks like yours and Rich's running the AI at 100% isn't going to be a problem but to be safe start them off low like 60% and watch how the corals react over a 2 week period, mostlikely they can handle more but I bleached montis and some Lps when I had mine turned up to 70% on a 18" high tank. Most of my sps are higher up in my tank aswell...

Depending on the mounting height of the AI your sps could definitely take the light although led is abit different than metal halides as most users will tell you....

When are you ordering the lights up?

[Aquattro]

When are you ordering the lights up?

My Radiums expire end of June, so probably in that time frame

[StirCrazy]

I was just looking at the output models for them, at 24" they will put out a 30x30 area with 160 to 239 PAR running at 100%they are more suted to a 24x24 area which would still be a tiny bit less than your 400's (mind you I haven't seen the new tank.) at a distance of 30" they only put out a 24" area at the 160 to 239 PAR.

so lifting these lights to get away with less wont work. they do look like a nice light though...

Steve

[Aquattro]

Well, I have 3 24x24 areas in the tank, so 3 lights should work. I also have4-6 inches between the glass and the rockwork all the way around the tank, so I'm going to try three and go from there.

[RuGlu6]

You get what you pay for, with anything, Honestly, and please dont take this the wrong way, but I have seen a couple of threads from you in regards to Evo Leds
yes You are right I am posting everywhere I can to find out the answer I am looking for. It is sometimes hard to motivate people to share knowledge and experience to answer in my own separate thread, so this time I have decided to highjack this thread :redface: (sorry Aquattro) and finally got better answer then just "you get what you pay for"
And the answer was: I need to know what kind of LED is used (actual coating etc), proven record of the fixtures and angle of the optics so I did learn something and thanks to the person who answerd that (StirCrazy). I will continue my own research obviously

[Aquattro]

so this time I have decided to highjack this thread :redface:

And you're still doing it? Time to clean up my thread, me thinks :)

[StirCrazy]

And you're still doing it? Time to clean up my thread, me thinks :)

you going to use soap?

Steve

[Aquattro]

you going to use soap?

Steve

Are you back??

[wolf_bluejay]

Just getting to the original question -- and I'm amazed no one has mentioned or seem to have considered in a build, but the efficiency curve of all LED's in not a straight line. The lumens per watt is ususally calculated at a low power level (300-700mA) and it drops as you run the blubs closer to 100%.

SO when I built my 112 LED fixture, I took this into account. At the upper end (80% and up) you add 20% more electric use and you really get about 12% more light. So, adding 10% more bulbs gives the same light at a lower power bill. I know it's not a whole lot, but over the life span of the LED it does add up.

IE: Cree XPG whites:
700mA = 228 lm = 325 lm/A
1000mA = 305 lm = 305 lm/A
1500mA = 406 = 270 lm/A
So on 100 bulbs running at 100% you get 487 Watts and 40,600 lm of light.

for 130 bulbs at 1000mA (66%) you get 422 Watts and 39,699 lm of light

So, you get almost the same light at 14% less power usage (65 watts less). And if you are running the light 12 hours a day you get about $27 less a year in power costs, for the extra 30 bulbs.

considering I got the LED's pretty cheap, it pays for itself in about 5 years without factoring in the extra heat that come off at 100% and the extra A/C needed to deal with that extra heat as well.

If you consider that you can go with a smaller heat sink even tough you have more bulbs due to less power going into heat, you can almost save enough on the sinks to pay for the extra LED's anyways

So, over the expected 10 year life span, you get longer bulb life (due to lower temp), cost savings on power, better control of colour, and the wonderful ability to just turn the fixture birghter if you wanted to without having to rebuild. It's pretty much hands down better to go with more bulbs

BTW. for the number crunching I did, I found that 112 bulbs at 75% worked out to be the best cost point for what I was building.....

[StirCrazy]

Just getting to the original question -- and I'm amazed no one has mentioned or seem to have considered in a build, but the efficiency curve of all LED's in not a straight line. The lumens per watt is ususally calculated at a low power level (300-700mA) and it drops as you run the blubs closer to 100%.



thats cuz it really doesn't mater unless you going from a LED to another LED. if your coming from T5's MH ect.. your going to save money on power, unless you grossly overbuild. so unless you like worrying about eff and running as close as you can to it, then who cares. its the intensity and customization which are going to entice some one to go from MH to LED not the eff of the LED.

if you keep it cool its going to last just as long burning 1500ma as it would burning 1000ma, so use the extra light.. its only pennies a month more.

Steve

[Bblinks]

A couple are, I think Rich said he was on his setup.

Hey Brad,

I run my AI's full blast for 5 hours a day with ramp up 3 hours prior and 3 hours post. My lights are hung indside the canopy about 8 inches awl. IMHO you wouldn't have any issues running AIs' at full intensity during the same photo period as your halides. Those 400W must be putting out close to a 1000 PAR just under the water line. I can tell you that's about the same or just under the AI's Par output regardless of the spectrum, any healthy SPS colony(in your case the entire tank) will tolerate the slight change in light intensity and flourish with the exception of montiporas.

When I started using AIs on the 210 last November I was in the same predicament as most of us would since xmas is right around the corner and I have exhausted all my fish funds long ago for the year. However I did come up with enough money for 3 of the AI's after explaining the benefits for them to the better half. :mrgreen: After reading a few different stories about LED's intensity taking out prized corals I decided to hang'em 18 inches awl at 50%. In the first couple of days, I was not happy with the color of the tank, it was just way to dim for me. So in the weeks that followed I bumped it up to 100%. I did noticed some of the SPS which are directly under the led started to color up, some of them has been in the tank for months without any colors. At this point I was really impressed with these lights although it has only been a short period of time I know I have made a good choice. One thing still really bugged me was the dimness over the entire tank. Even with them at 100% I still wished that they were brighter.

By the end of 2011 when I upgraded to the 300. I told my wife the same thing I told her when I upgraded to the 210, "this will be the last tank":redface: I knew I wanted the AIs but just didn't know how many. I contacted C2 for info and I was told 12 units for the size of my tank and on the forum I was told 6 units would be plenty, I opted for 9 unit as it is some where in the middle. Now after running them for 4 month, all the sps are keeping there colors nicely and growth rate are awesome. All the frags I got from Brad at the swap are under the led within a few days after arriving without any problems and the more importantly they are keeping there original color as they were in Brad's tank. Honestly I don't think I can keep the same coloration if my light are ran at half intensity. lately I am been contemplating on getting 3 more so I can get full coverage and even if I wanted to keep an efflo on the sandbed I wouldn't have to worry about the lighting. I blame this on Brad since it was his amazing efflo got me thinking about this.

Brad, you have a very nice SPS tank with beautiful coloration, I would think any one with such a nice tank would have a sense of trepidation changing a major component on the tank. I know 3 of them would suffice but as far as the intensity goes, if you want to keep the colors that you have I would keep them at about 8 inches awl and run them at 100% for the same duration as your Metal halide and I will pre-warn you that they will seem a bit dimmer than you halides even at full blast.

[Bblinks]

Oh yeah, I wonder how long it took him to get them to 100%. Do u recall?


Couple of days but started off 18 inches awl then lowered to 8 inches month later.

[Aquattro]

Thanks Rich, sounds like a plan. I'll start with three and hope I keep the colors, and as budget allows, I can add units if needed. But for now, I'm stuck at 3. Property taxes coming up, and I have to budget for Costa Rica next winter :)

[Finisher604]

I have a 6 ft tank with mixed sps and some LPS. I am running only 2 ai Sol, I run the lights from 8am to 12am slowly ramping up.

At 5 pm my lights run at 55%white 75 both blues till 8pm any brighter and things get upset, i don't have a deep tank and have the lights about 10inch above water.

Everything is growing amazing in my opinion.

[Bblinks]

Thanks Rich, sounds like a plan. I'll start with three and hope I keep the colors, and as budget allows, I can add units if needed. But for now, I'm stuck at 3. Property taxes coming up, and I have to budget for Costa Rica next winter :)


I know how it feels Brad, just paid for $800 sewage and property tax is just around the corner. Some times I feel like I can even print it fast enough. Below is a picture of my tank's par reading with AI's on full blast, I used an apogee par meter. If you get a chance to get some par reading off your tank, maybe you can use it as a reference.

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/bblinks/1d2023c4.jpg

Just in case here is a link (http://www.melevsreef.com/par_readings.html) to melevsreef, he has radium 250 and 400 mh par reading there.

[Aquattro]

Rich, is this with the three, or after the addition of the others?

[Bblinks]

No, Thats with all 9. If you look at the picture, there are 2 dark strips which are the 2 braces on the tank. As you can see the par reading drops off dramaticlly as soon as you get on the outter circle of the light and thats why I am gonna get 3 more.

[Aquattro]

thx

[Bblinks]

My buddy Peter, apexfd who took my old tank(210) which is similar to yours but taller had 3 AI's running for a while, now he has put on an extra one because it was too dim for him. I will ask him to give you some feedbacks since your tanks are so close in demension.

[Aquattro]

Does he have any significant SPS in the tank that would compare to mine? To compare color retention?

[Bblinks]

He has lots of sps coral but not too many large colonies like yours. I am heading over there tonight, I can snap some pictures for you and post it lif you like. I just got a new camera (Thanks to Wayne's input)and its my first DSLR so don't expect any thing fancy.:redface:

[Aquattro]

oh, those new DSLRs take the pic for you, just point and shoot :) Pics would be great, thx

[Rice Reef]

oh, those new DSLRs take the pic for you, just point and shoot :) Pics would be great, thx

Lol, Rich, Brad is now convinced that we are a couple of techy nerds...:lol:

[Bblinks]

Lol, Rich, Brad is now convinced that we are a couple of techy nerds...:lol:

Of course we are, we are bunch of Asians! ::wink::mrgreen:

[Bblinks]

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/bblinks/IMG_9379.jpg

Hey Brad, this is on the left side of Peter's tank directly under one AI and its just loving life. It's an Aussie sps.
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/bblinks/IMG_9378.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/bblinks/IMG_9375.jpg

Peter's center island

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/bblinks/IMG_9372.jpg

[Bblinks]

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/bblinks/IMG_9384.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/bblinks/IMG_9359.jpg

Peter's full tank shot, running 4 ai's 2 in the middle and 2 on each side. This pic was taking under full intensity.

I hope this will help Brad.

[Aquattro]

Thanks Rich! I assume that tank is about 30" tall? I think it shows that I can probably get away with three units to begin with. I hope :)

[Bblinks]

Thanks Rich! I assume that tank is about 30" tall? I think it shows that I can probably get away with three units to begin with. I hope :)

Yes the tank is 30 inches tall, I think we can assume 3 will be fine. I do highly recommand you try one first and leave 2 of the metal halide on the tank for a month or so, maybe do the left side first since you have 2 similar but amazing colonies and compare to see the difference in color. Just a thought.

[tang daddy]

Peters light rack looks abit overworked, otherwise the new camera takes great pics....

[Bblinks]

Peters light rack looks abit overworked, otherwise the new camera takes great pics....


you should post this on his journal.:wink: