F*&% Up of epic proportion!!!

[rynoe]

Several months ago I fully automated my 135 gallon tank with apex and ato etc. I was so proud of my new setup that i never had to touch. 3 weeks ago I lost all coral and inverts. Started testing for everything under the sun and found nothing until I got to copper. Without even thinking about it I used a brass fiting coming from the ato pump to the hose and have now destroyed my tank. I have been reading like crazy on the web and I am sick to my stomach with what I see. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Can I save my tank? Is there any chance of saving the live rock. I cannot bring my self to throw out 120 lbs of live rock. Also does any one in the surrey/ vancouver area have a 50 or so gallon tank sitting around that I can borrow to house my fish while the cleanup is happening?

[beefORchicken]

seachem CupriSorb might work, never tried it though...

[rynoe]

Gonna pick some up today and give it a try. I'm going to replace the sand for sure and hopefully save the live rock.

[Aquattro]

If you can read copper with a test kit, the rock is probably shot.

[reefgirl189]

I'm so sorry. That's so terrible. Hopefully it doesn't deter you from trying again.

[sphelps]

I find it surprising that a brass fitting on the ATO line can have such an effect, it really actually makes no sense unless it was actually submerged in the tank somehow allowing it to corrode faster. People use tap water in there reefs for decades and their house lines are full of copper and brass fittings. Is there another source the copper may have come from?

[DiverDude]

I find it surprising that a brass fitting on the ATO line can have such an effect, it really actually makes no sense unless it was actually submerged in the tank somehow allowing it to corrode faster. People use tap water in there reefs for decades and their house lines are full of copper and brass fittings. Is there another source the copper may have come from?

+1

I can't see how a single fitting could suddenly produce toxic levels seemingly overnight.

[waynemah]

People fill their tanks with tap water, which usually runs through a copper line... I'm suprised a fitting would cause a huge impact, maybe due to the low PH somehow?

Anyway, what was your copper reading?

[rynoe]

The line has been sitting in my 50 gallon top off tank permanently. I never thought anything of it my self but right now it is the only thing that makes sense as to why everything is dead.

[asylumdown]

Did you use Kent carbon that was subject to the recall due to copper?

[rynoe]

No kent carbon was used.

[sphelps]

The line has been sitting in my 50 gallon top off tank permanently. I never thought anything of it my self but right now it is the only thing that makes sense as to why everything is dead.

I'd investigate other sources, a brass fitting won't just dissolve in fresh water to the point it would become toxic.

Have you tested the fresh water in the top off container for copper? If this is the source the level of copper should be noticeably higher than what's in the tank.

[The Codfather]

Do you use RO water? If you do, its not good.......
Do not run RO with copper or brass products, it will pit the piping very quickly and you'll have contamination.

[rynoe]

The container is also used for mixing water for water changes and yes it has been confirmed as the source. From a long night of internet reading the use of DI resin to filter the water will greatly accelerate the breakdown of the metals and it can only take a few hours to become toxic.

[rynoe]

Ya i use ro/di system for filtering and that seems to be what really makes a copper fitting worse.

[sphelps]

Interesting... note to self no metallic fittings on RO lines.

Best of luck with the recovery. I'm sure a series of significant water changes will reduce the contamination to below toxic levels.

[The Codfather]

Ya i use ro/di system for filtering and that seems to be what really makes a copper fitting worse.

Yep, because of the pH of the RO, it will pit very quickly.
We run into this problem quite often in the trade.

[rynoe]

It doesn't take very much time to reach toxic levels so a big part of this topic prevention for others. A small simple fitting that most would never think twice about can wipe out an entire system at a very rapid rate. I will try and get a pic of what the fitting looks like up later on.

[daniella3d]

That's sad. I had copper poisoning from Kent carbon and a lot of my corals died. After many water changes I had my water tested by a pro lab and it was free of copper so I guess my liverock did not absorb too much. My corals did absorb some copper because many of my remaining SPS are now fragile and bristle and they break at the slightest touch.

I used Polyfilter to help remove the copper with water changes. I would also use cuprisorb if I were you. Everything that is still alive in my tank is slowly recovering. It really does not take a large amount of free copper to kill corals.

[tim the toolman]

I have a brass fitting on my ato as well. I'm heading home to get it the hell out of my water. Thanks for the post.

[e46er]

Isn't RODI water totally pure? As in absolutely nothing in it? Meaning PH would be 7.0 ? Which is totally neutral ?
I have a hard time seeing 1 fitting leaching so much copper

[Aquattro]

Isn't RODI water totally pure? As in absolutely nothing in it? Meaning PH would be 7.0 ? Which is totally neutral ?
I have a hard time seeing 1 fitting leaching so much copper

Totally neutral will increase it's ability to absorb ions. So yes, RO will pull Cu out quickly

[subman]

Totally neutral will increase it's ability to absorb ions. So yes, RO will pull Cu out quickly

+1 except ro/di water will pull more ions out not just ro water (I'm sure that is what you meant)

That is one of the downsides of di water it will quickly absorb any ions good or bad.

[The Codfather]

I have a brass fitting on my ato as well. I'm heading home to get it the hell out of my water. Thanks for the post.

Brass on the upstream of the ro filter is fine, downstream, not so much.

[The Codfather]

Isn't RODI water totally pure? As in absolutely nothing in it? Meaning PH would be 7.0 ? Which is totally neutral ?
I have a hard time seeing 1 fitting leaching so much copper

No the pH of pure water is slightly acidic, hence why its called the universal solvent.

[tim the toolman]

how long ago did you set up the ato? mine is about 4 mnths old and im really starting to worry at work. i know a couple more hours wont be the deciding factor but im just curious as to your timeline.

[tim the toolman]

Brass on the upstream of the ro filter is fine, downstream, not so much.

Its the same asd the posters. Its submerged in the fresh ro water as a reducer from the puump

[Aquattro]

No the pH of pure water is slightly acidic, hence why its called the universal solvent.

pH of pure water is exactly 7.0, and neutral. The problem is that pure water is not usually pure. Exposure to air can form carbonic acid, making it slightly acidic.

[Nano]

sorry to hear of your crash! I recently had a minor one, due to kent carbon, unfortunately lost some livestock, and nearly killed off the live rock, my pod count was very low almost non existent. but After feeding the tank pods, and phytos (etc) its coming back hope everything turns out ok in the long run for you. its such a PITA when this happens

[bling_bling466]

One guy at the LFS around here told me that the silicon would even absorb copper. Just like live rock and release it slowly back into the tank. I dojlno if it's true or not hope it helps.

[rynoe]

The fitting ended up in the system in january and everything was fine for a while and then suddenly evrything went. So timeline was around 3 months.

[msjboy]

don't forget to rid of the rocks for good... its no good for anyone in the future especially if it recirculates to us reefers unknowingly.

msjboy

[rynoe]

Ya and depending what you read it basically looks like the whole sytem is garbage not just the rocks.

[Aquattro]

Ya and depending what you read it basically looks like the whole sytem is garbage not just the rocks.

The tank can be resealed and washed with acid to remove copper. Theoretically the rock could also be bathed in acid and stripped of copper, but it's a lot of work. Any equipment can also be cleaned. Crappy situation all around...

[troni]

sorry to hear that and thanks for the learning experience! good luck with future endevours

[rynoe]

I had read that washing the rock with acid might work. At this point time and effort doesnt really matter. to me it beats throwing out $500 of rock if i can save it.

[troni]

I had read that washing the rock with acid might work. At this point time and effort doesnt really matter. to me it beats throwing out $500 of rock if i can save it.


unless it costs more to clean

[rynoe]

Acid is cheap just depends how much a person values there time I guess.

[Aquattro]

muriatic acid is cheap. If you have the time, fill a large rubbermaid with fresh water, add half a bottle of acid, add rock. It should fizz on the surface. LEt it soak for 10 minutes or so, then remove to a new tub of RO water, and let it soak overnight. Test the RO tub for Cu the next day. You'll need to add a big box of baking soda to the acid tub to neutralize it before dumping. Wear old clothes and long rubber gloves. Do this outside and don't drip the acid on your sidewalk.

[rynoe]

Thanks for all the help everybody.

[Zoaelite]

No the pH of pure water is slightly acidic, hence why its called the universal solvent.

Noooooppeeeeee :razz:. The universal solvent title comes from the polarity of the oxygen hydrogen bonds, because oxygen is MUCH more electronegative than hydrogen the bond is polar and has the ability to interact with both positive and negative charges in solution. Its this charge that universally dissociates ionic compounds, non-polar compounds such as fats are a different story though.

As for the pH & Copper its a very similar mechanism to what happens in our body for gas exchange. Purely a concentration gradient, as the RO water has been stripped of any dissolved ions (Mg, Fe, Ca, ect....) it naturally wants to regain these and does so by stripping the Cu2+ ions from the fitting.

Really sorry to hear about our loss, I'm on board with water changes and a polyfilter. Your rock might be toast, I would keep the tank invert-less for an extended period of time while you monitor your Copper levels.

[The Codfather]

Noooooppeeeeee :razz:. The universal solvent title comes from the polarity of the oxygen hydrogen bonds, because oxygen is MUCH more electronegative than hydrogen the bond is polar and has the ability to interact with both positive and negative charges in solution. Its this charge that universally dissociates ionic compounds, non-polar compounds such as fats are a different story though.

As for the pH & Copper its a very similar mechanism to what happens in our body for gas exchange. Purely a concentration gradient, as the RO water has been stripped of any dissolved ions (Mg, Fe, Ca, ect....) it naturally wants to regain these and does so by stripping the Cu2+ ions from the fitting.

Really sorry to hear about our loss, I'm on board with water changes and a polyfilter. Your rock might be toast, I would keep the tank invert-less for an extended period of time while you monitor your Copper levels.

Hey, Im only a plumber, stop using those big words..........
Ok my mistake, what Levi said...sounds better anyway.

[Zoaelite]

If it's an consolation after I'm done my bach. will probably get a job examining stool samples :neutral:. Life rocks WOOT!

[waynemah]

If it's an consolation after I'm done my bach. will probably get a job examining stool samples :neutral:. Life rocks WOOT!

Sounds like a $h!tty job... :lol:

Sorry, had to.

[e46er]

Totally neutral will increase it's ability to absorb ions. So yes, RO will pull Cu out quickly

Oh- I Should have paid more attention in chem class apparently

[cwatkins]

The acid idea sounds like a great way to save the rock. The tank silicone may still have some Cu in it but it could be pulled out with some absorber maybe.

So.... Acid bath for the rocks sounds like a cheap $$ idea. Just ensure to think everything through twice. Don't end up with a ruined floor or sidewalk! Or even a burned hand!

Then down the road you could try a test with an invert or two in the tank?

P.S. Really sorry to hear about this! I wouldn't even know where to begin if my tank crashed :(

[RuGlu6]

This Synthetic Rubber Coating could have been used
to prevent from contamination.
http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip

i dont know if below statment is true though, because i've never used this staff but looks promising.
.
Plasti Dip is a multi-purpose, air dry, specialty rubber coating. It can be easily applied by dipping, brushing, or spraying. Plasti Dip protective coating is ideal for a broad array of do-it-yourself projects around the home, garage, garden, and elsewhere. It protects coated items against moisture, acids, abrasion, corrosion, and skidding/slipping, and provides a comfortable, controlled grip. Plasti Dip remains flexible and stretchy over time, and will not crack or become brittle in extreme weather conditions. It has been tested and proven in temperatures from -30°F
.

[asylumdown]

Cleaning the rock with acid will save the physical rock, but it certainly won't be 'live' anymore. So assuming we're talking 50 pounds of rock (most live rock sells for around $10 a pound), you'll essentially be turning it in to something dead, like Marco rock, which sells for about $3 a pound and will need to be completely cycled again. So really, your best case scenario is that you've lost about $350 in value, and you should consider whether the multi-month (to multi-year, depending on whose rock opinion you're listening to) process of getting your rock back to where it was before the copper incident isn't worth simply replacing it with good quality, new live rock.

[Aquattro]

Cleaning the rock with acid will save the physical rock, but it certainly won't be 'live' anymore. So assuming we're talking 50 pounds of rock (most live rock sells for around $10 a pound), you'll essentially be turning it in to something dead, like Marco rock, which sells for about $3 a pound and will need to be completely cycled again. So really, your best case scenario is that you've lost about $350 in value, and you should consider whether the multi-month (to multi-year, depending on whose rock opinion you're listening to) process of getting your rock back to where it was before the copper incident isn't worth simply replacing it with good quality, new live rock.

that's what I would do. Cleaning was just an option, but yes, it's officially dead as dead gets after an acid bath. Subject to releasing PO4 down the road as well, once all the dead stuff in the pores start rotting.

[rynoe]

Cleaning is still on the table but most likely the rock will be replaced.

[Geofrog]

Stupid question, I know, but could the rock still be used in a FOWLR systems, with the knowledge that it is contaminated with copper, so no shrimp or clean up crew?

[daniella3d]

Is the liverock really garbage now? because in my system I had enough free copper to kill half of my corals and the rest was in shock for a while but I had my water tested after a month and no more trace of copper. From my experience the copper will not be absorbed so much into the liverock and will eventually bind to organic matter and be neutralized or at least turned into a non toxic form and removed by the skimmer and syphoning of the sand.

I did not change my liverock after the copper poisoning and everything is thriving again in my tank. Copper is at very low level so normal level for saltwater, so my liverock is not leaching any copper or at least not something that can do any level of dammage, and I have a very porous Totoka liverock.

I would test for copper before throwing out good live liverock. I am guessing that with Cuprisorb and a few good water change, the liverock is going to be perfectly fine.

[Aquattro]

Stupid question, I know, but could the rock still be used in a FOWLR systems, with the knowledge that it is contaminated with copper, so no shrimp or clean up crew?

Not stupid at all. Yes, the rock could be used in a FOWLR system. The danger comes down the road when the person shuts down and tries to sell the rock. This is always a risk buying used rock...

[daniella3d]

Unless it has healthy coral on it...that alone is a clue that the liverock should be healthy as well.

Not stupid at all. Yes, the rock could be used in a FOWLR system. The danger comes down the road when the person shuts down and tries to sell the rock. This is always a risk buying used rock...

[Casey8]

Even if you buy at LFS, it is still not safe. Everybody can sell their rocks to LFS to get a credit and we have no clue what the condition of the rocks are anyways. Unless you get the rocks when they arrive at the store and you see them unwrapping them in front of you. That was how I got my rocks at the beginning. I don't trust somebody else's rocks if I don't know that person well.

[Money pit]

Ok so in the summer I do a lot of prospecting. If we come across gypsum, calcite or any other calcium type rock and want to see what minerals they are holding, we will soak them in Muriatic. Often whats left over is just a sludge that we pan out to check for mineral content. I know this sounds off in left field, but the point is, I'm not sure what shape your rock will be in if left over night, you may end up with a lot less than you started with, and it will defiantly be dead. And what will you do with the acid when you are done? It would take quite a bit to soak a 135g tank worth. Myself, I think I would go with the Marco rock, with a bit of new live rock for seeding.

[rynoe]

How is the Marco rock I was thinking of using some

[Aquattro]

, but the point is, I'm not sure what shape your rock will be in if left over night, you may end up with a lot less than you started with,

lol, yes, like I said, soak for about 10 minutes to just dissolve the surface of the rock. Overnight would be messy.

Disposing of the acid is easy once you've added a box of baking soda to the mix. Just pour it down the drain.

[fishytime]

How is the Marco rock I was thinking of using some

its dense and heavy and will probably never be as good as live rock even after it eventually becomes live.....

[tim the toolman]

So after worrying I finally got to the store to buy a copper test kit after I had also used a brass fitting in my ato system and had been fully submersed for over 5 ish months. Pulled the fitting when this thread was first posted and there was definite signs of wear and fading of the original coloration and as a result of this I was scared.
Anywho I tested my RO ato system and it came up 0 as well my tank showed the same readings. Phew I think I may have dodged a bullet here.
I'm off to the store now to buy a coral in celebration lol.

[rynoe]

Glad to hear that you seem to be ok however keep a close eye on everything because most test kits that are available to us don't provide readings low enough to detect copper in small amounts and it does not take very much to be toxic for inverts and coral

[daniella3d]

YOu have a good point and the only way to be 100% sure is to put a cup of carbon runing in loop wit a small filter to make sure the water is really going through it, in a bucket with like a gallon or half a gallon of water for a day, then analyse that water. in my own test it reached .358 ppm which is 3 times the dosage to kill ich. with this test you can be 100% sur that if there is copper in the carbon the common test is going to tedect it easily.

If that come out negative, it was not copper in the carbon. If it does contain copper in large quantité like mine, then you have the culprit right there and a sample should be sent by mail to the company.

Glad to hear that you seem to be ok however keep a close eye on everything because most test kits that are available to us don't provide readings low enough to detect copper in small amounts and it does not take very much to be toxic for inverts and coral

[tim the toolman]

Glad to hear that you seem to be ok however keep a close eye on everything because most test kits that are available to us don't provide readings low enough to detect copper in small amounts and it does not take very much to be toxic for inverts and coral

I do agree. However the fact that I am reading 0 on multiple tests and I still have all my coral and inverts doing perfectly fine I think I will be ok. I am still going to be removing the fitting of course I'm just not going to have to cry myself to sleep thinking about a full tank overhaul.
It was just a standard seachem test kit but I do not have the resources to bring my water to a lab.

Edit. The seachem test kit actually test to 0.01mg/l. And seawater is .003 so yes I could have some undetected but I cannot test to the quantities that could be present.

[Ian]

Sorry to hear about the crash and cause! Thanks though for posting and making us all aware of the potential disaster!
I just did a search for ANY copper fittings anywhere near yhe R/O in use.