Bertuzzi decision

[Buccaneer]

Just want to know if everyone thinks he got what he deserves ? ...

personally I have no sympathy for a guy that resorts to a sucker punch to get back at another player but in this case it was made worse by the fact that he crushed him face first into the ice from behind :frown: ... in the case of serious injury with intent I feel the offending player should be out for as long or longer than the player that was hurt.

I know you Canuck fans are hurting because you lost your second leading scorer but the kids family almost lost a son :sad:

[Nemain]

i have been watching hockey since i was a grasshopper, and I have seen this sort of hit time and time again. It is unfortunate that he was seriously injured, but I think buckling down on the players who don't actually almost cause death would be the best place to start. A 5 minute bout in the PB isn't going to cut it.

It was a cheap move, and I really doubt he intended the injury that occurred. That said - I think the punishment was fair.

And yes, it really sucks for the cunucks =(

beth

[MitchM]

Did you hear the crowd during the initial stages of the altercation? They went nuts....cheering... :confused: .

I think that the punishment was fair enough, given that it happened during the course of a hockey game. I don't think that criminal charges are warranted.

Personally, I think that fighting should be banned, and I realize that I'm in the minority on that.
Given the WWF mentality that is out there in professional sports, I'm pretty sure that this kind of thing is going to happen again.

It's the main reason that I quit playing hockey (junior) many moons ago.

Mitch

[Samw]

I think the suspension was a lot more appropriate in this case compared to the one Suter got for taking Paul Kariya's head off. Kariya has never been the same and Suter got 4 games. Kariya probably could have been a contender for the Hart trophy for years to come. Instead he is now just another good but not great player. The NHL needs to protect the players better. I don't see why they can't give automatic suspensions for hits to the head (as per the hit on Naslund). Right now, it is ok to bodycheck someone's head with your shoulder. That is considered a clean hit and that seems wrong.

[LostMind]

The bertuzzi hit was stupid and shouldnt have happened. If Moore wanted to skate away, Bertuzzi should have let him and started something later.

The crowd was cheering because there was 3 other fights going on at the time and the goalies were mouthing each other off.

I'd love to see a cleaner hockey game. No fighting, no cheapshots and more consistent ref'ing. But it wont happen :(

Vancouver will not be a contentender this year and that does suck. But look at our roster anyways, we are all screwed up with injuries and stuff anyways. And Naslund still isnt back to form from the hit the other week so...

The ref'ing is so obviously stacked against us, once Vancouver gets some respect from the league, we may have a chance...

Maybe in 2 or 3 more years :(

[Namscam]

I think that the suspension was kind of far given that he did sucker punch the guy, but I m sure he didnt mean to injure the guy that bad because I think he tripped on the hockey stick or the shoelace or something like that so he didnt really intend to take the guy down. Plus its part of the game..These players knew what they were getting into when they play the game. Hockey is a full contact sport, its not like some **edited** game like badminton or what not.. Plus with the crazy amount of money that these guys get paid, they do know that they will get injured one day. In the end, hockey is a full contact sport, and players cant just play the game and expect to never get injured. If you dont want to get injured , dont play the sport

[Quinn]

It's no secret that the fights make the game more appealing, and make the ratings go up. I wonder if the coaches and the league are setting a fight quota of sorts - I wouldn't be suprised. If that is the case, it's the entire league's fault. But either way, it's a physical sport. I think it warrants punishment, but not criminal charges.

[MCC]

good reply namscam....

yes....it was a cheap punch...but if u see other games...it happens liek 10 times per night per game!

i was just unfortunate the way moore landed....other players just land differnetly on the ice....so the way bertuzzi sat on him is not some cheap thing or watso ever...jsut an unlucky break for both players....
so sorry for his family...but as namscan said....this stuff happens...u see worse hits than this one...it wasnt like bertuzzi took a stick or a knife and try to run after moore to stab him....he just a 250lbs dude that fell on a smaller player..in a awkward position..which resulted in a broken neck...

in my opinioni....the suspension is fair up to the end of the season..but not fair if into the playoffs!....coz colin campbell is out of his mind...did he just realized he didnt just suspended a player...he actaully ended all playoff hopes for an enitre team....or entire provincE!!
like other sucky players gettin suspensions....they hurt more players...as wif the kariya incident..taht guy got 4 games only and he is a sucky player wont affect his team! but u dont take out an impact player..no matter wat....tat just totally really screws up the sport for the city of vancovuer

if u want more punishment..fine bert for 500,000 dolalrs or something....but dont screw up the sport for an entire team and city!!!

it is stupid thing that bert did...and a more stupid suspension...u make the individula pay for his stupid actions..but not the whole team or the whole city or whole province pay for one person's dumb actions...
supsend the guy for remainder of the seaosn..and make him pay like a large sum to charity or something....
but not screw up the team chemsitry and stuff....

obviously cancuks need bert..look at the game last night....NO PLAYER WAS INFRONT OF THE goalie!....we dont have another player like tat to stand infront of the goalie to get screens and impact the gaem....

my opinion maybe outspoken..but im as frustrated as anyoen else..coz i love the cancuks..i watched them for 14 years now! since i was a little kindergarden kid!!! i was so excited about tis year....but had to end the season and hopes coz of tis....

oh well...tat is it for now!

[Buccaneer]

He did not " fall " on the guy accidentally :rolleyes: ... and this is not the first time that he has done that same move ( one of the sports shows dug up tape of Bertuzzi doing the same " fall on the back of a guys head " move ) crushing dudes face in the ice :frown:

[chwkreefer]

I agree with the suspension of play for the reg season and the entirety of playoffs, but that's where it should end. To keep it open ended at the start of the next season to wait and see how Moore is doing is incorrect imo. The NHL has never deemed the suspension time based on the injury time of the victim before. They should then carry that rule over to when a player injures another player. Let them both stay home til the injured player is fit to return. (being sarcastic but I think you know what I'm getting at)

I have been a Canucks fan since the mid 70's and this incident really disgusts me. I know Todd is a good guy and just made a stupid decision. He showed a lot of character and guts to come out an apologies the way he did. I know he will make things right with Moore personally as well.

The thing that disgusts me the most is the type of media attention this is getting. It's getting ridiculous and some of the media people offering their expert opinions aren't even hockey people. I'm sick of it and for Todd's sake hope that things calm down soon. It's gonna take a long time for Todd to rebound from this emotionally and to work on his tarnished reputation. I'm sure we've all did things we wish we could take back, so he that is without sin cast the first stone. Granted this mistake was huge, well so is the punishment and the pressure from pretty much all of N. America. People are really kickin this guy while he's down. Pathetic.

[Skimmerking]

I couldnt believe it
I have been playing contact hockey all my life. Most of it was with the army. I havev never seen that before ,it strike s me as s idiot ,all the money trhey make and they still do that dum stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ANy way he desrves all what he receives.

Mike

[Marcus K]

I am a Canucks fan and was late at watching the game. I got home when the second period was two minutes in and from that point it was obvious that the Canucks were not thier to win or play hockey. What I would like to know is why was Bertuzzi on the ice considering the game was well over into the third? Why was Moore on the ice? The hit was from behind and did cause serious injury, was it meant to be? What matters is that a player is out because of a cheap shot after the play and he should be repromanded for his actions. Its nice that the suspension has been left open pending the outcome. But I do think that Bertuzzi is not the only one who's actions should be questioned. The Refs should have called the game better and should have ejected more players early on. They should have given the coaches warrnings and bench penalties. The Coaches did nothing to calm down thier player nor did they take out key players to prevent injury especially going into the playoffs. No we are down our #2 scorer for the rest of the season because our coach screwed up. The league should now thing about thier icing rules!

Just my 2 cents.

[jgoldsney]

Well I guess that I may be a little in the minority but I think they should take out the instigator penalty and bring back the enforcer type of role. I think that the hit was a total cheap shot and he deserves whatever he gets but I think that the whole thing could have been settled if way back when Moore hit Naslund an enforcer had skated up to him the next shift and "educated" him. All of this would never have happend.


I remember in the 80's when the Oilers were in their prime.... No one touched Gretz because they knew that they would have the wrath of Semenko descending on them.

It just seemed that things were a little more ballanced and the "star" players were able to play without having to worry about getting their bell rung by some one out to prove something.


Ah well that is just my thought on the matter.

Joel

[Samw]

I wonder if all this would have been avoided if 1. a suspension was given for the head hit on Naslund and 2. if Moore apologized and visited Naslund at the hospital in good faith (I heard Moore never apologized for it). I find it unfair for the league to fine the Canucks and say that they did not do anything to reduce the "Temperature" of the situation when neither the other team nor the league itself did anything. Does the league not look at itself to see what they could have done themselves to tone down the "Temperature". If the league and the other team doesn't do anything to help tone down the situation from Naslund's head (and potentially career ending) hit, why should they expect the Canucks organization to do the same when they were the victim of the first concussion? Yes, the Bertuzzi hit turned out somewhat tragic but that was clearly not his intention to break someone's neck. He went out there to show the league that no one can badly injure his friend and a Hart Trophy candidate and not expect any consequences. He decided it was time to drop the gloves on that shift. But the other guy didn't want to dance. He wanted and tried to do the honorable thing, but in the end, due to circumstances at that time, he couldn't and didn't.

If it is the norm and standard to be able to knock people out with hits to the head and have the league and the hitter shrug it off and say its just part of the game, then of course, this game will continue to be violent.

[three dawgs]

Sports IMO has gone too far off the handle. I think that the suspension was fair and more like that should be given. The sports world in a WHOLE should start cracking down on this type of BS. Young kids see this and feel its okay to play that way. What would you do as a parent if YOUR child at the age of 10 was crippled in a game because of a cheap shot? You now have a child at the age of 10 as a parapelegic. Your wholelife changes. What is your reaction going to be?
We can all sit there and say "Yes this has to stop". But where do they start? It would be like the drinking and driving rule. Hey most of us did it as kids. YUP we were stupid. We got away with it. When did they start suspending licenses? In the 80's? Thats not fair is it? But in a WHOLE we are alot happier now that they take the YAHOO off the road for a year. Not that this works all the time. I think it makes everyone look at there actions and the outcomes. The rules have to change and so do the punishments. Yes too bad it was Bertuzzi, could have been McSorley that initially got the punishment like Bert, but nope. They are using Bert as the example and yes it has to start NOW.
This is only my opinion and thats the way I feel.

[r_wellwood]

Well, its interesting that this topic made its way onto an Aquarium BB - I believe that this supports the notion that this Hockey incident runs much deeper into society than most of us care to realize. This incident is tied to our everyday society.

All in all, we should all try and look at what good can come from all of this. Bottom line, within either the NHL or society we have rules/laws. Individuals don't break these rules/laws just because there is a penalty, but because we all have a sense (although different) of whats 'right and wrong'. That sense does change (short term, long term), and emotional reactions are a big factor influencing short term perception. Everyone has seen the incident, everyone has been made aware that Bertuzzi's actions were wrong, everyone has been able to see a distraught Todd Bertuzzi own up to his actions and admit he made a mistake. These are the lessons we should all hope to learn without having to experience - especially children. It would have been horrifying for the kids at the game to see this happen, and I would hope that these kids have been able to see the event through, and that this has influenced (for the better) their sense of 'right and wrong'. I would also hope that everyone has seen Todd take public responsibility for his actions; accountability is a trait that we should wish upon all people.

Now, the hockey fan in me is disappointed this whole thing happened, right from the Moore hit on Naslund two weeks or so ago. There is no doubt that this incident has opened the publics' eye to some of the issues in the game: the NHLs' lack of consistently enforcing the rules, the NHLs' lack of being proactive in protecting all players of the game, and the fact that the NHL is a business as much as it is a sport.

I hope Steve Moore is able to get back and live his life soon. The type of injury he sustained (neck) is serious, but not quite as serious as the media made it out to be. I would not want to have that injury; but, he was not subject to any high risk of permanent damage (spinal cord). Like Brian Burke, I hope Steve Moore is back skating soon.

The suspension handed to Todd is harsh, but the NHL could not have decided on anything less. There is no way the league could risk having the Canucks facing the Avs in the third round, and there is no way the league could risk having Todd back being the hero in one or more playoff games. This would take away from the severity of the situation AND would lead to more media 'bashing' towards the NHL Head Office.

I won't let the 'Canuck Fan' side of me out here, that would just open up a can of 'competitive conspiracy' and anger towards the Avs and NHL...

I would hope that this incident, as suggested on TSN, is not forgotten; and as TSN suggested it should be used as a tool to teach at many levels of hockey. Todd shouldn't have done what he did, bottom line. Was he alone in this... no. It is now turn for the NHL to step up and make 'the good ol game' a great game.

RW

[targaboy78]

Just my .02 worth. Bert was obviously the initial contributing factor. I do not dispute that.

However, I believe (just my opinion) Moore's injuries MAY (or may not) have been complicated by the "dog-pile" that ensued after the initial contact.

- Yes, the sucker punch was less than sportsmanlike.

- The falling ontop of Moore may (or may not) have been deliberate - he did have him by the jersey and may have been pulled over as Moore fell?

- The AV player that piled on top to punch Bert actually looks like he punched Moore. (Some camera angles)

- The remainder of the players piling on did not make the situation an easier on Moore's neck.

I think this could have been avoided if the original check on Naslund was reviewed or at least given an Interference penalty. NHL Refs suck.
I think if Ruutu layed the same hit on Forsberg or Sakic on open ice like Moore on Nassy - there would have been a call.

My comments on if Bert got what he deserved...
The remainder of this season - Definately.
The first 1 or 2 rounds of the playoffs - Sure.
The entire playoffs - No.
A review at the beginning of next year to determine if the suspension is to continue. - I won't even dignify that with a response.

I hope Moore recovers and can play again. Regardless of what Bert deserves.... Nobody deserves what Moore got.

[AJ_77]

this will enforce the thinking that north american players are a bunch of goons (mostly) and that the europeans are the skilled ones (non-goons)

hard to argue against that sometimes - the second avalanche player was swinging away before he got bertuzzi off the guy's back. as was said, he could easily have added to moore's injuries without stopping to think - did he think that dogpiling his own player was helping him??

for the most part the "goon" stereotype holds true (the popular t-shirt reads "give blood, play hockey")

[StirCrazy]

heres a twist for you all, do you think Bert deserves a less fair sentence than a murder? thats what he got.. when they passed the ruling they said he was suspended for the rest of the season, the playoffs and they will rule at a later date as to they feel it warrants more.

at least a murder who is sentenced gets the full sentence instead of being left hanging.

I must make it clear that I think he deserves a harsh punishment as i don't condone goon tactics with obvious intents to injure, but I do believe when they ruled yesterday they should have made clear the "FULL SENTENCE" instead of leaving him hanging.

Steve

[Samw]

I don't think his intent was to injure (put someone on the injury list) because he knew that would be an automatic suspension. I do however think his intent was to inflict pain, (lots of it), but without doing anything that warrants a suspension. Like it was mentioned, he's driven guys to the ice before but never injured anyone. He thought he could get away with it (and not injure anyone) again this time, but he didn't.

[trilinearmipmap]

His punishment should be the same as if I did this to someone on the street. A criminal conviction, jail time, and restitution to the victim. I assume his victim will never play in the NHL again, he should have to pay out the rest of his salary for the years he will miss from his career, this will add up to ?how many million.

On a related note, why are we paying these apes several million dollars a year to play pro sports? They add nothing to our society and they are a disgrace to our culture. Perhaps we should pay doctors, teachers, and police more, and impose a 95% tax on pro athletes to cover the cost.

[Samw]

But going by that, wouldn't we first have to lock up Moore for knocking out Naslund?

If we put every hockey player who assaults (hits) another during a game in jail, then we would see 9 or 10 people in jail per game.

[Buccaneer]

heres a twist for you all, do you think Bert deserves a less fair sentence than a murder? thats what he got.. when they passed the ruling they said he was suspended for the rest of the season, the playoffs and they will rule at a later date as to they feel it warrants more.

at least a murder who is sentenced gets the full sentence instead of being left hanging.

I must make it clear that I think he deserves a harsh punishment as i don't condone goon tactics with obvious intents to injure, but I do believe when they ruled yesterday they should have made clear the "FULL SENTENCE" instead of leaving him hanging.

Steve

WTF are you talking about ? ... comparing this to murder ? ... he may just get the sentence you refer to as in jail time ( not that I agree with that ) but your arguement makes no sense ... a murder is pretty final ( we know the outcome right ? ) ... this kid lies on a hospital bed and we wont know for awhile if/when he recovers ... the league is justified in reserving further judgement based on the extent of the injuries.

[StirCrazy]

this kid lies on a hospital bed and we wont know for awhile if/when he recovers ... the league is justified in reserving further judgment based on the extent of the injuries.

first you better watch the news.. his injuries have been down graded to a concussion and two bone chips in the neck.. he was walking around the hospital today and he is flying home tomorrow, the prognosis is he will most likely play next year unless other complications come up.

and no i am not comparing it to murder, i am saying that a murder gets a more fair trial. did they wait for mcSorlys judgment?? no. this is all about the media now.. if this dies down fast he will be allowed to play next year.. if in a few months there is still a ruckus about it then they will suspend him longer. they have guidelines in place they should follow them and make a definite ruling. weather it is 10 games or a 2 year suspension it doesn't matter but he has the right to a final verdict.

as for the intent to injure.. if you watch the replay he grabbed him and gave him a huge blow in the side of the head from behind, then he drove his face into the ice as he tried twice more to hit him in the head. i am not saying he intended to injure him this bad but he did intend to put him out of the game for the night as a warning to anyone else who would take a run at nassalan (SP*)

as for criminal charges by a court of law.. i personally am against this. there are some things that are assumed when you sign a contract and getting injured in a fight is a reasonable expatiation in the NHL. this is why we have the league to suspend/fine inappropriate action. the problem is they have been letting the cheep stuff go to long and it has gotten out of hand.

Steve

[whaase]

this kid lies on a hospital bed and we wont know for awhile if/when he recovers ... the league is justified in reserving further judgment based on the extent of the injuries.

first you better watch the news.. his injuries have been down graded to a concussion and two bone chips in the neck.. he was walking around the hospital today and he is flying home tomorrow, the prognosis is he will most likely play next year unless other complications come up.


Steve

And that makes it ok? :rolleyes: The guy said he wasn't trying to injure him. Hmmm, what in the hell was he trying to do? I think Bert got what he deserves. The main reason he will have to face the NHL again next year is if Van. get's knocked out in the first round he really didn't miss much time. Personally I think Mark Crawford should be suspended too. He got his players going after the hit on Naslund (sp?), it was his responsibility as a coach to calm his players down, instead, he freaked out. It was a clean hit. Anyone who thinks Moore just fell and Bertuzzi fell on top should get there head examined. I think more than anything it is disappointing. I was really looking forward to Calgary meeting a full Van. team :smile:

Walter

[StirCrazy]

And that makes it ok? :rolleyes:

Walter

did you read my whole post or just the first paragraph? :mrgreen:

I have never implied that it was ok, infact I am probably one of the people that is hardest on him. I just feel everyone has a right to a fast and finite sentance.

Steve

[UnderWorldAquatics]

my 2 cents...
I think what bertuzi did was wrong and he got punished for it, I think the punishment was more than severe enough and if they go any further its getting ridiculous. If you think its Bertuzi's fault, as well as Crawford's fault, then it also has to be the fault of Moore for the cheap hit that he pulled earlier and "should" have been pummeled for(thats how the NHL works), also it is the ref's fault for letting the cheap shots go unpunished, and the leauges fault for not doing something about the way the game is played and letting things go unpunished. An NHL team could be compared to a big family and they protect their own, if your family member was taken out by a cheap shot you would probably want justice, or repercussions to be seen and felt by the one that took out your family member with a cheap shot,(especially if the "moderators" did nothing about it) thats what Bertuzi was trying to do and it went a little too far and a bad fall didnt help either, I blame it more on the NHL and the ref's of the previous Moore/Naslund incident, than I blame it on Bertuzi, he was protecting his family. I know if someone KO'ed one of my family members and the"law' did nothing about it, I would be steaming mad and want some repercussions to be felt by the culprit.... Thats what happened, but circumstances led to a more serious injury than the momentary pain that was intended to be inflicted. I dont think the injury was intentional but the pain factor was, Bertuzi is far from the only one to blame in this incident, people are looking at it like nothing else was involved other than a player momentarily ticked off, dishing out more than he should have. I dont like violence but when cheap shots go unpunished, you know mob justice will insue, its human nature to protect the ones we care about.

[whaase]

my 2 cents...
I think what bertuzi did was wrong and he got punished for it, I think the punishment was more than severe enough and if they go any further its getting ridiculous. If you think its Bertuzi's fault, as well as Crawford's fault, then it also has to be the fault of Moore for the cheap hit that he pulled earlier and "should" have been pummeled for(thats how the NHL works), also it is the ref's fault for letting the cheap shots go unpunished, and the leauges fault for not doing something about the way the game is played and letting things go unpunished. An NHL team could be compared to a big family and they protect their own, if your family member was taken out by a cheap shot you would probably want justice, or repercussions to be seen and felt by the one that took out your family member with a cheap shot,(especially if the "moderators" did nothing about it) thats what Bertuzi was trying to do and it went a little too far and a bad fall didnt help either, I blame it more on the NHL and the ref's of the previous Moore/Naslund incident, than I blame it on Bertuzi, he was protecting his family. I know if someone KO'ed one of my family members and the"law' did nothing about it, I would be steaming mad and want some repercussions to be felt by the culprit.... Thats what happened, but circumstances led to a more serious injury than the momentary pain that was intended to be inflicted. I don't think the injury was intentional but the pain factor was, Bertuzi is far from the only one to blame in this incident, people are looking at it like nothing else was involved other than a player momentarily ticked off, dishing out more than he should have. I don't like violence but when cheap shots go unpunished, you know mob justice will insue, its human nature to protect the ones we care about.

Are you serious? Moore paid for it in the first period. He fought. What he did was not a cheap shot (I don't believe), and you are saying that it's the NHL and the ref's fault more than Bertuzzi's? You seem to have a twisted view of the world. Burtuzzi chose to do what he did, if Moore decided to fight Burtuzzi and got his royal a$$ kicked (which would happen!) then that would be fair, but he got suckered. It's NO ONES fault but Bertuzzi's. No matter how "fair/unfair" you think Moore's hit was he didn't deserve that.

Walter

[Buccaneer]

this kid lies on a hospital bed and we wont know for awhile if/when he recovers ... the league is justified in reserving further judgment based on the extent of the injuries.



and no i am not comparing it to murder, i am saying that a murder gets a more fair trial.



Steve

You are still trying to compare the judgement against a murder/civil trial ... if somebody is videotaped stabbing somebody and they goto hospital they will prolly get charged with assault with a weapon ... if they die from those injuries then those charges get upgraded to murder ... there are usually no video cameras when a guy murders somebody so hence a big trial etc etc .... if there was a video then the trial would not be all that long now would it ?

Bertuzzi did this in front of millions of people and his sentence was swift ... if the kid is up and around then good for him

You are upset that what ? ... Bertuzzi may get a longer sentence if the kid did not recover so quickly ? ... is this your whole point ?

Let's get this straight ... when 2 guys scrap on the ice there is intent to injure ... when Bertuzzi mugged this kid from behind with a sucker punch there was intent to injure ... when he pushed the kids face into the ice with all his weight behind it and still tries to get in another couple more sucker punches it shows that he is a coward and deserves to be held responsible if the injuries were more severe.

[whaase]

Perfectly said Steve! I think Bertuzzi still got off luckey.

Walter

[LostMind]

when he pushed the kids face into the ice with all his weight behind it

Man, I have heard people saying this in the news, but I saw the game and saw the replays and watched it all again and again. I saw bertuzzi hanging onto moore's jersey and falling on top of him.

bertuzzi was holding moore's jersey so he could fight him. As moore was out cold from the cheap shot bertuzzi threw, he fell. As moore fell, you could see the jersey in bertuzzi's glove - stretched out... if bertuzzi was throwing moore to the ice with all his power, the jersey would not have been stretched out and visible because bertuzzi's gloves would be on moore pushin/throwing him down.

I think bertuzzi took a real cheap shot at moore. I dont think bertuzzi drove moore's face into the ice with all his force. I do think bertuzzi got what he deserved IF he gets the suspension for the rest of the season and the playoffs. Any longer then that and I think it is being unfair.

I do think this incident is yet another argument for wearing proper face protection.

I also think the league needs to reveiw ref'ing.

I dont believe marc crawford is at fault. I do believe the league is at fault for allowing shitty tactics like this fly for the past ten years. The game has seriously deteriorated into a match of hooking/slashing/poking/cheapshots and become much slower and less exciting to watch.

But hey, thats just my opinion

[StirCrazy]

Let's get this straight ... when 2 guys scrap on the ice there is intent to injure ... when Bertuzzi mugged this kid from behind with a sucker punch there was intent to injure ... when he pushed the kids face into the ice with all his weight behind it and still tries to get in another couple more sucker punches it shows that he is a coward and deserves to be held responsible if the injuries were more severe.

see this is what I don't understand.. we are saying the same thing and yet you keep arguing with me.. i am merely adding that they should have either waited to make a ruling till Moore's status will be known for sure and suspended him pending a ruling, or give him the full ruling now instead of letting the media influence there judgment.

if you want to know exactly where I stand I would have given him a 2 year suspension with a review at that time for reinsertion back into the league. mcSorly got the same thing for his incident and although they were a little different the intent was the same.

Steve

[Buccaneer]

You are the one that said a murderer gets a more fair judgement ??? ... is that right ?

So because I dont agree with that statement I am arguing with you ? ... well sure I am cause what you said is BS ... we agree that the book should be thrown at Bertuzzi but out of the other side of your mouth you state that he is treated unfairly ??


What exactly is wrong with the league suspending him from this season for sure and reserving the right to upgrade the suspension pending the outcome of the recovery of the kid ?

PS ... did you read the other part of that post you cut/pasted ?

[DiscusZ]

The way Bertuzzi handled that show how gutless a person he is. Hockey has always been a Full Contact sport, and always will be. If you do not want to be check they should take up Ballet or something.

Tonight in the Calgary Sun they had some writeups, Bertuzzi is no Angel when it comes to this sort of thing, he has been suspended for "stupidity" in the past. He once kicked another player with his skates, has punched Referee's etc.


What he did I think is a little more worse than old McSorley clocking Brashear with his stick. These types of people have no place in hockey.

I watched that clip of Bertuzzi over and over, and it was premediated, it was planned. Even the coach was in on it, that $250,000 fine the Team got was nothing. Bertuzzi and May went out on a change (line match) (when Moore was on the ice), They never play together. That shows there was a vendetta going to be paid on that shift. Bertuzzi was skating around not even really following the puck, he know what he was going to do.

Personally what he got is not enough. If it ends up thar Moore does not play again, then that should be the end of Bertuzzi's career as well.


As for Naslund, his comment in the paper tonight mentioned something about not hitting certain players.. Like HELLO buddy this is hockey, its about checking etc.

here is a quote from Bertuzzi

The irony of it all is just two months ago, Bertuzzi called out Denis Gauthier for a comparatively tame open-ice bodycheck on Sami Salo, injuring the Canucks defenceman's knee at the 'Dome.

"That's not how you play hockey, that's dirt," snapped Bertuzzi.

"Playing hockey is hitting a guy clean, not going for knees and trying to hurt people like that.
What does he do attacks the guy from behind with a cowardly sucker punch.. imaging some on punching you while you are a sleep, your body is not prepared.


I hope Bertuzzi's career is over,. that was a deplorable act he commited and he should have the same fate as McSorely (and I am sure he will too have a criminal record and should miss 2004-2005 season as well.

Quote from above

I dont believe marc crawford is at fault. I do believe the league is at fault for allowing shitty tactics like this fly for the past ten years. The game has seriously deteriorated into a match of hooking/slashing/poking/cheapshots and become much slower and less exciting to watch.

Damn rights Crawford is also to blame, with all the stuff various Canuck players stated to the media that there was a bounty on Moore, Crawford could of told his players to leave it be, or fight Moore, and that if anyone did anything else there would be hell to pay. Crawford is definately at fault. Check the line change he did just before the said incident, Crawford sent Burtuzzi and May out on a Line match change (canucks had last line change).. come on folks we all know May and Bertuzzi never play on the same line, that proves Crawford knew what was going on.


Jim

[fishnut]

If someone on the street had assualted another person in the way Bertuzzi did, he'd be facing criminal charges.

Let's not excuse his actions because he was in a game.

The question is: will he be able to control himself in the future if he is allowed to play again, or will he injure another person ?

IMO, it is more important to protect players from serious injury, and set a healthy example for the kids watching their role models, than to minimize what happened.

If the whole team, the city , the province suffers, that's too bad, but don't exempt him from facing the consequences of his actions.

[Samw]

The way Bertuzzi handled that show how gutless a person he is.

I wouldn't call him gutless. He wanted to fight fair. The other guy didn't. Bert kept pulling on the guy's jersey to try to get him to turn around and face him and get into a fight. The other guy didn't because either he knows he'll get plummelled or he was following his coach's request to not engage in a fight and just finish the game. By calling him gutless, are you saying that you think Bertuzzi's too scared to take on the other guy? I'm not really a hockey fan but I was under the impression that Bertuzzi was one of the tougher, bigger guys in the league. I could be wrong.

[Samw]

If someone on the street had assualted another person in the way Bertuzzi did, he'd be facing criminal charges.



And if anyone bodychecked me on the street, they would also be facing criminal charges for bodily assault. Every hockey fight is also bodily assault. So basically, everyone should be facing charges in every game. I'm not saying that everyone shouldn't be charged, I'm just saying that if you want to equate real life to hockey, you have to be consistent and call all criminal acts as criminal.

[LostMind]

Hey Jim.

Mcsorley didnt get anything on his record. I forget exactly what went on there, but he basically got off scot free.

I also am still not convinced that marc crawford said go out their and injure moore. Just cant see it happening. Also cant say I have NEVER seen may and bertuzzi share a shift. And, I have never, ever heard of any NHL player saying there is a "bounty" on another players head. Thats ridiculous.

Moore is expected to make a full recovery. He was doing quite well at VGH the other night I was told by some people I know who work there.

I am unsure what Naslund said in the paper... but you dont take out the top scorers in the league. Why does every other top scorer get special treatment (and top scorers ALWAYS have) and Vancouver players get no respect and no calls?

Finally, I completely agree with SamW here. When a player suits up for a game, he/she accepts that they will face the possibility of a fight or other roughness. There is no reason for the police to press charges, let the league handle it.

[Buccaneer]

And, I have never, ever heard of any NHL player saying there is a "bounty" on another players head. Thats ridiculous.



You are right ... it IS ridiculous for a player to say there is a bounty on the head of another player ... the sad thing is that a Vancouver player DID in fact say that ... that is why Bettman and Campbell were at the next game between these 2 teams ... it was a tie game and nothing transpired.

This past game was a blowout and thus Bertuzzi figured he had nothing to lose ( except the rest of the season & playoffs as it turns out )

[UnderWorldAquatics]

I have to say that I agree with LostMinds statements, and also stick to my previous comments. The punch Bertuzi dished out was cheap, the fall was just that, a fall and the landing was bad. I never said that Bertuzi wasnt to blame, just that he is not the only one to blame... If the goverment(NHL) let people go around stabbing people(cheap shots) but said you cant kill them(serious injury), dont you think alot of ticked off people that got stabed(cheap shot) might stab(cheap shot) back and the result could go over the line, death(serious injury). The goverment(NHL) would not be doing their job...
The game as has been said, is not being run very well and the crap that players have been getting away with is only going to inspire more mob violence... I am a firm beliver that you are responsible for your own actions as is Bertuzi, on the same note, the leauge is doing a pee poor job of regulating the game like they are supposed to.

[Buccaneer]

when he pushed the kids face into the ice with all his weight behind it

Man, I have heard people saying this in the news, but I saw the game and saw the replays and watched it all again and again. I saw bertuzzi hanging onto moore's jersey and falling on top of him.

bertuzzi was holding moore's jersey so he could fight him. As moore was out cold from the cheap shot bertuzzi threw, he fell. As moore fell, you could see the jersey in bertuzzi's glove - stretched out... if bertuzzi was throwing moore to the ice with all his power, the jersey would not have been stretched out and visible because bertuzzi's gloves would be on moore pushin/throwing him down.

I think bertuzzi took a real cheap shot at moore. I dont think bertuzzi drove moore's face into the ice with all his force. I do think bertuzzi got what he deserved IF he gets the suspension for the rest of the season and the playoffs. Any longer then that and I think it is being unfair.

I do think this incident is yet another argument for wearing proper face protection.

I also think the league needs to reveiw ref'ing.

I dont believe marc crawford is at fault. I do believe the league is at fault for allowing shitty tactics like this fly for the past ten years. The game has seriously deteriorated into a match of hooking/slashing/poking/cheapshots and become much slower and less exciting to watch.

But hey, thats just my opinion

Want a link to the video so you can see it again ? ... after you went on and on that he did not push his face into the ice I thought a replay might jog the memory

http://www.9news.com/includes/buildasx.aspx?fn=4pmavs3-9-4.wmv&sp=http://bc1.liquidviewer.com/9newskusa/dotcom.wmv

[Samw]

I know Bertuzzi is everyone's public enemy #1 right now and that the post started with a comment that a family almost lost a son. But don't forget, some children almost lost their dad when Naslund was taken out with a harder hit to the head. No one wants to talk about that so called clean hit. What makes it clean anyways? Is it because its a hard shoulder that made contact instead of a gloved hand? Do you mean that if you try to knock someone out with your shoulder, then its not considered intentional even though you intended to injure that person? Do you mean that when someone goes to hit someone else in the head at full speed, they have no intent to injure whatsoever? Does this not make any sense to anyone else but me? :razz:

Although I would not like to be hit at all :smile: , I would rather take a sucker punch to my head with a gloved hand by someone who is skating in the same direction as me rather than an unexpected hard swing to my head with a hard stick (McSorley) or an unexpected hard shoulder to my head at 50mph (Moore on Naslund, 25mph in opposite directions) or an unexpected hard stick across my face at 50mph (Suter on Kariya, skating in opposite directions with additional velocity from the crosscheck). In each of those cases, not only would I be in more pain (and possibly kill me as I'm a small guy :smile: ), they were absolutely senseless. In Bert's case, he would not have done it in his regular game. As Underworld mention, this action was in retaliation for the abuse of his friend and he tried to dish out some justice. It may not right to take your own justice, but this sets it apart (although only slightly) from the other acts of goonery as he was only trying to do the honorable thing (retaliate against those who've dishonoured, abused, or injured members of your family)

I do agree that hockey is a violent sport and I wouldn't be surprised if it has a negative impact in some parts of society. I'm not trying to stir up the hornet's nest but I'm just trying to put some perspective for those who think Bertuzzi's act is the worst in history.

[Samw]

Want a link to the video so you can see it again ? ... after you went on and on that he did not push his face into the ice I thought a replay might jog the memory

http://www.9news.com/includes/buildasx.aspx?fn=4pmavs3-9-4.wmv&sp=http://bc1.liquidviewer.com/9newskusa/dotcom.wmv

Thanks for the link. I didn't watch the game but when I first saw the video after hearing about it, I was wondering what people were talking about when they said he was putting all his weight on the guy's head. The video isn't really conclusive. If I was going to put my weight on someone's head, I would lean towards the head. It seems more like all his weight was on the guy's back.

[UnderWorldAquatics]

I agree with SamW too, also as said Bertuzi's actions resulted in something bad and he is being punished for it, it is far from the wost thing that has happened in hockey, it is something that happens all the time and the result was worse in this case even though much harder hits have caused much less damage, they both got a bad break... if I was in his position I would have done things differently, I wouldnt have leveled Moore untill he turned and faced me....- he deserved to be leveled in my eyes because it is my opinion that Moore's hit on Naslund was as cheap as the come. with speed, and hard to the head.

by deserving to be leveled I dont mean that he deserved what happened, I mean he deserved to get punched in the face for his cheap hit

[LostMind]

Want a link to the video so you can see it again ? ... after you went on and on that he did not push his face into the ice I thought a replay might jog the memory

http://www.9news.com/includes/buildasx.aspx?fn=4pmavs3-9-4.wmv&sp=http://bc1.liquidviewer.com/9newskusa/dotcom.wmv

Funny, in Vancouver we saw that same play from the other side, which was a closer shot and didn't look so bad. I guess the colorado news channel wants a nastier looking clip to get better ratings.

But, even watching that clip, I dont see bertuzzi ramming moore's head into the ice. I do see bertuzzi going down on top of him.

Did you see the game and catch the other clip from the other angle? You might see what I saw then.

Regardless, we are all arguing over stupidity - everyone here is agreeing bertuzzi was at fault and should have never thrown that punch.

[DiscusZ]

Buck_n_neer > Definately looks like there was a downward push on Bertuzzi's part to me

I called him Gutless for the way he Bertuzzi handled the situation. a Big guy like that has to take the cheapest shot possible. Moore is not a stupid guy.. WHy fight someone bigger than you?!? Moore had already fought Cook after the Naslund incidient. That should of been the end of it right then and there, but NO Bertuzzi had to get into it later on. There is a hidden rule in Hockey, fights are sort of agreed on between the 2 people involve, if you dont want to fight you skake away, Moore did that, and that inferiated Bertuzzi who obviously took acception and hye boiled over.. (Maybe he's taking stereoids and that is why he has anger problems <GRIN>)

There was a bounty, it was said, there were clips from Vancouver players (bertuzzi, May, and the inferiated Crawford) saying all sorts of trash, and that they would get even

True there is roughness in the game, thats part of Hockey, always has been there. There are certain things that the police should be involved in, and thats where there is a deliberate attempt to injure another player. Body checking defaintely not that is what hockey is about. Hell look at football, rugby its the same thing, lots of body contact, its part of the game

As for the star players, a hit is a hit, there should be no "SPECIAL" rules for anyone, that rule is a "Gretzky" rule. that came into play because Wayne always complained about being touched. You take a look at any video clips befire Wayne was in the league and see how rought and tough was.

Samw => Justice? for what a Legal fair open ice hit? Naslund new he was caught with his head down and tried to avoid the hit, and got coldcocked, is that moores fault? No H had lined Naslund up for a hit. Its much like when Gauthier went knee on knee with a vancouver player, the guy ned he was going to get nailed and tried to move at the last minute and got injured. Injuries usually occur if the person tries to avoid the hit than actually taking the hit. Trust me I used to play hockey I know how it works and have seen it time and time again.



LostMind --> Well the shoe could be on the other foot. You say that the Avs showed the worst part of the hit. Maybe the media in Vancouver showed from a bad angle to minimize the actual facts. Some come off it I have seen the play from all angels and no matter how you slice it Bertuzzi was gutluss in sucker punching a defencless player who had no idea what was about to happen.

[Nemain]

Some come off it I have seen the play from all angels and no matter how you slice it Bertuzzi was gutluss in sucker punching a defencless player who had no idea what was about to happen.

Couldn't disagree more. He knew exactly why Betuzzi was hauling on his shirt like a 2 year old wanting an ice cream. Yes he was trying to avoid an altercation, but he certainly wasn't unawares as to the intent of Beruzzi. I am not saying it was right by any stretch, but lets not make him into Mother Theresa here.

Injuries usually occur if the person tries to avoid the hit than actually taking the hit. Trust me I used to play hockey I know how it works and have seen it time and time again.

Exactly my point.

Its Hockey, it doesn't matter if you like the violence inherit in it or not; the fact is that it is there. Can you take this incident and use it to complain about the system? Sure, but you cant blame him for acting within the system that he is accustomed to. He sees cheap hits all the time in this game, was in fact retaliating for one. Did he intend to cause him harm? YOU BET! Did he intend to injure him to the extent that he did? I personally don't think so.He is at the hight of his career, why would he throw it all away on a cheap shot.

He thought he would maybe convince the guy to take the gloves off, and at worst take a game suspension for a not so clean hit, if the three blind men even noticed his little dig.

He wanted a fight. I don't know about you all, but when I am digging for a fight and someone refuses, it just fuels me on even more.

It was an unclean hit with an unfortunate result. They are using him as an example to prevent and perhaps put a stop to this sort of garbage in the game. It isn't entirely right that the punishment is so stiff, but they have to start somewhere. I would expect people to be even more outraged if this sort of dirty hockey continues and goes unchecked.

[LostMind]

LostMind --> Well the shoe could be on the other foot. You say that the Avs showed the worst part of the hit. Maybe the media in Vancouver showed from a bad angle to minimize the actual facts. Some come off it I have seen the play from all angels and no matter how you slice it Bertuzzi was gutluss in sucker punching a defencless player who had no idea what was about to happen.

Sorry, I saw the replay during the game from the other angle. The networks involved had no time to edit it to make it look better or worse.

Again, as I said, its retarded to argue about this as we are all agreeing that Bertuzzi shouldn't have thrown that punch.

Just some of you are crying out that Bertuzzi should be dragged out back and shot. All I am saying is the way the game is played, ref'ed and run needs to be reviewed and adjusted. I also think Bertuzzi got what he deserved.

[AJ_77]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040311.whoust0312/BNStory/Sports/

As the NHL's image plunged to an all-time low, a USA Today sports columnist wished the league would just go away.
"It is a cartoon sport with a cult following that cheers from the fringe of relevance," Ian O'Connor wrote.

"Who among us would notice if, this autumn, we found ourselves surveying a sports landscape without major league hockey?" asked Christine Brennan, another USA Today columnist. "And how many of us would complain?"

Canadian broadcaster Don Chevrier was asked about the reaction in Florida, where he lives.

"The reaction here is one word," he said. "Disgust.

"It's really sad," continued Chevrier, who called hockey games for years. "I've lost all respect for the game."

Olympic producer Ralph Mellanby, who was the head of Hockey Night in Canada for 20 years and whose son Scott plays for the St. Louis Blues, lives in Atlanta.

He blames "Neanderthals" in the NHL's front office for the Bertuzzi incident, citing the league's leniency toward violent infractions and failure to punish players and coaches who make threats.

"It's the greatest game in the world being destroyed by the people who run it," Mellanby said. "There's no fighting in college hockey, no fighting at the world tournaments or the Olympics, and nobody misses it. But these cement heads at the NHL don't get it." Unless the game changes, Mellanby said, the NHL is doomed in the United States to permanent third-class status.

"Down here, hockey is on a par with pro wrestling and roller derby," he said. "Stuff like that."

No argument from Bernie Lincicome, a columnist with the Rocky Mountain News in Denver.

"This is what hockey wants to be," he wrote this week. "This is why hockey is a boutique sport, like cockfighting and bear baiting."

[DiscusZ]

Hey Jim.

Mcsorley didnt get anything on his record. I forget exactly what went on there, but he basically got off scot free.


Yes McSoreley was found guilty of Assaulting Brashear, and thus would have an assault charge on his record.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nhl/news/2000/10/06/mcsorley_assault_ap/

[Samw]

AJ, the reason why the league doesn't go away is probably because (as sad as this may seem) the demand for this product is high. These guys are paid tens of millions of dollars from the pockets of the fans. Comparing it with pro wrestling and roller derby is way off base if the point they are making is uncontrolled violence. In pro wrestling, the conflict and violence is staged and the combants don't try to intentionally hurt each other. What I mean to say is that wrestling is tame compared to hockey. Hockey is closer to Ultimate Fighting.

[AJ_77]

Hockey has undeniable appeal as a skill sport, and fans just happen to like boxing and wrestling as well. Our fault.

Bring back the Oilers-style hockey of the 80's and watch popularity skyrocket, and not just in our own little showcase.

Not being nostalgic for nostalgia's sake here, just acknowledging that the game has something to offer, something that Don Cherry seems to have difficulty connecting with.

It's a great game when its not goony, and clutchy, and chippy...

[Buccaneer]

So here is a solution ... do away with the center line and insert automatic icing and ban fighting ... this would be with the skill of these players a unbelievable sport to watch ... even bring back the glowing puck for the americans so they can follow the game :razz:

PS ... face guards should be mandatory

[mpishi]

would this whole stupid mess even be discussed if moore was not seriously hurt?

next time you watch a game, count the number of guys who get popped in the back of the head, or face washed from behind, speared, or ride a butt end down the boards

crosschecking is getting to be a legal way of clearing offensive players out of the slot

big as he is i think bertuzzi got in a lucky shot that knocked moore out leading to a face plant and pile on that just added to the injuries

if the league was serious about improving the game they wouldn't tease us every year about cracking down on stick work

imo the suter-kariya and hunter-turgeon were worse

[StirCrazy]

So here is a solution ... do away with the center line

and how would this stop goons?

Steve

[LostMind]

So here is a solution ... do away with the center line

and how would this stop goons?

Steve

It wouldnt, it would just make the game faster paced and more exciting for the fan.

[LostMind]

AJ's post from the globe echoes what I have been saying.

Sure, bertuzzi is to blame for throwing the punch, but the game itself needs to be revamped because the people running the game have allowed the game to turn into what it is now.

Perhaps those professional writers put the thought into words more effectively then I did :biggrin:

[StirCrazy]

So here is a solution ... do away with the center line

and how would this stop goons?

Steve

It wouldnt, it would just make the game faster paced and more exciting for the fan.

ya but it would lend its self to a lot of goal sucking.. I like the two line pass rule and I think to preserve it you need to keep the center line. if you look at the Oilers in the 80's they were a very fast paced game.

I do like the step there going next year by moving the net forward again and not letting the goalie play the puck. I think the golies playing the puck is being used way to much because they are untouchable and it realy slows down the game.

Steve

[Buccaneer]

So here is a solution ... do away with the center line

and how would this stop goons?

Steve

It wouldnt, it would just make the game faster paced and more exciting for the fan.

ya but it would lend its self to a lot of goal sucking..

Steve

Well the trap took care of that the high flying teams of the 80's did'nt it ? :rolleyes: ... and wtf is goal sucking ? ... if it means a higher scoring and more exciting game where skill players are allowed to showcase their talents instead of resorting to being " goons " then I am all for it ... if Bertuzzi had to think twice as to the consequences of his actions he would not be in the situation he is in right now and the league would be the better for it

[LostMind]

if Bertuzzi had to think twice as to the consequences of his actions he would not be in the situation he is in right now and the league would be the better for it

WHOO! You do agree with me! :)

[DiscusZ]

Well I have to say one thing.. LACROSSE, that game has alot of Stick work. Again I played this game as well <grin> it is alot more rough than hockey will ever be.


Jim

[mutabaruka]

my 2 cents worth ...... the Bertuzzi incident, like so many others, is an extension of what happens in the league everyday. Situations like this one are fostered, or at the least tacitly allowed because of the belief that it garners ratings. The Slapshot crowd in the states loves to see barely restrained violence. The problem is sooner or later someone loses control and someone gets seriously hurt. That Bertuzzi did not intend to hurt Moore this bad is not the issue. The league needs to stop all extracurricular stuff by punishing it severely and immediately. Hockey is an art form when played properly. When it is played like it is now ... it merely disgusts me. I like Todd Bertuzzi, he plays with heart; emotion and passion make him a star. Unfortunately he does not know how to control his emotions. In a game that is played at high speed, in close quarters with high emotions, control is vital. Suspending him as long as the league did was necessary. It does not hurt Vancouver sports fans as someone suggested .. because, it has no place in the game. How would the league look if Bertuzzi played a pivotal role in the playoffs, perhaps in a Vancouver/Colorado series? This crap has to stop, along with all the stick work, fighting, and cheap shots that happen everyday and don't result in injuries or media coverage like this one did.

[StirCrazy]

and wtf is goal sucking ?

it means you are going to have people hanging out at the opposing teams blue line waiting for a pass from his own red line so he can have a breakaway. because of this you will see defense start to stay back to wards there own end instead of playing in the opposing teams end zone. didn't you ever play street hockey man and you call yourself an Albertian :mrgreen:

seriously though the two line pass rule was made to prevent exactly what I described.

Steve

[AJ_77]

and wtf is goal sucking ?

cherry-pickin...

:rolleyes:

:razz: