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View Full Version : Deep water biotope list.. suggestions???


DJ88
07-06-2002, 07:35 PM
Well, well, well. now that I have the 45 up and running happily.. I am bored..

Soo since I have a 20 here ready to go and I have all the parts n pieces I need. Time to set up a biotope. Looking at a deep water indo-pacific setup.

Here is my possibilities for fish.

Serranocirrhitus latus, Fathead or sunburst anthias.
Anthias link (http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Serranocirrhitus&speciesname=latus)

Nemateleotris decora, Elegant firefish
Firefish link (http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=6616&genusname=Nemateleotris&speciesname=decora)

Pterapogon kauderni, Banggai cardinal

Banggai link (http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Pterapogon&speciesname=kauderni)
Banggai link (http://breeders-registry.gen.ca.us/Articles/v4_i4_marini/marini.htm)

Pseudochromis porphyreus, Magenta dottyback

dottyback link (http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=7461&genusname=Pseudochromis&speciesname=porphyreus)

As for corals it will also be various Indo Pacific corals. Obvioulsy lower light requiring corals, mushrooms, zooanthids etc.

Lighting will be 3 20W phillips 03's on an Icecap or workhorse and one 75W aquasun VHO on a workhorse 3. Skimmer a PM HOT-1. MJ-1200's, 900's and an Aquaclear 500 for circ.

Any suggestions are welcome.

smokinreefer
07-06-2002, 07:49 PM
my vote is for a mushroom tank with sunburst anthias!!!

i have always wanted a set up like that.

ldzielak
07-06-2002, 08:00 PM
My Vote:

Dottyback(s) maybe get a pair and localy raise more for the rest of us, sounds like it could keep you busy....

Throw in a single Cardinal, they are calm and cool.

Lee

Troy F
07-06-2002, 08:40 PM
Darren, just a thought; if you were to go with a dart fish, why not go with the deep water Nemateleotris helfrichi. They are a deep water version of N. decora. Not that there's much of difference (except price) but you'd get an A+ for authenticity smile.gif .

PS: Being that you've had all of a month since you had your tank up, you could be setting a new record for the truly obsessed. You may have a problem. A.A. (Aquariums Anonymous) could be the answer for you.

naesco
07-06-2002, 08:43 PM
If you go real deep and dark (cool tank) how about a pinecone fish.
It would really limit the other fish and coral though

DJ88
07-06-2002, 09:04 PM
Shao,

I am leaning that way so far.. but..

Lee,

I'd love to breed dottybacks. Don't want anymore tanks tho. lol Or all the food requirements. I wonder how difficult it would be tho.

Troy,

I saw those and thought that same thing. I wonder how much one of those would be.. smile.gif Time to call. $120 - 225 US at stores I have found online.. :eek: :eek:

You saved your second comment for here didn't ya? Couldn't say it on the phone.. lol

Naesco,

man o man.. Good idea.. 22cm long tho. Don't think the 20 gallon is big enough.. Hmm gonna go read more on those guys. smile.gif $350 US at marine depot. :eek: :eek:

Thanks all. smile.gif

[ 06 July 2002, 17:16: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

Dale D
07-06-2002, 11:41 PM
Deep water tank? Hmmmmm.....

I vote for something from the genus Architeuthis. :cool:

You may need a bigger tank, (possibliy a 33) and they are known to be a bit predatory. ;)

But, you would be the first one on the block to own one. :D

DJ88
07-07-2002, 04:06 AM
Methinks I'll need summtin bigger than a 33 for a squid that size Dale. lol

thanks anyway.. :D

PS did you get anything interesting in?

[ 07 July 2002, 00:06: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

Aquattro
07-07-2002, 04:29 AM
Darren, I understand though, that they're playful if you get in the tank with them. Just don't mix with sperm whales...they don't get along all that well. I'd go at least a 50g for one of them!!

DJ88
07-07-2002, 04:32 AM
I think another 45 coube would be perfect.. Fit like a glove.. ;)

Aquattro
07-07-2002, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by DJ88:
I think another 45 coube would be perfect.. Fit like a glove.. ;) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's the thing with those squids...you can squish them into any shape and size (almost) :D

DJ88
07-07-2002, 04:38 AM
lol..

so what do you think about the list? any suggestions. Looking for Indo pacific deep water. Which tosses out the basslets. Looks like the Anthias is my choice so far. Maybe with a firefish as well. Two in a 20 should be ok

Tho with the numbers I got today on that workhorse 6 I am thinking I may go with an SPS tank and a pair VHO's putting out a PAR of 499. :D ;) Four of those and I bet there isn't much I cant keep. ;)

Aquattro
07-07-2002, 04:40 AM
I'd have to concur with the anthias/shroom tank. That would be my choice!

DJ88
07-07-2002, 04:42 AM
That is what I was thinking too. run all actinics. maybe one 50/50. keep it as blue as possible..

Aquattro
07-07-2002, 04:44 AM
You'd want the one 50/50 just to see the colors of the shrooms. All actinic would take away, I think. Even a lower wattage daylight or something just to give a bit of white light

DJ88
07-07-2002, 04:45 AM
I know.. fit a 28W PC or two in behind the actinics so some light makes it through.

SuperFudge
07-07-2002, 05:39 PM
Darren,

I spoke to Dale,he is looking into their availability list for you.

Do the Pinecone!! :D

Marc.

Troy F
07-07-2002, 05:47 PM
Darren, just aquascaped my tank and I have quite a bit of live rock left over that I've moved to my sump for now. I may still use a piece or two but I should have some you can use.

DJ88
07-07-2002, 07:44 PM
Thanks Troy.. Appreciate it. smile.gif

Marc,

Thanks to you too. I know Dale will be honest about what he finds.. Man a pinecone fish would be sweeet. Or an angler for that matter. ;)

Troy F
07-07-2002, 08:10 PM
Well I know you already have plenty of ideas but one more won't hurt. I did some reading last night on the Antennariidae, (frog fishes) and I am blown away by these little fellas. My favourite since you asked is Antennarius pictus; the painted frogfish. They are found from shallow to deep water and grow to 4" max.

DJ88
07-07-2002, 08:21 PM
Great suggestion Troy. here is one of my fav's.
Histrio Histrio.. sargassum frogfish (http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=3089&genusname=Histrio&speciesname=histrio)

Talked to John and it is difficult to specify which one you want. They just get them sent. Tho this is an interesting option. smile.gif

Dale D
07-08-2002, 03:15 AM
Darren

I spoke to Mike today and he said he can get Pinecone fish in. They are on a list that he has now. He was going to check on price and let me know.

Frogfish are very cool fish. We have brought a few in for customer. We just had a warty frogfish in the store for a customer last week. It had a very nice gray and black pattern on it.

The orange or red ones would be nice to have, if you could find one and you could afford to buy one. $$$$ :(

DJ88
07-08-2002, 03:16 AM
Thanks Dale.. smile.gif

I appreciate it all. smile.gif Let me know on a pinecone and a frogfish.. smile.gif Anglers are soooo cool. :D

[ 07 July 2002, 23:19: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

Aquattro
07-08-2002, 03:21 AM
Darren, ever give thought to a cold water tank? I could collect a whole bunch of stuff for you for free!!!

DJ88
07-08-2002, 03:27 AM
if I had a chiller I'd go shopping myself.. smile.gif

have thought about it.. many times...

ldzielak
07-08-2002, 03:31 AM
Brad,
I was/have been thinking of, cold water too. But you would need double walled tanks to keep it from swetting too much. You would be best off, enclosing 3 sides with insulation. Just think you could have prawns any time!!

Lee

Aquattro
07-08-2002, 03:33 AM
Acrylic works well for this without the need for double walls

EmilyB
07-08-2002, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by Reef_Raf:
Darren, ever give thought to a cold water tank? I could collect a whole bunch of stuff for you for free!!!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Have you done that out there Brad ? I still remember our holiday in Tofino, and I gathered all this cool rock that washed up to bring home. Did twice daily water changes etc...... I really wanted to try a cold tank.

Then, the day we left, the red tide warning. The image of hubby chucking those rocks back will remain with me forever.. :D

Aquattro
07-08-2002, 03:48 AM
Deb, when I was in college I worked for the biology department taking care of the cold water tanks. We'd collect stuff from the shores here and divers would also get us stuff.
I'll never forget the octopus crawling away down the corridor!!
Some of the most colorful things I've seen come from down the street!!

EmilyB
07-08-2002, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by Reef_Raf:

Some of the most colorful things I've seen come from down the street!!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Someone I know is taking a diving course and was told about the coast and what it had to offer. Wish I could swim... ;)

ldzielak
07-08-2002, 06:16 AM
I know acrylic has better properties than glass, but every crab tank I have seen in restaurants (not good examples I know) have condesation on the outer surface. I know a reef tank would be much thicker and offer better insulation, but would it be enough? What filter system did you use in you studies? I have been mostly thinking og the chiller needs. I will attempt this when I get my own house. I figure a 120g minimum would make it worth while. Just think how easy/cheap the water changes could be (gas for the truck to the beach and back...)

Darren I know this is a little off topic from your original, if others would further like to discuss cold water, lets start and new thread.

Lee

[ 08 July 2002, 02:18: Message edited by: Lee ]

choglund
07-09-2002, 04:54 AM
Frog Fish Frog Fish Frog Fish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DJ88
07-09-2002, 06:45 PM
Well another possibility is some of the Centropyge angels. Some seem to go down as deep as 40-50m plus. hmmm.. a unique angel.. :D I like that thought.. maybe an aurantius or colini..

[ 09 July 2002, 15:27: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

Troy F
07-10-2002, 12:27 AM
I'd shy away from an angel even Centropyge spp. in that size of tank. I think you'd find it pacing.

DJ88
07-10-2002, 02:28 AM
Troy,

Yeah you are probably right. Even the small 9 cm ones I was interested in might be too active for a 20.

Well decision made.. Serranocirrhitus latus it is. And I am not going to put mushrooms in as of yet. The coral decision will come on a few months when the tank is stable.

In the mean time I'll be keeping my eyes open to suggestions. Any thoughts or ideas are welcome.

Dale D
07-10-2002, 02:53 AM
Hey

How about a peppermint angel (Centropyge boylei)( I think that is it, isn't it?) Surely, you most be able to get one now for under $10,000. :D

We've had a Centropyge aurantius in the reef tank in Chilliwack for about a year now. It's a beautiful fish, but, you don't get to see much of it. Maybe in a lower light tank it would show it's self more.

DJ88
07-10-2002, 02:57 AM
Yeah Dale.. boylei is it.. gorgeous litle thing isn't it.. If I could afford one of those things I wouldn'tbe doing a 20 gal deep water tank. lol

The aurantius is the one I really wanted.. I saw one at J&L and fell in love with it. Tiny little thing. sigh..

DJ88
07-10-2002, 05:16 PM
You want to simulate a deep water environment in a 20g tank? You want to keep a species that typically lives in deeper water, hence has a physiology specifically adapted for deep water pressures, yet are content to keep this same species in 12" of water for the rest of it's life? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The species I am looking at keeping are ones found at depths of 1m to 100 m. I am NOT looking to keep species that are EXCLUSIVELY found in a deep water biotope. Just one that would be found on a reef wall, in caves or dimly lit areas.

As I remember it you have or had several deep water reef wall species in your tank.

Royal Gramma. 1-60m Often found in caves or under ledges

Falme Angel. 2 - 57 m. surge zone to a depth of 57 m . Secretive and stays near shelter

These are similar species as to what I am looking at keeping. I just want to see them in a more NATURAL setting. The two speieces that I jsut mentioned display different behaviors when put into a proper environment. My gramma becomes a completely different fish when the MH goes off. It is out hovering in front of its cave as it would in the wild. Not hiding from the light. Before you go and slam me for wanting to provide a natural setting for my fish shouldn't you look at your own tank before hand?

I am spending hours and hours researching each and every possibility for this system. Ensuring that what I get is naturally found in that area of a reef. And is a species that will exist in a tank of that size. Want me to get into fish in a tank? And what belongs where???

For example, it would be cool to have a shark in my 100g tank, but it's certainly not something I would do.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are comparing my wanting to provide a natural environment for a secretive often solitary peacful fish to a shark in a tank???? Give me a break...

When I say deep water I am talking 20-50m TOPS. The depths at which the lighting visible is blue. Not the brilliant white blinding you see at the reef crest. You dive you should know that you don't have to go far for it to get dark.. what are you thinking? that I want to keep fish that soely reside below 100m????? Read the links I posted. most of these fish are found THROUGHOUT the reef. ie. up near the surface. NOt exclusively at the bottom of the ocean.

Do you even understand the differences between the various zones of a reef??? Did you bother to look those things up before your offhanded quips???

pffft...

thanks for the addition of your valuable information.. :rolleyes: :mad:

[ 10 July 2002, 13:20: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

George
07-10-2002, 05:39 PM
Chill Darren, I think Andrew raised a valid concern.

George

Troy F
07-10-2002, 06:01 PM
I agree George let's relax, maybe the heat is getting to us. However, Andrew's concern, though well meaning is way off base. The vast majority of the fish we keep are found significantly deeper than any of our tanks allow. Would it be better if Darren said "dimly lit tank"? That may clarify things. Let's remember we're all friends here (I'm an exception, I'm a miserable pr--k in real life too).

naesco
07-10-2002, 11:55 PM
yeah I assummed cooler water and a dimmly lit tank as opposed to what we all keep.
I hear that real deep critters are really expensive.

canadawest
07-11-2002, 04:42 AM
Help me for I am confused.... :confused:

You want to simulate a deep water environment in a 20g tank? You want to keep a species that typically lives in deeper water, hence has a physiology specifically adapted for deep water pressures, yet are content to keep this same species in 12" of water for the rest of it's life? Just because we put blue lights above the tank to make it "look" like deep water doesn't mean that it is deep water.

C'mon Darren, of the reefkeepers here I always percieved you as having a great respect and care for their livestock. This idea, albiet "cool" doesn't make sense to me.

For example, it would be "cool" to have a shark in my 100g tank, but it's certainly not something I would do.

[ 10 July 2002, 12:58: Message edited by: canadawest ]

canadawest
07-11-2002, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by EmilyB:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Reef_Raf:

Some of the most colorful things I've seen come from down the street!!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Someone I know is taking a diving course and was told about the coast and what it had to offer. Wish I could swim... ;) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess that's why I keep a tropical species and reef tank as opposed to a cold water tank. I can go diving anytime in our local waters and see the marvels our "emerald sea" has to offer in it's natural environment. I don't often get to go to tropical locations and dive so I enjoy having a tiny piece of those oceans in my home. ;)

[ 10 July 2002, 12:46: Message edited by: canadawest ]

zulu_principle
07-11-2002, 04:49 AM
What kind of stuff would you do in a Pacific Northwest aquarium.

I think it would be fun and after the September I have a 1/5 horse chiller that always looks for work.....

Zulu

canadawest
07-11-2002, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by zulu_principle:
What kind of stuff would you do in a Pacific Northwest aquarium.

I think it would be fun and after the September I have a 1/5 horse chiller that always looks for work.....

Zulu<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Take a visit to the Vancouver Public Aquarium sometime Zulu. They have an entire section devoted to Pacific Northwest waters. I haven't been for a couple years, but it was pretty interesting then and I suspect as good or better now.

When diving, I particularly enjoy the Moray Eels, large shrimp and crabs, plumous anemones and many different fish. I also like the seals, but I'm not sure how big of a tank I would need to keep a breeding pair? tongue.gif

canadawest
07-11-2002, 06:15 AM
The species I am looking at keeping are ones found at depths of 1m to 100 m. I am NOT looking to keep species that are EXCLUSIVELY found in a deep water biotope. Just one that would be found on a reef wall, in caves or dimly lit areas.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I stand clarified in that your species selection is not "exclusive" to deeper depths, but rather species that live in a varied depth.

But with that said, most species of underwater animal have the ability to dive and live at much deeper depths than they are typically found, it's just they don't. For example Tangs are found at depths up to 50 meters, but can dive deeper if necessary.

As I remember it you have or had several deep water reef wall species in your tank.

Royal Gramma. 1-60m Often found in caves or under ledges

Falme Angel. 2 - 57 m. surge zone to a depth of 57 m . Secretive and stays near shelter

These are similar species as to what I am looking at keeping. I just want to see them in a more NATURAL setting. The two speieces that I jsut mentioned display different behaviors when put into a proper environment. My gramma becomes a completely different fish when the MH goes off. It is out hovering in front of its cave as it would in the wild. Not hiding from the light. Before you go and slam me for wanting to provide a natural setting for my fish shouldn't you look at your own tank before hand?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, while I do have a Royal Gramma in my tank, I would consider neither of the above mentioned species "deep water" species, as "deep water species" typically refers to species found at a depth of 300m or greater.

I interpreted your desire of a "deep water species" tank to mean that you were interested in recreating an environment for species that would be typically found ONLY in deep water, an environment which obviously would be impossible to recreate for us hobbiests. Again, I stand corrected in interpreting your intention.

So perhaps it should be said you desire to create an environment that "looks" like deep water, as opposed to a "deep water species tank". I am not silly enough to have thought you would keep a species that is exclusively found in deeper waters in a home aquarium, but I still think the description of the project should not include "deep water species" but rather deep water appearance. Perhaps it is all just symantecs, but "deep water" has no place for discussion in our home aquaria. :rolleyes:


When I say deep water I am talking 20-50m TOPS. The depths at which the lighting visible is blue. Not the brilliant white blinding you see at the reef crest. You dive you should know that you don't have to go far for it to get dark.. what are you thinking? that I want to keep fish that soely reside below 100m????? Read the links I posted. most of these fish are found THROUGHOUT the reef. ie. up near the surface. NOt exclusively at the bottom of the ocean.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, 20-50m would still be considered shallow water, and a region where I would hazzard a guess that 90% of the fish available in the hobby could be found residing.


Do you even understand the differences between the various zones of a reef??? Did you bother to look those things up before your offhanded quips???

pffft...

thanks for the addition of your valuable information.. :rolleyes: :mad: <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No comment necessary on these points, as I'm sure you were frustrated when writing it. ;)

Diomedes
07-12-2002, 04:59 AM
Hey Darren, why are you even responding to this stuff? A "deep water" fish that is properly decompressed upon capture?! (ask Richard Pyle if this is even necessary) is not negatively impacted by the fact that our tanks are much shallower than the ocean. Hmmmm think about it, there is no fish that can be pidgeonholed into a certain depth range EXCLUSIVELY. Fish travel freely up and down in the water column effortlessly. The pressure is not a huge factor. Pressure is a huge factor when humans venture under water, because of our sinuses, lungs, and ear cavities. So obviously humans think that fish also suffer underwater in different pressure strata. They don't. The factors that dictate where a fish is found in the water column are Food, Competition, Predation etc. Not Pressure. If anyone needs verification on that they can start emailing other marine biologists and ask them how much pressure determines a fishes location on a reef. The fish you are describing don't have lungs etc., so blue light, proper rock and temperatures etc. are an excellent simulation of their natural environment. They don't notice the pressure change any more than I do when I drive up to SFU. They acclimate to it instantly and naturally.
Your tank sounds like a lot of fun....I bought a Serranocirrhitis latus from JL's and it is my second favourite fish in my reef...it is a masterpiece!! He is a little addicted to brine shrimp right now, so I am using up a lot of Selc. but I will continue to try more and more foods until I find somthing else he likes.
I was thinking, why don't you make a 'neptheid tank instead of the mushrooms? Get a range of ahermatypic Dendro and Scleroneptheid frags. This would be truly magnificent.

Stephen

PS- Pineapple fish are cold water (CHILLER$$$) species, no?